Goetia

[Nita]

Hello Amaroth
  Konstantinos has an interesting book. I still feel that any body who does any evocations should work upon themselves first. I do like the wheel he uses to make sigels by the name. Remember the difference for the Hebrew spelling.
  I also believe that he gives a good method using the mirror or crystal ball where you do not have to evoke them into this world. I do know that his methods are very reminiscent of the Initiation into Hermetics methods using magic mirrors.
  Arayan Knight if you would like to PEM me you and I can discuss philosophy and what we know. Other than that I do believe it is boring to everyone else of any religion to get into discussing different things unless it is on the religion forum.
  Nita

[Gandalf]

Some of the replies I have read come across as judeo-christian fantasy imo, Well, as I said in an earlier post, i dont believe all the soloman mumbo jumbo attatched to the goetia but if you feel that it adds to the mystery then fine, but I see no reason to suppose the goetic manuals are any earlier than the 15th century (with the Lessor key dating to the 17th!), no matter what the unknown author may claim.

I also believe that all the 72 'demons/angels' are in fact pagan gods, most of their names have been corrupted over time, ie 'Astaroth' = Ishtar.

Therefor I dont divide them up into 'good' or 'evil', and I dont view them as demons in the christian sense. The christian church from an early stage rebranded all the pagan gods as 'demons'.
So pretty much every 'demon' you have ever heard of is in fact a pagan god , once worshipped by people around the world or invarious region (including 'Lucifer', a minor roman deity of little account before his christian 'makeover'.).

The judeo-christian mumbo jumbo surounding the goetia means that you percieve all these deities through the judeo-christian lens which distorts them imo; again if it works for you then fine, but many other people like to strip away all the crud and get on with the mechanics of invoking the deities themselves.

I am still unsure as to whether the deities have any independent reality and are sentient in some way or if they are projections of your own subconcsious, although I lean towards the later interpretation.
It doesnt really matter at the end of the day since the resulting effect is the same as far as the magician is concerned.

Doug

[LordoftheBunnies]

Hi Nita, sorry it took me awhile to reply.

I've read through both IIH and the Kybalion, and started doing some of the exercises a bit.  The thing is, at the moment I'm not entirely sure how to go about with my magic practice.  At first I was just trying to astral project, then I started doing Golden Dawn rituals, then I got IIH, and then a book on Tattwa cards.  I'm not certain how to organize everything.  Although so far IIH seems like the best bet, for some reason I don't want to stop doing the GD rituals.  I still want to astral project as well.  Could some of the GD rituals act as a supplement to Franz Bardon's system, or are there elements of the two that would tend to interfere with each other? Should I just do everything together whenever I can find the time?

[aryanknight666]

Some of the replies I have read come across as judeo-christian fantasy imo, Well, as I said in an earlier post, i dont believe all the soloman mumbo jumbo attatched to the goetia but if you feel that it adds to the mystery then fine, but I see no reason to suppose the goetic manuals are any earlier than the 15th century (with the Lessor key dating to the 17th!), no matter what the unknown author may claim.

I also believe that all the 72 'demons/angels' are in fact pagan gods, most of their names have been corrupted over time, ie 'Astaroth' = Ishtar.

Therefor I dont divide them up into 'good' or 'evil', and I dont view them as demons in the christian sense. The christian church from an early stage rebranded all the pagan gods as 'demons'.
So pretty much every 'demon' you have ever heard of is in fact a pagan god , once worshipped by people around the world or invarious region (including 'Lucifer', a minor roman deity of little account before his christian 'makeover'.).

The judeo-christian mumbo jumbo surounding the goetia means that you percieve all these deities through the judeo-christian lens which distorts them imo; again if it works for you then fine, but many other people like to strip away all the crud and get on with the mechanics of invoking the deities themselves.

I am still unsure as to whether the deities have any independent reality and are sentient in some way or if they are projections of your own subconcsious, although I lean towards the later interpretation.
It doesnt really matter at the end of the day since the resulting effect is the same as far as the magician is concerned.

Doug

I pretty much 100% agree with you. But the word 'lucifer' is latin I think for light bearer, bearer of light, morning star. It was attritubeted as a descriptive name to the hebrew angel Sammael who did lead a war and rebellion against god and was cast out of heaven. Sammael was described as the morning star or bearer of light in hebrew, or something to that effect, which is why he was given the name 'lucifer' in latin, and I don't think that it was taking the name of the minor roman God of light or a demonisation of him.
About solomon, I personally cannot say whether he definatley existed or definatley didn't, but the Gods were definatley bound under a curse of some sort but have now been freed by energy workings. That the judeao-christian fantasy of 'Demons' is merely a result of demonizing pagan gods is true, but I don't beleive this was simply limited to people, I do think that the angels and jehovah-whatever he may be, exist. And I think that the goetic Demons or Gods rather exist as well and angels/jehovah are their enemy. And, I also beleive that lucifer/satan exists as well, and I think that it is very likely he was a pagan God as well, ptah of egypt or enki of sumeria, and that he and the 'Demons' were the true and original Gods of humanity and the 'jehovah' and the angels are the enemy. And I do not think that jesus exists or existed.

[Gandalf]

Interesting reply AryanKnight.. i suppose its up to everyone to come up with their own interpretation at the end of the day.
I'm sure I remember reading that Aliester crowley believed the goetic deities to be projcetions of the unconscious mind (but still powerful and dangerous of course), but then again they may be real.

Good point about Lucifer... I guess there are two Lucifer's actually. There is the Roman deity Lucifer, the one I described, who was a very minor Roman deity of the Morning Star, hense his name 'Light bearer'; Venus in her morning aspect. He is mentioned in Ovid for example.

Then there is the middle-eastern being you speak of and as he had similar attributes to the Roman deity, it wasnt long before Latin speakers were using the name 'Lucifer' to describe this other being; over time the old roman deity was forgotten. I still feel sorry for the roman deity however, as really he had nothing to do with this other being.

Doug

[aryanknight666]

Aliesiter Crowley can beleive what he wants to beleive. But so can everyone else, and he's not forcing his beleifs down other people's throats, and thus others shouldn't just swallow everything he says. People should decide what the goetic entites are based off their own experiences and the experiences of me and many others tell us they are independant, individual beings seperate from our own minds and extremely powerful, intelligent and ancient. If they are projections of our unconscious mind, then our unconscious minds must be very powerful since someone can burst into flames from a Demon being around if there is enough energy and they are not strong enough.

[SpectralDragon]

Aliesiter Crowley can beleive what he wants to beleive. But so can everyone else, and he's not forcing his beleifs down other people's throats, and thus others shouldn't just swallow everything he says. People should decide what the goetic entites are based off their own experiences and the experiences of me and many others tell us they are independant, individual beings seperate from our own minds and extremely powerful, intelligent and ancient. If they are projections of our unconscious mind, then our unconscious minds must be very powerful since someone can burst into flames from a Demon being around if there is enough energy and they are not strong enough.

*nods* Yes based on my experience Goetic Entities are not your average "demons." (Originally they were not considered demons.) They are not necissarily evil with the exception of a couple of them.

Some demons, however, are indeed atmospheric presences with no definite body. I have seen this in the astral before when dealing and helping individuals. This usually means, I found, that they are either our own fears, the fears of collective humanity, or something greater still.

[Nita]

Hello Lord of the Bunnies
  I would suggest still doing GD rituals if you feel they are working for you. You then do the exercises in IIH. I believe in diversity as it keeps you grounded when you find the things that work for you.
  It means that you have fewer problems than anyone will that just follows only one method. The important thing to remember is that you can add extra but do not change the basic things you are supposed to do. It is where most beginners get in trouble.
  Now on goetic demons a lot of them do have names that were the names of pagan Gods. Using the sigels in a book defines those demons energy signature. It means they appear in a specific fashion and quality. It means that no matter what other names they are known by if you use the sigel and name from a specific book they appear in the manner they appeared when the person had them put their sigel they would answer to down.
  If you want them different then you should use the more positive name and symbols. It does not mean they are harmless. I read a statement once that I believe is very true. Once the Gods and angels notice you do not expect everything to be perfect. It is speeding up your lessons and things you do because they expect more of you. Demons do the same things when they notice you and none of their lessons are normally good.
          Nita