Dreams = OBE?

[beavis]

When dreaming, you arent aware of your body. Why should you start thinking about it if you start to OBE? Most dreams are not OBE.

[G3MM4]

So what does happen to you when you dream if most dreams aren't OBEs?

[beavis]

Different amounts of chemicals in your brain cause neurons to fire in different patters than when you're awake. You halucinate.

[G3MM4]

Doesn't sound plausable. Is there any sciencific evidence that you hallucinate when you sleep?

[Rastus]

Your body runs a screensaver, you sould AP's.  You organic brain can only remember 1 set of dreams, guess which one?  Only if you conciously exit the AP/OBE and make an effort to superimpose the experieince can you conciously recall it.

[G3MM4]

Sorry but I disagree with that statement about consciously APing... I have APed/OBEd whilst asleep and I was able to remember them clearly. The only thing was, I could remember re-entering my body, but not the exit.

[Rastus]

Really?
Then you agree with what I said, but you also disagree.  Which is it?  I made no comments about conciously entering an OB/AP, only exiting.  How you enter it is up to you and your limitations.

[beavis]

Is there any sciencific evidence that you hallucinate when you sleep?

Lots of it, including that when electricity is put into certain parts of a brain, certain kinds of halucinations consistently happen. It is a fact that there are different amounts of neurotransmitter chemicals in your brain when you sleep. If you doubt the ability of chemicals to make you halucinate, eat some shrooms.

It has been proven that halucinations happen during sleep, but not that everything during sleep is a halucination. Some of it is real OBE.

[G3MM4]

Rastus. Sorry I didn't make myself clear as I was tired at the time, and your statement wasn't too clear either.

quote:and make an effort to superimpose the experieince can you conciously recall it.

That is the part of what you said that I disagree with. I never made an effort to superimpose my experiences after waking up. It required no effort at all, I recalled it instantly. I do agree that you are able to recall the exit, as I've done that. Is that clearer for you now?

quote:You organic brain can only remember 1 set of dreams, guess which one?

Wrong. You are able to recall more than one set of dreams, but it requires a lot of practice for many people. On rare occasions I've done this. I'm talking from personal experience.

Beavis.

quote:If you doubt the ability of chemicals to make you halucinate, eat some shrooms.

I don't doubt the ability of chemicals to make you hallucinate, and I certainly don't need to eat shrooms to do this... amphetamines are more than enough to achieve this. I did quite a bit of speed last year, and I hallucinated a lot. However, I don't know why you brought up chemicals and shrooms since you would be awake when hallucinating. []

As for scientific evidence, it's not set in stone. [] Can you provide links to websites that shows this evidence? Just so I can find out more about it.

Sorry if I haven't been clear with my reply, I am exhasted right now. [xx(]

Thank you.

[beavis]

I don't know why you brought up chemicals and shrooms since you would be awake when hallucinating.

Why does it matter if your body moves while you halucinate? The same neurons can fire.

[clandestino]

Hi gemma, I believe that dreams = OBEs.

Imagine a spectrum of conciousness, like.... lets say a rainbow. Both the dreams & the OBEs are different colours on this rainbow. The different colours are synonomous with our levels of awareness / conciousness. Lets say that a dream = "red" on our imaginary spectrum. The red colour, at the uppermost part of the rainbow, indicates relatively little awareness. During a dream, we often feel like we are acting out a pre-ordained path. Sometimes we feel we are in control, yet when we look back on the dream, our actions make no sense !

Lets say that an OBE is the green colour, further into the centre of the rainbow. Here we have 100% full awareness, normally accompanied by most of our faculties (sight, touch, hearing). We are in control of our actions just as within the real world. In fact, it is impossible to distinguish between the reality of this experience, and our physical reality.

Lucid dreaming is part of the spectrum too....more than a dream, but not quite an OBE. Imagine it as the yellow colour, in between red and green. During a lucid dream your awareness is heightened. Although you are fully in control during a lucid dream, & very nearly fully aware, there is one major difference : you KNOW that you are in a lucid dream. You do not experience the sense of knowing that you are out of your body, in a whole new reality.

Just as these colours are part of a rainbow, dreams/ lucid dreams/ OBEs are aspects of the same thing....so IMO you are "out of your body" when you dream.

As the mind affects the environment we perceive whilst being in this "out of body" state, this could be interpreted as "hallucinating". Alternatively it could be viewed as creating your own reality. Some of the environment we perceive whilst out of body may be independent of our own mind, but it is likely that for beginners like me, the majority of my perceptions will be generated by my mind. As thought = action within astral realms, the way to truely perceive the astral, is to calm the mind to an extent that the "hallucinations" fall away.

 

quote:If you're out of body when you dream, then how come we don't recall the exit and re-entry when we recall our dreams?

Simply because our level of awareness is usually not static during these experiences. As OBE, lucid dreaming and dreams are aspects of the same thing, our wandering minds will drift between them ( though I might add, normally we find ourselves drifting between lucid & regular dreams). Every now and then, something does happen in our minds whilst sleeping that is akin to a tv channel being changed : suddenly, we find ourselves OBE. Why this happens, I haven't got a clue ! But when it occurs we don't recall our exits and enries, IF they happen at all in the first place.....

Hope my opinions have given you a little food for thought, gemma !

[beavis]

All dreams (or all parts of them) cant be OBEs. Brains operate at specific frequencies during dreams, but not the whole time the body is asleep. Neurons fire during dreams. Those neurons are part of your experience. They're physical. So how can all of dreaming be nonphysical?

[G3MM4]

quote:Why does it matter if your body moves while you halucinate? The same neurons can fire.

Beavis, I'm sorry but did I mention anything about moving? And how come you haven't provided any links to websites that support your theory?

Thanks Clandestino!

[clandestino]

Hi beavis, I don't disagree with what you're saying, I guess my opinion differs in that I don't believe that the "neurons firing" means that the brain is creating the dream. Though I've got no evidence to support this (!), I believe these neurons are definitely involved in the act of perception of the non-physical, but the items within our dreams could be either a) objects in the astral realms (objective) or b) creations of our own minds (subjective). Our minds, being completely seperate non-physical entities, create dreamscapes, in part and often as a whole. I think that the brain is involved in interpreting and perceiving, what our minds (our non-physical part) have created.

Sorry about the bad grammar, hope you get the gist of what I'm saying !

Mark

[G3MM4]

I'd agree that the brain is indirectly involved in that way. But Beavis' explanation/threory sounds like the brain is directly involved, which it isn't IMO. If the mind/consciousness is separate from the physical body (which it has to be if the consciousness survives physical death), then it must be directly involved in OOBEs/dreams etc. The physical brain only plays a tiny part in it all by perceiving these things. That's the conclusion I've arrived at.

If it's not clear enough then let me know.

[G3MM4]

If you're out of body when you dream, then how come we don't recall the exit and re-entry when we recall our dreams?