I'm just curious on peoples thoughts on what separates good from evil. What are their main differences. are they opposites or enemies? things like that.
appreciate any replies in advance thank you.
i see them as ying and yang.
without one of them chaos follows and everything is destroyed.
chaos follows the destruction of one or the other.
that must put evil at an advantage...to spread chaos it has the choice of tempting good to destroying evil and the choice to just try and destroy good.
all good can do is defend whatever it can. do you think that's right?
I don't believe in good and evil.
Every action can be perceived as good in some light, every action can be perceived as evil, it all depends upon which perceptions you use for the moment.
Good and Evil implies there are absolutes, there are no absolutes. There is no enemy, anywhere.
I pretty much agree with kai wren. Everything is relative to the observer. Just look at human history, the scale of what is considered evil at any point is generally dictated by the morals of that given time and society,
Things just 'are'. It's us who give them meaning.
So you don't think that Jeffery Dahmer represented evil?
Maybe it's just me, but for a year or so, I've been seeing a definite line being drawn between, good and evil. Maybe we should say, good and bad.. evil sounds so...evil. :lol:
Nope. i would say,Bush represents evil.
Oh brother.. So you are seriously saying that Bush represents evil more than Dahmer? I wish people would just get over the whole hate Bush thing. It's so old and mostly made up propaganda from the media, but whatever, you keep on hating. I'm sure this will help fix the problems in the world. :roll:
Quote from: NaySo you don't think that Jeffery Dahmer represented evil?
Maybe it's just me, but for a year or so, I've been seeing a definite line being drawn between, good and evil. Maybe we should say, good and bad.. evil sounds so...evil. :lol:
Ok. An example of this can be seen in early societies where ritual sacrifice and cabalism were the norm. Such things were not evil to those societies, yet to our own they are.
All that's changed is our perception of the acts.
An act is an act, nothing more, we interpret and classify it.
Is killing an animal wrong?
Is killing a human wrong?
Asking people such questions would never generate a uniform response. Are some of the possible replies more 'right' than others? Who has the authority to state which is right/wrong, good/evil ?
People usually reply to such things with statements such as one inherently knows good from bad. Yet they don't address to what extent that is a cultural phenomenon.
Perhaps something more relevant to modern times is that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. It's all relative to individual perception (which in most cases is driven by the moral climate of their current society).
I guess people like the good/evil absolutes as it simplifies everything, rather than having to work within a framework of infinite shades of grey.
Quote
Oh brother.. So you are seriously saying that Bush represents evil more than Dahmer? I wish people would just get over the whole hate Bush thing. It's so old and mostly made up propaganda from the media, but whatever, you keep on hating. I'm sure this will help fix the problems in the world.
Hehe, this is a case in point :grin:. Some people do honestly believe bush is the personification of evil, just as some see him as Gods hand.
I have a feeling this could turn out to be a very lengthy discussion that will never have a satisfying end for either side. So, I'll say I absolutely see things as good or bad. :grin: I think it's that simple.
But however, I do believe we have to have both, or no one would learn any kind of moral lesson... uh oh, I just brought up morals.. oh geez.. that's gonna add a day or two of discussion.. :lol:
According to the laws of attraction. Bush was elected because everyone couldn't stop hating him.. hehe. Think about it. Why do you think everyone was dismayed that he won and by such close margins. It wasn't ballet stuffing and all that conspiracy business. It was all of the people whom hated him, that couldn't stop sending out thoughts about him. Stop thinking about the things you don't want, or you are going to bring them right to you. :grin:
Quote from: NayI have a feeling this could turn out to be a very lengthy discussion that will never have a satisfying end for either side. So, I'll say I absolutely see things as good or bad. :grin: I think it's that simple.
But however, I do believe we have to have both, or no one would learn any kind of moral lesson... uh oh, I just brought up morals.. oh geez.. that's gonna add a day or two of discussion.. :lol:
Lol, I agree it could turn into a discussion with no ultimate answer (just a lot of aching fingers :grin:). I guess one way of looking at it is, on the largest scale, death is but a belief system in this physical locale – we see it so seriously because we cannot see outside this 'box' of biological programming. For example, what truly is death to an eternal being? As mentioned in other posts, all emotions and such states are ultimately illusions. Things just 'are'. Everything just 'is'. To quote the beatles (hehe):
Quote
There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung.
Nothing you can say but you can learn how to play the game
It's easy.
There's nothing you can make that can't be made.
No one you can save that can't be saved.
Nothing you can do but you can learn how to be in time
It's easy.
<snip>
There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
<snip>
Quote
According to the laws of attraction. Bush was elected because everyone couldn't stop hating him.. hehe. Think about it. Why do you think everyone was dismayed that he won and by such close margins. It wasn't ballet stuffing and all that conspiracy business. It was all of the people whom hated him, that couldn't stop sending out thoughts about him. Stop thinking about the things you don't want, or you are going to bring them right to you. :grin:
:lol:.
if the whole concept of good and evil is just perspective and the emotions we experience through our life just illusions...I fail to see a point to life at all. Everything we do in our lifetime is pointless if all it creates are perceptions and illusions. Well thats just how I would feel if i believed that.
Everything is perception, yes, but how does this detract from life?
The human body and mind is only equipped to process a tiny, tiny fraction of the data that this universe throws at us. This is a fact, but life is all about experiences, good and evil, even reality, doesn't come into life.
My philosophy is simple- live life to the full, try and experience as much as possible, if one experiences much, and thinks much, and explores as many perceptions as possible, that is a life full of enrichment and wonder.
Life is what you make it, what you perceive it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.
So try and perceive the best life possible for you, and your life will be 'good'
Or not.
oh my goodness i'm so sorry I don't know what i was thinking typing that post how could I of bin so stupid. your absolutely right and what was previously said is correct also. I don't know how i got so confused with myself. I am practically laughing at how stupid I am...
very well said by the way and thank you for arguing whatever point i thought i had and thank you for the quick reply also. :S
Quote from: loppoppyif the whole concept of good and evil is just perspective and the emotions we experience through our life just illusions...I fail to see a point to life at all. Everything we do in our lifetime is pointless if all it creates are perceptions and illusions. Well thats just how I would feel if i believed that.
I really don't think there is any point to life other than what we give it.
If you follow a more spiritual perspective, then in such circumstances the point of life would be experience. Every combination of every event experienced in every conceivable way. The universe exploring itself etc.
Quote from: loppoppyoh my goodness i'm so sorry I don't know what i was thinking typing that post how could I of bin so stupid. your absolutely right and what was previously said is correct also. I don't know how i got so confused with myself. I am practically laughing at how stupid I am...
very well said by the way and thank you for arguing whatever point i thought i had and thank you for the quick reply also. :S
Hey loppoppy,
Some advice I would give to anyone looking for meaning is to find your own meaning :smile:. If there is any ultimate truth, I don't think anyone has found it yet. All that is out there is a lot of opinions and beliefs.
Listen to other ideas, but ultimately, keep an open mind and choose what you want to believe based upon your own experience :smile:.
Quoteoh my goodness i'm so sorry I don't know what i was thinking typing that post how could I of bin so stupid. your absolutely right and what was previously said is correct also. I don't know how i got so confused with myself. I am practically laughing at how stupid I am...
very well said by the way and thank you for arguing whatever point i thought i had and thank you for the quick reply also. :S
No problem, friend! I just felt I should clarify what was previously said- I am glad to have enlightened you, though really you shouldn't be so hard on yourself! Many people don't even consider good and evil in their lives; you are not stupid merely for holding an opinion other than mine!
misterjingo,
your advice of course makes a lot of sense so in response i will be glad to take it. Thank you very much. In my short time here i have learnt so much already i only hope my knowledge and logic continues to grow through these very cool discussions.
kai wren,
throughout life, like most people, I have heard many stories where good and evil clash and battle to the finish. I can now appreciate the beauty of these stories as such a thing is rare maybe even impossible in real life. My opinion was based on the belief that good and evil are a force that battle throughout our lives in mysterious ways. From what you said to me I understand that this is true, though good and evil are not so much force but perception which can be just as powerful. I hope that makes sense.
liveevil devillived just words
good:evil talk is restrictive and war like
but if i had to be honest I would say i'm 90% good 10% evil the 10% is used when people aren'nt good to me but this balance has changed throughout my life, due to some unfortunate situations it used to be a bit more 50/50.
The concept of good and evil is not as clear cut and simple as it seems at first glance.
In some societies honour killing is a virtue. In others eating the deceased relative is an honour.
What is to be understood is that an action in and of itself is just an action. It only becomes good or bad when put into a particular context of both prevalent social and moral codifications and the people involved in the action and its consequences.
Killing a guy at the mall is a crime, kiling a guy in war is being a hero. Same action, same result, different valuation as to good or evil.
The ultimate criterion inmy opinion is the answer to the question "Does the act prevent another from expressing him/herself to the best of his/her ability?"
All said and done, there is no absolute good or absolute evil.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Quote from: jilola
The ultimate criterion inmy opinion is the answer to the question "Does the act prevent another from expressing him/herself to the best of his/her ability?"
That's very beautifully put!
This takes away from subjective value judgements and gives to more objective thoughts of "what works and is best for all involved and what doesn't work and isn't best for all involved"
Blessings,
James.
To me good and evil are both the same yet different.
Without Evil good cannot exist because to me good is to apposed evil but if there is no evil then there shall be no good.
also evil cannot exist without good, if there was no good in the world then evil would have nothing to appose, therefore we all would live in evil and think that it is regular life...
thus creating a balance of good, and evil...Yin and Yang
But what happens if the balance is tipped in favor of good, or of evil....
That is a day i hope i never see.
Quote from: El-BortukaliNope. i would say,Bush represents evil.
Nope, i would say, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi still represents evil even after his death.
Bush is good because he is wiping out the Islamo- Extremest animals.
I would like to see Islamic scholars denounce Al Z as the murdering sadistic insane psychopath that he was.
I would like to see Islamic spiritual leaders announce that Al Z was a criminal and that he will NOT reap some kind of perverted heaven world reward for his atrocious acts against humanity and that he will instead experience the harshest of punishments in his afterlife.
Bush killing evil does not intrinsically make Bush Good. Bush has also done more to attack the very basis of your country than any other president that I know of.
Nazi's killed Communists, does that make them good?
OK, then how about,
people who are doing human trafficking (modern day slavery) and people in the heroin trade are evil.
The actions of these people cause indescribable harm and misery to others.
One of Adrian's recent letters mentions that evil is a human problem caused by humans.
Humanity needs to strengthen the law and justice system.
The lack of Law and Order is evil? Failing to take responsibility is evil?
Quote from: kai wren on May 27, 2006, 16:40:23
My philosophy is simple- live life to the full, try and experience as much as possible, if one experiences much, and thinks much, and explores as many perceptions as possible, that is a life full of enrichment and wonder.
-This is totally logical, just living in any way is fulfilling the perpose of life.
Quote from: Nay
I have a feeling this could turn out to be a very lengthy discussion that will never have a satisfying end for either side. So, I'll say I absolutely see things as good or bad. I think it's that simple.
But however, I do believe we have to have both, or no one would learn any kind of moral lesson... uh oh, I just brought up morals.. oh geez.. that's gonna add a day or two of discussion..
Morals and good/evil are the same thing.
Quote from: MisterJingo on May 27, 2006, 16:57:00
Hey loppoppy,
Some advice I would give to anyone looking for meaning is to find your own meaning :smile:. If there is any ultimate truth, I don't think anyone has found it yet. All that is out there is a lot of opinions and beliefs.
Listen to other ideas, but ultimately, keep an open mind and choose what you want to believe based upon your own experience :smile:.
I don't want to be a jerk, but I'm getting tired of hearing that. We all know its not true, or we wouldn't keep saying it. Its riddled with underlying reasons and perposes, the front and center feeling you have is its 'Good' for humanity to run off in random directions, facilitating free will. You are admitting to the existence of good/evil, though not consciously. I think your just afraid to find the ultimate truth, but to say it doesn't exist annoys me, so I'll tell you.
Without dark there can be no light, only grey, therefore no great sorrow nor great joy. The universe created us for this battle, if you had never seen a shadow how would you know what you were seeing was all light? The ultimate truth is we are here to surpass the grey into light or dark, because if the universe were grey we wouldn't exist.
i like to remember that darkness isn't the opposite of light, darkness is just a dim light. Maybe totally irrelavent to this conversation but it's still nice to think about. If there was no darkness and only light, then in time some light would dim down. If there was only darkness and no light, in time some darkness would brighten up. Thats what i think anyway. When in light, darkness will be born, when in darkness, light will be born.
To the subject at hand. Though typed in slight annoyance, I think it's about time someone came out an told everyone what the ultimate truth is. Next episode we will find out how everyone reacts to this startling truth. Will it be met with anger or understanding?...
Alaskans,
knowing this truth, are you prepared to take that path and move out of the grey? If you truly believe it to be the truth, wouldn't you disband any irrelevance in your physical life, sacrifice anything and everything? If that is the ultimate truth then any other type of life is pointless and only the goal of achieving the light should fill your mind.
The ultimate truth? That's an easy one...
The universe doesn't care either way about humanity, there is no ultimate battle, there are no sides other than those we make for ourselves. The universe isn't black or white, it isn't even grey... The universe is a bright yellow.
Now, lets see if this is responded to with anger or with understanding, eh?
Its not the ultimate truth, it only pertains to the perpose of us and god, it doesn't answer where the energy that created god came from. Don't be dazzled by words or deterred by poor ones.
It doesn't speak of light/dark as only actions but us as granules of free will. I'm not going to explain it any farther. Ask yourself or god for the answers.
Kai: If the universe doesn't have a spectrum then how can it be divided over frequencies? And if the universe didn't care about us then it wouldn't have wasted energy on gifting us with its consciousness.
EDIT: Ahh.. who am I kidding, it IS the ultimate truth, everything in the universe is connected to it. Anything beyond it is beyond what we should bother worrying about.
the universe gifting us with it's conciousness...that could be misunderstood in many ways. I believe our soul is created when the light of "god" or just pure energy is fused with the physical minds conciousness. If seen correctly both beliefs could mean the same thing.
What was meant by light and dark was not good and evil actions but good will and evil will. As such things as good and evil are beyond the physical, they could not be explained or be involved with the physical without causing fierce debate or without considering peoples perception.
kai wren,
"Now, lets see if this is responded to with anger or with understanding, eh?"
It does make me laugh when people react to posts with such emotion as anger. It shows how unbalanced they are in their mind and prooves they are not fit for serious discussion. Anyone here who reacts in such a way should reconsider reading any topic containing discussions involving opposing opinions.
Quote from: loppoppy on May 24, 2006, 18:31:31
I'm just curious on peoples thoughts on what separates good from evil. What are their main differences. are they opposites or enemies? things like that.
I'll respond without reading the other replies, mainly because I'm tired and lazy. :(
I've been wondering the same thing for a while, and I really don't know, but you could describe them (maybe a little more objectively) as selfish/unselfish, aware/ignorant, and things like that, but then I wonder if there even
IS a way you can objectively describe the two with any accuracy. Maybe it's a little more intuitive and counter-intuitive to the way we've been raised to think. :)
In
Taoism, good and evil allow each other to exist. There is only good when there is something comparatively "worse", and vice-versa. Taoism encourages us to not make these distinctions.
In criticism of
e. e. cummings that I've read, I came across an even
more profound way of viewing good and evil: they encourage each other
dynamically and
proportionately.
For example, when everyone in the world is either suffering and dying of horrible diseases and famines, etc., or else
ignorant, then
mankind's desire for "good" skyrockets.
On the other hand, when everyone is living in a little paradise, in some 1950's perfect-world suburbia or wherever,
mankind's desire for "good" greatly diminishes, we become non-vigilant, are less motivated to solve major problems, and "evil" can (and historically does) much more easily take hold, leading to the above example.
That was some powerful stuff for me. e.e. cummings is amazing. :)
Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: loppoppy on May 24, 2006, 18:31:31
I'm just curious on peoples thoughts on what separates good from evil. What are their main differences. are they opposites or enemies? things like that.
appreciate any replies in advance thank you.
To separate things into good and evil presupposes a duality, when there may not be one at all. Perhaps everything is simply Oneness? But then how do we explain the perceived "polarities" in the universe, i.e. Yin/Yang?
Perhaps Creation is not something that happened already, in the past. Perhaps it's something that's happening now. Black hole cosmology points to supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies gobbling up the matter around them. Galaxies move and merge with other galaxies, black holes grow and gobble more matter. But the black holes themselves give off a tiny particle at a time. If there was ever a time when all the matter in the universe was consumed by black holes, the black holes themselves would eventually cease to exist, through this process of giving out a particle at a time. Then, when this is complete you would have a paradigm of no motion whatsoever...complete Inanimateness. The converse of that is complete Life.
So perhaps Life represents Pure Knowledge, or Good. Perhaps lack of Life, the Inanimate represents Ignorance, or Evil. So perhaps at the "end of the universe" you would have two things: Complete Inanimateness and Complete Life. Perhaps Complete Life is Pure Knowledge, or the merging of all living things into One. Perhaps this ultimate merging is the real Birth, the real Creation.
And perhaps gravity is the mechanism by which the universe "sifts" the Living from the Non-Living, the Knowledge from the Ignorance. Sort of like panning for gold, but the gold in this case being Learning, or Being.
Quote from: MisterJingo on May 26, 2006, 18:47:40
Ok. An example of this can be seen in early societies where ritual sacrifice and cabalism were the norm. Such things were not evil to those societies, yet to our own they are.
All that's changed is our perception of the acts.
An act is an act, nothing more, we interpret and classify it.
Is killing an animal wrong?
Is killing a human wrong?
Asking people such questions would never generate a uniform response. Are some of the possible replies more 'right' than others? Who has the authority to state which is right/wrong, good/evil ?
People usually reply to such things with statements such as one inherently knows good from bad. Yet they don't address to what extent that is a cultural phenomenon.
Perhaps something more relevant to modern times is that one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. It's all relative to individual perception (which in most cases is driven by the moral climate of their current society).
I guess people like the good/evil absolutes as it simplifies everything, rather than having to work within a framework of infinite shades of grey.
Hehe, this is a case in point :grin:. Some people do honestly believe bush is the personification of evil, just as some see him as Gods hand.
killing human is morally wrong and every normal human being will tell you that no matter where he comes from. those who sacrificed people for the gods didn't think they were doing good they thought that if they don't do it there wouldn't be rain or that gods would send floods or earthquakes that would kill them .the difference is when you kill to save you're own life or someone elses... that is what is called necesarry evil and is not really good but is done for the greater good
Quote from: baodur on October 03, 2006, 05:44:34
killing human is morally wrong and every normal human being will tell you that no matter where he comes from. those who sacrificed people for the gods didn't think they were doing good they thought that if they don't do it there wouldn't be rain or that gods would send floods or earthquakes that would kill them .the difference is when you kill to save you're own life or someone elses... that is what is called necesarry evil and is not really good but is done for the greater good
Yes but morally wrong does not equate with evil. Morals are a human concept (just like evil); they have no absolute value outside of any single point in cultural history.
in my opinon, good and evil are ideals of existing. we exist and we consider that anything that will hinder our physical existence is "evil". eg) murder and such are contrary to survival, and thus are considered "evil", while helping people, healing people and the like are considered "Good" because they promote existing and help survival of the individual and the population. really, i see "good" and "evil" as stemming from either ones own drive for survival or a survival drive imparted by an individuals society, although it all comes down to the individual, because it depends on what they feel helps or hinders their own survival or the survival of the ones they care about.
:-P(in your face ying and yang)
-Thoughts
Quote from: loppoppy on May 24, 2006, 18:31:31
I'm just curious on peoples thoughts on what separates good from evil. What are their main differences. are they opposites or enemies? things like that.
appreciate any replies in advance thank you.
Good is Collective and Unitary. Evil is individualistic.
Good is Civilized. Evil is Barbaric.
Good is Giving. Evil is taking.
Even in the Grey Regions, good and evil are distinguishable. Sins of appetite, passion, and impulses of the flesh do not so easily attach to the Spirit. But contemplated and planned sins done for advantage or profit, these deliberate sins indicate a rotten and corrupt Spirit. (and Angel once gave me a lecture concerning this, calling these different categories of Sin "Red Sins" and "Black Sins". A Spirit can easily transcend the Red Sins when the body is transcended. But the Black Sins are independent of the body and become integral to the Soul itself, defining it in Evil.
We can learn alot about how we are programmed by observing what we classify as good or as evil.
Jeffery Dahmer was in pain his whole life, the only way he found to express it was to kill people and drink alot. Bush drank alot. He may also be at least partially responsible for the 655,000 non-combatant Iraqi folks who've died as a result of the war, and the torture of more people than Sadam ever ordered. And reveling in the killing of al-Zarqawi may be considered evil its self.
"Nazi's killed Communists, does that make them good?" Does that mean you think Communists are evil? Many people think capitalists are evil. However, can everyone born in to an economic system be either good or bad?
Even with human or heroin trafficing. Who's to blame? The junky? The trafficker? The investors? The system which rewards the use of slaves? The pressures which cause a junky to escape on a fix? The schools which didn't teach empathy? Perhaps a brain and evolutionary legacy which makes us think that physical accumulation and ego fortification will give our genes a safer chance at surviving.
The law and justice system, telling people what is good and what is safe. This system is often the source of more pain than that which landed people in its hands.
This is life. It's all just a bunch of scared people trying to make themselves, and occasionally others, safe according to what they know and how they feel.
As RealmExplorer brought up, I believe in nonduality. Everything is the same thing.
Quote"If the universe doesn't have a spectrum then how can it be divided over frequencies? And if the universe didn't care about us then it wouldn't have wasted energy on gifting us with its consciousness."
As for this quote, I should remind that this is an Integral Philosophy forum, and that Ken Wilber, the founder of Integral Philosophy talks alot about heirarchy, and the hollowness of value judgement based on heirarchy. As a nondualist, I answer the second question thusly: Everything is God. Everything has consciousness. Any person or thing you can label as 'evil' is simply an aspect of yourself (ourself) which you deny expression.
All I can do is soothe pain and promote love, I think we can mostly agree on that. But how can we promote love with we don't practice love, even for those who cause pain.
Poor Bush.... always being compared to such evil. That doesn't sound like practicing love. In your opinion, Bush causes pain..so why bash and not love?
I fall into the catergory of thinking that people inheritently know good from evil, or right from wrong.
An example was given about murder being evil, but killing someone in war is not considered so. That view holds for society but not for the individual. Most soldiers returning from war don't see themselves as heroes, though the media may try an sell them as such. Indeed, they often don't like talking about their ordeal at all, and why would they? Knowing that killing is wrong, they have gone and done it anyway, all be it at the behest of their Government.
The Holocaust was sanctioned by Nazi law, so did that make it right to commit genicide? No, of course not, and the SS that paid for the crimes were essentially told they should have realised so and disobeyed orders. They should have known inheritently they were doing evil.
Killing is wrong. War is wrong. Just because an action is sanctioned by law doesn't make it any less evil.
Meneleus.
What I belive what good and evil are:
To me, Evil is a malevolent controlling force, wishing only what it wants and not caring about anything else: an Idol, a singular object controlling it's subjects telling then how things work, what things are, and what to do, much Like a dictatorship or Christianity (of a bunch or religions for that matter :roll: ). However if you kill or destroy the idol the confused pawns become lost and run amok (much like in starcraft where the zerg did when the cerebrate Zasz was killed: his brood went nuts and had to be killed.)
Good on the other hand is not a controlling force, but a working force, several minds focused on one goal: get 'er done. (a little larry the cable guy for ya :D ) Although there may be a leader in this "working force", the leader isn't the mind, but rather the leader and the workers are the mind. that way the leader could die and the workers could function on thier own, or they could simply replace the leader, like the Borg, (they were the best example, even though they were malicious in Star trek :-P ) or a hive of bees.
====
of course things could change in either system...
for example, corruption of the leader's intentions away from the intentions of the force could result of an either an uprising or conflict.
Uprising happens when either force leader completely loses control over thier force, and are then attacked and eventually destroyed or removed/replaced.
Conflict isn't much different, but rather those in the force who's intentions conflict with the leader's would go off, find thier own leader or start thier own group to compete against thier original group.
Well thats my 3 bucks :-D
The distinction between "perceived good" and "perceived evil" is intimately tied in with one's view and understanding of the reality we express.
I use the "perceived" qualification because the valuation depends primarily on each individual's upbringing and societal context, both of which change in time.
If you take away the human interpretation (as understodf by the general phiosophical thought) and view the world and actions therein as purely what they are you get a different dualism. That of constructive and destructive. The two polarities here refer to the ability of each member of a given group to reach their full potential.
The destructive acts generally stifle the individual while the constructive ones spur the individual to greater heigths. Caveat: At the same time the very same act may do the exact opposite, ie. what is supportive and conductive of personal beterment for individual may be the diametric for another and vice versa.
What comes out of that? Good versus evil is entirely a human concept based on a consensus of individual points of view.
And what comes out of that? The most saintly of actions may cause more harm than the most evil of action in the same circumstances.
And WTF comes after that? The debate between god and evil is irrelevant. You should always be true to yourself and as a consequence accept the well consequences. DO that and there's no difference between god and evil other than not striving to be You.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Oh boy. Where should I begin? :-D
Evil is false contentment, it is ignorance of the true nature of things and the acceptance of one's subjective judgements as the ultimate truth. True contentment is the achievement of unconditional love for all that is, as it is, always (obviously this includes the love and acceptance of yourself). In this sense, evil exists as an acceptance of the condition of separation in the mind - the acceptance of any compromise to unconditional love. To put this into another perspective, to judge a person as evil is evil. Unconditional love and beingness are the same, only different in perceived degree. Therefor, we all have both good and evil in us, yet beingness is formless and therefor degreeless (meaning that the only real degrees we see are shades of evil, not good, for only unconditional love is absolute). A lack of self awareness is the problem. Judging the situations and vicissitudes of life in respect to their varying shades of evil does no good. Increasing your own awareness until it encompasses all things is the only solution. Until you can accomplish that, however, you find yourself lost in a world of relativity and an infinite diversity of answers to an infinite diversity of problems. Yet, in truth, all acts are (as "A Course in Miracles" says, yet I find this to be increasingly true in my own life) either love or a call for love. The evil judge things against the relative, whilst the good judge only against the absolute [EDIT: My bad, this should say "It is evil to judge things against the relative, whilst it is good to judge only against the absolute"]. The evil you see is a lack of unconditional love on your part, not the fault of what you perceive as evil. The obvious reason for this is that, in reality, you cannot see the judgements of others! They don't exist! Going deeper, if you look at the original meaning of the word sin (correct me if I'm wrong) it simply means "missing the mark". The mark is perfection, holiness, unconditional love, or simply complete nonjudgementalism. To say it differently, everybody has a pure heart and all evil is a misperception. Unconditional love is the only thing you really want, yet you cannot know this for certain until you have felt it. All else would be a compromise and lead you astray for as long as you mistake your heart's true desire to love for some feeling, opinion, trinket, person, situation, or anything else. Evil ignores, while good becomes aware. They are two differing directions of consciousness, one expands while the other contracts. Wisdom shows one the way to the good, the way to expand. While wisdom can teach much, it can only go so far. True wisdom cannot be understood without love, and love cannot be understood without true wisdom. Wisdom is both the state of being and the words simultaneously, because they both just are. Love is the extension of being. All pretenses for love are evil for as long as you accept them. The good accept only what is, thus they accept no compromise for the love infinite. Love must come from within, not sought from without.
There are two differing states of mind, one holy, one worldly - one wholly and one wordy. Which one will you accept as the ultimate truth? Will you ultimately become the silence between your thoughts, or the final judgement of all your words? Think hard, but not too much. You need not accept what I have written as your truth, we each have our own point of view, but then again, we are all really nothing but a point of view itself. Looking at it that way, what is the difference between your truth and mine if it is not the ultimate truth? I attempt to give words to silence here - a vibration to what has none. The words can lead you to the same source as mine only as long as you pass no judgements on them. The truth is self evident, always. You need not search for it, for it is Who You Really Are. Good and evil both lead to the same ultimate truth in the end. All things are in constant change, and yet the observer never changes. Become an observer in all things. Become the truth. Let unconditional love flow through you by simply releasing all conditions that you think there are and see only those that exist (love or the call for love). A call for love is most assuredly not evil, yet should you attempt to answer it you must first realize that you can give only what you have. The ineffable oneness that is all things knows when it sees itself, for there is only one. Unconditional love is the only truth and yet it is nothing before you make it real. Realize this, and you shall know yourself, the good, and the evil all at once. These are only words set before you, it is up to you to make them real.
So, will you choose to be evil, or will you choose to be good? Whatever you choose, you cannot cease to be. The good and the true are not thoughts, and the evil and the false are not reality. See all only as it is, and you will see only the good and the truth. Seeing both the good and the true in everything, you will see them in yourself. Thus shall you become the way, the truth and the life. Show the way by being the way, there is no other way, always.
wow i created this topic ages ago...and i have some new thoughts on it! =)
say someone massacred a group of school children with a butcher knife just because they felt like it and thought it would be fun!! that is unquestionably evil...even the person doing it knows it's evil, but he doesn't care! because he is evil!
you can't say that anyone would percieve that as good. Good is the person who runs into that room and stops the action of evil. This sort of situation is rare of course as it is a rather extreme situation. but thinking about it things like that happen every day but on a less severe level. When a child is beaten up at school because he has a funny shaped nose, who could percieve that as a good action? maybe the word evil is a little extreme in such a case, but it is still unquestionably wrong.
When i originally asked this question i did not mean in the context of things that were down to how you percieve it such as cultural traditions or the actions of extremists and the leaders of the world.
In fact when i first asked this question i was hardly thinking about physical situations at all, i was thinking outside this box into the other planes where certain positive and negative beings dwell, whose existence is based on their will to carry out good or evil actions and what makes them different from one another.
Of course the answer is obvious, the difference between good and evil is that evil indulges in destruction and havoc and good indulges in creation, progression and maintaining peace.
regardless, whether on this plane or the others, good and evil exist and physically the actions and consequences of these two things are seen every day through stories of rape and abuse or charity work and lets say a firefighter pulling people from a burning building...saying it's all down to how people percieve it, is foolish. Maybe in some cases, but definitely not overall...
hahaha...i've missed this site...
If that's how you judge it.
Quote from: Starvingpercussionist on June 13, 2008, 00:16:21
If that's how you judge it.
was that in relation to my answer on the difference between good and evil? in that case fair enough the differences can be judged many ways but that way fits for me..
or was it in relation to a firefighter saving someone being good and a rapist or a man massacring a group of children being evil? coz if anyone has differing judgments on that then they're screwed..
You can never know all the aspects of any one situation (ever heard of "chaos theory"?), yet you can rest assured that the only thing everybody really wants is unconditional love. Unconditional love comes from within, it has to or else it is dependant on conditions. Who knows, hypothetically the person that murders a bunch of kids for fun might be forgiven by the parents of those kids and turn around to become a decent person who might actually accomplish something with his life if he were given the chance. What I'm trying to say is that you just don't know all the different outcomes or determinants in a situation so don't judge it, but see it for what it is in the moment. Yes, help in whatever way you can, of course, but just don't judge for your own sake.
Quote from: Starvingpercussionist on June 13, 2008, 13:05:19
yet you can rest assured that the only thing everybody really wants is unconditional love.
thats not necessarily true..
Quote from: Starvingpercussionist on June 13, 2008, 13:05:19
Who knows, hypothetically the person that murders a bunch of kids for fun might be forgiven by the parents of those kids and turn around to become a decent person who might actually accomplish something with his life if he were given the chance. What I'm trying to say is that you just don't know all the different outcomes or determinants in a situation so don't judge it, but see it for what it is in the moment.
hypothetically maybe, but by looking at it as you said for what it is in the moment, then that person would be considered evil. And undoubtedly the action itself is evil thus proving my original point that evil exists. Throughout life that man may do many good and evil actions (yet again proving my point that evil and good exist) but it is the end balance between the two types of actions that his soul is judged on when he passes. But of course we cannot know what that end balance will be, so when a man commits mass murder, we see it for what it is in the moment like you said which is evil.
Or you could see the obvious truth that the judgement only exists in your mind. Sure, you can say that others are not acting in unconditional love and are by my definition acting evil, but then again they probably never will act in unconditional love until you can, and unconditional love does not judge people. Remember, we are one consciousness subjectively experiencing itself in an infinity of forms. That consciousness by itself is good, and that's why there's good in everyone - yet at the same time, until you become entirely good you will see evil in people. The evil is judgementalism itself, it is ignorance of the heart's true desire to love. Goodness overlooks evil and forgives. Remember what I said, you cannot see the judgements of other people - obviously the judgements are only in their minds as long as you don't copy them into yours. People are not ideas, they are a living reality. As long as you equate people with ideas you will be hating them because you will be degrading their worth in your own mind. I'm not saying you have to view everything that people do as good, but that you should judge on another basis entirely: love or a call for love.
To be a little more clear, there are evil actions, yet they are only actions out of ignorance - ignorance of the natural desire to have love. The thing is, when you judge somebody as evil, you judge him as worthy of punishment. Love sees the opposite, it sees simply somebody who needs love. I don't judge you for judging me as being "foolish" because it's obvious to me that you don't know what unconditional love really feels like. I have not yet achieved a permenant condition of unconditional love, but then again I don't judge myself for not being it, and I wouldn't judge myself for acting "evil" because it really is nothing but a temporary state of mind. It's all about how you choose to see it. The man committing mass murder, committed mass murder. That's simply what happened without judgement attached. Would I stop him if I had the chance? Hell yes I would. Yet the only truly good answer would be if I could extend unconditional love to him to heal his mind of the desire not to love in the first place.
The point here is this: before you remove the speck of dirt from your brother's eye, take out the plank from yours.
PS. - Maybe it would be better to say that love doesn't judge but merely asesses the situation. To say that love 'judges' on a basis of an action as love or a call for love is a bit confusing.
you assume i do not know unconditional love? i have unconditional love for a person and i know it well, and as for the mass murderer i wouldn't feel the need to punish him either. The action is evil and like you i would try to stop it, but i would not punish the murderer for it.. It's not my place! If that same mass murderer later in life was in a situation where i could save his life, then i would. Like i said it's the end balance that is judged, i can't let past actions alter my ability to do the right thing, which is to save a human life, no matter what acts it has comitted.
"The thing is, when you judge somebody as evil, you judge him as worthy of punishment"
not at all..
"Goodness overlooks evil and forgives."
it should be pointed out that this doesnt happen blindly, only once the evil deserves to be forgiven once it ha suffered enough or until it makes up for it with repentance and continuation of good actions.
"As long as you equate people with ideas you will be hating them because you will be degrading their worth in your own mind"
i disapprove of the action, not the person, like i said i was wrong to say that the action makes the person evil conclusively. I do well not to degrade a human beings worth..
"it's obvious to me that you don't know what unconditional love really feels like"
be mindful of what your so sure of, in this case what seemed obvious to you was totally wrong.
i was wrong to say that after commiting an evil act then it is concluded that person is evil. I may not be able to judge the person without it being just my own perception, but i can judge the act and it will remain true enough. Are you saying that the soul is incapable of judgment due to it's unconditional love? or just the factor of unconditional love itself?
because i would correct you by saying that the soul judges itself after it's life has ended as to determine it's next steps.
i totally see your point and i agree with what your saying. This all started with my simple error of saying the person is evil and not just the action. Perhaps because of this you misjudged my disposition on this subject =P. Which is fair enough.
Yet again i point out that my original point still stands, EVIL EXISTS! XD...i think we have moved onto a different topic now altogether, and i believe that has been resolved and agreed on aswell =).
You know, I never actually saw this as an arguement, but as me elaborating on my point. I apologize if I misinterpreted your position. Thank you for your replies. 8-) I usually write too fast and end up contradicting myself sometimes, so it takes someone like you to call me out whenever you see something that doesn't quite fit (or is downright wrong). Talking from a higher perspective that I haven't quite reached yet, I sometimes miscommunicate the message I'm trying to get across. When I say unconditional love, I'm really talking about a love that is unlimited and all-encompassing - a different state of being entirely where thinking is not at all necessary (a state I've felt only for as long as I completely cleared my mind of all thoughtforms and accepted only the here and the now as reality). I probably should have specified things like that at the beginning. :-P Thinking deep is easy for me, yet thinking clearly is not. :oops:
There's a few clarifications I'd like to make though. About forgiveness, remember this: 'forgiving is for giving love'. It's to clear your mind of the judgement so that you can open your heart to love, not because they necessarily deserve it. About good and evil - as long as you need a touchstone to keep you on track, I'd say (again) that evil is simply ignorance and unconditional love is the only good. So yes, evil exists, but it's not what most people would judge it as.
"Thinking deep is easy for me, yet thinking clearly is not. "
haha i totally get that.
erm yes, a spirited debate where both sides are emphasising their point, my favourite kind of discussion =).
"a different state of being entirely where thinking is not at all necessary (a state I've felt only for as long as I completely cleared my mind of all thoughtforms and accepted only the here and the now as reality)."
i know of this state, though i believed it was an incomplete state, only complete once enlightenment is attained. It's a special feeling, hopefully i can experience it totally one day =)
Some would call this state enlightenment itself, although I think of all enlightenment as a process. I believe that this state is simply having self awareness, body awareness, and environment awareness all at once permenantly. So it's really about being here, now, the way I see it.
there technially isnt good and evil but evil and netural.
there are people who do evil then be who do both.
but on another suject.
if the world was perfect it would be boring
and if it was evil we would destroy ourselves.
there is no perfect balance but both need to exist
little more good in the world wouldn't hurt...and it sure wouldn't bore me
a small example...knife crime in my area is the highest in the country or something close to that...and even though i'm not getting stabbed, if i'm ever about the town with my friends we face confrontation.
i would much rather go about the town with nothing going on rather then my life being threatened haha.
just because something is not bad does not mean it is boring, i rather enjoy peace, and i find fun without someone getting hurt much more satisfying.
it is true both are needed for us to exist...but this has nothing to do with if there was only evil we would destroy ourselves and if there was only good we would get bored...it is because if life was perfect it would be too easy, and we would not face the appropriate challenges we need to grow and learn about our selves. life would be great constantly, and we would not learn anything from it, life would be in a repetitive and motionless loop. And if it was all evil, we would not be able to grow from our experiences because we theres is so much bad going on it would be overwhelming and we would not be allowed to break free as there would be nothing to break free to.
these days evil and such seem to have the upperhand though...progress is difficult for me, and i take any good i can and indulge in it, bonding me to this material plane through desperation because that good is so rare to find i cling to it. not much of a balance goin on rele...sort tht out...
If evil is necessary, then why do we struggle against it?
because it is necessary for us to do so.
and more importantly because we choose to! Choice is a huge factor
come on now ur losing your touch =P that was almost too easy XD.
But why is evil necessary? What is the good that are we preserving from destruction by evil and for what purpose do we preserve it? Is it that innocence is the good, something that will be lost in time eventually, or is it that innocence reminds us of something else? What is the end that good aims towards? Is it perfection, or something else?
If good is something other than unconditional love, then why is it that good is vulnerable to evil? Is it because we have a choice to choose it or not, or because goodness itself is weak?
evil is necessary because without it we wouldn't be able to grow stronger and progress would stop.
"What is the good that we are preserving from destruction by evil and for what purpose do we preserve it?"
There are many questions like these. The answers would bring you a lot closer to the truth. The good is the resulting force created from a certain purpose, choice and perception of the self. We preserve it because only this force can move us in the direction we have to go. If we gave into evil we would be trapped as we are and even break down into lower forms of being.
The end that good aims towards is unknown, but we know in ourselves that there is something to move towards...and until we get there, we won't know what to do next. Is there even an end we are moving towards, or just something that is constantly growing or is unreachable?
good is as vulnerable to evil as evil is vulnerable to good. on a physical level people can be influenced by either very easily due to the choices they make.
good is not weak!
putting it in terms of light and dark:
no matter how much darkness surrounds the soul as long as there is a spec of light then the darkness can not win. Light and dark are both very powerful forces but work in different ways. Light may seem weak when compared to darkness, but that is just because it's power works in a different way to darkness.
sorry to put it like that, some people get all roudy when i use good and evil as light and dark...but u get my point.
Good answer. I consider good to be a new beginning, not an end in and of itself. If good is, as you say, "the resulting force created from a certain purpose, choice, and perception of the self" then what would be the resulting force of a consciousness in a state of unconditional love? Unconditional love is not a thought, it is a lack of need for thoughts - something unimaginable, yet something possible for every human being to achieve. What you also say is very close to what I deduced, in that "good is as vulnerable to evil as evil is vulnerable to good" because of the fact that unconditional love can spread from consciousness to consciousness.
I think that we could grow much stronger and progress much farther actually if we had a base of unconditional love to build from (and towards greater expression of).
unconditional love is a choice, a perception of self and can be used to define a purpose, the resulting force is one of purity, truth and the ability to make a lot of things possible =). A force to be reckoned with to be sure =).
Any kind of love is not a thought, it is an emotion. Love is the closest emotion you can physically feel to what you are calling unconditional love, a very good label for that particular state if i do say so myself.
Very well said for the most part, i couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Nay on October 23, 2006, 11:41:43
Poor Bush.... always being compared to such evil. That doesn't sound like practicing love. In your opinion, Bush causes pain..so why bash and not love?
It's obvious to me you still have strong feelings for the former president. :)
There is no "good".
There is no "evil".
There is only a whole.
Good old conversations sometimes just need another glance. Admittedly I have not read through every post so my answer goes as follows.
Difference Between Good and Evil?
Good makes you feel happy, content, satisfied = Loved
Evil makes you feel afraid, angry unsatisfied = Not Loved
Everything else is a matter of perception and how we get to one or the other. But more importantly it's how we get from fear to love.
If you'd like a nice read, the website is my daily inspiration:
Volume VII - In an Eastern Rose Garden
THE PRESENCE OF GOD
QuoteWhat is really good? The answer is, there is no such thing as good or evil. There is beauty. That which is beautiful, we call good. That which is ugly compared with the beautiful, we call evil: whether it is custom, idea, thought or action. This shows that this whole phenomenon of the universe is the phenomenon of beauty. Every soul has an inclination to admire beauty, to seek for beauty, to love beauty, and to develop beauty. Even God loves beauty.
In all ages the various religions have given different standards of good and evil, calling them virtue and sin. The virtue of one nation has been the sin of another. The virtue of the latter is the sin of the former. Travel as we may through the world, or read the histories and traditions of nations as we may, we shall still find that what one calls evil, another calls good. That is why no one can succeed in making a universal standard for good and evil. The discrimination between good and evil is in man's soul. Every man can judge that for himself, because in every man is the sense of admiration of beauty. But he is not satisfied with what he does himself, he feels a discomfort, a disgust with his own efforts. There are many people who continue some weakness or some mistake, or who are intoxicated by some action which the world calls evil or which they themselves call evil, yet go on doing it. But a day comes when they also are disgusted. Then they wish for suicide. There is no more happiness for them. Happiness only lies in thinking or doing that which one considers beautiful. Such an act becomes a virtue or goodness. That goodness is beauty.
What is beauty? One sees beauty of form, and beauty without form. Beauty of thought, beauty of feeling, beauty of ideal. Not only does one see beauty in flowers and fruit trees, but one sees still greater beauty in imaginations and thoughts. One feels one could give all one's wealth or life for a beautiful thought or a beautiful dream.
Full article,
https://wahiduddin.net/mv2/VII/VII_31.htm
The concept of "evil" is the product of developing personalities in the lower frequency realms of learning. It is lack of knowledge. It is a projection of our own believes and fears. We create it within our personal realities and en mass as collective consciousness. And one of our lessons to learn here is to recognize that. The natural state of the multiverse is joy and love. No need to battle evil. If we do, we are battling ourselves, because we are the originators of it. We are battling parts of our own selves. We observe of course that bad things happen here and exist. Yes that is true, but if we understand its origin, fear will be dissolve and on a personals level we will no longer encounter like events and interactions. We can continue observing what the rest of the world is experiencing, but it wont affect us much. We will understand that those who are affected by its presence have still to learn.
Another perspective.
No matter who you are : evil is what opposes you. - you are evil to those your energy-and-activity opposes.
If the pattern works only one way it is not structurally sound.
Not whole. not balanced. not just.