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QuoteOBE Experience:While laying down I was having trouble getting to sleep so thought I might experiment a bit. Went through my progressive relaxation routine until the heaviness overtook me and began using ROPE. Almost immediately I felt pressure in my solar plexus and tingling throughout my body. My chest began to vibrate which caught my focus and as I held my attention on the vibrations they sped up and moved throughout my body. I started to feel myself lifting up out of my body at this point but it wasn't quite that clear cut. I could feel the numbness in my physical body, the non-physical vibrations, and a bodily awareness moving outside my physical body all at the same time. During the whole process I also retained spatial awareness regarding the room I was in as well. It felt very much like moving outward.LD Experience:Was feeling restless while trying to fall asleep so thought I would play with my imagination a bit. I settled down into my usual sleeping position and started watching the mental imagery behind my closed eyes. Its always so random I wonder if this stuff is floating around in my mind all day. Most of it is cartoonish scenes mixed with constantly changing patterns of light. Suddenly a very realistic scene popped up. It was at first just a tree but it was so real I could have reached out and touched it. I looked down and could see the ground, looked up into a blue sky. Very realistic so I kept playing. At some point I must have drifted off to sleep because I don't recall a transition but I woke up in my imaginary woods scene. I knew it was a dream and I also knew I was creating it. I cant explain how I knew I was creating it, was just my sense or my feeling. I knew I was within a self created reality.
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11I don't want to rain on the parade, but I want you to build a strong mental model. A projection will be just like a dream, except you will have full control over it. You will be able to interact with the world and jump around. It is extremely, if not overly vivid.
Quote from: Xanth on June 16, 2012, 20:58:55Described by Monroe as falling asleep, yet remaining consciously aware.I fully agree with this sentiment and experience it in that fashion too.These are the definitions which Robert and Frank mention... and which I fully support.Is the phasing Frank did any different from what Monroe suggested in his third bookfrom what I say when I say "Phasing"?
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11On the note of Pauli and Xanth:Pauli, if it is sources you are looking for, Xanth is a source. He has scouredand read every post for years of the most prolific subjective collaborationof OBE experiences, to my knowledge, ever compiled, this site.
Quote from: Contenteo on June 17, 2012, 00:43:11To Robin:Unfortunately, I wouldn't call either of these projections. My definitionof a astral projection is a full phase into F21. Neither of these sound likeF21 experiences.
QuoteBut that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
Quote from: Szaxx on June 17, 2012, 08:43:14Hi,An example from Frank...
Quote from: Stillwater on June 17, 2012, 08:39:09Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's . . .Perhaps they are the same thing, I don't know...
Quote from: Pauli2 on June 17, 2012, 07:34:25But that's not good enough for me, as Xanth seems to think LD and OBE are the same things,which I (with my limited experience) have to reject.
QuoteIn an OBE, even for the few seconds before I've lost the OBE into an LD, I can say myOBEs had completely different feelings to them, than becoming lucid in a dream. Being OBEwas like being awake in real life, just with the difference that I knew there was somethingdifferent going on. My mind was crisp clear and I was myself. My poor lack of any deeperexperiences will not change that fact.
Quote from: Stillwater on June 17, 2012, 08:39:09They may be similar experiences, along a spectrum. Comparing OBE's I've had to the few LD's, it is a matter of coherence and clarity, partially; that, and I find LD's seem to have a sort of narritive to them, even if I percieve myself to be in control. OBE, while some I have had were narritive-driven, are a bit more existential, in that what happens seems to be up to where your mind wants to take things.
QuoteStillwater,you write "the same thing"?Do you really consider LDs and OBEs being the _same_ thing?Or do you mean "similar" thing?
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18The body appeared to be asleep, or slightly out of phase of the physical,while the mind was awake, which is what the physiological date showedwhen measuring the subjects. They called the state focus 10 (Mind awake/Body Asleep).
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18Perhaps this was because some participants reported experiences, like different imagery,but still found themselves connected to the physical body, which was not entirely asleep.Either way, the definitions of focus 10 did not seem as strict anymore as before.To resolve some of that confusion, I much later made a distinction between a light anddeeper focus 10 in my focus 10 paper. Although it was not ideal, since the term"body asleep" itself did not fully apply anymore, at least not in a light focus 10.But back to the earlier history of Monroe. The concept of focus 12 was introduced,perhaps in an attempt to resolve the same confusion.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18It was also for the same reason that it was believed that the OBE either occured infocus 10, focus 12, or perhaps somewhere in between. The gateway tapes, if theyhave not changed since I have seen them, reflect that with out of body exercises bothfor focus 10 and 12.
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18Then later on, in the 90s, LaBerge comes along with the term WILD, which refersto anything wake induced, after which you start to dream lucidly. The classic OBEfell within in the scope of that label. . .
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 16:02:40Where did your friend get the information about focus 11?
Quote from: Major Tom on June 17, 2012, 12:31:18Mind you, the label WILD can include the classic seperation, which iswake-induced as well, but Frank intially said he sort of just found himselfprojected or catupulted into an "astral environment", which is the case formost lucid dreamers as well who practice WILDS.
Quote from: Lionheart on June 17, 2012, 17:42:49 Wow, now I can understand why I was told to drop the labels. This is almost like a conversation on Religion, where everyone is right to a point, but has their own way of saying it.