Have had about a year and a half hiatus from projecting/LDing which has been very hard for me. I've still been trying hard at my techniques as always, but literally haven't had a single experience in over a year and a half now. I've pretty much given up hope.
Then I was listening to the Joe Rogan Podcast the other day and they were talking about how they trigger Lucid Dreams by taking acetylcholine, which is a chemical the brain produces during sleep. Apparently it triggers very durable lucid dreams. One guy on the podcast even mentioned that going to sleep with a nicotine patch on which triggers LD's for him.
I did some research online and found a pill called "Galantamine" which has been called the "Lucid Dream Pill". You're supposed to take it in the middle of the night after some REM sleep, and it produces higher doses of Acetylcholine in your brain which triggers very long, durable lucid dreams. I ordered some and am going to give it a try.
Has anyone here had any experience with Galantamine, Acetylcholine or Nicotine patches to trigger lucid dreams?
I used Galantamine which works by preventing the breakdown of acetylcholine in the brain. It is recommended to take it together with choline or Vitamin B supplements. I did both.
Yes, it works. It has effects. Projections were different for me though, mostly I had problems with control then. It wasn't too good for me. Some interesting energetic and mind split experiences also resulted. For example I had more SP experiences, I felt my body more often while "out". Also sometimes felt a 'crack' in my head/brain during the initial phase. But it is not to worry about.
If you do not manage to lucid dream/project, you might still get interesting intense dreams.
There is a phase in the morning when you feel really good in your neuron system. It's also a bit like a 'drug' for me. But it lasts only short while.
I still do not recommend it and do not take it today, unless on very rare occasions because I still have some rest left before the shelf date so to speak.
One should learn it the 'real' way. You consciousness is enough. Keep up the training and it will return. I myself do not have a lot of experiences too like you. But it is because I am too focused with this physical life at the moment.
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 09, 2016, 18:52:28
Have had about a year and a half hiatus from projecting/LDing which has been very hard for me. I've still been trying hard at my techniques as always, but literally haven't had a single experience in over a year and a half now. I've pretty much given up hope.
Then I was listening to the Joe Rogan Podcast the other day and they were talking about how they trigger Lucid Dreams by taking acetylcholine, which is a chemical the brain produces during sleep. Apparently it triggers very durable lucid dreams. One guy on the podcast even mentioned that going to sleep with a nicotine patch on which triggers LD's for him.
I did some research online and found a pill called "Galantamine" which has been called the "Lucid Dream Pill". You're supposed to take it in the middle of the night after some REM sleep, and it produces higher doses of Acetylcholine in your brain which triggers very long, durable lucid dreams. I ordered some and am going to give it a try.
Has anyone here had any experience with Galantamine, Acetylcholine or Nicotine patches to trigger lucid dreams?
I never use anything and don't intend to. If your method isn't producing results then it's time to change it. Try reading a book until you fall asleep. The book drops away and you let it do so keeping the awareness of yourself awake as you drift off into the blackness. This has produced some interesting results unintentionally.
It may help break the dead spot.
Thanks for the advice guys. That's some good perspective. I'm gonna try these pills for a while and see if it doesn't help or spark some LD's later down the road when I stop using them. I also just honestly miss projecting and LDing so much, I just want to experience it again. If I had to go under an IV to experience it again at this point I would. I'll also try combining some B vitamins and acetylcholine as well to see how that affects things. Will also report back here with the results.
Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 19, 2016, 04:59:40
Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly? Guess we'll never know.
And therein lies the problem with popping pills.
I agree with Xanth. There are pills that are not proven to work. There are pills that say they can work but do not say they do work. It is not scientifically proven. Sounds like a waste of money to me. Sorry you may get offended by that.
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 19, 2016, 04:59:40
Update: It worked! I had my first lucid dream in over a year the first night I took Galantamine! I heard the loud "ringing noise" in my ear in the middle of the night, focused on it until it became jet engine loud, and then poof! I rolled out of my body and was in the dream world! I flew around with crazed excitement, shot energy blasts out of my hands like dragon ball z, and climbed up buildings. I sort of slipped back into a dream for a while on accident, and then remembered I was dreaming again. After that, the experienced ended. I'm going to take them again tonight (you're only supposed to take them 3 nights a week). Will update tomorrow if I have another LD.
Congratulations! Were you wide awake when you started hearing the "ringing noise"? If so, subsequently focusing on the sound and then "rolling out" from the waking state would constitute a full blown OBE/AP projection of consciousness from the waking state... which I prefer to differentiate from the Lucid Dream methods. Quickly devolving into and LD is common but still does not change my personal method of dichotomy for these sorts of experiences.
I do not really have a problem with using herbs or pills to nudge someone over the hump. Especially if they are suffering a really long dry spell. A year and a half?...yikes!.... If the pill works on the first try after that long I think it is pretty safe to say it was the pill or at least a placebo effect. Either way... probably worth it. As long as you get back in the groove and stop using the pills shortly thereafter, what's the harm?
I am curious to try Dreamleaf (Ingredients: 5-HTP, Mugwort, Huperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Choline Bitartrate ) but with all that going on I wonder about unknown side effects.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 20, 2016, 00:23:04
Congratulations! Were you wide awake when you started hearing the "ringing noise"? If so, subsequently focusing on the sound and then "rolling out" from the waking state would constitute a full blown OBE/AP projection of consciousness from the waking state... which I prefer to differentiate from the Lucid Dream methods. Quickly devolving into and LD is common but still does not change my personal method of dichotomy for these sorts of experiences.
I do not really have a problem with using herbs or pills to nudge someone over the hump. Especially if they are suffering a really long dry spell. A year and a half?...yikes!.... If the pill works on the first try after that long I think it is pretty safe to say it was the pill or at least a placebo effect. Either way... probably worth it. As long as you get back in the groove and stop using the pills shortly thereafter, what's the harm?
I am curious to try Dreamleaf (Ingredients: 5-HTP, Mugwort, Huperzine-A, Alpha GPC, Choline Bitartrate ) but with all that going on I wonder about unknown side effects.
Thanks for the input and encouragement! It definitely was because of the pills, not due to "wanting it more" or some kind of placebo effect. I've actively been practicing and trying every week for a year and a half now with no luck. I would have given my right arm to project/LD again, so I'm very thankful for these pills to say the least.
As far as the projection goes, I'm not totally sure to be honest. I'm never sure if I'm "projecting" or "Lucid Dreaming" because it happens the same way every time. it's the only method that's ever worked for me. I sort of "wake up" in the midst of light sleep to the "high pitched ringing noise" and I focus on it, it gets insanely loud, and then POOF. The noise stops and I do the "roll out method" and thenI'm in the midst of some foggy dream world. Is that astral projection? Or Lucid Dreaming? I don't know to be honest.
I think I was a bit hard saying it was a waste of money. I would like to say it is great you had a lucid dream. I am happy for you. There is no harm in taking tablets if if it not harmful to your health. In time you will know if it works or not.
Quote from: Astralsuzy on July 19, 2016, 21:34:33
I agree with Xanth. There are pills that are not proven to work. There are pills that say they can work but do not say they do work. It is not scientifically proven. Sounds like a waste of money to me. Sorry you may get offended by that.
Many people around the world use them. I use(d) them, but not anymore. From my (past) experience with them and others I can say with quite some certainty that they work beyond placebo. If you did a scientific lab trial and chose two groups, then put the same number of aspiring APers to go to sleep in each group, one with a fake placebo pill, one with galantamine. You would definitely and most certainly get a far higher success rate with the verum group (the one taking galantamine). I'd bet a whole lot of money on it. :-)
Quote from: Xanth on July 19, 2016, 11:58:11
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly? Guess we'll never know.
And therein lies the problem with popping pills.
If we measured all of the things we do that have a positive effect on our ability to project and catalogued them as dependencies where would it end? Some hypotheticals such as: I depend on my vegetarian diet to have the energy to project; I depend on natural extracts like 5-HTP to help chemical balance when sleeping; I use the wake and back to bed method to prime my mind because projecting normally is too difficult; reduce to absurdum.
I don't like the idea of having dependencies, but having experiences vs not having them seems like a step forward to me.
Quote from: Xanth on July 19, 2016, 11:58:11
Now the problem becomes... did you have the projection because of the pills or because you wanted it badly? Guess we'll never know.
And therein lies the problem with popping pills.
There is no problem. :-P
If it's not broken, don't fix it. In other words if it's working for you Aaron, keep it up. As long as they are safe to use, there is no harm here.
They just help you to experience this new realm consciously aware. You still have to navigate the surroundings once there. Just to become aware in these new areas will train you what to do when you become aware in the future "without" the use of the pill, which is known as a "tool".
Tools are very helpful. You could basically call them "training wheels" and just like what occurs while learning to ride a bicycle, you will outgrow their need as well. :-)
To be honest I think I would be tempted to take it myself. It probably would work but I do not think I like the sound of what I read about it. I read on line that it is treated for dementia and can have side effects. It sounds like you need a doctors prescription to get it. You can get it on line so you can get away without seeing a doctor.
Quote from: Lumaza on July 20, 2016, 20:17:56
There is no problem. :-P
But there is a problem...
Too many people come here asking questions about pills wanting them to become their only doorway to projecting.
THAT is a huge problem.
Quotewhich is known as a "tool".
I agree, kind of. It's not a tool I would *EVER* suggest to anyone.
Especially if your goal is to do this yourself. There's no replacement for hard work and dedication... not popping a pill and having it do it for you.
You don't learn anything doing that... and more importantly, you miss out on the most important part of all this: the journey.
You find out so much about yourself through the journey... skipping it, even for a brief glimpse, is like robbing yourself.
Sadly, that is something people don't learn until after they've already ruined it.
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 20, 2016, 03:39:49
[...] I sort of "wake up" in the midst of light sleep to the "high pitched ringing noise" and I focus on it, it gets insanely loud, and then POOF. The noise stops and I do the "roll out method" and then I'm in the midst of some foggy dream world. Is that astral projection? Or Lucid Dreaming? I don't know to be honest.
I doubt anyone really knows or if they do can't say so clearly because the vocabulary on this subject is something many play fast and loose with.
wake up ==> focus on Hypnogogic noise ==> Rollout = Genuine full conscious projection of consciousness, imho.
The only problem here is the "wake up" stage is a little ambiguous. It would be rock solid if you got up and went to the bathroom and splashed water on your face and then laid down again. But this description that you give here is really close enough that I would give you the benefit of the doubt (with mild caution/reservation).
Projecting directly into a misty/foggy realm may not be the True Astral Realm but more like the Real Time Zone as coined by Robert Bruce (I believe). Devolving rapidly or even immediately into an LD is very common and I would guestimate that about 95% of the so called astral projections I read about on these forums never got close to the true Astral Plane.
Quote from: Xanth on July 20, 2016, 20:54:13
But there is a problem...
Too many people come here asking questions about pills wanting them to become their only doorway to projecting.
THAT is a huge problem.
I agree, kind of. It's not a tool I would *EVER* suggest to anyone.
Especially if your goal is to do this yourself. There's no replacement for hard work and dedication... not popping a pill and having it do it for you.
You don't learn anything doing that... and more importantly, you miss out on the most important part of all this: the journey.
You find out so much about yourself through the journey... skipping it, even for a brief glimpse, is like robbing yourself.
Sadly, that is something people don't learn until after they've already ruined it.
I agree. But I also see this as being "a sign of the times". Hard work and dedication is sorely missing in this "NOW" generation! :-(
I travel quite a bit in my occupation and I see the general populace often and I can tell you that my statement above is dead on, people are being taught everyday that everything can and should be at their fingertips. So now they expect it as well. We are very minute part of general populace. On this Forum conversations of this nature are normal but outside in the general populace as a whole they are very miniscule.
I have never had any problem with hard work and dedication to achieve a goal. I have stated often here that it takes practice, patience and perseverance to be successful in this field. But I see that things aren't going to change soon. If anything it will get worse, before it gets better.
I stated that if this "pill" was safe to use, that it was okay. That safety would have to be confirmed by a Physician or Pharmacist. I have never used a pill. But I do use a Light/Sound machine occasionally and my Binaural Beats and Isochronic tones often. They are also known as "training wheels". But in no way do they lesson my experiences. They do speed the "prep work" up quite a bit though. :-)
I think that is great Lumaza that you use Binaural Beats and Isochronic tones. There is nothing wrong with that. I have listened to relaxing music. Listening to relaxing music helps you to relax. To be able to relax is one main ingredient towards ap.
I doubt that doctors would agree to give acetylcholine out to people that is meant to treat dementia or Alzheimers.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 20, 2016, 21:19:33
I doubt anyone really knows or if they do can't say so clearly because the vocabulary on this subject is something many play fast and loose with.
You don't have to "doubt" that nobody "really knows", because NOBODY REALLY KNOWS. There's not a single person who exists today who "REALLY KNOWS" anything about consciousness and reality.
All each of us can do is speak from our personal experiences... that doesn't mean anyone is playing "fast and loose" with definitions.
"Language" (English or otherwise) is extremely inept at describing things which fall outside the limits of this physical reality (ie: spirituality, astral projection).
QuoteProjecting directly into a misty/foggy realm may not be the True Astral Realm but more like the Real Time Zone as coined by Robert Bruce (I believe). Devolving rapidly or even immediately into an LD is very common and I would guestimate that about 95% of the so called astral projections I read about on these forums never got close to the true Astral Plane.
Also, you seem to have a very "defined" belief on how you view consciousness and reality (ie: you follow the classical model of a hierarchical reality)... please understand that not everyone sees things the way you do.
We try to be a very inclusive forum where people of many different opinions come together to share their experiences without having to have them belittled by others.
Experience is unique to the experiencer.
We all use different labels and definitions... it's better to try to understand the labels and definitions someone else is using before simply calling theirs wrong (thereby deeming your own "correct").
Please keep that in mind when posting here. :)
If you have any questions about this, please PM me.
Quote from: Lumaza on July 20, 2016, 21:32:38
I agree. But I also see this as being "a sign of the times". Hard work and dedication is sorely missing in this "NOW" generation! :-(
OMG yes. >_< LOL
So many people growing up today simple want everything now and aren't willing to do what's needed to get there. I guess they feel they "do enough" with education or something? LoL
Quote from: Xanth on July 21, 2016, 11:54:08
You don't have to "doubt" that nobody "really knows", because NOBODY REALLY KNOWS. There's not a single person who exists today who "REALLY KNOWS" anything about consciousness and reality.
I truly hope that's not true... (in fact I'm pretty sure its not).
You did just tell me recently to "Feel free to disagree with my "opinion" all you want"...?... right? I hope that's really okay, then.
QuoteAll each of us can do is speak from our personal experiences... that doesn't mean anyone is playing "fast and loose" with definitions.
"Language" (English or otherwise) is extremely inept at describing things which fall outside the limits of this physical reality (ie: spirituality, astral projection).
Of course, but 'experiences' and 'definitions' are two completely different things. Language is quite useful and plenty sufficient to describe things outside this physical reality. Language is a highly mental construct which means it is well suited to communicate not just the physical but the emotional astral realm as well as the mental/causal realities. As long as people adhere to a little semantic discipline and don't start saying things like "well ... pink is the new blue, in my experience...." -- if you know what I mean. Language does however, begin to fail miserably once we cross into the realms beyond duality but since 99% of humanity can hardly conceive of these realms and do not even know they exist there isn't much need to talk about them.
QuoteAlso, you seem to have a very "defined" belief on how you view consciousness and reality (ie: you follow the classical model of a hierarchical reality)... please understand that not everyone sees things the way you do.
We try to be a very inclusive forum where people of many different opinions come together to share their experiences without having to have them belittled by others.
A "model of a hierarchical reality" is not a belief but a construct that facilitates common ground for discussion. It is not a "defined Belief" but a 'model' that facilitates communication and the pursuit of Truth. Without that we see things devolve into a bunch of random sentences coming from all directions and flying every which way. It reminds me of that commercial where dozens of people are running willy nilly around the tennis court smacking the ball any which way... hilarious... in the end no one really gets anywhere.
Note also that I HAVE NEVER BELITTLED ANOTHER PERSON'S EXPERIENCE.
QuoteExperience is unique to the experiencer.
Yes, this is true (see?! ... we can agree on some things :-) .)
QuoteWe all use different labels and definitions... it's better to try to understand the labels and definitions someone else is using before simply calling theirs wrong (thereby deeming your own "correct").
You may be oversimplifying here. I understand that you may say tomato and I say tomahto. I understand that some say 'truck' and others say 'lorry' and both words mean the same thing. I understand that some say 'elevator' and others say 'lift' and both words mean the same thing. But when someone wants to say that 'truck' and 'elevator' are the same thing I might feel inclined to disagree. If someone says my elevator is better than that guy's truck for cooking breakfast I might feel inclined to ask, "What?".
I think I know the recent exchange here that you might be speaking from on this (the one of religion vs spirituality).
Among new agey types there is not just an acceptance of anti-Christian bias and even hate speech, but an almost sort of a camaraderie and encouragement they give each other. On basically all AP & LD and other metaphysical type forums Anti Catholic bigots and covert Christian haters seem to get a pass for some reason. There really is a double standard in this sense. Anyone who dares to speak up in defense of the more religious sorts is quickly reprimanded and often banned, usually on blatantly false trumped up charges.
I am very sensitive to this sort of bigotry. I hope you can please keep that in mind when I am posting here. I know it makes some people uncomfortable to see anti Christian bigotry and hate speech challenged but I think that is a good thing... no pain no gain. :)
Wow, a whole lot of responses to catch up on. Firstly, thank you to everyone who responded to me here and gave me advice/input. This is why I love this forum board. Secondly, I think a few of you guys are getting a little too carried away with this "pills are for lazy millennials" business lol.
I am a Fitness Model, an athlete and a full time personal trainer for Stanford University and Google Headquarters in Mountain View, CA. I know a thing or two about hard work. I work out for 1-2 hours a day in addition to working 40-50 hours a week. I'm not afraid of hard work at all. In fact, I LOVE it. It builds character, commitment, confidence and integrity. That's one of the things that has interested me the most about AP, the fact that it is a life long journey and a skill you can never truly "master", but must remain an eternal student of.
I have been practicing AP for almost 3 years now. I meditate every day. I learned how to AP and LD on my own years ago long before I ever tried this pill. So let me say for any potential newbee's reading this...the pill WILL NOT work for you if you don't already know how to AP or LD. You must put in the work first to reap any reward from the pill. I only took it because I am in a horrendous dry spell and have been literally aching to project again for over a year. I'm desperate enough to do anything that helps. I do not plan on taking these pills forever. Only to get the ball rolling again and knock this rust off. So if you're in that same boat, I say go for it. If you're hoping to have your first projection by taking this pill, sorry but you will be sorely disappointed. You must possess all of the skills and experience it takes to know how to navigate yourself out of body, otherwise you're just going to lay there in sleep paralysis completely freaked out all night.
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 22, 2016, 04:33:57
I have been practicing AP for almost 3 years now. I meditate every day. I learned how to AP and LD on my own years ago long before I ever tried this pill.
I knew who you were. I used to reply to your posts often back in 2014 under my former name "Lionheart". That is why I didn't see any harm in you getting "assistance" from a pill and I replied accordingly.
I watched your progress through the years.
But I will say that I am also a member on some other Forums and for some reason many practitioners seem to be experiencing a major drought with projection lately. I used to be able to become lucid in my Dreams almost on a nightly basis. But lately, I am awaking with just bits and pieces a recall. So much so that I have been going back to logging in point form. For some reason though the bits and pieces don't seem to be aligning together at all.
I also haven't had a OBE for about a month now and my Phase sessions seem to strand me in the 3D darkness, the "void". But that's as far as they go.
I did have a weird LD a couple of nights ago where I was stuck in some kind of maze/gaming World. It was a constant battle in that one. Humanity was completely out of control and there was strife and chaos everywhere. I certainly hope that this isn't the path that the "collective" consciousness as a whole is choosing now. This World needs a lot of healing in every meaning of the word. Fear and uncertainty seems to be the current mindset of the general populace today. :|
Quote from: Aaron330 on July 22, 2016, 04:33:57...the pill WILL NOT work for you if you don't already know how to AP or LD. You must put in the work first to reap any reward from the pill. .... If you're hoping to have your first projection by taking this pill, sorry but you will be sorely disappointed. You must possess all of the skills and experience it takes to know how to navigate yourself out of body, otherwise you're just going to lay there in sleep paralysis completely freaked out all night.
These are some great points you are making. Indeed, this is true. You can use it as a kind of crutch or a launch pad to get the ball rolling by getting into "the state" (SP, phase, vibrations,...) easily, but you must go further on your own, techniques, practices, strategies, actions, whatever you have learnt beforehand in your experiences (or try out once in a while what you read about from other APers or books ... and practice, practice, practice).
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 21, 2016, 17:04:06
...
I don't have the time nor inclination to play your word games Robert.
Post with a bit more respect towards the members and their beliefs and you won't have any problems.
It's clear you have MUCH to learn... and I don't mean from a Projection-viewpoint.
I have a few minutes to reply...
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 21, 2016, 17:04:06
I truly hope that's not true... (in fact I'm pretty sure its not).
You did just tell me recently to "Feel free to disagree with my "opinion" all you want"...?... right? I hope that's really okay, then.
It's the one constant in discussion of these topics. Nobody has the right answer, there are only beliefs and opinions.
Hence, there's nobody here who can stand up and say that they have "The truth", unless they're talking about "personal truth".
The Truth is vastly different from Personal Truth.
QuoteOf course, but 'experiences' and 'definitions' are two completely different things. Language is quite useful and plenty sufficient to describe things outside this physical reality.
Language is physical in nature. It breaks down as soon as you attempt to use it to describe non-physical experiences.
This is why there is such a disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams".
Give my book a quick read and you'll understand further.
QuoteA "model of a hierarchical reality" is not a belief but a construct that facilitates common ground for discussion. It is not a "defined Belief" but a 'model'...
First, we'll say this: a model is only a model and only represents something, but it is not that thing.
Secondly, a model based upon what? The (as I like to call it) "classical model of reality" is nothing but mere belief... as everything else discussed on this forum.
It's one of MANY kinds of models we discuss on this forum.
QuoteNote also that I HAVE NEVER BELITTLED ANOTHER PERSON'S EXPERIENCE.
And therein lies the problem... it's become such a normal pattern of interacting for you that you don't even know you're doing it.
To be extremely blunt (I'm like that), you're actually very rude, but that's besides the point. Temper your knowledge with understanding... it goes a long way.
QuoteYou may be oversimplifying here. I understand that you may say tomato and I say tomahto. I understand that some say 'truck' and others say 'lorry' and both words mean the same thing. I understand that some say 'elevator' and others say 'lift' and both words mean the same thing. But when someone wants to say that 'truck' and 'elevator' are the same thing I might feel inclined to disagree. If someone says my elevator is better than that guy's truck for cooking breakfast I might feel inclined to ask, "What?".
I think I know the recent exchange here that you might be speaking from on this (the one of religion vs spirituality).
Among new agey types there is not just an acceptance of anti-Christian bias and even hate speech, but an almost sort of a camaraderie and encouragement they give each other. On basically all AP & LD and other metaphysical type forums Anti Catholic bigots and covert Christian haters seem to get a pass for some reason. There really is a double standard in this sense. Anyone who dares to speak up in defense of the more religious sorts is quickly reprimanded and often banned, usually on blatantly false trumped up charges.
Allow me to provide a quick link for you to peruse: http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2012/07/22/labeling-experiences-of-the-non-physical/
That link should give you a good starter on my perspective.
Quote from: Xanth on July 22, 2016, 17:36:47
I have a few minutes to reply...It's the one constant in discussion of these topics. Nobody has the right answer, there are only beliefs and opinions.
Hence, there's nobody here who can stand up and say that they have "The truth", unless they're talking about "personal truth".
The Truth is vastly different from Personal Truth.
Language is physical in nature. It breaks down as soon as you attempt to use it to describe non-physical experiences.
This is why there is such a disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams".
Give my book a quick read and you'll understand further.
To be honest, Xanth, that comes across as a little patronizing and condescending. But that's okay, I can handle it.
All I can say is that I disagree, some more.
"The Truth" is Truth and those who make genuine progress come to agreement on this. When a large team climbs a mountain those few who reach the pinnacle are in the same place. The many who only get halfway up can be very far apart. To say one climber's personal 'truth' is different from another climber's personal 'truth' is basically meaningless. The climbers at the peak are in agreement about Truth and they are in disagreement with those in a different spot, down the mountainside. Also, the halfway up bunch might be either together or very far apart... but they are all far from the peak/Truth.
I think the main reason that there is so much "disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams" is because so many people with so little experience like to pontificate on the matter when they really know almost nothing about it. It is not just a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a matter of a very few knowing what they are talking about and a large mass of neophytes who have a few vivid dreams or get OBE a couple times and suddenly they act like they are some sort of expert on astral projection. But the problem is that they really and truly are genuinely wrong. I know you disagree with this but that is what I have discovered after decades of practicing and teaching and hundreds of projections to various levels of the cosmos.
For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).
Yes, someone linked to that site of yours yesterday and I read some of it.
"Dream Awareness" ...... "Lucid Awareness" ...... "Astral Awareness"
You do realize, don't you?... that is the basic framework of a hierarchical belief system that makes use of labels.
... just thought I'd mention it.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 22, 2016, 18:28:10
To be honest, Xanth, that comes across as a little patronizing and condescending. But that's okay, I can handle it.
Why does what I say illicit feelings of "patronization" and "condescension" in you?
Quote"The Truth" is Truth and those who make genuine progress come to agreement on this. When a large team climbs a mountain those few who reach the pinnacle are in the same place. The many who only get halfway up can be very far apart. To say one climber's personal 'truth' is different from another climber's personal 'truth' is basically meaningless. The climbers at the peak are in agreement about Truth and they are in disagreement with those in a different spot, down the mountainside. Also, the halfway up bunch might be either together or very far apart... but they are all far from the peak/Truth.
I think the main reason that there is so much "disagreement between labels such as "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and even "dreams" is because so many people with so little experience like to pontificate on the matter when they really know almost nothing about it. It is not just a matter of a difference of opinion. It is a matter of a very few knowing what they are talking about and a large mass of neophytes who have a few vivid dreams or get OBE a couple times and suddenly they act like they are some sort of expert on astral projection. But the problem is that they really and truly are genuinely wrong. I know you disagree with this but that is what I have discovered after decades of practicing and teaching and hundreds of projections to various levels of the cosmos.
For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).
All you're saying here is that you don't believe the "new", "popular" notion that those labels are the same thing. That's fine. Nobody is demanding you believe those things.
See, now I think it's a silly notion to say that there's a "true" astral plane... compared to what exactly? A false astral plane?
You can't ever know what someone else experienced. Even if they provided a perfect description of what they experienced... you still wouldn't know.
Why? Because you can't have their experience. You have NO IDEA WHAT-SO-EVER what they experienced.
So for you to sit there and say that what someone experience WASN'T what they said it is... is laughable at best really. Although, it certainly doesn't stop people from trying to do just that.
Here's another article I wrote on that subject: http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/09/02/addition-to-your-non-physical-perception/
In the end, your entire supposition is based upon the idea that someone out there has it "correct"; that someone out there knows "the TRUTH" about reality.
One day you'll learn this is a fallacy in regards to non-physical experiences and that the only truth is that "nobody knows the truth".
Comparisons such as you mountain one you spoke about are only valid within the confines of the same system (ie: comparing physical to physical).
QuoteYes, someone linked to that site of yours yesterday and I read some of it.
"Dream Awareness" ...... "Lucid Awareness" ...... "Astral Awareness"
You do realize, don't you?... that is the basic framework of a hierarchical belief system that makes use of labels.
... just thought I'd mention it.
You missed the point of the article. It's an exercise in explaining why labels are ultimately useless in the attempt to define our non-physical experiences.
They're all, ultimately, the same experience. There is no such thing as a "lucid dream", "astral projection"... or even "dreams". What we humans call "dreaming" is an experience that doesn't exist.
So what does exist? What exists is an experience which happens in a reality identified (during or after) as not being this physical reality where you have a varying level of awareness. That level of awareness is really what defines the experience, not that it's very important... but for those who use and enjoy those labels, that's what it is.
As I said though, some people enjoy using labels. Some people will take a long time to break free from that kind of linear thinking, so the article also provides them something to grasp onto which comes as close as I can get to being a label-less ideology. I try to encourage people to step out of that box though. I encourage them to try and see consciousness and reality as a more fluid, non-linear experience and that this physical reality is part and parcel of that experience too. Taking that perspective shifts the very idea of what an astral projection even is.
The ultimate goal being changing the concept in someone's mind from astral projection being something you DO, to a state of mind you ARE. You don't DO astral projection. You ARE astrally aware. Then it doesn't matter what reality you're in, you have a frame of reference. Right now, for example, you're having an astral awareness experience in this physical reality. When you fall asleep at night and have what we humans call a "dream", you're not "dreaming" (because that's an experience which doesn't objectively exist) you're having a dream awareness experience in a reality which isn't this physical reality. It's all relative to "here".
Eventually you'll figure out that even the terms "physical" and "non-physical" are horrible labels as well... and eventually break down when you dig deeper into them. There's really no such thing as a "physical" vs "non-physical" reality.
But now I'm rambling. Feel free to ignore me at this point. :)
Quote from: Xanth on July 22, 2016, 20:16:55
Why does what I say illicit feelings of "patronization" and "condescension" in you?
All you're saying here is that you don't believe the "new", "popular" notion that those labels are the same thing. That's fine. Nobody is demanding you believe those things.
See, now I think it's a silly notion to say that there's a "true" astral plane... compared to what exactly? A false astral plane?
You can't ever know what someone else experienced. Even if they provided a perfect description of what they experienced... you still wouldn't know.
[....]
Eventually you'll figure out that even the terms "physical" and "non-physical" are horrible labels as well... and eventually break down when you dig deeper into them. There's really no such thing as a "physical" vs "non-physical" reality.
But now I'm rambling. Feel free to ignore me at this point. :)
Thanks for playing the straight man, Xanth!
"Eventually you'll figure out..." is a very good example of one of your patronizing and condescending comments. :lol:
To make a long reply short I will just say, imagine me doing a line by line quote of every sentence of your post here and me saying, "false...false...false...false...."
I basically disagree with everything you said.
There really are ways of identifying if someone has truly visited a place. If there is a place called "Hawaii" and someone describes it as a desolate place of dry sand that stretches for a thousand miles -- well it is easy to conclude he wasn't really experiencing Hawaii.
There really are some universal telltale markers for the astral plane and the mental plane, and the realms beyond duality.
What I mean by "true astral" is not as opposed to false astral... unless we can call a bright, crisp, vivid experience of the RTZ, "false astral" -- then yes... that *is* what I mean.
Hmmm, let's see if I can reply to you on your own terms NLP-style;
Eventually Xanth, you'll actually start getting OBE on a regular basis and maybe actually reach the true astral plane and then you will figure out that Robert was right all along.
How's that? (See what I mean when the shoe is on the other foot?) ;)
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 22, 2016, 21:16:07
Thanks for playing the straight man, Xanth!
"Eventually you'll figure out..." is a very good example of one of your patronizing and condescending comments. :lol:
To make a long reply short I will just say, imagine me doing a line by line quote of every sentence of your post here and me saying, "false...false...false...false...."
I basically disagree with everything you said.
Whatever floats your boat. ;)
QuoteThere really are ways of identifying if someone has truly visited a place. If there is a place called "Hawaii" and someone describes it as a desolate place of dry sand that stretches for a thousand miles -- well it is easy to conclude he wasn't really experiencing Hawaii.
But see, now you're trying to use something "physical" and trying to use it to make a non-physical comparison. It doesn't work.
Take the "Astral Pulse Island" for example...
There are lots of people, even today, who think they've visited "THE" Astral Pulse Island... but did they? How do they know?
They saw a beach probably, they might have even seen a pyramid... is that a good enough description that tells you 100% that they were experiencing THAT specific Island?
No, it's not.
6 years ago, I made this post: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_spiritual_evolution/what_i_think_is_true_and_youre_dumb-t30656.0.html;msg255544#msg255544
Now, follow that thread through. At the time I didn't understand the concepts of "an objective reality" vs "a subjective reality".
"no_leaf_clover" was kind enough to explain things, which I then brushed off at the time (sorry NLC! :)). I look back on that thread now and get a good chuckle of just how ignorant I was. 6 years on now and I understand now why that apple isn't an apple and never will be an apple.
THAT is why I say that, even you too, will understand eventually. It's the natural progression of understanding... especially for people who are so hooked on labels and a hierarchical view of reality. Eventually that concept breaks down when you dig deep enough into it. Again, take that however you want. I learned a long time ago to not be held hostage to OTHER people's emotions.
QuoteThere really are some universal telltale markers for the astral plane and the mental plane, and the realms beyond duality.
What I mean by "true astral" is not as opposed to false astral... unless we can call a bright, crisp, vivid experience of the RTZ, "false astral" -- then yes... that *is* what I mean.
Hmmm, let's see if I can reply to you on your own terms NLP-style;
Eventually Xanth, you'll actually start getting OBE on a regular basis and maybe actually reach the true astral plane and then you will figure out that Robert was right all along.
How's that? (See what I mean when the shoe is on the other foot?) ;)
See, this is what I mean... there actually AREN'T "tell tale signs"... there are only beliefs you have which you've self-reinforced through other beliefs.
The day you realize that everything you know is only a belief/opinion is the day you'll realize another personal truth.
But meh... for now, I'm off, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 22, 2016, 18:28:10
For example, a popular notion that has gotten traction recently is that "astral projection", "lucid dreaming" and "dreams" are one and the same. I understand how easy it is to come to this conclusion. If 99% of people who get OBE never get to the true astral plane this is exactly what they will conclude. And for them it becomes true because they stop trying to reach the higher ethereal realms. (It still doesn't mean they are right).
I can relate both to what Xanth is saying and what Robert is saying, although I accept the consensus here that whenever you go to sleep you become aware of and experience things in the astral plane.
How do I differentiate an astral projection from a lucid dream? How I got there. The beginning of a lucid dream may be difficult to remember, and I can be anywhere, usually in the middle of a story. My astral projections start from where my body is laying asleep, so I'm usually moving away from bed and exploring the astral version of my house. There's no story going on and I can decide where to go and what to do, or at least try. In lucid dreams, even when I'm very lucid, I'm still dealing with the situations presented by the dream, so in theory my choices are limited.
I explore the possibility that there are no places in the astral realm, and that you can be anywhere and anywhen, given you know how to do that. Been lucid dreaming since I was a child, so I have 30 years of experience with conscious dreams, and started astral projecting in adulthood, about 16 years ago. Not trying to brag about it but my best experiences were unspeakable and I don't feel like telling anyone about them, but when compared to the worst ones, the only thing that makes them better is their content, visually they are of the same quality. If they were movies you would simply find them under different genres in a store.
I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.
Quote from: Xanth on July 22, 2016, 22:23:14
Whatever floats your boat. ;)
But see, now you're trying to use something "physical" and trying to use it to make a non-physical comparison. It doesn't work.
Take the "Astral Pulse Island" for example...
There are lots of people, even today, who think they've visited "THE" Astral Pulse Island... but did they? How do they know?
They saw a beach probably, they might have even seen a pyramid... is that a good enough description that tells you 100% that they were experiencing THAT specific Island?
No, it's not.
6 years ago, I made this post: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_spiritual_evolution/what_i_think_is_true_and_youre_dumb-t30656.0.html;msg255544#msg255544
Now, follow that thread through. At the time I didn't understand the concepts of "an objective reality" vs "a subjective reality".
"no_leaf_clover" was kind enough to explain things, which I then brushed off at the time (sorry NLC! :)). I look back on that thread now and get a good chuckle of just how ignorant I was. 6 years on now and I understand now why that apple isn't an apple and never will be an apple.
THAT is why I say that, even you too, will understand eventually. It's the natural progression of understanding... especially for people who are so hooked on labels and a hierarchical view of reality. Eventually that concept breaks down when you dig deep enough into it. Again, take that however you want. I learned a long time ago to not be held hostage to OTHER people's emotions.
See, this is what I mean... there actually AREN'T "tell tale signs"... there are only beliefs you have which you've self-reinforced through other beliefs.
The day you realize that everything you know is only a belief/opinion is the day you'll realize another personal truth.
But meh... for now, I think I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego.
Wow.
Xanth says to Robert; "
I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear
you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego".
But Robert is the one who is disrespectful. Even though Robert asked Xanth for an example of disrespect in his posts and received none. While Xanth asked Robert for examples of patronizing and condescending examples of Xanth's posts and Robert immediately provided such. And here Xanth takes it even further and resorts to outright insults/putdowns.
Will any of the other moderators here have the courage to step up and inform Xanth he is out of line?
Is there a double standard here?
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on July 22, 2016, 23:05:30
I can relate both to what Xanth is saying and what Robert is saying, although I accept the consensus here that whenever you go to sleep you become aware of and experience things in the astral plane.
How do I differentiate an astral projection from a lucid dream? How I got there. The beginning of a lucid dream may be difficult to remember, and I can be anywhere, usually in the middle of a story. My astral projections start from where my body is laying asleep, so I'm usually moving away from bed and exploring the astral version of my house. There's no story going on and I can decide where to go and what to do, or at least try. In lucid dreams, even when I'm very lucid, I'm still dealing with the situations presented by the dream, so in theory my choices are limited.
I explore the possibility that there are no places in the astral realm, and that you can be anywhere and anywhen, given you know how to do that. Been lucid dreaming since I was a child, so I have 30 years of experience with conscious dreams, and started astral projecting in adulthood, about 16 years ago. Not trying to brag about it but my best experiences were unspeakable and I don't feel like telling anyone about them, but when compared to the worst ones, the only thing that makes them better is their content, visually they are of the same quality. If they were movies you would simply find them under different genres in a store.
I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.
Hi Andrew. I can relate to your comments and I have a similar view of Dreams vs AP. The manner of entry and exit means something to me.
I am very quick to relate my RTZ travels but more reluctant to share true astral journeys and less motivated to share details of travels above that realm. I often find that OBE envy gets the better of the forum veterans and things often go downhill fast.
I will think about how to proceed from here and reply shortly... maybe in a PM.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 22, 2016, 23:50:41
Wow.
Xanth says to Robert; " I've wasted enough time on you, because it's clear you're not interested in doing anything other than pandering to your ego".
But Robert is the one who is disrespectful. Even though Robert asked Xanth for an example of disrespect in his posts and received none. While Xanth asked Robert for examples of patronizing and condescending examples of Xanth's posts and Robert immediately provided such. And here Xanth takes it even further and resorts to outright insults/putdowns.
Will any of the other moderators here have the courage to step up and inform Xanth he is out of line?
Is there a double standard here?
I'll just quickly point out, you're right, and it was changed before you even made your post.
I'm not that cold hearted that I can't admit when I'm wrong. :) Please accept my apologies.
Your turn now. :)
NOTE: Next time if you have any concerns with ANYTHING anyone (including myself or another moderators) says... please don't post it on the public forums. PM someone, if it's about me, then PM another Moderator. They will be more than happy to assist and bring you concerns to the group.
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on July 22, 2016, 23:05:30
I'm curious to hear about your experiences in the higher ethereal realms and how you describe the place.
Andrew, you made a comment that made me think of this experience;
Last week I was in a dream where two demons descended on an Asian village where I was visiting. We all ran into a house and shut the doors and windows. The demons began pounding on the walls and then suddenly a young boy was sucked out through the walls. I thought, "What?! That's enough of that!" And I became Lucid and flew out through a wall and pushed one fist outstretched forward and one down by my side Superman style and flew twice around the building. The demons beat a hasty retreat.
I then wanted to morph the LD into a full blown OBE.
I flew straight up and entered a misty realm of Light. I then raised both my hands directly over my head and pounded my fists together and a crack of deep thunder rumbled far and wide.
The mist cleared and I was now looking up upon a vast sea of calm water (it was upside down).
I flew up to the water and pushed my hand through and felt around a bit and I could feel a lotus flower and I could sense there were many, many flowers all around as though it were a Flower World on the other side.
Then my attention was disrupted by a disturbance in this physical reality... my wife was making a ruckus and wanted me to get up and on with the day... which I did.
Nota Bene;
This was not a pure projection into the astral realm but I suspect it was close.
Since the OP has devolved into a Big Truth/Small Truth thingy, I felt compelled to throw in my two cents.
Truth is always subjective, no matter the topic. This is as close as I get to a Big Truth. The only people whom I've ever met who were certain beyond doubt that they knew The Truth were religious zealots at one end and materialist scientists on the other. One end of the Truth Spectrum deals with purely belief-based, subjective truth, though they won't admit it; the other end deals with objective, material observation that requires subjective interpretation (theories), that they won't admit to.
Such a tangled web.
Quote from: madmagus on July 23, 2016, 01:35:19
Since the OP has devolved into a Big Truth/Small Truth thingy, I felt compelled to throw in my two cents.
[....]Truth is always subjective, no matter the topic. This is as close as I get to a Big Truth.
What if the topic is mathematics?
[and how does "Big Truth/Small Truth" discussion constitute devolution?]
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 23, 2016, 02:07:06
What if the topic is mathematics?
[and how does "Big Truth/Small Truth" discussion constitute devolution?]
The apple doesn't exist.
Until you realize WHY the apple doesn't exist... you'll never understand the rest.
Quote from: Xanth on July 23, 2016, 02:18:56
The apple doesn't exist.
Until you realize WHY the apple doesn't exist... you'll never understand the rest.
"you'll never understand the rest"In the School I was trained in NO ONE has the right to say such a thing to another Soul.
No one.
Wow, things have gotten quite intense in here lol.
Took the pills again last night and had another lucid dream. This time it was much longer. When I first woke up mid sleep to the loud noises, I realized it was time to roll out of body, but it felt like the energy level was weak. I was trying to roll out and flailing around, but it felt like I was stuck in goop, like that scene from the Matrix. Then I got out and began flying around and shooting energy beams at evil alien space ships and all sorts of crazy battles.
Eventually it actually got boring. I got tired of flying around in this dream world and felt like I had exhausted all my options. I wanted to go somewhere else and do something different, but I didn't know how. I remembered to try rubbing my hands together and I did, but it didn't seem to increase the lucidity of the dream.
The lucid dream went on forever, and eventually morphed into a regular dream that was quite intense and exciting, and lasted a very long time.
I woke up feeling exhausted mentally. I felt like I had lived an entire life time in that dream. Any ideas on how I can increase my lucidity/awareness next and try traveling somewhere else?
First, great job. Just the fact that you had a long experience, and an exciting one it sounds like, is a great result.
I'll make a quick suggestion now. If you run with too many potentials in your head, you can get jumbled up. If you are not as lucid as you'd like to be, or as you think you are, thinking of too many things will just distract you and tumble you into a NLD.
So. Personal flavor. Become still in the lucid. Demand 'awareness', 'clarity', 'control.' Wait a moment for things to stabilize. Now, use your intention to move to a new environment that you designate. If nothing happens, create a door or portal in front of you. Tell yourself that when you step through that you will arrive at the new location. Sometimes creating this moment of discontinuity within your environment is enough.
Before getting too many techs in your head, give that a go. Or choose another of your liking. Just remember that everything is thought responsive, from object creation to movement.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 23, 2016, 03:18:06
In the School I was trained in NO ONE has the right to say such a thing to another Soul.
No one.
If nothing else, Robert, you've done a superior job highlighting for everyone which end of the spectrum you fall on. Further, it saddens me that you haven't the critical capacity to understand why I say that the OP has devolved.
I apologize Aaron330 for my part in said devolvement.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 23, 2016, 02:07:06
What if the topic is mathematics?
Robert, do you have even the vaguest idea how much of mathematics is theoretical? How much of science is theoretical?
Oh, dear. Perhaps the problem is other than I thought. On that thought, just to make sure mind you, I should probably go on record and say that if I have been inadvertently conversing with a minor that I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I wouldn't change any of my statements, but I might have been less blunt about making them. There, now. That's out of the way.
Your turn, Aaron330. Give us another update to break the soul-crushing tension, pun intended.
Having so little time available at present the OP although not my cup of tea, should be allowed to continue unabated. Although some very interesting ideals and perceptions are within the 'off topic' discussion these should be removed and another topic on the percieved truth should be initiated. As I've had over 50 years of various experiences with not even a single post anywhere on the web mentioning some of these, I can relate to the off topic content.
As a reminder of keeping the site free from OP disruption which isn't always easy, the above suggestion would be appropriate.
I have respect for ALL members and any new ideas and knowledge is always welcome, anything presented will be scrutinised based on the accepted general consensus which in my personal opinion is flawed the same way as at the turn of the last century, it'd be a wise and educational topic for all to participate in.
Differences of opinions can then be addressed in a polite and acceptable manner to hopefully progress our understanding on what we're dealing with re conciousnes and its associated attributes regards to the astral subjectivity.
We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
The Greeks talked about the gate of ivory and the gate of horn, through which dreams could come and present reliable information (horn gate), or unreliable information (ivory gate). Premonitory, revelatory and all kinds of helpful dreams are no illusions. Those who like science should know that important scientific discoveries were made when the researchers were asleep. The structure of the atom envisioned by Niels Bohr, and the periodic table devised by Dmitri Mendeleev are good examples of that.
Now when it comes to describing higher planes of existence, if evidence cannot be presented, it is always up to the reader to decide how much one is willing to accept as possible.
Quote from: RobertForsythe on July 23, 2016, 00:37:54
Nota Bene;
This was not a pure projection into the astral realm but I suspect it was close.
On a side note, something that could seem terrifying to some, but we are explorers who like to learn, right (?), is a concept I've read in Japanese mythology, the existence of false paradises in higher realms. Here's an excerpt from the book Tourists in Paradise - Writing the Pure Land in Medieval Japanese Fiction:
Imposter Pure Lands are a significant danger for Pure Land Buddhist devotees in medieval Japanese fiction. [...] the Buddhist guardian deity Bishamonten in his previous human existence encounters no less than three false paradises, two of which are claimed to be "the Pure Land," in the course of his own Grand Tour through hell and the outer cosmos. The Prince avoids them thanks to the bodhisattva Jizo, whom he meets beside the Sanzu River in the Land of the Dead, and who warns him to beware.
Abstract
Late-medieval Japanese fiction contains numerous accounts of lay and monastic travelers to the Pure Land and other extra-human realms. In many cases, the "tourists" are granted guided tours, after which they are returned to the mundane world in order to tell of their unusual experiences. This article explores several of these stories from around the sixteenth century, including, most prominently, Fuji no hitoana sōshi, Tengu no dairi, and a section of Seiganji engi. I discuss the plots and conventions of these and other narratives, most of which appear to be based upon earlier oral tales employed in preaching and fund-raising, in order to illuminate their implications for our understanding of Pure Land-oriented Buddhism in late-medieval Japan. I also seek to demonstrate the diversity and subjectivity of Pure Land religious experience, and the sometimes startling gap between orthodox doctrinal and popular vernacular representations of Pure Land practices and beliefs.
What do you think about this idea?
First of all thank you Robert and Xanth for your long discussion. At least I learned some new things from it. It made this topic long and losing its focus but I enjoyed to follow your discussion cause you both stand for your point of view that makes it very interesting for me.
Quote from: madmagus on July 23, 2016, 04:23:46
I'll make a quick suggestion now. If you run with too many potentials in your head, you can get jumbled up. If you are not as lucid as you'd like to be, or as you think you are, thinking of too many things will just distract you and tumble you into a NLD.
So. Personal flavor. Become still in the lucid. Demand 'awareness', 'clarity', 'control.' Wait a moment for things to stabilize. Now, use your intention to move to a new environment that you designate. If nothing happens, create a door or portal in front of you. Tell yourself that when you step through that you will arrive at the new location. Sometimes creating this moment of discontinuity within your environment is enough.
This is a great idea. You could also focus on something for a short time like your hands. And instead of creating a door just go through a door which is already there and focus on the location you want to be in.
How could you be sure that any of these paradises are the real one? Each one of them claims that for itself. I find they are more like places created by astral beings in whatever mindset. Many people get 'lost' there for a period of time cause they think this is heaven, instead of being totally free. But most of them need to get 'lost' there for their journey to continue.
Hope this makes sense. All the best
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on July 23, 2016, 06:30:11
We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
The Greeks talked about the gate of ivory and the gate of horn, through which dreams could come and present reliable information (horn gate), or unreliable information (ivory gate). Premonitory, revelatory and all kinds of helpful dreams are no illusions. Those who like science should know that important scientific discoveries were made when the researchers were asleep. The structure of the atom envisioned by Niels Bohr, and the periodic table devised by Dmitri Mendeleev are good examples of that.
Now when it comes to describing higher planes of existence, if evidence cannot be presented, it is always up to the reader to decide how much one is willing to accept as possible.
On a side note, something that could seem terrifying to some, but we are explorers who like to learn, right (?), is a concept I've read in Japanese mythology, the existence of false paradises in higher realms. Here's an excerpt from the book Tourists in Paradise - Writing the Pure Land in Medieval Japanese Fiction:
Imposter Pure Lands are a significant danger for Pure Land Buddhist devotees in medieval Japanese fiction. [...] the Buddhist guardian deity Bishamonten in his previous human existence encounters no less than three false paradises, two of which are claimed to be "the Pure Land," in the course of his own Grand Tour through hell and the outer cosmos. The Prince avoids them thanks to the bodhisattva Jizo, whom he meets beside the Sanzu River in the Land of the Dead, and who warns him to beware.
Abstract
Late-medieval Japanese fiction contains numerous accounts of lay and monastic travelers to the Pure Land and other extra-human realms. In many cases, the "tourists" are granted guided tours, after which they are returned to the mundane world in order to tell of their unusual experiences. This article explores several of these stories from around the sixteenth century, including, most prominently, Fuji no hitoana sōshi, Tengu no dairi, and a section of Seiganji engi. I discuss the plots and conventions of these and other narratives, most of which appear to be based upon earlier oral tales employed in preaching and fund-raising, in order to illuminate their implications for our understanding of Pure Land-oriented Buddhism in late-medieval Japan. I also seek to demonstrate the diversity and subjectivity of Pure Land religious experience, and the sometimes startling gap between orthodox doctrinal and popular vernacular representations of Pure Land practices and beliefs.
What do you think about this idea?
Excellent informative post, I can't but think how much of this is related to shamanistic use of supplements?
Time has provided many views on the art and over the centuries many changes have been made to what's acceptable
Quote from: madmagus on July 23, 2016, 04:45:36
If nothing else, Robert, you've done a superior job highlighting for everyone which end of the spectrum you fall on. Further, it saddens me that you haven't the critical capacity to understand why I say that the OP has devolved.
I apologize Aaron330 for my part in said devolvement.
Madmagus, What spectrum are you referring to?
And you didn't answer the question. It was not a matter of simple 'devolution' but specifically concerning Big Truth/small truth.
Finally, it sounds a little like you were making an arrogant condescending comment there about my critical capacity -- which I suspect you nothing about.
Quote from: madmagus on July 23, 2016, 05:05:35
Robert, do you have even the vaguest idea how much of mathematics is theoretical? How much of science is theoretical?
Oh, dear. Perhaps the problem is other than I thought. On that thought, just to make sure mind you, I should probably go on record and say that if I have been inadvertently conversing with a minor that I apologize for any perceived rudeness. I wouldn't change any of my statements, but I might have been less blunt about making them. There, now. That's out of the way.
Non sequitur. "Theoretical" was not in question.
"conversing with a minor" ?...?
Was that another condescending put down? (What is going on here?)
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on July 23, 2016, 06:30:11
We know the astral is where concepts can become reality, like the Astral Pulse Island. It is as real as a song, conceived and 'recorded' to be experienced with one sense, but not as real as Hawaii, that you can visit and experience with all senses. However, many of us have had confirmations that there is also an objective aspect.
[....]
What do you think about this idea?
Yes, the idea of False heavens is commonly taught.
This is why some Schools forbid astral projection among the devotees until they have become firmly established in the realms beyond duality.
Quote from: WhiteMonkey on July 23, 2016, 08:21:44
How could you be sure that any of these paradises are the real one? Each one of them claims that for itself. I find they are more like places created by astral beings in whatever mindset. Many people get 'lost' there for a period of time cause they think this is heaven, instead of being totally free. But most of them need to get 'lost' there for their journey to continue.
Hope this makes sense. All the best
Yes, of course it makes sense. It is part of the early instruction in most Consciousness 101 classes.
Both you and Andrew have brought this up but I am not sure what might have been said here to make it relevant to anything. (?)
It might be stemming from the "the apple doesn't exist/it is all illusion/its just data" rut that so many aspirants get stuck in. A miniature false paradise even. I am reminded of the story about a monk leading his disciples in a meditation and then asking what they experienced and a few reported feeling relaxed, others peace, etc. Then one got very pensive and in an air of wonder announced he realized that "all is illusion". At that the monk reached out and slapped the disciple across face as hard as he could, and he asked, "How does that illusion feel?".
This whole impermanence/its just data thing needs to be kept in perspective.
And with that... the lock.