firstly i believe in astral projection and have projected. and below is not my believe just my ideas. abstract thoughts that i think about whehn i get bored of everything else
enjoy....:
What is really real?How do i know that what i think is real is not only really real to me?
Firstly i am bad at expressing my thoughts as words so if this comes out as mumbo jumbo its cause of that.
Well were do i start..... i suppose i ll tell you what made me think of this.
I was talking to some one on this forum and asked him why he wanted to astral project.
He said to see if there is really an afterlife or not.
My reply was that if you do project and get proof of there been an afterlife. Then that only makes it real to you and you cannot use that evidence to make someone else believe it is real.
because evidence is only real to us if it is subjective and can be correctly placed in our tapistry of believe and experience and reality.
I suppose what am saying is that if i was a monkey that lived in a forest and never seen man. then my monkey friend says "mate have you seen that ugly creature he aint got no hair the weirdo. what the hell is it?"
I d be like mate what you talking about your dillusional i aint never seen no man there is only me and you in this forest.
or if i was a man that never saw a bird i would nt believe there were such things as birds cause it would fit my description of reality.
so if a man says to another he look i know i astral projected cause when i did i checked the time and then when i woke up it was the same time as in my ap.
the other man would most definatly say hey mate you need a doctor your dillusional.
.....
So what is real?
How do you define real?
I think this table is real and this window because of one of 2 things firstly cause my limited senses collect the data which is sent to my brain as electrical pulses
secondly because i have walked to this window before and touched it and decided it was real and so added to my description of reality.
When ever we decide something is real or not it adds to our description of reality
Am i talkin rubbish or is it understandable so far?
So the only reason this table is real is because my senses collect the data that my mind says is real and ultimatley because i say its real to me.
but how do i know its not all just in my mind?
How do i know this whole life of mine is not just a product of my mind?
What happenes if nothing exsists outside of my mind and that it is all just made up by my mind to make me have fun or enjoy life or fufill certain criteria or learn certain lessons?
and if it is real again how can i prove it?
If i say to a man that is blue and the other man see's it diffrently than me and does nt see my description of blue because our minds create diffrent things cause reality is a product of our mind and we both have diffrent criteria to fufill. now that man will beleive me that that coulor is blue for the rest of his life even know its not. if that was conditioned to him as a child of course.
ok so then some one says thats not blue. i ll say to him well what is blue describe blue?
How can you describe blue. you can say its darker than red but lighter than black what else can you use as a descriptive description other than that.
taking that in consideration say me and my mate see a fit girl down town and i say well what does she look like
say both me and my mate both says she has brown hair and is medium height and has blue eyes.
well then what happpenes if my mates idea of brown was diffrent than mine yet we both agreed that she has brown hair?
say i thought brown was black and he thought brown was grey?
then am seeing a woman with black hair and he is seeing a woman with grey hair
so were both seeing diffrent people but because of our lack of fundemental knowledge and limited communication we both see the same person in theroy.
am not sure if i lost you all yet but am trying to communicate the best i can. o get my ideas across
Well i dunno if this is a load of nonsense i wrote but i ll finish it off with more nonsense
you see when you program a computer game nobody would want a game where you just walk straight to the end and win lots of money. why?
well cause you gotta have bad things happen and danger to know that your winning because how else are you gonna know you winning without loosing its a paradox
mabye thats how life is?
maby the situations and problems i am facing now . the pain the hurt the heart brake. hate and anger. death and despair. mass genocide and poverty mabye none of that is real because mabye our mind just created it the same reason the programmer creates it on the game to let the subjective person know he is winning.
but if we take out the loosing and say we cant really losse cause its all just created to let us know where winning. well then that means we cant really win either. cause you cant win without loosing right?
so then to balance the equation that mean all the love,happiness, joy,profit, happy memories that makes them not real to in the sense of winning?
anyways see you all later hope this made a little sense and never made me look like a complete idiot
hope to hear from you all
You're right really.
But then, you'd have to reply to people who ask you "Is it real?" with "who cares?". :)
hey xanth why would you have to reply to people with the answer "who cares". lol :lol:
The question "what is real" is not just limited to things like astral projection or supernatural experiences or spiritual visions or whatever. It can and does apply to absolutely EVERY aspect of existence. How do you know, how do you REALLY KNOW, that everything you consider "reality" isn't actually just a very convincing and reasonably stable sort of dream? No, it's not that much like sleeping dreams, which are fluid and difficult to control, but when you're dreaming, unless you become lucid, you never know you're dreaming. You act and react as if everything in the dream is real. You accept it all at face value and react accordingly. How do you know that your waking reality isn't just another kind of dream... ?
So the question "what is real" and "how do you define it" becomes a very interesting question, indeed. Meditation on this question can lead to extraordinary places. Do you want to see just how deep the rabbit hole goes? :wink:
The fact is, most people only ever experience one reality, which I usually refer to as "material objective". They compare everything else to that reality. But it's only one possible VIEW of reality, and there are many other possibilities you can experience. There's no reason why everything has to be compared to "material objective" reality (or a variation on it, which is "material objective with some supernatural elements"). There's also no reason why that has to be your primary reality. It's just the default experience/view. Most people never experience anything else, but there's a lot more possible....
haha you missed some other great sayings caterpillar woman haha
Morpheus: "it is the world that has been pulled over our eyes to blind us from the truth"
Morpheus: " You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe what ever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and see how deep the rabbit hole really goes"
Then there's that traitor in the second one that says "I know its not really there but ignorance is bliss".
Its weird you should have quoted that because a few years back when i first started to try and comprehend the concept of astral projection and reality ect i didn't know how to think of it and it was hard to comprehend as i was only like 14 or something.
At the time the first of the three films in the matrix (really good film and the creator must have belived in this stuff if you take away the idea of the machines ect that was just used as entertainment and instead look at some of the philosophy the guy has in there its awesome)
You might think am crazy but next time you watch the film strip it of its entertainment values and characteristics and think about some of the things that are said in the second film i find them really philosophical.
Anyhow when i started to learn about this i had to compare it to the most alike thing i knew of at that time and it was the matrix.
i mean i know where not in know program ect but we are been minipulated and controlled, kept in the dark and fed b's lirally and metophorically to stop us asking questions and really find out "how deep the rabbit hole goes"
We are in a world were we believe we have limited resources and a dont mean fossil fuel lmao i mean that we belive we are restricted in what we can do when in the astral there is nothing we cant do.
Because we are made in the image of god and so we are all god. And god is everything so then if we are everything then nothing is impossible lmao thats a mind bender.
anyhow back on topic i shall get haha
I agree with that catipillar woman how do you know this is nt a dream?
the thing is we dont and i recall reading a story i love mythlogy anyways in one tribe i think they were aboriginals they belive that there dreams are real and there waking experiences are products of there imagination
Now just imagine that you lived in a mountain that made it impossible for any civilasation to get to you.
Imagine you had no restrictions and were not consitioned in the natural laws and of the normal accepted believe of reality. so theres just you and your monkeys lmao
I mean How would you thnk of the dark and the night?
What would you think of night and day?
Would you label it with the concept of time?
Would you belive that a superior force such as god rules and governs you (as is belived in christianity)
What would be your concept of reality?
You are right we are materially attached to objects and people. We live for ourselves and our own experience yet we structure our life arounnd other objects of attachment.
You think your not attached?
even the people who realise this including me you and a majority of this forum are attached to most stuff
our food does nt become a need we over consume even when we assume not and thus it becomes an attachment.
we feel the need for love and companionship and cant stand been alone.we become attached to people to been needed and loved.
we fear to let our children live and experience cause of danger we become to over parental and thus become attached to our children
and much more
the question of what is really real will never be answered just assumed.
when we die we might believe that really real is the astral then mabye we will step up another step in the stages of reality and concept of god and relaise the next step is real
we can always discuss aspects of reality and question them as to make progress is to question
"the man who never questions makes no progress"
but in the end mabye reality is only temporary mabye nothing is real at all and only momentarily real to suit our needs.
mabye now this physical is real so we can learn our lessons needed
mabye in death that is real till we learn those lessons
mabye our dreams are real until we learn our lessons on waking and discard them.
Do we constantly discard reality and adopt another concept of relaity?
i see people do it all the time
I work with kurdish people who are coloured and islamic
one guy hated me cause i was white because his culure or background mabye conditioned him that way
at that time that was his reality to belive that i was bad because of my colour
i have worked with him for 6 year now and he loves me like a brother
so now he has discarded the above relaity and adopted another reality in which me and him are equal
do you agree that this example of reality proves that we discard and adopt reality constantly making relaity only momentary
what if your mum is a big green bogling with loads of eyes and when she looks at you ,you look like a big green bogling.
and the version of life that you see litrully only exists in your mind.
and its the universe that translates everything in between your minds so you both asume your dreaming the same dream
but infact your universes apart.
you see many facedancers in the astral and the universe translates them as a brother or a mother regardless of there true cosmetic. so why not in the waking life also
:NoY:
i dont understand noy? canu explain further please?
I don't think NoY understands NoY! :-D
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 11:39:10
hey xanth why would you have to reply to people with the answer "who cares". lol :lol:
Who cares! :D
lol because how can we progress in life and spirituality and even astral projection if we can not tell apart the real from unreal haha
then it must mean we all live in a dream world
but i have questianed myself many times, what is real and whos to say us humans have to listen to anyone but our selfs
but i guess APing just gives us a diffrent prespective from what we already know :)
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 12:34:12
haha you missed some other great sayings caterpillar woman
I didn't miss them. I just didn't mention them. ;)
My personal favourite is: There is no spoon.
;)
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 12:34:12You might think am crazy
Nah. I like The Matrix, too. ;)
I also recommend "The Truman Show", which is an excellent allegory for the struggle to break free from our "default" reality.
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 12:34:12We are in a world were we believe we have limited resources
Are we? Or do we just believe that, thus making it true in our reality?
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 12:34:12You think your not attached?
No. Though in recent weeks, my attachments have been dissolving rather rapidly and quite extensively, but I've been at this for some years now. I think I'm just ready for this to happen now.
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 12:34:12do you agree that this example of reality proves that we discard and adopt reality constantly making relaity only momentary
Well, we alter our reality to suit us, certainly. Breaking free of default reality entirely is another matter, though. Almost nobody does that, no matter how much they change their own reality.
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 16:25:54
i dont understand noy? canu explain further please?
there are three people one green one blue and one orange
from the green persons perspective there are three green people from the blue persons perspective there are three blue people
and from the orange persons perspective there are three orange people
maybe they cant comprehend anything else so the universe just delivers there cosmetic as a person like you
:NoY:
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 02, 2010, 17:01:13
lol because how can we progress in life and spirituality and even astral projection if we can not tell apart the real from unreal haha
If it's all subjective, then does it matter?
Yeah caterpillar lady there is "no spoon " is a great one and i can explain what i meant about "matrix philosophy lol".
You see the reason she says there is no spoon is because in the film the matrix is a computer programme and there made up of binary wich is 1/0 or higher or lower based programming software so she makes that staement to say look there is no spoon there is only the code that makes it look like a spoon because the code is the underlying source in everything in the matrix
now apply this to real life philosophy and replace the code with energy instead. so everything in this world is energy and even though cosmetically they might look diffrent than how you assumed energy to look in the end every thing is moulded by energy and is energy and will return to been just that ENERGY.
You seee how you can relate some of the philosophy from that film?
Noy thanks for explaining more and agree with what you said. Wat are face dancers and what do you think abour reality?
and xanth your right what does it matter its all sunjective but then again would you be saying that if you were washed away in the ocean with nobody except a raft would you say "well what does it matter its al subjective give it a few weeks i ll see land again" or would you realise that you are in a sticky situation and if you dont try and help your self nobody will help you unless you make the effort to be seen and her and pulled back a shore
thats how reality is .why would guides or spirit wanna help you realise your stuck in a sticky situation unless you first made the move to get seen and be heard and say look am ready to break these serville chains and face up to what this is all about and become a better person on the journey rather than been stuck continously in this world of ignorance
lol
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 03, 2010, 12:50:17
Yeah caterpillar lady there is "no spoon " is a great one and i can explain what i meant about "matrix philosophy lol".
You see the reason she says there is no spoon is because in the film the matrix is a computer programme and there made up of binary wich is 1/0 or higher or lower based programming software so she makes that staement to say look there is no spoon there is only the code that makes it look like a spoon because the code is the underlying source in everything in the matrix
now apply this to real life philosophy and replace the code with energy instead. so everything in this world is energy and even though cosmetically they might look diffrent than how you assumed energy to look in the end every thing is moulded by energy and is energy and will return to been just that ENERGY.
You seee how you can relate some of the philosophy from that film?
Noy thanks for explaining more and agree with what you said. Wat are face dancers and what do you think abour reality?
and xanth your right what does it matter its all sunjective but then again would you be saying that if you were washed away in the ocean with nobody except a raft would you say "well what does it matter its al subjective give it a few weeks i ll see land again" or would you realise that you are in a sticky situation and if you dont try and help your self nobody will help you unless you make the effort to be seen and her and pulled back a shore
thats how reality is .why would guides or spirit wanna help you realise your stuck in a sticky situation unless you first made the move to get seen and be heard and say look am ready to break these serville chains and face up to what this is all about and become a better person on the journey rather than been stuck continously in this world of ignorance
lol
There's drama... then there's dramaqueening. ;)
All I know is that I'd eventually end up on a deserted island where my only friend is a soccer ball I drew a face on named Fred. :)
that was a good movie it had tom haks in i think. what was it called again lol so i can buy the movie again lol :-D
Cast away, and his ballfriend was Wilson. I just saw it on tv a few days ago. :lol:
that was one crazy movie lol thanks for the title timandra.
You know i think in this thread the ideas we been talking about is....
Mabye;
mabye every one percieves reality diffrently and if they dot we are lited in the vocabulary we have to discribe our reality to compare it to anothers reality.
Mabye reality is monetary since we continously adopted other realitys.
and other ideas that users have contributed.
but i guess i jumped ahead of my self so now i decided to rewind and start from the fundamentals.
the fundamentals are:
How do you define real?
is real just limited to physical objects?
is real only what we can percieve ?
is nothing real because everything is just energy?
in the astral if you can instantly make objects apear are they real and if not why not?
if you dont class them as real is it because they are only momentary unil we will them away?
is our reality not only momentary does that make our reality not real?
everything is just moomentary cause its only energy and energy is forever moving and changing?
you know say there was a part of my house i never knew exsisted and i could nt access then ok it exsists but until i stumble upon it is it real? i mean real might only be real when we percieve it? the wall does nt know the floors real and the floor has nt got a clue if it exsists cause there not animated as such. so they cannot judge if it is real so then they must not exissts as such. but then a person comes in and acknowledges the floor as been real and so since it has enetered the scope of our perception it becomes real.
anyhow am tired lol
Each of us gives everything our own personal definition. That is why what is real is undefined without an observer. It's like dividing something by 0.
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 03, 2010, 12:50:17
You see the reason she says there is no spoon is because in the film the matrix is a computer programme and there made up of binary wich is 1/0 or higher or lower based programming software so she makes that staement to say look there is no spoon there is only the code that makes it look like a spoon because the code is the underlying source in everything in the matrix
Yes. I'm aware.
But it also applies to that which we think of as "reality". It's an illusion, too.
QuoteBut it also applies to that which we think of as "reality". It's an illusion, too.
I have also been thinking about that a lot. Several months ago I was reading something about it and that all that we experience here is an illusion, Maya. Then I thought: no way, this here is real, I see it, I feel it, I smell it, I hear it etc. No Maya. I was very recalcitrant. Then a few nights later I had a dream where I became lucid because numbers on a receipt kept changing. Then I thought: This can't be a dream! This is so real!" I knew because of the changing numbers it was a dream, but it felt more real than my daytime reality. I woke up because I was shocked :-o , and knew it wasn't a coincidence I had this lucid dream. I have been shown that a dream can feel as real as daytime reality, it just depends where your consciousness is. :-)
My look at it: all that exists is consciousness. So consciousness is real.
The individual divisions of consciousness (maya) is perceived as real from certain points within consciousness. The wider your awareness encompasses consciousness (I have no idea how to word that any better), the less "real" maya seems until it's all just illusion. I like to say "it's all real, just not in the way you think it is".
So "real" is dependent on where your perception is.
i dont understand stookie will you explain
If everything is consciousness... and consciousness is real...
everything (in whatever form it takes) = real. :)
Quote from: Xanth on February 05, 2010, 11:23:34
If everything is consciousness... and consciousness is real...
everything (in whatever form it takes) = real. :)
Yes and no. Or should I say "yin and yang"? Everything physical is absolutely real if you're perceiving it from the physical or close-to-physical. If your awareness is centered further away from the physical (bad phrasing again), the objective reality of the physical changes - it's still real, but more in a situational kind of way. Things that were "real" can become symbolism or have no reality to them at all. Nostalgia crashes. Or things you didn't recognize become very important or "real".
Shift awareness into pure consciousness (no description available), and consciousness becomes all that exists. The most complicated thing you can imagine becomes silence. Or emptiness. Everything and nothing. Yin and Yang.
I really should have put a "?" at the end of my post... cause it was more a question than a statement. LoL
That sounds cool stookie. Is this the same as just emptying your thoughts and mediationg without thinking at all just thinking about nothing. is this the same as what you were describing when you said "becomes silence".
thanks stookie thanks xanth n everyone else
Your question is very interesting. Someone told me that things will happen to me only if I believe. So what if I don't believe in anything? Does this mean that nothing will happen to me? but.. ah.. something is always happening right? For instance, if I see UFO's that means I see them because I believe in them? I won't see them if I don't believe in them. The existence of UFOs then depends on my belief in them. Does this mean that they are not real if I don't believe in them? I seem to be going around in circles; but this question of what is real and what isn't is really mind boggling.
I dont know if what am about to write is right am just speaking from my own personal oppinion and belief
I mean somethings inevitably happen to us. I mean I am born (no matter how much i try to stop my self been pushed out am gonna ome out either way so i guess i cant prevent that.
I die...I cant prevent that i mean even if i lived my life in a bubble where nothing could hurt me i d still die of old age.
I see a cat sittin next to a dog ...no matter how much i believe that the dog is gonna transfigure permantly into the shape of the cat which is sitting next to me. it will never happen.
I could stair at my wall and belive i have a million pound in my pocket but when i put my hand in my pocket i will still only have bass buttons....oh and sweets haha
so no reality does not depend on belive instead belive depends on reality.
reality is the interpretation of the things around you and happening .
belief is the anaylis of the reality(the things happening around you)
so what am trying to say is. say you see a bright light in the sky moving in circles for an hour.
no matter what you belief its still gonna be there cause it chooses to be there
i can then decide to believe it is a ufo or i can decide to belive it a lost aeroplane flying in circles or mabye an insane man experiencing what it feels like to fly in circles cause he is crazy and amuses himself with the inside joke that he is a fu**ing crazy cu*t haha
but either way that plane is still gonna be there.
so to be more specific i do not belive that the sighting of a ufo depends on whether you belive in them or not rather it depends on the data percieved from your sense and interpretted in to your reality is then anaylsised to become part of your believe and in what method you preform your anaylsis,
i mean no body can take choice away instead only try to alter anothers choice via persuasion or forceful acts but in the end the choice is always left to the chooser
so if i walk in the same room as you (no matter what you belive) our phrephiral sight and hearing and touch and the rest of your senses will be interpretted as there s a man in the room that you are in.
then your belive is how you anayliss what your brain has alrady interpretted . so you can belive i have come to kill you or help you. to talk or to fight but in the end of the day if i was there you could do nothing about it except ask me to leave because i would really be there no matter what you belived.
its the same with your ubo thought. you see it>interprett it>realise that your reallity consists of something that you can not interprett in acordance to anything you know>anaylsis> decide what you then belive it to be but no matter how you anaysis you mind has already decided something is there
hope i said that right?
anyone agree or disagree
Quote from: Fourthdimension on February 06, 2010, 22:38:05
hope i said that right?
anyone agree or disagree
Who can say... I believe that each of us creates our own realities in the manner in which we express ourselves in our daily lives.
Who knows...
You're all but a figment of my imagination anyways. :evil: :-D
Here's something that caught my eye:
Quoteits the same with your ubo thought. you see it>interprett it>realise that your reallity consists of something that you can not interprett in acordance to anything you know>anaylsis> decide what you then belive it to be but no matter how you anaysis you mind has already decided something is there
I've always stuck with something kinda similar:
You have "Percepts" ->sensory/bodily input from the physical world
You have "Concepts" ->the concepts of reality you've picked up since birth (such as ball=round)
You have "Thinking" ->which is the act that connects the closest "Concept" to the "Percept" being perceived.
When you don't have a concept to match a percept, new concepts (correct or incorrect) are born. This is the inner process in each of us that creates our reality.
If you like to read in length about this kind of stuff, I can recommend a decent book on the subject. I've read it about 7 times and learn something new every time.
hi stookie sorry for the short reply i have been out doing hadrians wall for 2 days camping in the snow and walking about 50 mile haha. what book would you recommend stookie
thanks