A.I.-some ideas

[magickdan]

They could genetically Engineer a brain and teach it to do things like a human. They can grow ears on the back of mice so in the future they could most possibly do that.

[jilola]

Genetic algorithms is what you're talking about.
It won't be 4th or 10th genration but rather the 10 millionth or so but the idea is that you can start up with a population of simpler programs and use evoluotionary principles to come up with better programs.
This is reality today, at least in a smaller scale.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[beavis]

jilola is right, except it usually takes 10,000 or 100,000 generations instead.

Most of the offspring are pure crap, unlike real evolution. But some work, and fewer work better. The problem is they change too much. We dont know how to make them change less because we think in terms of on or off - logical, with the computer. That will have to change.

Gentetic AI has invented several things that were patented and superior to any human invention for the same task. No other kind of AI has ever patented an invention, that I'm aware of.

[joya250]

hmmm, interesting.  

I think that before we see "pure" artificial intelligence, computers will be combined with humans.  Maybe in this way, computers will be able to evolve through being linked to live human intelligence.  It is unnerving how much the push for this is in the field of new technologies.  From reading magazines, like Wired (which I used to love, but now I avoid), one would think that people idolize the "perfection" of computers -- and that they are greatly looking forward to :"connecting", being "plugged in", whatever you call it.

You'll look around and see the trends for this forward movement everywhere.  

Will people have the choice to give up their bodies for possible electronic existance?

There's more questions on this, but I don't know if this is too much a tangent off your original thread...

joya

[Rob]

ORMUS metals seem to occur in quantities by weight of 10% of the brain (for cows). Since these are substances which are only 56% "here" in our dimension it is a logical conclusion that they are the connection between mind (spirit) and body. Therefore any real AI would probably be a combination of work between a powerful magician and a technohead - the magi creates the mind form, and links it to the ormus. This is then used as an input mechanism into a highly sophisticated computer/robot. Tricky, to say the least....heh, another potential route for cyborgs too eh? When someone dies they have a robot waiting for them to take it over []

(more info on ormes: www.subtleenergies.com)

[jilola]

Beavis: to grow a human-like intelligence from frist principles would probably take several million generations.

For real world applicaitons a couple of hundred or thousand usually suffice.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Kazbadan]

Inguma: what are ormus? only 56% are in our reality? i am confused. Since some time ago that i dont study stuff related to physics.

AI it´s a complex matter. I have some different opinions on how can it born:
- scientists can simulate insectoid thoughts with a computer. Maybe they can simulate the evolution of nervous system in the animals. I mean: first they create insects (their minds), then birds, then cats....etc ..until reaching the primates.

- maybe scientists can figure out something on how human brain works, and then create an AI.

-Ormus (dont know what is...see above in the post, this is just a guess) plus AI = AI?

- Cloning+biological advance research will result, in the future, in computers that are made of organic tissues. Later, this tissues maybe will be combinated with DNA resulting in computers that are real (but human made) living  organisms. This hypothesis is very interesting. Besides that, maybe we could discover (now this is SCI-FI) that in the past we were just bio-computers created by other superior inteligence.

-Maybe the study of human soul (with methods like obes, psy, etc) can show us how to create AI...if that is possible.

This last point as make me think: if obes are real and if we were able to create an AI (a machine that is self-counscious), would it be possible to have a soul, or able obe?


AI it is indeed controversial matter, that can make us think in many aspects of our life. Would like to know more english in order to able to discuss this topic in a fluent matter (when writing this i feel some kind of barrier...the language).

[beavis]

jilola, to just run the human-like intelligence, as I have calculated, it would take about a 1000000 ghz computer. Think of how many atoms are on earth and how many billion years it took to evolve us. For a similar evolution, at least 1% of those atoms would have to be simulated for the same time. Probably take million^5 generations instead of million^1.

[jilola]

Well, if you had a massively parallel system of 2Ghz computers each simulating some thousand or so neurons I think it could be done given sufficient time to evolve the population.

Hey, ain't 1E11 several million []

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Rob]

Kaz - am about to go to bed, must be brief, lots of work to do tomorrow and I want to go out in the evening so! Gotta get it done.

Ormus - as I said, if you want more info check out the link I provided. Some transition group metals (primarily platinum group is used) can be changes into another state of matter in which the atoms entirely seperate (become monatomic) or form small clusters (up to 100 atoms). When in this state they no longer act as a metal (ie have NO metallic properties and cannot be detected by pretty much any tests), but can exist as a very fine powder, physically detectable by the fingers etc. They are superconducting (type 3) at room temperature (VERY WEIRD). The 56% thing - when changed from the normal state to ormus state they lose 4/9's I think (44%) of their weight, ie the mass is probably shifted up the dimensional scale. As such they form a link from our physical world to the next zone up - ie it likely exist as etheric energy.
There is a theory that ormus is infact the basis for the human energy body, and the aura is infact a meissner (sp?) field. I've followed this line of thought but its very hard to come to any definate conclusions.

"Ormus (dont know what is...see above in the post, this is just a guess) plus AI = AI?"

Hahaha yes funny isn't it? If you really want to look at it from that perspetive magicians have been creating AI for aeons!!!!
But in this context we really have to define AI as intelligence created by man which is able to express itself physically. As such my idea fits...

Rob

[Veccolo]

Kazbadan:

quote:"some scientists believe that we may achieve that, not by an exaustive comprehension of the brain human, but by creating some essentail programs (that can be reprooducing some functions of human inteligence)"

I don't know if I understood you correctly, but if you meant what I think you meant, then I think you're right. We first need some base programs which simulate the way the human brain stores, accesses and processes data. We also need devices which let the AI collect data the same way we do (eyes, ears etc.).

The concept of programs that "evolve" and reproduce is good, but extremely complicated if applied to the "human intelligence simulator".

Let's say program A knows the sum of 1+1 and program B knows the sum of 20+5. Now program A fuc*s program B and they have a cute child, named program C. Program C now knows the sum of 1+1 and 20+5. Easy.

But the the human brain stores all data (the visuals, tones, smells etc.) in a way which is probably millions of times more complicated than that. Just think of all the possible combinations! Uarghl. I don't know if it would be possible to program such an insanely big and complicated program. Maybe with millions of programmers ... but how do you organize THAT? Insane! [xx(] And the bugs ... do you want to debug such a program? I don't. But I'm a lazy butt []

A special programming language is needed to, I doubt someone can program such a monster with C/C++ or something like that.

So no human-like sex robots in this life I think [] ... oh well ...

[Rob]

Hey - I went to an interview once with Kinetic (formerly DERA - defense establishment research agency) where they were designing subs. But because the process was so immensely complicated, what they actually did was put it all into the sort of breeding ideas you are talking about. They would take, I think, two subs and mate them together, forming many variations in offspring, which were each (automatically?) tested for suitability. All because there was simply too much complexity, too many part, too many considerations to design things the normal way. Weird eh?

[Kazbadan]

Computers are great machines. Sometime ago i read somewhere something that i´ve been thinking (afterall i am not crazy): in theory it is possible to build a computer that don´t use any elctricity; you can build a computer only with, let´s say, some wheels and pulleys! Of course that it would be very expensice and your computer it would ocupy a city(?)!

There are more interesting things related to computers: how do you think that it is possible to create artificial intelegence? some scientists believe that we may achieve that, not by an exaustive comprehension of the brain human, but by creating some essentail programs (that can be reprooducing some functions of human inteligence)

After that, the programs with start to recombine in many ways in order to create (or try) the human inteligence.

I think that i am not explain my self very well (english it is not my mother tongue....it is very difficult for me): some guys (programmers) have tested something interesting, a program that will creat by himself other programs (simple programs that execute very simle functions) in a random way.

The Mother Program, after the creation, will choose the best programs that himslef as created: let´s say, the mainprgrm creats 100 programas and will choose only 10% (the bests).

After that he will recombine the "sons", the bests programs in order to obtain new programs (second generation) that are betters than the "father" because they possess alll the good things from the creator. This process will continue and at a certain point (third-fourth generation(?)) we will have great programs that execute in the best way possible the desired function(s).

When the programers looked into the program itself(the language i mean) they noticed that they dont undersatn nothing that it is "write". They say that they never would make a such good program executing that function! This is a kind of "Darwinistics Laws of Evolution aplyied to Computers", and maybe it is that kind of idea that will genearte artificial intelegence.

Besides that "mother Programs" we will need some other things, like auto-learning programs for example.

If you want to know more, read the amazing boog of Daniels Hillis, "The Pattern of The Stone".