War with Iraq ... an interesting alternate view

[Mobius]

WAR CRIMES
A Report on United States War Crimes Against Iraq to the Commission of Inquiry for the International War Crimes Tribunal

http://www.deoxy.org/wc/wc-toc.htm

Mobius

[Tisha]

http://www.pbs.org/now/resources/debate.html

HAH. Now I've got a link too [^]  Check it out, it's good stuff.  Responsible journalism.  Educated viewpoints.  I love PBS!

[MJ-12]

zx

[PeacefulWarrior]

Tisha!  I was very happy to see your complex, objetive take on this issue.  I, like you, see all the negative elements and impacts of this new war...but I too see that it is truly not an entirely bad thing.  When are people going to call a spade a spade.  Recent events have made it painfully obvious that Saddam is no different than other terrorists.  France and Germany will change their minds quickly when they have their own Sept. 11's.

Thanks for the links.
The following was from one of the links:
---------ACLJ Applauds President Bush For His Position On Iraq

September 12, 2002
(Washington, DC) - The American Center for Law and Justice, an international public interest law firm specializing in constitutional law, said today it fully supports President Bush's strategy in dealing with Iraq. The following statement was issued following President Bush's remarks to the United Nations by ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow:

"The President has put forth a sound and reasonable strategy for dealing with Iraq and its leader Saddam Hussein. We support the President's call for a regime change in Iraq and applaud his efforts to challenge the United Nations to enforce numerous resolutions that have been ignored by Iraq. The President presented a clear and compelling case of how Iraq and Saddam Hussein continue to build an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, engage in international terrorism, and are responsible for egregious human rights violations.

"Iraq represents a real threat to freedom and security - not only to America - but to our friends around the world. Without question, President Bush is justified in pursuing a strategy that protects America and our freedoms. At a time when we are engaged in a global war against terrorism, we cannot stand by and watch Iraq and Saddam Hussein continue to ignore U.N. resolutions. We encourage President Bush to take whatever action is necessary to protect the United States."

The American Center for Law and Justice is an international public interest law firm specializing in constitutional law. The web site address is www.aclj.org.

[MJ-12]

xv

[assia]

Trisha, I don't disagree that there is a natual cycle of life-death-life, but war is not equivalent to the "food chain." War is a wanton, conscious, moral choice of man to destroy other men unnecessarily.

[Tisha]

Oh . . . so then we were supposed to let Hitler do whatever he wanted, then?  We should just lie back and let people engage in genocide?  What, folks think we should just shake our fingers and say "tsk tsk you shouldn't do that?" Shun them? What, people think we haven't already tried 12 years of non-military intervention in Iraq?  

I'm not pro-war. Like many, I'm a cynic, and suspicious of the motives of this whole Iraq situation.  To me, George W. Bush personifies agressive, southern (Texan to be exact), pro-military, anti-intellectual religious fundamentalism, the leader of a Southern takeover of the U.S. and the rest of the world, and I don't like it one bit.  So I am always quick to judge him harshly.

But I read history, and it's evident that George Bush is at least listening to other people who KNOW the history of the U.S.'s disgraceful Middle-East policies.  We're up to our neck in excrement. The Arab masses are striking back and actually HURTING us, and the world is too small anymore for the U.S. to ignore the supposedly inconsequential masses on the other side of the world, or to ignore the consequences of our deals-with-the-devil with evil dictators for oil.

So NOW what?  The answer is that the U.S. does whatever it can to make things right. It's too late to apologize. We don't have time to ponder long-term strategies, because revenge is smoking on our front porch. So "making things right" will first be toppling the evil dictator that WE - the U.S. - set up.  The rest of the Middle East hates Saddam, his own people hate him.  

The next step should be seeing to the enfranchisement of the whole world.  Not necessarily to make every place a Democracy, because there are a lot of different ways to run a country.  But at the very least, give the voiceless masses their voice, so they stop blowing themselves up in protest.

As for the U.S. posture overseas, well, absolute power corrupts absolutely, right?  It's my prayer that over time sovereign nations will develop enough power-currency to deal with the U.S. on it's own level. France and Germany are enough of a powerhouse to ruin the U.S.'s day.  World politics should be like that, with no one nation overrunning the rest.

Enough of a rant for the day!  I'm off to sunny Florida on vacation. Let's hope it goes without incident.

[Tisha]

One more thing . . . War IS a part of the natural life/death cycle.  Someday, sit outside and watch the weeds battle for domination on your front lawn (they're slow, but effective). Or try maintaining a household with multiple CATS.  Or children even.  Or, watch National Geographic on TV: Those big beasts will kill for territory as fast as they'll kill for a good meal.  Battle is not just a human thing, but rather one of the more painful steps in the Dance.

Not that I like it!

[Anonymous]

Tisha- To add to your point, Wars also exist because of the Law of Opposites. Yin and yang. In order for there to be peace, war (or at least the concept thereof) must exist. It's good that people think war sucks. That shows that they are using their free will to do good on earth, and not (just) evil. We've all done evil things in one way or another, to one degree or another, no matter how minute they may seem (even your thoughts can be evil). But by doing this we can increase our desire to do well. Mistakes and failure are part of success, just as caving in is part of spiritual advancement, enlightenment, and understanding. What doesn't kill us only makes us stronger.

This does not mean we shouldn't try to stop the war. The effort is an opportunity to put a good mark on your soul. Just as one will use weed killers on their lawn to try to get rid of the weeds, or an animal will defend itself from its predator, we can try to stop the war, for that is also natural.

[MJ-12]

vd

[Rob]

"The Arab masses are striking back and actually HURTING us"
Striking BACK – that is the critical word here. America and England have already killed more innocent Iraqis than Saddam has, through repeated bombing missions, and economic sanctions. Our countries have flows tens of thousands of missions over Iraq, bombing the hell out of their infrastructure – not just military sites, but mostly things like water treatment plants, herds of cattle, innocent farmers, etc etc. What possible legitimate reason could there be for doing this? It certainly isn't in any UN charter – ironic really, we accuse Saddam of breaking the rules, when our governments break them every day.
The reason we are implementing such a horrific program of terror against these innocents is IMO to make sure that they never, ever, pose a threat to our interests in the region, but also to keep everything nice and unstable, because this drives oil prices up, and means that somewhere, there is always a bogeyman (because nobody in the military makes money without a bogeyman – read some Al Martin).
Saddam poses no threat, not to anyone, except perhaps his own people and even then – less of a threat than white-collared economically-driven genocide (500,000 Iraqi children dead – I don't care what he has done, or what he could do, NOTHING can EVER justify this, it is vile to even try and do so), and less of a threat than our multi-$million bombers and smart bombs.
Right now though, sick as I am of Blair and his empty-rhetoric, I am proud of my country. Very proud, because yesterday 1-2 million British people took to the streets – the biggest rally our country has ever seen – to protest on this issue. Not that I can see it doing anything, democracy has essentially been dead for years, only now it is turning more rotten on the surface, and is visible for what it is. Hollow. We shout about our democracy being so superior, but they are all the same now, politicians driven by the economic agenda not of the people, but of the muti-nationals, the CEO's and heads of companies that dwarf governments.
And as someone pointed out on another forum I visit (cloud busters), by the time the troops move in, the war is already over. It has been going on for years now, ever since the Gulf, invasion is just wrapping it up. Democracy? You'd be lucky...
Feeling slightly sick
Rob

[Anonymous]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Antiwar_Movement

Every time Bush opens his mouth, I am reminded that he is more a fool than I remember from the last time he opened his mouth. What's he got for a brain, a deformed liver?!

So who wants to help me create a man-made mobile island and call it our own country? Or better yet, how about some sort of biodome on the bottom of the deepest sea or ocean in the world?

[clandestino]

This article was in last week's edition of the onion (www.theonion.com)....
Saddam Enrages Bush With Full Compliance
WASHINGTON, DC—President Bush expressed frustration and anger Monday over a U.N. report stating that Iraqi president Saddam Hussein is now fully complying with weapons inspections. "Enough is enough," a determined Bush told reporters. "We are not fooled by Saddam's devious attempts to sway world opinion by doing everything the U.N. asked him to do. We will not be intimidated into backing down and, if we have any say in the matter, neither will Saddam." Bush added that any further Iraqi attempt to meet the demands of the U.N. or U.S. will be regarded as "an act of war."

[Anonymous]

LOL!

I love The Onion! It's such a great site.

[Epsilon]

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist myself, but I've read in a couple places that a nuclear war is no longer possible, even if Bush decides to push the button because the sun has turned from a hydrogen sun to a helium sun which makes all the bombs duds.  This would be nice if true, but it is prob something someone made up.

[Anonymous]

If you really want to know the answer to that theory, you should try surfing NASA's websites. Or just search a lot of independent websites.

[Anonymous]

p.s. And yeah it definitely would be nice if that were true. I'm planning on doing some research into this myself.

[amcturbo]

Here's a link to NASA's site about HOW Hydrogen is converted to Helium and the energy that is created as a result.  So, the sun hasn't changed from one gas to the other, it's converting one gas into the other.  The engergy created is what "heats" our planet.  The link is http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/exhibits/stars/star_6.html

Suffice to say, nukes are NOT DUDS, they're very powerful and destructive creations of mankind.  For more details on just how powerful the various nuclear bombs are ... go to http://www.bilderberg.org/hbomb.htm ... it will be a sad day when someone uses another one of these bombs on humanity.  Specifically, check out http://www.bilderberg.org/hbomb.htm#tests

[Epsilon]

Yes they are unfortunately powerful.  I hope and pray that I will never see one be used in my lifetime.
I also believe the USA is pretty hypocritical when it asks for everyone else to disarm when it has the largest stockpile of these weapons than anyone else in the world. [V]

[Epsilon]

And stuff like this really pisses me off about Bush...

=======================================

Feb. 18, 2003, 2:50pm EST
PRES. BUSH NOT SWAYED BY ANTI-WAR PROTESTS

President Bush said Tuesday he would not allow the weekend's protests against a possible war in Iraq change U.S. policy toward the government of Saddam Hussein.



http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/iraq_02-18-03.html

=======================================

I wouldn't lose an second of sleep if he was impeached, in fact, I'd probably sleep better!  And have my first successful OBE because of it! []

[Rob]

Oh yeah, and they are doing a great job of breaking down eupropean unity, forming a split in policy. No doubt that was also part of the plan.
ggrrrr!!!!!!

[MJ-12]

I gds

[Epsilon]

A guy I worked told me his nickname for CNN: Communist News Network... He's more into politics than anyone I know.  He's very intelligent and daily writes into news stations or calls them and expresses his opinions.  
Anyways, when it comes to biased news, I'd say Fox News is the worst.  CNN is pretty high up there too.  
I found recently that a good place to look for news is PBS (www.pbs.org)

It's sad how even the news stations are using "mind tricks" to influence us.  As if the government wasn't doing enough of it already...

[bomohwkl]

Looting?! Iraqis themselves are destroying their very own history. It seems that Iraqis people only understand Freedom of looting. Sadly, majority of Iraqis don't appreciate peace. Civil conflicts and oppression will continue in Iraq. Liberation by USA? The people themselves have to liberate themselves first.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Epsilon

A guy I worked told me his nickname for CNN: Communist News Network... He's more into politics than anyone I know.

LOL: I like that. In the UK the BBC is often nickmaned the Blair Broadcasting Corporation.

Yours,
Frank