creationism and evolution

[no_leaf_clover]

thats exactly what zecharia sitchin claims: men were evolving from apes, and then got a little 'divine' help from higher beings. []

[beav31is]

I prefer the truth over making people happy. Theres lots of evidence for evolution. Something probably created the place we are now, but it could have been made by me or some other spirit. The amount of power "god" has described in religions is not necessary.

[James S]

I agree with somwhere in the middle also. It's always been my opinion that things were created to evolve.

Hard-line arguments for either side are all full of holes.

James.

[no_leaf_clover]

beavis, sitchin's goal isn't to make people happy by making compromises on such issues.

there are huge holes in the evolution of humans, and the holes *aren't* from millions of years ago! the holes are recent. neanderthal to cro-magnon. where is the link? there is none! yet the differences are outstanding: gained height, slightly less sturdy bodies, completely different facial features, especially the chin, and the most outstanding of all, the transition from nomadic habits to farming! how could such we have gained so much in such a short amount of time? it took us millions of years (millions! think about that number) to evolve from the genus australopithecus to the genus homo. then, with a change every bit as drastic as the whole transition of the whole genus australopithecus to homo, there is a transition within the genus homo itself: neanderthal to sapien.

it's funny, because right after this sudden and drastic change, the sumerians existed. and the sumerians recorded what happened, but we take it as a mythology. the sumerians said beings came down from a planet within our system and created us from what already existed here: neanderthals. the sumerians were not a stupid group of people, either. sumeria gave birth to the worlds first buildings, music, musical notes, restaurants, economy, prostitutes, brickmakers, road systems, and many other things we think of as more modern. and this was the *first* civilization on earth. from here on, ancient civilization peaks and then deteriorates into the dark ages where we re-emerge and start thinking for ourselves rather than relying on ancient knowledge (and we lost a lot of ancient technology in the process. we do not know how the romans built some of their most massive temples, like the temple to jupiter near jerusalem, and we marvel and their expert use of water systems. their temple to jupiter alone would be considered impossible if it didn't still stand today. 1200 ton slabs of rock were lifted high into the air and rested on slabs of rock almost as big that were somehow lifted to stand vertically. on top of that, this was on a mountainside. modern technology would be hard pressed to duplicate this effort, and we haven't even finished searching through this temple to jupiter. some believe when it is fully uncovered, it shall be revealed that the temple used more labor and rock than the pyramids of giza themselves.).

there's a lot to account for, and the only thing that's logical, *isn't* logical, by modern science anyway. but like i've said before, modern science isn't all its cracked up to be. we have absolutely no idea on some things, and just make educated guesses..

[beav31is]

Dna changes. Everything has dna. Thats enough evidence.

But theres lots more evidence. The list of similarities between species is huge. If they werent related, they would be more different than they are. Some of them wouldnt be carbon based. Some would have an odd number of eyes, ears, etc. Humans wouldnt have animal brains below the outer part of their brains. Why do most mammals have 4 legs (including arms)? Why not 6, 5, or 3? Why do the same viruses infect so many different species? Why is it possible to put organs from one species into another? All that and you complain about bones. Bones arent the major evidence.

This only means that evolution happened. It does not rule out alien genetic manipulation.

Building pyramids (on earth and other planet(s)) is impressive. They probably had better technology or paranormal abilities.

[no_leaf_clover]

i wasn't arguing against evolution, i'm saying it doesn't answer everything. it's not a perfect theory when it comes to humans. it just doesn't work for the past few thousand years. dna doesn't change that fast. the individual traits focus in on a certain quality, and eventually more things change. survival of the fittest.

the pyramids, imo, of course, weren't built by the ancients. that was a task even the romans couldn't take on, not because of the required labor, but because of the geometry within the pyramid itself. for the egyptians to have used such accurate geometry on 3 pyramids alone, and have the others look like crap (we are told that the egyptians 'peaked' with those three, and that the ones after them also looked like crap x.x), should be a good sign something's going on beyond what we are told. also, you would have to acknowledge that the greeks weren't the first to expand upon algebra and geometry so greatly. the great pyramids were the only ones not to have inscriptions on the wall.. thats yet another fishy fact. and while the casings of all the other pyramids has corroded (leaving being the step pyramid), the great pyramids still have their limestone casings, in fairly good condition. there's also the fact that the great pyramids were completely void of the bodies of the people who supposively made them. only later intrusion burials were found. and what about that empty, never-entered-since-its-construction 'king's chamber'?

if you want to know where the pyramids *really* came from, buy 'the stairway to heaven' by zecharia sitchin and read the last 3 or so chapters.

[imora]

I don't know much about the pyramid or the evolution of homo (I like homo erectus), and never heard of Sitchin, but it looks like the book written by Sitchin is worth a look.  Thanks for mentioning it.
It gets sooo interesting when you think about the first homo sapiens.  There must have been at least one very first mother and a father.  Is it more probable to start a species from one mother or hundreds of mothers?  It's likely that hundreds of them "mutated" at the same time.  The odds of that happening is astronomical.  Also, odds of the birth of life out of non organic material is astronomical.  Do you really believe that your mother's mother's mother's .... mother's mother is one celled organism?  Common sense tells me that something is doing a wonderful job of creation, or "manipulation of DNA".

[no_leaf_clover]

i'm not sure, but i guess evolution is just gradual from person to person, and you wouldn't really be able to easily tell the difference between one species and another until millions of years have passed. thats why homo sapiens sapiens (us) are alien to this time period.. we evolved too fast. scientifically speaking, we should still be living in caves with rock tools, just starting to develop a primitive language. that's what we would be doing if we had kept a steady pace while evolving from apes.

only three things can explain this.. 1) we were altered genetically by something (annunaki, as stated by sitchin), 2) we were created ('god created...'), 3) a freak genetic accident, severe mutations on more than one person...

the thing thats wrong with being created is the fact that there is a collection of fossils that shows primitve versions of us evolving over millions of years. this is perfectly logical, reasonable, and explains lots of things.. up until homo sapiens sapiens. then all the laws of evolution fall apart and don't apply anymore.

the problem with a freak genetic accident that would cause such fast evolution is the sheer probability. like imora said, the probability of this is astronomical.

the problem with being genetically altered by aliens is that it sounds crazy and people won't accept it. other than that, perfectly logical pieces of evidence are offered by many sources, especially sitchin (and sitchin used hundreds of legitimate sources for his work).

the books *are* worthwhile. when i first sat down with 'the 12th planet', i was expecting to read a book on how evolution falls apart as modern times are approached. but i got a lot more than that.. it changed my religious beliefs drastically. i don't even fool with religion anymore. i just want to become much more metaphysical.. to astral project, and experience what's really out there, the whole universe.

[Athios]

"scientifically speaking, we should still be living in caves with rock tools"

Hmm....I'm wondering why this can't be explained just by us 'being smart'? You know, language, society, learning from other people, specialization of roles in the society, etc...

I don't think it's all in our genes. The progress we've made is a collective effort of all the people before us...  []

[no_leaf_clover]

think about it, athios.. if, scientifically speaking, we should still be living in caves with rock tools, that jump to language and civilization should have never occured, making it impossible for us to learn so quickly. []

that is the real mystery, because when sumeria popped up, it shouldn't have. and it wasn't just a large group of farms, as one might expect for the first civilization. no, they had buildings, streets, restaurants, marketplaces, sea ports, music, musical notes, and even hookers. that sounds like a bit too much of a jump, considering they came right from living nomadically off of the land.

and unfortunately, athios, we don't retain technology in our genes. we can carry instructions for a bigger brain (and our brains have not increased in size that much since the first homo sapien; we have once again went back to our slow evolving process as it was before neanderthals), but not instructions for building a memory of how to build rocket ships, or building a building out of clay. we have to experience these things to easily comprehend them, and that just makes sumeria more of a marvel, with its sea ports and written musical notes.

[cainam_nazier]

You know I had a really good train of thought going on this subject but my brain just gave up on me so never mind.

[SilverSlider]

I just want to comment on the pyramids and other ancient marvels. When the library in Alexandria burned down weren't we supposedly set back technologically thousands of years? If this is the case then that could explain why they could make the things that boggle our minds today. If the technology setback is right, then that seems logical.

Brad

[no_leaf_clover]

an article i found states that many believe the library was burned by the muslims as islam spread into the area (this particular Alexandria appears to be in egypt. there are many alexandrias, as alexander the great named many newly founded cities after himself).

but..

quote:Encyclopedia Britanica says that the Alexandrian Library had, in fact, been destroyed much earlier, in the fourth century A.D, long before the advent of Islam: "The library survived the disintegration of Alexander's empire (first century BC) and continued to exist under Roman rule until the third century AD."3 The truth is that one half of this library was burnt by Julius Caesar in 47 BC. In the third century, Alexandria came under the domination of Christians. At another place the same work states that, "The main museum and library were destroyed during the civil war of the third century AD and a subsidiary library was burned by Christians in AD 391."

the article also says..

quote:Ptolemy II, who became the ruler of Egypt after Alexander the Great in the third century BC, was a great patron of learning, and founded <the> library in Alexandria, Egypt, which contained about 5,00,000 books on different subjects...

so this *was* the right library. a truly massive library for its time. the egyptians also had museum-like buildings, of some strange name i do not recall, and sitchin points out that the museums displayed many artifacts left by the annunaki themselves. i wouldn't be surprised if the burning of that library *helped* set us back as we entered into the dark ages, in terms of architecture. but, more importantly, much information on the annunaki was probably stored there as well. it's a shame..

[TorosDead]

Evolution is definately a fact, but I honestly think we were made of God in his likeness.  For starters... if man evolved from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?  Man obvious lived all over the world before there was travel, so why did only some monkeys all over the world evolve and not all of them?  Secondly, it is true that through millions of years animals evolve to adapt to their environment.  But mankind has evolved to adapt using intellect, not by changing their form.  We invent and come up with new ideas.  If we are simply animals, why do no other animals evolve in this way.  Humans are the only creatures that use our imaginations to come up with new ideas, rather than waiting for time to simply change us.  Also keep in mind that we have only fragments and broken peices of "the missing link", no real, in tact skeletons.  Humanity isn't like the rest of the "animals" on this planet.  All other animals co-exist together and benefit in their own way to the earth and eachother.  Human beings however are the only species in this world that can choose themselves whether to destroy a species or save it.  We differ enormously from simply animals because we are divine children of God, not because we just got lucky somewhere along the line.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:if man evolved from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?

That is a misconception. Man could not have evolved from monkeys or any other species. Man was always man. Man would have evolved from a more primitive state, which may have resembled present day monkeys, but man was never a monkey.

quote:But mankind has evolved to adapt using intellect, not by changing their form.

The first part is clearly true. We have evolved to use intellect. But who is to say that we will never change in form again? No one can really say. Things evolve to adapt to environment. If the Earth's environment changes drasticly I hope that human's can evolve to survive within the new enviroment, otherwise humanity may die off no matter how smart we may think we are.

quote:All other animals co-exist together and benefit in their own way to the earth and eachother.

So do humans. We depend on the Earth and everything in it as much as every other living thing on it. We are not independent of nature. We try to isolate ourselves from it, for some reason, but we are still bound to it. If you think not, next time you eat a steak or a salad think about where it came from.




Knowledge is not evolution. Evolution is a change in form. By loosing knowledge we do not de-evolve. So if we are in a cave grunting or sitting at McDonalds chatting about Astral Projection it does not change who we may be when we look in a mirror.

[beavis]

imora "The odds of that happening is astronomical."

There are an astronomical number of planets to try evolution on, by definition of astronomical.

[DjM]

The ONLY problem with evolution is that it's not understood properly!  A materialist sees only the PHYSICAL body and attempts to explain evoltion via PHYSICAL limitations.  This, of course, leaves most of the Spiritual aspects out of the equation.

Nobody is commenting on the other bodies...as though they don't exist.  It is here that much of evolution's work is being focussed on!  How is one's Astral body different today?

The monkey is a human being who stayed back in evolution!  This is why materialistic thinking scientists have not made sense of it all.  In addition, they don't understand how the Hierarchies play a role in our development.  This makes anything that is proposed- incomplete AND incorrect.

Everything in form degenerates.  We have assumed different forms in every stage of our evolution.  However, evolution occurs exceedingly slowly.  Ergo, these changes are not noticed, by design.

FYI: there are many "secrets" concerning evolution that are ONLY divulged to those "on the path."  It is wise to learn of the Spiritual world by degrees...

[eomaia]

I have created worlds upon worlds, my whole universe.  I have evolved.  I am alive.

I know these things from first-hand experience.

-eomaia scansoria

[imora]

Just mix the two and everyone is happy.[]