Why do you believe in a god/creator

[ralphm]

i know that there is more to existence than the physical -but god? seems so far advanced from  where we are that we should not even speculate. i was just in a used book store- so much on the subject-rudolf steiner wrote volumnes, the urantia book, eastern guru's by the dozens,  it was enough!!!!!!! buddha was smart-he would not even go there. my favorite poster from the sixties was the big smiling face of meher baba with DON'T WORRY-BE HAPPY at the bottom.
to make it even more complicated some people think we were created by an alien race!

[Ides315]

Hi, good questions.

I as long as I can remember, I have believed in a ying/yang theory sort of as good and evil. It was my research into magick, that really first convinced me of a God. Ceremonial magick, that allows an establishment of that link solidified it for me.

Now for the "proof" as it exists for me. I have been "touched", by both God and Jesus. Not in any "chosen" way. Just when I was ready to let them in. One time while our pastor was giving prayers to help us, and another time meditating on the holy trinity. I can, the majority of the time make a connection to the divine, and get specific fellings in church. I have never had a time where I felt like my prayers were "unheard", and have generally have responses from almost immediate to a gradual change in the course of events. It depends on what I am asking. Once I accepted, acknowledgement was more definate.

For solid proof, look at things like the core samples they are taking of the earth. At one point, the whole earth flooded. This is seen in the sedimentation. Something that is interesting, is most scientists trying to "re-create" life from scratch also believe in the divine.

It seems to me that the majority of magickal systems have very strong relegious connections.

Any way, thats my 2 cents.

[cainam_nazier]

Ides315

Thank you for your responce.  At least you believe because you had an experience, not just because you were told.  That is the only thing that really bugs me.  People who can believe in some thing so fully with out any kind of experience or feeling.

"For solid proof, look at things like the core samples they are taking of the earth. At one point, the whole earth flooded. This is seen in the sedimentation. Something that is interesting, is most scientists trying to "re-create" life from scratch also believe in the divine."

Actually for a lot of scientists the idea of a global flood was not in question most of the time.  But I know the real question for them is when.  A sudden rise in temp causeing the polar caps to melt would then cause the Ice Age.  Eventually the caps would reform and balance restored.  What they are really interested in about this is was there a great flood before or after the Ice Age.  This would point very heavily in one direction or the other as to the truth of certain major events of the bible.


ralphm
"i know that there is more to existence than the physical -but god? seems so far advanced from where we are that we should not even speculate. i was just in a used book store- so much on the subject-rudolf steiner wrote volumnes, the urantia book, eastern guru's by the dozens, it was enough!!!!!!! buddha was smart-he would not even go there. my favorite poster from the sixties was the big smiling face of meher baba with DON'T WORRY-BE HAPPY at the bottom.
to make it even more complicated some people think we were created by an alien race!"


So do you understand my asking the question?  You seem to be a like minded individual so let me ask you this.  God create the universe? God created man?  The average person might say yes.   So did God create aliens?  Or did God just create Earth or the Milky Way?   Here is my thought.  Many people tend to believe and say that "aliens in general" are far more advanced than us both technolically and spiritually.  Technologicall I can see this.  Spirituall no.   I look at it this way, "if" God created the universe he created aliens, and if they are so spiritually advanced they would know this concept as well, correct?  So why all the abduction stories of rectile probbing and wierd experimentation?  Would they not think that we are all Gods creatures and in would be bad to treate any thing in that manner?  This leads me to think that well if they do this because they found out that there is no God.  Or he did not create them, and if he did not create them then he did not create the entire universe.  What if he create just the our galaxy?  Then either A) there are a multitutde of Gods out there= number of known galaxies, or B) God is or was a living creature capable of creating such life=technologically advanced, or God is an alien, as in we came from another planet or civilization.  But you know in the end it is going to be the least likely answer.  Things of this magnitude always are.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[steveb]

Greetings,       Why,      " The Wasp plant"

Regards Steve

[ralphm]

i just read this, from carlos casteneda's the active side of infinity. i think it appliesto the discussion.
Infinity is everything that surrounds us. The sourcerers of my lineage call it infinity,the spirit, the dark sea oof awareness.What put you and i together was the intent of infinity.it is impossible to determine what this intent of infinity is, yet it is there, as palpable as you and i are. Sourcerers say that it is  a tremor in the air. The advantage of sourcerers is to know that the tremor in the air exists, and to aquiesce to it without any further ado. For sourcerers, there's no pondering, wondering, or speculating. They know that all they have is the possibility of merging with the intent of infinity, and they just do it.  

[kakkarot]

God. does that word mean a being who created everything and is more powerful than the entire race of humanity could ever hope to achieve? or is a god merely a very powerful entity that can do things that most people couldn't hope to do in their most insightful and "spiritually connected" moments?

for me, both are true, and so i differentiate between then using the capitalized version for the first definition, and the lowercase for the second.

why do i believe in God? i am pretty damned sure i met him once. i won't go into ALL the details since it is fairly personal (and rather humilitating). but around two years after i was baptized, an event occured in my life that put my soul into such complete despair that it felt as though my body would die on me. and the physical pain of the experience prompted me to pray to God to end the pain by either stopping it or by killing me. after a minute or two of this, everything stopped. i couldn't feel my body anymore, nor the pain. i realised i was looking upward at the sky whereas previously i was looking down at the ground. but everything was pitch black. as i looked around, i saw a hole in the sky. it was weird. so i tried to look through the hole, but i couldn't because it felt as though there was some sort of "screen" preventing something from coming through from the other side. i could "feel" into the hole though, and what i felt was what must have been heaven. white light everywhere. (there are more details to the area behind the hole, but i won't post them because that would take up too much space.) i could also see a being who was so powerful that even with the screen in place, the feeling of his authority and presence was almost overwhelming. I believe it was God. he said something to me, and then it ended and i was back in my body looking down at the earth, with the pain subsided to the point where it was a mere inconvenience.

and that is why i believe in God.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[WalkerInTheWoods]

This is a very good question and I am glad everyone is being responsible with it. First let me say that I respect everyone's opinion and Ideas so do not let anything I say offend anyone as it is not intended that way.

I believe that there is a Creator, a God if you wish. I have grown to dislike the word god because to me it brings images of an old man sitting in a shining place dictating events and what not. I do not see God as this or what most people see this being as. God is everything. We are all part of God just that on this low plane we do not see our connection as well. The higher up you move the more the connection is clear until at the highest level you find "God" which is total oneness of all things. I will leave it at this as I do not have time to go into more detail and it is really not that important. I do not want to upset anyone either so this is good enough.

As to why I believe this. It just seems to fit in with my search for now. I do not believe in just accepting what I have been told either. I feel that everyone should search openly. This is what I have done and so far this is what I have found. I am still open and this idea can change. What is important is not to stop searching, build a wall and say this is how it is. We must keep searching and growing and be open to finding new truths.

[distant bell]

I do not belive in a beeing supream to al others pulling the strings.
Some people say that god is the only logical explanation to evolution and the creation of the matter, but in my opinion it dosn´t explain anything. After al it´s just pushing the question one step futher back, for who created god?
I think that we are parts of a greater energy, and that that energy is made up of all living things.. but not a personal god.

Felix


-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[Mobius]

Hi Felix

The same rings true for me also & the main trouble I have with the whole God concept is the chicken & the egg theory, who came first nothingness or God?
If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple.

I'm not sure where I stand on this one as I don't believe either creation or evolution is entirely responsible for our existence. If there are aliens in who's image where they created? Do they believe as a lot of religous people here on earth do, that God was created in "their" image & as far as they know are justified in doing whatever they please if they are monotheistic like many here on earth, created in "their" image, giving them the impression that their actions reflect the wishes of their God.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Ashfo]

quote:Originally posted by Mobius:


The same rings true for me also & the main trouble I have with the whole God concept is the chicken & the egg theory, who came first nothingness or God?
If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple.

Hehe! I hope the irony was not lost on everyone else.... Obviously nature doesnt start off simple if it started with God, and if it started with God then we were created and therefore nature doesnt start simple anyway... Or if god doesnt exist then it did start off simple but thats not to worry because nothing was created.. which makes that comment null, void and incredibly contradictory, ironic and everything else that is somehow connected to those two words.

So far everyones belief on God has been based on personal experiences etc.. Please someone stand up and provide some logical evidence.. its much more fun to refute

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Mobius]

Hey Ashfo

Not sure what your on about there mate, are you saying you have evidence that you have seen God or know God? You said that "Obviously nature doesn't start simple if it started with God".  Doesn't & started are used in the past tense, supposed knowledge is presumed about Gods existence. You said you wanted someone to stand up provide some logical evidence, on what? God? surely you jest, no-one scientific, religous or otherwise has come up with logical evidence in our human existence, so I wouldn't expect it to turn up in a corner of an Astral forum.

Do you have any logical evidence Ashfo? As stated on the first two lines of this topic, it was intended for debate, how can that occur if you demand logical evidence on such a enigmatic subject?

Good journeys all

Mobius

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Mobius:

I'm not sure where I stand on this one as I don't believe either creation or evolution is entirely responsible for our existence. If there are aliens in who's image where they created? Do they believe as a lot of religous people here on earth do, that God was created in "their" image & as far as they know are justified in doing whatever they please if they are monotheistic like many here on earth, created in "their" image, giving them the impression that their actions reflect the wishes of their God.

Do you think that God has an image? If so is it a physical image or the "image" of consciousness?

I find it totally unbelieve that God could have a physical form so there could be no physical image to make man or alien.

[cainam_nazier]

You know this is one of the reasons I like Star Trek so much.  Every race seemed to have a god, and they were all so wildly different and all resposible for all life.  One saying kill the other saying don't.  Then there were the Q.  Were they God and possibly every ones God?

"So far everyones belief on God has been based on personal experiences etc.. Please someone stand up and provide some logical evidence.. its much more fun to refute

- Ashfo"


  There in also lays the problem.  Personal experience is logical evidence for that person.  Is there nothing that you believe based only on an experience?  I personally can think of several things that I believe not because I have scientific data to support it but because I have experienced it.  I know, feel, think, and believe that certain things exist based only on an experience.  But since I have not experienced God I can not prove to myself of the existance of such.  I have experienced things that would refute the laws of physics.  I do not know how it happened but it happened.
  I would go into too much technical detail but for those who know what cooling towers, chillers, and flat plates are.  Normal, towers to chiller or flat plate, then chillers to building, right.  No I had, Building to chillers, then to flate plate, then to towers.  It was 100+ DegF out side and I had 45 DegF water in the cooling towers and over 80 DegF going to the building.  The chiller was running backwards.  Normally imposible but it was happening.

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[distant bell]

It may be that evolution was controled to a certain extent by the group consiousnes of the astral part of al the living. Look at our society, each individual is doing it´s own thing and is a separet beeing, but still there is a whole theing called society, that is more or less inteligently controled by the whole group... even thoug each individual only plays a tiny part. It might be the same with what we cal god- that might just be the "mas is bigger than the separate parts". The inteligence that contoles all might be this cluster of all souls...  
I guess this makes littels sense.. but I´m tired and can´t put it in better words..
Hm..  just look at an ant societ, and I guess you get the point. Each ant is only an ant, but still the ant society as a collective is a inteligent beeing in a way..

Felix

-- Love is the Law - Love under Will --

[kakkarot]

but do not ants have an ant queen, distant bell?  

as to logical debate: well to logically argue there is a God then you would have to change your thinking on how things come into existance. by the laws of the universe, nothing is created or destroyed. but how does a mere human know anything about the laws that govern a God? perhaps God created finite time and space for us and because that is the only thing we have ever known, that is all we can believe in. perhaps we are all just in one of those small "snow domes", cut off from infinity by finiteness created for us by someone else.    nothing illogical there, is there?

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[Paul]

Very interesting ideas here... has anyone read the Kybalion? Try http://bobert1.home.mindspring.com/kybalion.html --- it has a good philosophical description of the creator

But until you have come to be at one with God, we could never really be able to concieve how things are from God's point of view.

It is very interesting to see how my idea of God has evolved. From going to church at a young age, beliving God to be more king-like and human, to not beliving in anything, to re-discoverng the creative force in me, universal laws, and proving with that interaction my being part of greater being.

I prefer to think of God now more as the Tao, the Way things go, and from where they came.

[h2owong]

I have a few thoughts want to state.  But first of all, please excuse my bad English.

1.
Definition of god?  Everyone has his or her own god...
- One and the only one God? Or one of all gods?
- All mighty? Or just extremely powerful?
- The humanize God as in the Bible or non-humanize like Universe or Tao?
- God creates human being and this earth and this universe and all dimensions "ALONE" or these all create by different Gods.

2.
If you believe in god that show you a miracle, is that mean 'he' is the same god who create earth, universe and all dimension?  Put it the other way around, if you believe in god that create all dimension, does it mean that you have to believe that 'he' create human being also?

3.
If you receive a miracle.  Is that miracle give by the god you believe in or other god/entity just near by?

4.
Do we have to believe in the highest God, or just the god that will look after us.

5.
Do we believe in God or the person/book represent God.


Ok for me.  I don't believe in God, but I do believe there are gods.  I don't trust in "Science" neither.  Well, I believe science finding that look right but always left my eye open.

I think believe in Science is just like believe in God.  Science only gives explanation but not the Facts.  And never trust science explanation to something that is unknown or unseen.

I think there are two level of god we are talking about.  The first level is that god is an entity.  The second level of God is refer to law of physics, math, Tao, rules of cause&effect, universe itself.

I believe that the Christian god really exist.  But he isn't the only god exist.  Just the same to gods in all other cultures.  But it isn't matter, as long as the god you believe in can protect you.  I prefer to believe to small god that can help and not to God that doesn't even look at me.

Just by 2 cents

[Mobius]

Hi Guys

Some good points in there & interesting concepts, the multiple Gods concept is one that seemed to disapear from mankind as the centuries progressed. Many cultures around the world seemed to adopt this multiple Gods concept in ancient times e.g  ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs, Romans, Indians.

Why they all dissapeared off the scope over the centuries, really interests me. Gotta go, forgot about rehearsals, I'll continue when I get back.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Ashfo]

Perhaps my post came across wrong...

Mobius.. It's hard to explain my feelings on your comment.

You said
"If God came first, how did nothingness produce a multidimensional, omniscient being? Nature isn't like that, it does not start with producing omniscient beings, it starts simple. "

I was just pointing out that if God did come first, then obviously nature didnt start simple right? Becuase it created this huge omniscient being.

And if God didnt come first, then nature does start simple...


Anyhow, of course there isnt any irrefutable evidence for God... someone will always find an excuse for anything if they want to, but I'm interested in debating the Creation theory or some other hotly debated "God Evidence" theory.

I think I should also point out that I'm not an atheist - I believe there is probably something, someone or, well, something. I just like tossing backwards and forwards the arguments.

I do believe in Marian Apparitions btw, however I dont think these are necessarily evidence pointing towards Gods existence but rather points towards Thought manifestation - this thread here. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=1099

- Ashfo

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[kakkarot]

so ashfo (points accusingly) YOU DO BELIEVE IN A GOD! Nature (just kidding. lol) you said that nature created God and man (or at least implied it), so that means that, by your logic, nature is the "God" that created all and from whence all things come.    (just joking around there if you didn't figure it out)

but still, the people on this board believe in psionics, magick, pranic, reiki, kundalini, oobe's, the astral (and its various levels), and a TON (canadian tonne   ) of other things, and yet some scoff at the mere idea that there might be a god. i find that kinda funny. normal people can't even fathom the things we talk about on here, yet we can't even fathom a diety of complete power.  

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[cainam_nazier]

I just look at all of these things as the nexted step in human EVOLUTION.  A couple of more generations at will be common place.


David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

[Paul]

Doesn't nature imply the "nature" of god; ie, the laws that make up creation.

Laws such as cause & effect, duality & polarity, etc. In that case nature can work magic and miracles which are simply the Universal laws; and then there is the consciousness behind nature, which to some is God, and to other's is it's own being, Gaia.

God is then what came first, the "prime mover" - God is beyond all laws (because God put them into place to begin with) we can only "be at one with god", or be filled with the essence of God. Which is why some beings appear to us, to be God. But they are not.

The multiple gods, where, according to the other history, a group of beings called the Annukai who claimed leadership over Earth, and claimed to be "Gods" - but they where false gods.

[Mobius]

G,day Ashfo

What I am saying is, since there is no proof of any God/s now or ever in our human history or what came first God or nothingness, you can't say obviously it DOES start complex, as there is no facts to back that comment only speculation.

All I am saying is look at nature, on this planet for example what came first? A beautiful blue ball called earth suddenly comes into existence with the top of the food chain human predator popping in from nowhere, before all the other organisms that needed to be in place to support that entity?

So lets rewind a little to the creation or arrival of this singular God or multiple Gods on the scene. Would a omnipotent, omniscient, multidimensional being come into existence first?  Before any infastructure needed to support that entity? Or would things start off simple & over the eons of time produce different organisms or atoms  that interact with & benefit from anothers existence?

Us humans are not single cell organisms, so why would we come from just one God & for the past 2 thousand years it seems only males, it seems to contradict the laws of nature. It seems to me if you are going to believe in any God or Gods you would think there is a female aspect to it all. Don't get me wrong I believe there are beings out there of immense power, who's knowledge & abilities far surpass my understanding of their concepts, but just one God controlling the entire universe as it exists, simultaneously running everything & a male at that, sounds a bit suspect & smells of manipulation & provokes peoples fears of their mortality.

Ashfo on your link you said " Frank was saying thought is A primary energy"
& you believed "thought is THE primary energy". What was in place so that those thoughts could be in place to begin with? The thoughts had to have an original starting point. I understand the concept of thoughts manifesting something out of nothing, but you have to have something that started those thoughts, to perpetuate them, what creates the thought's?

Good journeys all

Mobius

[h2owong]

If there is a Ultimate Creator, he will not be the one we can reach.  The level between human and Ultimate Creator is to far away.

[Mobius]

I was reading an interesting article on one of the beliefs of Gnostics & how they believed a demonic entity whose main goal is to keep humans trapped in matter. As opposed to say the Christian faith of dying & being united with God in heaven. The "Archons" as called by the Gnostics (God & his agents) apparently feed on loosh or soul energy & return humans to the earth in an endless cycle or re-incarnation so that they can feed off our energy after the physical body dies. A slightly different version of our livestock methods e.g.  as far as the cows know, they are walking around in nice fields, eating nice things & the human comes & relieves the pain of a swollen udder & provides a treat.

It's the first time I heard that story before & havn't delved much into the Gnostic's beliefs & concepts, but that was a bizarre concept indeed. The article also implied that Monroe pinched a lot of his ideas from the Gnostic's or that he had experiences or beliefs as stated in "journeys out of the body" & " far journeys", that were strikingly similar to Gnostic's synopsis of the world view. I must get a hold of some Gnostic books & check it out for myself. The whole idea reminds me of the movie "Dark city" for some reason.

Good journeys all

Mobius