enlightenment

[tripnonastral]

so after we die we usually come back to become reborn again. the never ending cycle? anyways, to escape this "curse" one must gain spiritual enlightenment? im not really sure what enlightenment is...ive read up on it but for the slower people like me, i still dont understand it. can anyone break it down for me?

and i mean besides enlightenment ending the life cycle of reincarnation. And how do people become enlightened? I read that meditation is a way to get closer. anwyays...just wondering as usual

[MindFreak]

To become enlightened, be awakened, you must look into your own mind. It cannot be found outside in the physical world. We normally follow our thoughts endlessly and associate who we are with our thoughts, which really just stir up the mind. If you think about it our minds are always racing with thoughts that are almost 100% random crap.
In the begining stages you first experience Kensho, or Satori, which is "seeing into your true nature", your Buddha nature.
Look back at where the thoughts are coming from. Look at your mind, look for the part which is unmoving, not the endless thoughts always racing, but that part of your mind which is always there, the observer. You might get a strage feeling when you look back at yourself like that. You kind of realize that you are not who you think, your personality isnt really you. This is a tiny glimpse of Bodhi. But that is the path, your own mind, not in the external world.
Mindfulness and meditation go hand in hand.

[J.K.]

Perhaps another way to describe it is "the end of thatness."

Consider if you will, trippin, that this world is composed of subject and object.  Both are necessary for this reality to exist.  If there were subject but no object reality as we know it could not manifest.  If the were object but no subject to perceive it it could not exist.  But here's the catch.  This separation of subject and object is not actually reality.  It's Maya, or illusion.  In reality subject and object are both one.

When that state of oneness is realized we can call it enlightenment.

Or at least that's one stab at describing it...  

[Jo'ogn]

Other "sources" explain, that there is no "enlightenment", but remembrance.

Some "religious POVs" believe in a "circle of life", or karma, or re-incarnation. Maybe you are "slow in understanding" because those concepts just do not really resonate with you, as they did not with me in the past. So perhaps you might also want to look at other "concepts of becoming".

Meditation is a "method", "we" seem to like methods and techniques, or certain substances one has to take...

So to ~my~ relief ^_^;  those "channels", or "energy exchanges" explain, that methods are not necessary to archive certain "goals". That doesn't mean, that "methods" are "wrong", no! They ~can~ be indeed helpful. But they are not absolutely necessary. For that reason you might find, that each individual has their very own.

As MindFreak pointed out, pay attention to yourself, your "subjective inside world"! There is not only thought, but also emotions, listen to those.

And as J.K. said, the "objective outside" is not separated from the "subjective". You might find that your subjective emotions infact are reflected in the objective "outside" world that you perceive.

[Astral Projection]

This is very interesting topic. I'm interested why is curse present? And when we escape this "curse" and escape reincarnation process, what happens next? We can go "heaven\hell\Valhalla\Nav..." or maybe astral and other higher planes?

[MindFreak]

I dont think what happens to an enlightened being after they die can be understood by an unenlightened person. We use concepts we are familiar with to try to describe these things and compare them with something, but enlightenment does away with all such concepts.

[Astral Projection]

I dont think what happens to an enlightened being after they die can be understood by an unenlightened person. We use concepts we are familiar with to try to describe these things and compare them with something, but enlightenment does away with all such concepts.

Maybe only enlightened persons can understand what happens after death. Unfortunately death is one big mystery to everyone  

[AndrewTheSinger]

Hehe, existence is not to be a prison, but an exploration of many aspects of the creation. There is no reincarnation cycle, we're passing by here and there, you come back if you want to, no one will force you.

[jilola]

what happens to an enlightened person is that one is exchanged with an other one.
what happens to an ordinary person is that one is exchanged with an other one.

Enlightened people die, have died and will die. The process is the same, the perception of it is not.

All of the techniques and methods of meditation have a common aim and that is the widening of the perception of reality. To be more specific the widening of the percetion of self as a part of the reality.

Put into words it doesn't seems like anything to strive for or anything special at all. Which evetually is the way it is. A good way to think of ourselves s to think we're lamps covered by layers of blankets and sheets. We still shine underneath. The task is to shed the blankets and sheets.

Death is just the end of one point of view to reality. Much like a wave appears and disappears. Nobody thinks the ocean will cease to exist when a wave sinks back.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[J.K.]

..widening of the perception of self as a part of the reality.

Nice way to put that, jilola..

I thought I might also point to this.  It's taken from one of my favorite passages.

Realization

I have been asked to explain what realization is, but if it could be explained it would not be realization. While you are kneading the dough of your thoughts, you cannot enjoy the bread of realization.

Confucius said:
My friends, do you think I was hiding it from you?
No! I would never do such a thing!
It was only that you were unable to see it.

-----------------------

In This Lifetime

I could show you my clenched fist and open it like this—and bid you all good night. Unfortunately, however, educated on this side of the Pacific, you Westerners are somewhat deficient in intuitive matters, and so I am forced to give as a substitute, dualistic explanations, though that's not at all the way to express Zen.

           Man began by assuming that the things about which he wished to learn existed outside of himself. Wondering what that is, he established so-called "science," which is the study of thatness. Soon, however, he discovered that his science explained only how things are, not what they are, and so man turned inward. Seeking to understand what this is, he established psychology and epistemology. Together these constitute the study of thisness. But, paradoxically enough, when the mind itself thus became an object of study, it ceased being this and became that. The experience of true thisness had been rendered impossible by the very nature of man's science (which can only understand thatness).

           Of course Zen monks in China and Japan do not traffic at all in thisness or thatness. Somehow they manage to live quite happily and peacefully, for all that! Do you want to know the trick? They dwell in the region of what is known as suchness..  

More:
http://www.shambhalasun.com/Archives/Features/2000/Mar00/Talks&Poems.htm

[Jo'ogn]

It is fascinating, how similar things can be put into so many different words... And in terms of "suchness" been "distorted", so that it is split into "thatness" and "thisness"... by thinking...

The act of meditation seems to me a "method of silence", to quiet the (noisy) thinker in the "objective part" of this dimension - which is me - to be able to listen to the (more silent) "subjective part" - which is me, too.

I might be able to pass through the veils (a bit like the covers jilola speaks about). I still believe that experiencing ~this~ dimension is not a "failure", or a "karmic (necessary) task". I believe it is nothing but a variety of consciousness - which I am part of, or which is I - exploring itself.

I came to understand, that those "veils of separation", i.e. this seemingly isolated physical world - as opposed to some non-phyiscal energetic state of being, are intentionally set by ourselves to "intensivy" our experience of ~this~ dimension.

Like one doesnt want to know the end of a movie in advance to not spoiling the experience. To not having a walk-through for a tantalizing videogame, but to find the solutions ourselves, even if it might be "painfully annoying", but we choose this "pain", for it is as much fun in that process of becoming.

So if the veils of this camouflage system would just drop and we'd see ourselves, bared of time, of space, of karma, of judgment... Just the Love behind everything... Where would be the drama left? The fear of the flesh? We would deprive this reality of a very worthwhile feature, like entering cheats into a videogame, to have "infinite lives", or to "not taking hits", opening all "coded doors" etc...

Yet, it seems as if in this period of the century - we as individuals - open (in a global sense) to the chance of "cheating". Which had not be done in such amounts, in what we consider the historic past.

It's not like I believe we are, or were not allowed, I just see it this way, that it was not our desire to do so (in other foci/lives/incarnations). But now we (seemingly all of us, awarely or not) steer deliberatly into a new age of "realization", remembering how we - in a manner of speaking -in "the beginning" set up this "game-plane". Opening our awareness to the option to experience physical lifetime differently.

[J.K.]

It is fascinating, how similar things can be put into so many different words... And in terms of "suchness" been "distorted", so that it is split into "thatness" and "thisness"... by thinking...

Here Here to that..  

..and also your reference to the game, Jo'ogn.  We should have cookies and tea and talk about the Tree of Life - lol.  Perhaps you've seen my sig-line.

I thought it might also be worth mentioning, perhaps once more, that this subject of 'enlightenment' is by no means confined to the venue of the East.   It's at the heart of Christianity, but simply unexplored.

Consider:

I AM
I AM THAT I AM
I AM THAT

I'm not sure what could be more central to Christianity than an understanding of that. - Ask most pastors what it means and you'll find that it is largely unexplored.  Instead, everything has been replaced with eternal preservation of the I-concept (i.e. the ego, the idea of a separated self, everlasting, my "me" victorious in death).

I think it's understandable why the masses would cling to that.

Consider:

"He who seeks to save his self shall lose it, but he who gives up his self for my sake shall find it."

In more secular terms:

"Wouldn't it be wild if we all woke up one day and realized all we'd really been doing all this time was looking in a mirror?"

That last one cracks me up...    

[Jo'ogn]

..and also your reference to the game, Jo'ogn.  We should have cookies and tea and talk about the Tree of Life - lol.  Perhaps you've seen my sig-line.

one fine day, sure. If i happen to be around "the states" again, or you over in germany Somewhere s.o. refered already to the "game" analogy, maybe it was you.

"He who seeks to save his self shall lose it, but he who gives up his self for my sake shall find it."

What has disturbed me in practically all religious approaches is/was, that somewhere they usually all hold an element of "punishment", chastising, or like the topic suggest, the need of getting "better", enlightened.

"We" seem to have a strong emphasized sense of "self-discounting" and lack of trust in our own worth. Does anyone "reach for the stars", or believes in having those powers that are lifted up in the personifications of any kind of "deity" it is frowned upon. Science included.

That's why I find more "relief" in those completely free concepts of "I create my own reality". Even if I have no longer anyone to blame for my own problems  

[J.K.]

What has disturbed me in practically all religious approaches is/was, that somewhere they usually all hold an element of "punishment", chastising, or like the topic suggest, the need of getting "better", enlightened.

"We" seem to have a strong emphasized sense of "self-discounting"

Hey Jo'ogn.....  

Just a couple of thoughts - IMHO only.

There are several ways to look at this.  Your post paints a stroke across several different topics.  However, I'll start with the most simple one which is "self-discounting."

Man began asking why.  "Why do all these terrible things happen to me? - I pray to God, I lead the best life I can, and nevertheless these bad things happen."  The recent visit by Katrina probably gives us a good example.

In those religions where God is seen as an individual (i.e. a projection of ourselves) when there is no answer after a while the only thing man is  left to do is blame himself. - It pretty much falls into the same category of "God move in mysterious ways" - which is the same thing as saying that our philosophy and theology completely break down at this point.  Again, all that is left to do is to blame one's self (or worse blame your neighbor). - Think Katrina.

I find it interesting to note that the words "original sin" are not even mentioned in the Bible.  We got that from St. Augustine some hundreds and hundreds of years later.

There's also another problem with this blaming of our self...  How can an all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing God continually create perfect plans that fail? - And why would an all knowing, all loving God become so angry at the failure of "His own creation" that he chose to destroy it and even the 'creepy thing.'

Was it a failure of the painting or the painter?

I do not propose to suggest that I can answer, but I will propose that this idea of self-discounting (i.e. blaming ourselves) is riddled with conceptual problems from the get go.

--------

Now, another subject, "enlightenment."

You mentioned enlightenment being seen as a better state than this, and surely it is seen this way even by me.  However, I'm reminded that's really an improper use of the word.  To use the 'better' is to quite markedly evoke the concept of duality.  Enlightenment then is not anything that is better or worse than.  Enlightenment is simply reality - what is - being (devoid of any concepts of better or worse).

Out beyond ideas of rightdoing
and wrongdoing there is a field.
I'll meet you there.
- Rumi

So what about the dream, maya, this world?

Well, again, I'll refer to my tag-line.  

It's a game.  In the end you spin a football.

Might as well have some fun while we're here..  

being mindful of karma, of course..

[Jo'ogn]

IMHO only.

that always goes w/o saying ^_^

Your post paints a stroke across several different topics.

Isn't the whole idea to "drop the veils of separation"? When - in the eyes of chaos-science - a butterfly somewhere in this world might have "caused" Katrina, it might hint, that it doesn't help understanding to take things apart. Like looking at a drop of water doesnt explain the sea. If I create my individual (as opposed to science's one objective for all) reality through my perception, then there is not a single drop of anything, that doesnt influence/is not influenced by - the "sea of me".

Man began asking why.

one of the most familar questions, that interestingly enough seems to give the least satisfactory answer to the one that wonders about any "why".

"Why do all these terrible things happen to me? - I pray to God, I lead the best life I can, and nevertheless these bad things happen."  

Perhaps things do not "happen" to us, perhaps there is no (such) entity on the other side of the prayer. Perhaps there is no such thing - in the sense of "duality" - as "the best life", or "bad things"

(i.e. a projection of ourselves)

Yet, usually casted outside of ourselves

all that is left to do is to blame one's self (or worse blame your neighbor)

That leaves mankind completely out of options, a vicious circle at that.

How can an all knowing, all powerful, and all seeing God continually create perfect plans that fail?

Under the premise, that there is sth like "perfection" (which to finally meet must be pretty creepy >_<; )

why would an all knowing, all loving God become so angry at the failure of "His own creation" that he chose to destroy it

Coming to think of it... mankind has gotten pretty funny, if not absurd ideas in the making of their personification of some god.

Was it a failure of the painting or the painter?

If there is such a thing as "failure"? - define "a failure"!

To use the 'better' is to quite markedly evoke the concept of duality.

Quite accurately put "Duality" does seem to be very much intertwined with anything of our physical reality: plus/minus, male/female, small/big, black/white, day/night, proton/electron, healthy/deadly, up/down, ... (u got the point)

Enlightenment is simply reality - what is - being (devoid of any concepts of better or worse).

Let's cling the tea mugs and drink to preferances!  \^o^/ (as opposed to duality)

So what about the dream, maya, this world?

I dont know about this "dream".

Might as well have some fun while we're here.. being mindful of karma, of course..

Yeah, more fun, less seriousness! Just no karma for me  :confused: