yea, what would you call it if he projected in a dream. Like lucid obe?
I believe (through my own experience) that OBE's happen frequently, but we do not actually remember them.
I'd put them into 3 groups :
1) Those that we have absolutely no recollection of. (95%)
2) Those that we do remember, but dismiss as a dream. (4%)
3) Those where our conciousness is crystal clear. We are completely aware of what is happening, and the experience is our "reality", no different from our physical reality. (1%)
The percentages I quoted are merely guesses.
I'm guessing that for some reason, our conciousness isn't able to "tune in" to the experience 99% of the time, which makes the classic OBE so rare for most people, including myself. However, when it does tune in, we find ourselves in a seperate reality.
It follows that the "OBE within a dream" should not be disregarded or ignored, but instead is a valid experience. I believe that fundamentally the OBE is the same, whether you are fully lucid or not. But there is something, perhaps seperate, within the OBE mechanism, or the way that an individual's conciousness interprets the experience, which often gets in the way of recall.
regards
Mark
so just becuase the OBE clearly isn't "real" becuase it's within a dream, it's still valid?
Example: I'm in the bandroom and for whatever reason, decide to project. I lay down, close my eyes, instant vibrations, I'm out... I'm not sure where I exited into, but I'm out, and I do stuff, then I "wake up" back into the bandroom and continue dreaming about being in the bandroom.
All of the above is a dream, and the OBE would be a dream, or at least, projection/lucid dream, within a dream.
This kind of negates it doesn't it? It's just basically a form of attaining brief lucidity. You could say I was actually really projecting in real life and exiting my body and that's how my mind represented it, but how so? IF I'M DREAMING.... then I'm already out of my body to begin with?
Or... when you dream does your astral body just stay floating above your body? Is the only time it's free to explore when you actually initiate a projection? This doesn't make much sense though given that I think you are IN your "astral" body so to speak, while dreaming...?
I still think there needs to be lots of debate and discussion on the terms lucid / dream / OBE , and how people experience and distinguish between them.
quote:
This kind of negates it doesn't it? It's just basically a form of attaining brief lucidity.
In my view, the difference between a lucid dream, and an OBE, is merely one of perception : the individual who is having an OBE perceives that he / she is not in their physical body. Whereas, the lucid dreamer knows that they are lying in their bed, all along.
By stating this, I am not denigrating the OBE experience : on the contrary, I'm saying that we are perhaps dismissing dreams / lucid dreams because they don't appear as valuable.
quote:
All of the above is a dream, and the OBE would be a dream, or at least, projection/lucid dream, within a dream.
I believe that an OBE can happen as a brief interlude within a regular dream, just like in your example. Often, these are discounted as meaningless.
Its very easy to dismiss something as a "dream", unless it follows the textbook examples of OBE's that you have read about in books etc. And even when I've floated out of my body, in full conciousness, and returned to it, I still ask myself "was that a dream?", all the time knowing that it wasn't.
OBE is within a dream, and so is normal reality. Thats why telekinesis is possible.
Beavis, I'm not sure about the telekinesis business !
But what you are saying fits in with Castaneda's account of Don Juan's explanations in "The art of dreaming".
Basically, he said our shared physical reality is due to the fact that mankind's perception is fixed out of habit in one place. Through training, this perception can be moved to many other equally real/ valid realms.
From his point of view, the physical world is a "dream" which we are accustomed to.
i do not believe the physical is a dream.......
because, if it is, then we would all be lucid, wouldn't we? Then how come we can't fly? I've tried.... I've tried to move things with my mind.. and it just doesn't work.
One could argue that the difference is PERCEPTION, when you "KNOW" that your body is sleeping, you are removed from any sense of limitation and therefore it would be easier to manipulate the dream reality that you are in, and this explains why it's hard/impossible to fly in the real world.
But I would wager as one becomes more and more familiar with the unknown and the dynamics of altering realities (in this case, dream realities) he would be able to loosen his native realities hold on him and be able to start to achieve things in which he can achieve in dreams and altered states of consciousness.
Where as I might not believe that I can levitate myself right now, I do not always 100% believe it in dreams either, and am presented with self doubts, yet I can still manage to get myself up off the ground by at least a little bit before I fail and fall back down.
I cannot, however, do so here. Why? If life is but a dream then one who is exceptionally accustomed to the dream environment and bending its limitations should be easily able to do so in reality.
The only explanation is that there is some sort of ladder system of realities.
___something higher?
___physical reality
___extremely vivid dream/OBE reality (hard to manipulate things)
___somewhat vivid (lucid dream and most astral experiences)
___normal dream vividness (lucid dream and most astral experiences)
___not too vivid (lucid dream and most astral experiences)
___wonderland like (some lucid dream and astral experiences)
.............
etc, keeps on going down.
The further you step down, the more control you have. Kind of like, say, if you went to a lower plane with a bunch of primitive creatures you could probably be able to exert a lot of control and influence over them, but if you stepped up to a higher plane, you wouldn't even be able to process what you are experiencing very well.
And like, whatever ladder rung you reside on in waking life is pretty much where your limitations are set... but maybe can with much work, be deviated or broken?
I don't know.
You could also argue that during waking life your chakras are usually closed and this is why, in combination with the need of an excessive amount of energy due to being in the physical, you cannot manipulate things.
holy reality i do not believe the physical is a dream.......
because, if it is, then we would all be lucid, wouldn't we? Then how come we can't fly? I've tried.... I've tried to move things with my mind.. and it just doesn't work.
You cant do those things in most dreams either.
One could argue that the difference is PERCEPTION, when you "KNOW" that your body is sleeping, you are removed from any sense of limitation and therefore it would be easier to manipulate the dream reality that you are in, and this explains why it's hard/impossible to fly in the real world.
Its harder to manipulate here than most dreams because of the high energy density here.
But I would wager as one becomes more and more familiar with the unknown and the dynamics of altering realities (in this case, dream realities) he would be able to loosen his native realities hold on him and be able to start to achieve things in which he can achieve in dreams and altered states of consciousness.
Right.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9288
The further you step down, the more control you have. Kind of like, say, if you went to a lower plane with a bunch of primitive creatures you could probably be able to exert a lot of control and influence over them, but if you stepped up to a higher plane, you wouldn't even be able to process what you are experiencing very well.
I agree. It is a continuous range of energy densities.
There is an awareness sometimes in a dream, a feeling of excileration(sp), of joy, expansion, freedom, of now I am free. It is a feeling like non other which to me is what the feeling of being and realizing that you are out of body is all about...too bad I have been able to reach this from a semi-conscious trance state, the closest I've come is a falling sensation.
AndreaXYZ, I have had that feeling while awake. I doubt I would have had any effect, but at the time I was scared that if I thought about earth's position in our solar system, I might knock it out of its orbit.
I feel disconnected from everything a lot actually
at the a perfect circle concert thursday I all of a sudden felt that way and I was so scared that I was going to "wake up" into a different reality and miss the concert... I wanted to experiment with the feeling so badly, to see if I could do anything or push myself somewhere else, but I didn't want to miss the show.
Sadly the only times I ever feel that way are when I'm in the presence of other people and don't have opportunity to meditate or try to jump in the air and stay there, etc....
anyway
Beavis:
"You cant do those things in most dreams either."
I'd wager at least 25-75% of my dreams are lucid, which laregely depends on whether or not I intend to have them or not. I can have them every night sometimes.. usually multiples each night.
So yes, I can.
Hi Shadow,
Sounds like something I experience pretty commonly. I have a couple of ideas...
First off, many many experienced OBErs realize at some point that they seem to have many "bodies", more than just a physical vehicle and one non-physical vehicle. Robert Monroe's descriptions of getting out of body were to roll out of his body, then to roll out of that body (the first body he ended up in was less dynamic and harder to move - probably a kind of etheric-astral cross) and continue.
Secondly, dreaming about dreaming isn't unusual to me (especially when I am focusing lots of my consciousness on the process of lucid dreaming or astral projection), nor is coming out in an astral projection from within a non-lucid dream.
Sometimes I think we have these experiences just to allow us to continue questioning our ideas of a solid reality (to which we often conform our ideas about nonphysical experience, ie thinking we are one entity with one physical and one nonphysical vehicle, rather than a collective of energies, consciousnesses and thought processes. This can allow for non-physical experiences without helping break down restrictive mental patterns, allowing for more varied experiences in and out of body and a greater understanding of the working of the whole.)
JP
Hi Shadow, I keep getting the same kind of experience when I try to AP. The only problem is I can never quite manage to do it, I just go all shaky and have difficulty breathing. I also have no control of my thoughts. Then I go no further and I just remain in sleep paralysis for about an hour.
Could you or any one else give me any advice on actually reaching an OBE?
Thanks KDC
Wow, this has become a very interesting topic.
I have always wondered what Monroe meant when he talked about leaving a second body. If anyone has any helpful links or insights on that subject I would like to hear it [:)]
To add to the original post, I have had tons of these dreams, I call them "Mock OOBEs" because they result from a non lucid dream and aren't very vivid. I loose control as soon as im out, but the lifting out always feels very real like when I consciously do it, the vibrations knock many into some kind of awareness, but i never can I hold it[:(]
Hi,
this is my dream/obe experience:
While i was sleeping.. at a certain moment i see my face near me, it was composed of a kind of light blue-little blue. Next i decided to see my hand and my legs, and these looked at the same manner!.
So i decided to jump out, and for some moment i floated.
This some days ago.
But the last night a new experience happened to me...
Ciao By Evilcry
There is an exellent book called the art and practice of astral project by Opiel. In it is a projection technique called the dream method. It was the method which provided me with my first projection. The idea is to try and remain on the boderline between awake and sleep when you go yoto bed.
Just as the nonsense begins to occupy your field of vision and you accept it as being normal! Try to hold your critical judgement in tact and decide whether what you see is acceptable, or nonsense. Say to yourself as each image or voice crops up "acceptable" or "nonsense".
As this goes on very close to falling asleep, you will enter the dream state as normal, but will carry with you your critical capabilities and your ability to decide whether something is nonsense or not. Inevitably what this means it that you will wake up in your dream. The most telling experience that you will realise that there is another you tucked up in bed at home. Enjoy!!
i was dreaming well at least i think i was dreaming then i was like in my bed and my sis the there then i decided to go to sleep and i do but then i feel like i know im dreaming then all of sudden my body starts shaking and im like man im astral projecting so i somehow induce the vibrations and i float right out of my body and start like swimmming around in the room and in the air wierd huh...