The true costs of war

[goingslow]

And if they didnt join up they'd be drafting people like you if you're even american.

Adrian you keep putting your propaganda up in every thread why not leave it to other topics now?  Ive seen you do at least three of them in order to put your views on everyone.  You dont care who you insult you dont care that many people here have family or friends who might die.

You think if no one enlisted then bush wouldnt have his war?  No they'd get people there so instead of feeling so sorry for the people in iraq while saying basically the soldiers did it to themselves you should be thankful.

Stop complaining and stop putting propaganda everywhere already its getting old.  Most dont come here to read your anti war sentiments but definitely not your anti military sentiments.  Why not go to iraq and act as a shield.?  Im sure all those iraqis you love so much will love you right back.

Im so sick of some of the self righteous bovine excrement on this thread where so many people have the luxury of sitting at a computer 5 hours a day, and enjoy their freedom of speach while spitting on those who ensure it.  

Im grateful someone is out there enlisted.. and those of you americans should be as well.  Because dont think bush wouldnt have this war anyway.. the draft would just be in place.

[goingslow]

I obviously dont speak for anyone but myself and im sure people will be so insulted i was rude.  But stop whining already and if you're so against war do something.

Know how many people who didnt feel like whining anymore are over in iraq acting as shields?  Go do that.. do something but stop crying already.  I personally am getting sick of hearing you and frank whine on every war thread about how people are killing their brothers and sisters.  
If it bothers you that much do something about it.  Just please stop whining.

I should have packaged that in fluff im sure but you're a mod here and all you're doing is trying to stir up controversy on a subject that many feel personal about.  Maybe if you had family there you'd realize a different perspective. Or maybe if there weren't so many others who were willing to fight for your protections  that would give you a more balanced view.

[Adrian]

Greetings goingslow,

Thank you very much for your comments.

quote:Originally posted by goingslow

And if they didnt join up they'd be drafting people like you if you're even american.

There is no way Bush would be having his war is he had no full time miltary. You can't drag people off the streets and put them in the cockpit of an F16 or at the helm of a ship, or on a cruise missile lancher control. Apart from that, how much support do you think Bush would get if he tried to force people away from their families to risk their lives on the name of continued oil supplies? There would be a state of anarchy.

quote:
Adrian you keep putting your propaganda up in every thread why not leave it to other topics now?  Ive seen you do at least three of them in order to put your views on everyone.  You dont care who you insult you dont care that many people here have family or friends who might die.

I am stating what I firmly believe to be the truth, whether people agree or not is entirely a matter for each individual.

quote:
You think if no one enlisted then bush wouldnt have his war?

That is correct - he wouldn't.

quote:
Im so sick of some of the self righteous bovine excrement on this thread where so many people have the luxury of sitting at a computer 5 hours a day, and enjoy their freedom of speach while spitting on those who ensure it.  

You are under absolutely no obligation to read these threads, or indeed these forums if you don't want to. And furthermore, you have no idea what people do with their time. Actually, I spend a good amount of my own time operating and managing these forums.

The fact is - my views are vindicated by the increasingly fewer wars we are seeing as the decades go by. You look at the situation just 50 or 100 years ago. Look at how much peace has arrived in many regions of the world, and at the hands of the people who occupy those regions.

The USA is self proclaimed as the worlds only "super power", and Bush at least has every intention of wielding that miltary might, at whatever cost in human terms and suffering, (not that he thinks in those terms) and notwithstanding the fact that all of the money spent would be far better deployed in positive actions of a humanitarian kind in the parts of the world that really need it.

The people to deal with the situation in Iraq are the Iraqi people. Just as has happened in many parts of the world including the communist block. Look at Russia and China - compare them and the living standards of their populations from just 20 years ago. It didn't take the USA and their allies to bring this situation about - the countries sorted it all out for themselves - just as Iraq could have done. The main problem is Saddam Hussein, and Iraq has alot of people living there.

China will become much more powerful than the USA in the next decade or so - let's just hope that they don't follow Bush's example.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Nerezza]

Know how many people who didnt feel like whining anymore are over in iraq acting as shields?

Last I heard they left when Saddam told them to guard military installations, and that they may actually have to die.

[MJ-12]

gw

[Adrian]

Greetings,

quote:Originally posted by MJ-12
The phrase "I was only following orders" is meaningless. If your military drops a cruise missle in an unjust war on some Iraqi family then that's a war crime.

This is very important. We are advised from the higher spheres that "following orders" is no excuse for hostility, or worse still killing of brothers and sisters of mankind. The Karmic consequences exist and will have to be paid either in this lifetime or a future one.

Again, people are only ordered to do these things because they used their own freewill to join the military and knowingly place themselves in that situation. It is a conscious act, where the likely consequences are known.

Defending "what is right" is totally erroneous in accordance with Universal laws. Only the Divine Providence, being perfection, knows what is right, and temporal interests in all eternity are not right.

If you kill, or are a party to killing, the price will have to be paid. If all humanity knew and understood these truths, along with all truths, and the significance of progression, the world would bethe peaceful, place it was intended to be - the biblical "heaven on earth" which mankind is here to build.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Anonymous]

I don't trust the American government. Not one bit. It seems like everything they do is for an ultierior motive. There are some real evil geniuses at work behind the scenes, in the Pentagon, the White House, and the Capital Building. They infest congress, the presidency, law enforcement, and covert organizations. How do you think Bush got into office in the first place? What was that whole thing with Ken Starr and Clinton? Actually, it's more the Republican party I don't trust. I think many of them are a bunch of capitalist pigs who care nothing about the benefit of others. They care only about themselves and the money they make, and about their power and control over others to make sure that NOBODY takes it away from them. That's all that matters to them. They serve only Mammon, not God. They are incarnates of greed (is that an exaggeration? Oh well, I'm on a roll). Their right-wing "Christian" attitude isn't fooling anyone. What I despise most about them is how they take a good religion like Christianity and use it to manipulate people into supporting terrible things. It's too bad our culture is so easily swayed. The minds of people are very malleable.

Ahem... I think it's time for us to take action. The only government I will recognize from now on is me. I govern myself. I don't need laws or people telling me what to do. It is up to me to make something of myself, it is up to me to protect myself. It is up to me to serve mankind the best way I can. I'm sick of trying to fit in. I've wasted enough time and energy with that. I don't care what others think. Our culture is disposable and materialistic. All we do is take one thing that's sacred, market it, turn it into a product, and benefit financially from it until it no longer brings us money because everyone has gotten sick of it. Then we move on to another sacred thing, and so on. And people are okay with it. Our culture promotes greed, sex, all of the seven deadly sins, and violence.

Sorry for all the whining. I'm hoping someone will point me in the right direction for taking action. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

[Adrian]

Greetings Enderwiggin!

quote:Originally posted by EnderWiggin
Their right-wing "Christian" attitude isn't fooling anyone. What I despise most about them is how they take a good religion like Christianity and use it to manipulate people into supporting terrible things.

I fear that is a characteristic of many religions. The Islamic fundamentalists for example who believe that they will become "martyrs" and go to "paradise" if they die for their religion - e.g. like those who hijacked the 9/11 planes, and many of those on suicide missions in Iraq, Israel and elswhere.

Religions in general are often used by governments to control the masses, through fear of going to whatever their equivalent of "hell" is, and as a basis for the so called laws of their lands. The laws for example that treat females so apallingly - especially in some Islamic countries.

The most ironic aspect about Bush is that he is a "born again christian". From the Gospel of St. John, where I assume these "born agains" refer: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. This does not mean, believe in Jesus, go to church, read the bible and be instantly forgiven and saved. "born again" is symbolically represents the breaking free from the shackles of materialism and physical existence, finding the sacred purpose in Spiritual truths, living life in the Spirit accordingly, constantly striving for perfection, and Spiritual ascent to the ever higher levels of the spheres, which become ever lighter, more peaceful, blissful and beautiful, with Love being the ever stronger force. Only when man/woman is "born again" into this reality, which can take very many lifetimes, can we pursue our true, eternal and sacred purpose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Nerezza]

quote:Originally posted by Adrian

The most ironic aspect about Bush is that he is a "born again christian". From the Gospel of St. John, where I assume these "born agains" refer: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. This does not mean, believe in Jesus, go to church, read the bible and be instantly forgiven and saved. "born again" is symbolically represents the breaking free from the shackles of materialism and physical existence, finding the sacred purpose in Spiritual truths, living life in the Spirit accordingly, constantly striving for perfection, and Spiritual ascent to the ever higher levels of the spheres, which become ever lighter, more peaceful, blissful and beautiful, with Love being the ever stronger force. Only when man/woman is "born again" into this reality, which can take very many lifetimes, can we pursue our true, eternal and sacred purpose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Very nice Adrian. I have been told that because I am a Catholic, born and raised, I'm not born again so therefore Im no better than devil worshippers and murderers. From what I understand, you can only get to heaven if your in a denomination that sprung up during the 19th century and originated in the southern united states. And imagine the anger in there eyes when I say I don't believe in a rapture!

As for the term born again, I've always believed that passage is simply referring to the fact that there were very few christians at the start of the work of the apostles, therefore pretty much everyone on earth at the time would, by definition, be born again into the christian faith. The bible has to be while keeping in context the time in which it was written.

As for the war:

"50 million people have been killed since peace began in 1945."
-John Keegan

Now back to Battlefield 1942.

[Adrian]

Dear Timeless,

A truly excellent message, and with very considerable wisdom from beginning to end.

There are some important messages. One I would draw attention to is the matter of "ritual". Attending church, and acting out all of the trappings, creed and dogma of religion, and in particular at a church every Sunday, is "ritual". This kind of ritual is performed in blind faith, and often in the hope of buying a ticket to "heaven". There are of course many very good and genuine religious people, who do some truly excellent work for their fellow men and women, and this is certainly not to be disrespectful to dogmatic religion, because we must respect the freewill of everyone to manage their lives and beliefs as they see fit. The road to perfection is eternal, and there are many people being born on this physical planet for the very first time, and only just setting their feet upon the first step of the path.

But "ritual" goes beyond this. There have been (and still are) many esoteric and occult orders who practice all sorts of "ritual", without ever dealing with the most fundamental discipline of all - "know oneself", enoblement, and total mastery of self, the immortal "I" in all spheres - body, Soul and Spirit - without that balance of body, Soul an Spirit, and the accompanying elemental balance, then true ascent is just not possible, regardless of any ritual that is performed whether religiously or esoterically.

Let us all hope that the hostilities in Iraq are short, and with the minimum of suffering and loss of life.  My own feeling is that the Iraqi miltary will not put up much of a fight. By far the biggest danger of all is the effect on the world generally, because regardless of what happens next, the forces of darkness will have claimed a victory, and mankind will have been compromised in the most important decade for the future of mankind.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Anonymous]

I think this site pretty much sums it all up.

http://maddox.xmission.com/tictacs.html

[Anonymous]

Hahaha this one's even better!

http://maddox.xmission.com/limits_to_freedom.html

[Jenadots]

Hi, everyone.  Well, so far, no one seems to be blowing up homes, schools, or hospitals.  That's good and will hopefully continue.  

Can we not demonize anyone?

I also am a bit tired of hearing "Its about the oil."  I haven't noticed that they ran out of oil in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, the UK, Alaska, Texas, or any number of places that we could buy it from.   But it probably is about oil for the owners of the French, German and Russian oil contracts with Iraq.  Who knows what their interests are.

I did read one very right thing -- if all they had were carrots, we would not care at all about Iraq.  Cynically true.  

I truly await the day when we in the USA all have hybrid cars and hydrogen fueled generators for our homes and businesses.  That would be real independence and return us to our original, traditional values of self-reliance.  Then, some of the oil producing countries could get to be as insulated, fundamentalist, and live as medievally as they want to -- and we would get to ignore them.  []

And, oh yes, I do not mind being called a Yank -- it is what I am.  I don't think it is insulting at all.

I do enjoy reading all the comments here, even if I may not agree with every one of them.  You all give me a lot to think about.  

Just plain ... Jena

[goingslow]

talk whine whine talk whine

[MJ-12]

vv

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Jenadots

Can we not demonize anyone?

I suppose your US propaganda-machine could demonise Jesus himself if given full rein.

quote:
I also am a bit tired of hearing "Its about the oil."  I haven't noticed that they ran out of oil in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, the UK, Alaska, Texas, or any number of places that we could buy it from.

I know, like I intimated in a previous post to this thread it has gone on too long. Though it's not about oil, per se. After all, there are a number of countries you could buy oil from. Not only that, technically, the USA is self-sufficient in oil. But it's cheap-crude upon which your whole economic supremecy is based. The keyword being "cheap".

quote:
But it probably is about oil for the owners of the French, German and Russian oil contracts with Iraq.  Who knows what their interests are.

Well, I suppose their oil interests are largely the same. Only the ultimate price they are willing to pay I suspect will be the talking point. I cannot speak for Russian prices but fuel in France and Germany is much the same cost as it is in the UK... very expensive when compared to the US.

quote:
I did read one very right thing -- if all they had were carrots, we would not care at all about Iraq.  Cynically true.  

Yep, sorry to say. I feel I could support US military action if they were somehow going through a list of dictatorships that exist in this world, and their honest intention was to form a viable democracy then move to the next one. After two or three the rest would cave in and comply. But all they are doing is clearing up their mess from the last time; and the last time all they were doing was clearing up their mess from the time before; which was merely mess from the time before that.....

quote:
I truly await the day when we in the USA all have hybrid cars and hydrogen fueled generators for our homes and businesses.  That would be real independence and return us to our original, traditional values of self-reliance.  Then, some of the oil producing countries could get to be as insulated, fundamentalist, and live as medievally as they want to -- and we would get to ignore them.  []

The price you pay for your fuel is too cheap. While such a situation exists, what you hope for will never happen. Europe currently leads the way for hydrogen-powered cars. BMW have produced a viable model and there are now hydrogen filling stations on an experimental basis.

And I rather think people who live in the oil-producing countries of the middle-east are living insulated, fundamentalist, medieval lives precisely because you cannot just simply ignore them. After all, there would be no Saddam Hussein of Iraq; no arming him to the teeth to fight the "war" with Iran. And all the rest.....

quote:
And, oh yes, I do not mind being called a Yank -- it is what I am.  I don't think it is insulting at all.

Thanks, I thought as much. As I said, I just thought it was a commom slang word for an American just as Brit is a common slang word for a British person.

Yours,
Frank

[Anonymous]

Yank, as far as I know, is a slang word in Brittain, Australia, or other coutries with a variable English (Brittish) accent, while Brit is the American slang word for the Brittish. I'm not insulted by the term Yank- I've got friends from Brittain who use the term lightly/loosely, and I know they don't mean anything by it. It is my personal opinion that if one is insulted by these words, then they must be ashamed of their country, which I am- well, not so much the country, just the government and a majority of phonies who seem to make up a large percentage of our ever-ignorant population. I'm proud to be a true American and not just one who supports our government because they think it's "the patriotic thing to do."

So tell me, what do you all think the word "patriotic" means? I think we've already defined Brit and Yank and our opinions on these two words.

One other thing I would like to addres is that another thing that causes a lot of hostility is not knowing when to let something go. It is good to stand up for what you believe is right, and is also good to address an issue you think might be offensive, but sometimes it's best to let the little things go. Can you imagine what the world would be like if people took offense to every little thing? It would be much like America with all the suing over the stupidest things. We'd be at each others' throats and would be afraid to say anything for fear of offending someone. God forbid someone should get offended because another expresses their feelings or thoughts. So what if they are? If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. Sometimes it is not the person's intent to offend when they convey their thoughs through words, yet the other person is so paranoid that they take it offensively. It's all in the person's head sometimes. We can't go through life without offending someone. It's innevitable. That's how we learn about each other. If someone gets offended, it's not good to get offended just because they're offended by what you said. This is all just silly. "I am offended by you."   "Oh yeah? Well I'm offended that you feel offended by me." "Oh yeah? Well now I'm offended that you feel offended because you offended me." It could go on and on. But, if someone just let it go in the first place, much energy would be saved. Life is what you make of it. To sum up this gigantic paragraph, life's too short to take things so seriously. Your purpose down here, sure. Stuff like that's fine. Anything sacred should be taken seriously. Anything not sacred, should not.

BTW is the army using sex in their ads yet to get people to join? lol j/k. I'm just making fun of advertisement mentality.

Here's a quote from the website I posted.

"It seems that I offended a few people with my page on Bush. So I've decided to do what I always do when I offend people: I offend them more." There are people out there who don't care who they offend (though I don't think this person was being serious or is one of these people). Just something to think about.

[Nerezza]

I have to say that the day before the invasion began I was having second thoughts. Not so now.

The liberated Iraq people don't seem to mind being invaded.

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

That was taken from: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein's youngest son] personally supervise these murders."

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict - the organisation I chair - to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: "Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation."

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam's Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq - which some people still claim are illegal - the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.



Taken from The Times Online

Yesterday afternoon a truck drove down a side road in the Iraqi town of Safwan, laden with rugs and furniture. Booty or precious possessions? In a day of death, joy and looting, it was hard to know.
As the passengers spotted European faces, one boy grinned and put his thumb up. The other nervously waved a white flag. The mixed messages defined the moment: Thank you. We love you. Please don't kill us.

US marines took Safwan at about 8am yesterday. There was no rose-petal welcome, no cheering crowd, no stars and stripes.

Afraid that the US and Britain will abandon them, the people of Safwan did not touch the portraits and murals of Saddam Hussein hanging everywhere. It was left to the marines to tear them down. It did not mean there was not heartfelt gladness at the marines' arrival. Ajami Saadoun Khlis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of the Guardian's Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming.

"You just arrived," he said. "You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave."

"For a long time we've been saying: 'Let them come'," his wife, Zahara, said. "Last night we were afraid, but we said: 'Never mind, as long as they get rid of him, as long as they overthrow him, no problem'." Their 29-year-old son was executed in July 2001, accused of harbouring warm feelings for Iran.

"He was a farmer, he had a car, he sold tomatoes, and we had a life that we were satis fied with," said Khlis. "He was in prison for a whole year, and I raised 75m dinars in bribes. It didn't work. The money was gone, and he was gone. They sent me a telegram. They gave me the body."

The marines rolled into the border town after a bombardment which left up to a dozen people dead. Residents gave different figures. A farmer, Haider, who knew one of the men killed, Sharif Badoun, said: "Killing some is worth it, to end the injustice and suffering." The men around him gave a collective hysterical laugh.

The injustice of tyranny was merged in their minds with the effects of sanctions. "Look at the way we're dressed!" said Haider, and scores of men held up their stained, holed clothes. "We are isolated from the rest of the world."

The marines took Safwan without loss, although a tank hit a mine. "They had to clear that route through. They found the way to punch through and about 10 Iraqi soldiers surrendered immediately," said Marine Sergeant Jason Lewis, from Denver, standing at a checkpoint at the entrance to the town where, minutes earlier, a comrade had folded a huge portrait of President Saddam and tucked it into his souvenir box.

The welcome, he admitted, had been cool. "At first they were a little hesitant," he said. "As you know, Saddam's a dictator, so we've got to reassure them we're here to stay _ We tore down the Saddam signs to show them we mean business.

"Hopefully this time we'll do it right, and give these Iraqis a chance of liberty."

But the marines' presence was light. They had not brought food, medicines, or even order. All day hundreds of armoured vehicles poured through the town. But they did not stop, and the looting continued. Every government establishment seemed to be fair game. People covered their faces in shame as they carried books out of a school. Tawfik Mohammed, the headmaster, initially denied his school had been looted, then admitted it. "This is the result of your entering," he said. "Whenever any army enters an area it becomes chaos. We are cautious about the future. We are very afraid."

Safwan yesterday was a place where people were constantly taking you aside to warn in veiled terms that it was necessary to be careful. Everywhere was the lingering fear that the revenge killings that swept the area in 1991 - a product of US encourage ment and then abandonment of the southern Iraqi revolt - could happen again.

"Now, we are afraid [Saddam's] government will come back," said Haider, as the Safwan Farmers' Cooperative was being looted behind him. "We don't trust the Americans any more. People made a revolution, and they didn't help us."

Safwan is a crumbling, dead-end place, full of poor, restless young men, and reliant on the tomato trade for its income. Farmers were panicking yesterday as they asked journalists, in lieu of anyone better, how they were supposed to sell their tomatoes.

A handful of soldiers, mainly US marines but with a few British, are struggling to cope with the chaos and the lack of health care or aid.

At a checkpoint just north of the town two British military policemen with paramedical training and a US doctor rushed to treat two Iraqi men brought in on the back of a beaten-up pick-up truck. Their legs were lacerated by shrapnel. The military policemen did their conscientious best, and may have saved their lives.



Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,919627,00.html

Saddam Hussein's eldest son mercilessly beats girls as young as 12 on the soles of their feet if they refuse to sleep with him, Iraqi defectors said today.

Uday Hussein forces head teachers of schools in Baghdad's poorest districts to send pupils to his palace where he arranges dates with those he likes.

If the chosen girls annoy him in anyway they are dangled over a wooden beam held by his bodyguards and repeatedly hit with a wooden club, according to two former members of his inner circle who recently fled Iraq.

"He does it to a girl if she says she doesn't want to go out with him, or if she finds another boyfriend, or is late or reluctant," one defector told Vanity Fair magazine.

The 38-year-old warns victims not to flinch while the beating is administered or they will have their legs broken. He often hits them up to 50 times, the report claimed.

Afterwards, when they can barely walk, he orders them to dance.

Uday, head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, was known to have beaten football players and athletes when they lost.

The defectors said he also inflicted beatings, imprisonment and torture on close friends and business associates - simply for being late to a meeting or irritating him.

His punishments have become more brutal since an assassination attempt in 1996 which left him with walking difficulties and problems having sex.

Some victims have been branded on the buttocks with hot irons.

"Uday tells them, 'this mark is never going to go from your body, so you'll remember me until the day you die'," one defector said.

One former friend died after being held down and made to drink huge quantities of pure alcohol.

Business rivals have been shot in the arm or a leg and then allowed to bleed slowly to death.

Uday also likes to deflower virginity, knowing that no one will touch them after he has slept with them, the defectors said.

"He likes joking about with his friends: 'look at her, after this she'll be a prostitute'."

The defectors have been debriefed by MI6 and Pentagon officials and are regarded as reliable sources on the workings of Saddam's regime, the magazine said.

Intelligence officials believe Uday may have been in the bunker hit by a cruise missile in the "decapitation strike" on Baghdad in the first hours of the war.

His younger brother, Qusay, is Saddam's heir after Uday fell out of favour when he murdered a close friend of his father in 1988.



Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,919627,00.html

But this is all propaganda right? []

S. Marines Rip Down Saddam Portraits
Fri Mar 21, 9:41 AM ET

By ELLEN KNICKMEYER, Associated Press Writer

SAFWAN, Iraq - U.S. Marines hauled down giant street portraits of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, telling nervous residents of this southern Iraqi town that "Saddam is done."

Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly joined Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer.

"Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.

"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done."

The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq (news - web sites).

Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf war (news - web sites). Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.

A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.

"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."

Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"

Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.

A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

An old woman shrouded in black — one of the very few women outside — knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.

In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then — only to be killed by Iraqi forces.

Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.

"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.

"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."

The townspeople seemed grateful this time.

"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"

Then there is this gem: http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

Or this:
http://images.radcity.net/5149/359372.mp3

As for the protestors:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/quicktime-hq.html

and even worse:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/sf-2003-03-15/quicktime-hq.html

Americans in favor of the war:
http://gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030321.asp

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/weekinreview/26JOHN.html?ex=1044248400&en=1aec64f892889c31&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Pretty interesting:
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/2283602?source=Evening%20Standard

Etc Etc.

I have plenty more but chances are that if your anti-war, you wouldn't read them anyway(propaganda right?).

Im glad there are so many protestors out there today(except when they get in the way of ambulances [V]), because it shows that freedom still exists on earth.

[MJ-12]

cz?

[Nerezza]

Im not saying the U.S are angels but anyway...

I'd rather not take information from Jeff Rense. Unless I need some information on conspiracy or UFO stories.

Here's a case of reporting from Rense:
http://www.rense.com/general35/zionism.htm

I think someones been reading Mein Kampf. Jewish agenda? Ok.

Or this:
http://www.rense.com/general5/dis1.htm

The Illuminati? Ok moving on...

http://www.rense.com/general35/how.htm
Freemasons are behind it now huh? We're being screwed by the govenment AND ancient secret societies!

A thousand dead today for a million living tomorrow. Such is life.

Aye, fight and you may die; run, and you'll
live, at least a while. And dying in your beds,
many years from now, would you be willing
to trade all the days, from this day to that, for
one chance, just one chance, to come back
here and tell our enemies, they may take our
lives, but they will never take our freedom.

Good old Mel believes in freedom.

[Nerezza]

1) Do you think the Shi'a people will be given 1/3 representation in a democratic parliment after the war ends? Remember the Shi'as are very Islamic in their religious views. This has many Suffi and Kurd's upset since they view the Islamics as very backwards. There is almost no tolerance for Islam or what are seen as Iranian type views.


Shi'a arabs are the major religion in Iraq, like Christianity is in the western world. In our democracy, religion is separate from state, it should be in the new Iraqi democracy. Do I think they will be given 1/3 representation? It's far to early to tell given that the war isn't even over yet.  

Questions 2,3, and 4 are essentially the same, and the answer is, if the U.S made a dollar down everytime a country in the middleeast threatened Jihad, the U.S could pay of their debts and still have enough to go to a matinee. It will happen regardless of war or not.

5) How do you think this war will impact the war on terrorism (taking into account the countries that have large investments in Iran)?
Will this squash terrorism or increase it? Encourage more governments to support America of fewer governments?

Terrorism threats will increase, no doubt about it. But inaction would result in more successful terrorist attacks. You will never squash terrorism. It's a lose lose situation. 9/11 happened before the Iraq war, something probably bigger will happen in the future.

6) One last question. Why do you think France, Russia, Germany, China were appose to this war? America seems puzzled. I'm not. While America was busy labelling them as part of the 'axis of absolute evil' The above countries were busy communicating, engaging Iran. They are much more informed of the mentality of this country. France has been hoping for a slow opening of this economy...sort of like China. Hey they are able to play music again (use to be forbidden). How much do you think Bush understands Iranian mentality vs. these countries?

France, Russia, and Germany have trade pacts with Iraq, thats why. It's not because they give a damn about the Iraqi people. China really could care less, they are isolationists and once and a while add something to the debate.

Why do you keep mentioning Iran? What about Israel and the fact that they are surrounded by people that want to nuke them? Wouldn't Israel benefit from one less nation wanting to destroy them?

Lets look at it this way. The U.S dropped nukes on Japan to end the war faster and tactitians agree that lives were actually saved in the long run. Should the U.S. of waited and let the war continue longer than was necessary?

That artical you gave me has an interesting quote:

In January, Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi told a crowd in Gaza: "We call on the Arabs and Muslims to burn the land under the feet of the American invaders, especially our brothers in Saudi Arabia because this war is not against Iraq, it's against the Islamic nation."


Let me ask you a question. Do you believe this war is against the Islamic nation?

Of course, if you see this as a what if game. Do not play. But I personally do not see that many what ifs. More when will for me.

Life is a what if game. What if you studied something else in school, what would happen? What if you marry one person over another? What if you went outside instead of staying indoors? "What if" is irrelevant because there are no guarantees in life, especially in war. We make "what if" decisions everyday. The U.S has chosen to attack iraq, rather than wait and see if they will attack the U.S.

Time will tell if everything will work out for the best, but it seldom does in world events. People assumed that during the cold war, the world would be destroyed, and yet it hasn't.

What if the U.S waited and were later attacked, whose side would the protestors be on? Are sides irrelevant when when it's your people being attacked?

I think what the problem is in this whole debate is the fact that something has to be done, and that something is a dirty three letter word that no one likes to use.

This will be my last post in this thread, because I think it's disrespectful to the troops and civilians dieing over there right now. Especially those just captured...

[Nerezza]

I see, you do think this is a what if game. That's okay. That is the big difference between you and I. I see very few what ifs. War with Iran is inevitable. Not because America sees this as a war with Islam....Remember what I keep saying....it is world perception that ends the day.


If I came out that way, I apoligize. I use humor to make a point sometimes, but do not assume that I think of this as a game.

America and people with your mind set keep ignoring other perceptions than your own. You see it this way. So it is this way. Of course! Hmmmm....Nope sorry.

Im glad you know me so well. Are you my soul mate? But really, arn't you doing the same thing? You just said that your way of seeing things is the right way, or implied it.

America must see other countries view on this situation and not ignore these perceptions. Otherwise they will find that they get themselves in one hell of a mess. Opps! Too late. Iran sees this as a serious war against Islam, that darn perception thing again. You have ignored this at your own follie. America had better do really heavy damage control with Iran fast or they are out of luck. No peace agreement with Palestine will quell Iran.


I will not discuss the war anymore, as stated.

As for peace agreement with Isreal. How will the US deal with an Isreal who believes the Americans will betray it. They believe the Americans will seek to regain favour with the Arab world after the Iraq war by bullying Isreal into giving a better deal to the Palestinians. Wow! There is a lot of Trust there! Even Americans strongest allies do not trust America! That will make peace talks easy.


Israel is one of the United States biggest allies. The U.S has promised Sharon billions in aid this year.

As we grow spiritually we come to see that in a dualistic world there is no truth...only perception. Ignore another mans perception and conflict is inevitable unless he/she is a very wise person. Unfortunately, not enough of those in the world. Do not let the beliefs and filters you were born into fool you...truth lyes on higher planes than this dualistic plane.

Im the last to hide behind psuedo-enlightenment and newage belief to get my point across. Don't assume because someone holds a different opinion than you that they are born into a lie, nor attack the person who won't see it your way. Perception and truth. Think about it, I "percieve" that dog is really a cat, but I really know the "truth", it's a dog. But that's for another forum.

Doing the christian thing(I was born blind into it), I will ask for your forgiveness. I have upset you somehow and im sorry but I do not share your beliefs, it does happen, though understand that I respect them. If this is not enough, I can't offer you anything more.

[Tom]

The world is a very big place and I have not met anyone who knows everything going on in it, either. Lots of people are only too happy to tell me, though, and the only price for their help is that I must agree completely with their perspective. No one really sets out to make the world a worse place, but acting without having enough facts can lead to this result. Sometimes I think too many people are doing too much and that more people should have the courage to sit down, be quiet, and learn. This is the approach I take most often. My friends accuse me of not caring and of not trying to help.

[Nerezza]

As for the game. You did not wish to address my questions because they were too much a what if. You wish to stay in the present and deal with the present, it seems. Does this exclude your desire to look ahead to future potential implications? If so I can understand now why you are pleased with how this war has gone. I merely wish to understand your mind set and why you are so for this war.


In essence yes. I've spent the better part of my life dreaming of times and events down the future, only to find myself back where I started. Im tired of looking at a tomorrow that may not happen. And, im not salivating over my keyboard at the thought of people going to war. If I was, I would want the U.S army to roll through to baghdad in one day, or perhaps nuke the city and call it a day.

Sharon was the one who stated on TV that he would not let America bully him into an agreement that favours Palestine, just so America could save face in the Arab world. So this was a perception that came out of the mouth of Mr. Sharon. Mind you the interperter might have done a poor job. That I can not say since I do not speak Hebrew.

Actually your right, he did say that. But keep in perspective the situation in which it was said. Daily suicide bombings while the world cried foul at Israeli retaliation. But thats another matter.

I guess I did not explain myself well enough with the perception thing. What I was getting at is that very few of us knows what really happens in this world. Can you hand me the fish food bag? Did you hear Saddams son give the order? Did you make sure no one paid the man to say this? You believe because this is part of your perception of what is real and makes sense. You call what MJ-12 presents propaganda and conspiracy theory. This arguement works well for you. Why should it not work for me or others? Or do you believe the American media never lies? Like I said very few of us will ever now what really happens in this world. Even if we see for ourselves something first hand and know it is real, few of us will walk away understanding why it really happened. We are mostly left with our perceptions of what really happens in this world. Truth is above perception and should never be confused with what we percieve to be real.


The media lies period, when it suits them. I've studied the media and how it influences society in a couple of university courses and the things that are done would make you question the point of the news media.

We are different people, my beliefs are built in logic and facts(not saying your not, just that I depend on them to a fault). I would make a staunch atheist. That being said, a site which proclaims UFO's on mars and zionist disneyland does not appeal to those beliefs while CNN (for the most part) does. But that is who I am.  

Because of this all we can really do is attempt to gain as much perspective as possible in life and seek to understand as many people as we can.

100% agree.

If you perceived that I was attacking you I am sorry. All I ever hope to accomplish in these situations is to get someone to think or more importantly gain their perspective. If asking questions in the hope of making someone think or more importantly in the hope to understand their perception of this world, is perceived to be an attack I will have to rethink how I deal with people. Again I am sorry.


Your questions were fine, your comments about me being born in a lie was what bothered me[]

P.S. You in no way offended me at all. I am merely too curious for my own good sometimes. Plus, I was seriously interested in your answers to my questions because I really would perfer that my perspective be wrong. I would perfer that this be much, much simpler. It is the numerous implications down the road that most of us apposed to war are concerned about though. I wanted to see what your view on some of these 'implications' was.

I prefer that your perspective is right, as I believe it would be less painful. I would love to be wrong, I pray that I am, but im just not seeing it. I do understand your point of view though, it's just that im tired of looking ahead to something which may never happen all the time.

"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was! What he was doing!"

A great man said that, anyone know who? []

Also...

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.


Last, I apologize MJ-12(who will undoubtly find fault in my assumption that his link was from a subjective site). I still stick by my convictions on the matter, I've been tricked before. Theres a saying thats used alot, "If it's on the internet, it most be true". I have no choice but to carefully looked at the site in which I get the information.

Tom,

Ever the voice of reason.

The world is a very big place and I have not met anyone who knows everything going on in it, either. Lots of people are only too happy to tell me, though, and the only price for their help is that I must agree completely with their perspective. No one really sets out to make the world a worse place, but acting without having enough facts can lead to this result. Sometimes I think too many people are doing too much and that more people should have the courage to sit down, be quiet, and learn. This is the approach I take most often. My friends accuse me of not caring and of not trying to help.

I've watched video's on the internet of executions, gang beatings in which people have rocks crush their heads while on tape. Some one getting his fingers cut off while awake, the daniel pearl video, a video in which a man was placed on the ground and shot in the jaw and lived for a few minutes with the wound until he was finally killed, and otheres equally brutal than I care to remember. I've seen these things from a video screen and yet it has affected me to the point where I no longer blink an eye to footage of mass graves or whatnot. Im indifferent and i've grown cold and cruel and now im trying to regain a bit of my humanity back by wanting torture to stop. That is why I don't want to debate the war anymore, hearing about the captured soldiers being executed despite the Geneva Convention, it put over the top. People suffering is not a game to me, and I would without question sacrifice myself in a war if it meant innocent people wouldn't have to suffer.

When I die I will be judged. A judgement on myself, or from God, or a mixture of both. To me, at the present, I can live with wanting pain to stop, through any means necessary(oxymoron?).

[Frank]

Hmm... an interesting and honest judgement from Nerazza. It kinda makes me wonder about your past history and the future incarnations you have yet to endure.

Fact is, all Arab leaders are walking on a tightrope right now. Your US-talk about, "democracy in Iraq" is sending shudders down their collective spine. Middle Eastern regimes share many features with Saddam's. They are very un-democratic and repressive. Though not to the same extreme as Iraq. (But, then again, SH was a puppet of the US originally so what can you expect.) Plus, these regimes have precious little respect for the rule of law; and *regularly* abuse the human rights of their people.

Yet the USA have friendly relations with ALL these states!!! Not only that, the USA has totally failed to exert any serious pressure on them to reform. It is perhaps unfortunate that recent events have made the leaders of these countries fearful of the fact that a new democratic regime in Iraq, may cause their people to demand such similar freedoms for themselves.

Ultimately, I detect more of the kind of seething anger that demolished your twin-towers may well be the order of the day for a while yet.

We will wait and see.

Yours,
Frank