Pojecting my will onto others...

[Ekron]

I would think thrice before attempting to effect the will of others:
1) why you wish to influence,
2) to want end,
3) and how.
For anything you do by magic will resonate throughout the universe eventually reflecting back on you.

We all have the right to freedom of choice and to be free to make those choices without the influence of others. Advise someone who seeks guidence by all means but ulimately they must take resposibility for their actions as must you.

Many years ago I was asked by a close friend if I would perform a ritual that would seperate an affair his father was having with another woman. This I did and the couple seperated in a short space of time. I know deeply regret performing such an act which acted upon the karma of these two people even though it seemed for a good cause.

Use magic as a path to enlightenment and you will be enlightened. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you.
Everything you need is out there you only have to look but no one said it would be easy. I wish you well.

[kakkarot]

'tis indeed a large consequence, to try to manipulate another person's will either without them knowing it or blatantly against their will. usually, it's better to talk to them, and then let them make their own decisions, as they are permitted to do with their lives.

it can be hard at times to watch them make what you percieve as mistakes, but it is their life.

~kakkarot

[TheLuns]

perhaps i am willing to accept the consiquences...

and as for the information being out there... i have about 2 books sitting on my hard drive from authors older than the hills, who is an auther that writes understandable information that i can go aquire.

when i move to baltimore i consider seeking out a GD lodge but it seems to me like any orginization seeking to improve mankind, for a price, dosn't soudn that enlightend

[kakkarot]

can you feel the energy? the magic?

~kakkarot

[TheLuns]

...  what do you mean by feel the magic?

i think im starting to feel energy... ill notice my hands will tingle over sertan things and in the air occasonaly... when i focus on em, and i do the NEW stuff...

but feel the magic?

[Nay]

I could be so off, but doesn't the other person have to know what you are up to?

I mean...if you put some kind of spell on me, for it to work, do I not need to know that you did it?  Maybe that is why Kakkarot said you should speak to them first...to put that little seed in the mind.

Nay.[]

[Fenris]

Hi TheLuns

Yes it is probably true that you have obtained VERY little understanding relative to what you have already read, I'll offer you some constructive criticism.

Firstly how do you see a difference between "make people do what i want" and "make them more willing to agree with me"?  Irrespective of how you choose to word it, you are discussing the use of 'magic' to alter another person's lived experience outside of their knowledge and control. You also say within stating your goals that you are 'not evil', when what you are is very confused about what is right and wrong, and ignorant of your ability to make an apt decision regarding either. You see your ideas of right and wrong have merely been shaped by your experiences during your short life, just like the rest of us. What makes you think that your moral ideas that have developed are adequate to justify you in controlling another person's life for reasons YOU see as being correct? You state that you are a "servant of good" and have loving values, but there are many conflicting statements within your post. To say it simply, no person truly understands what is right or wrong well enough to justifiably take away a persons freedom of choice, this is not merely a moral statement but one reinforced by the observations of nature and the effects of karma.

So many people studying magic are destroyed by their egos, and here you are kicking off with purely ego driven goals. If you seriously want to study magic then perhaps consider that 'magic' is just the manipulation of energy using the natural abilities of man kind, it is a very normal thing. But by grasping an understanding of magic and using it to gain a greater connection to the cycles of nature, and or to gain connection to higher energies and evolve ourselves as beings it is a useful tool in becoming well balanced mentally refined people. If you use magic to further the wants of your ego such as status, respect and control you will eventually learn to get these things, but be a miserable failure of a being when things run full course.

Regarding what you can study that you will understand, books on the internet like you mentioned you have on hard drive are generally very old classic texts so obviously the language will be a little harder to grasp, go to any decent book store and start off with a book that appeals to you in the metaphysical section, there are thousands of books on the topic. If you research what area of magic interests you, for example ceremonial magic or Wicca, I'm sure some of us could recommend some great books to you.

Regarding the charging of money for magical training by lodges, peoples time is worth money because training you is work, and in our culture you work for money to buy goods to survive, materials to teach you cost money, and the training you are receiving is definitely of value. Even when learning spiritualism we still live in a world working on materialism []

Kind regards
David.

[TheLuns]

I think i have my ego undercontrol, in that i try to not have one, but i am aware of myself and i do have my wants, and some of them i would like fullfiled.

by bringing people to my side of the argument, i can help myself and i honesty believe i can help others with my aid, on the outside, and in extream cases from the inside out

In the mean time i devote much of my life to study, and to social interaction. I am a good speaker, but some people are stubborn and or seriously damaged in there mind, i am currendy studying phychology amung other classes to help make the world abetter place one person at a time, and i new a practice to make things happen the way i want them to, i think i could further help the people i cross.

If karma dictates that helping people against there will is wrong, than i will accept the responcibilty.  in my understanding of god (higher power/s what have you) he smiles upon charity and good works, and dosn't have a problem with people getting things for there own here and there.

It looks like no one is willing to give me the information i seek, without knowing my true character i understand. I would be very gracious if some one would be willing to instruct me on perhaps just some basics, as so that i can lean to understand 'the way of things' on my own. a pm or an im would suffice, but a post on here so everone may benifit would be appreciated to, thank you

[Fenris]

Hi TheLuns

Please understand that it is the nature of the forums here that the majority of the people reading this are probably against the notion of it being ok to control other people, take the psychic self defense forum for example. What you are asking for instruction on is too many of us considered a psychic attack. It would be irresponsible to discuss, well in my opinion anyway.

Bringing people to your side in WHAT argument? While I accept that you may indeed be sincere in your wanting to help others, I challenge you that the key to aiding individuals with mental health problems is not controlling their minds and creating a false acceptance of your suggestion. Rather it is more working with conventional therapeutic communication technique, active listening in conjunction with therapeutic methods. And even exploring other therapeutic methods considered 'alternative' by the medical model. The main point is you help the individual relearn and prompt them to look at things differently, you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, you teach a man to fish you feed him for life. Keep studying.

Regards, David

[Hephaestus]

Controling people and/or effecting their freewill is one of the greatest powers a person can posess, one which i'm trying to master myself. []
Imagine the power I could wield if I could make president Bush do what I want. [}:)] []

[kakkarot]

actually nay, when i mentioned "talking to the person" i meant doing alone, no magic involved. because honestly, it helps you understand them as well as them understanding you, whereas magic just brings them over to your "side" regardless of whether they even understand your side.

talking is an incredibly powerful tool if used correctly, if you ask the right questions and *listen* to their answers. and then thinking about their answers and understanding a situation from *someone else's* point of view. as well, asking the right questions that get the other person to think rather than just answer is more useful than magic will ever be in those situations [].

communication is about not just the self, but about others as well. forcing people to do what you want is merely about the self.

which as fenris pointed out, can destroy your self. selfishness whether by attitude, behavior, or intent are all destructive to one's self and should be something to dispose of if you want to help others or if you want to advance spiritually.

(actually, i've been thinking recently about certain steps in spiritual advancement and i'm fairly certain that the first step in most cases should be ridding oneself of a self-centered view of the universe, and start seeing this world from other people's perspectives rather than one's own. doing such allows a lead into a number of other spiritual advancements, but because of that there would then be many paths that could be taken from there, which would really hamper trying to write an "article" about it :/ . sorry for getting off topic here, TheLuns [|)])

~kakkarot

[Fenris]

Maybe we should talk about altering how others perceive us! A true art in itself and you get to keep all your teeth.

I agree Kakkarot, of all the diverse paths that ascend the proverbial mountain of shinny enlightened goodness rising above egotism is always present as a challenge, and also developing a clearer communication between the unconscious and conscious minds. Everything is the same. God so far to go and so much to learn! On a slightly different topic I have started keeping a dream diary again, it's so interesting how it makes remembering all of your dreams so much easier after about two weeks, a definite bridge between the minds is formed when your brain learns you want one. Still doing any martial arts these days?

Regards
David

[TheLuns]

you guys went about way off topic, but intresting none the less... when im not... pressed for time...  i will write my thoughts on the above

[rhinegirl]

quote:Originally posted by Fenris

Hi TheLuns

Please understand that it is the nature of the forums here that the majority of the people reading this are probably against the notion of it being ok to control other people, take the psychic self defense forum for example. What you are asking for instruction on is too many of us considered a psychic attack. It would be irresponsible to discuss, well in my opinion anyway.

I see others controlled all the time by propaganda, media, govt, beaucracy, etc. So what makes controlling someon ethrough magic wrong. If you knew someone wqas going to do something evil and magic was your only defense then why wouldn't you use it?

The way I see it is thatlife on this planet is all about dominance/submission. Thus if someone is attempting to dominate you then you have an obligation to yourself to control THEM and thus defeat them with any means possible.

Jessica

[Nagual]

quote:I think i have my ego undercontrol, in that i try to not have one, but i am aware of myself and i do have my wants, and some of them i would like fullfiled.

You think that.... you try to...  It really looks like you are ready!  [|)]  Trying not to have an ego is not controlling your ego.  Controlling something you don't have anymore is a weird concept.

quote:by bringing people to my side of the argument, i can help myself and i honesty believe i can help others with my aid

Who are you to pretend to be able to "help" people better than they could...?  Do you think that you'd do a better job at helping me than I would???  What is so great about you?  What makes you superior to other people?

quote:I am a good speaker, but some people are stubborn and or seriously damaged in there mind

Which means, if they disagree with you, they must be wrong because you are always right...  Is that what you mean?

quote:If karma dictates that helping people against there will is wrong, than i will accept the responcibilty.

What about if I want to do the same thing; I will help you, even if you don't want to.  Because you really need help from what I can read.  And I accept the responsability too...  []

[TheLuns]

but how do you know who is really controling who? are 'they' controling you by making everyhing around you aranged so that you have thus thoughts? or are you in more control than you relize and it all is a direct result of how you precive it?

don't mind me im just tripping

[rhinegirl]

quote:Originally posted by TheLuns

but how do you know who is really controling who? are 'they' controling you by making everyhing around you aranged so that you have thus thoughts? or are you in more control than you relize and it all is a direct result of how you precive it?

don't mind me im just tripping

Valid questions.

Jessica

[Fenris]

Hi rhinegirl

Great argument! I hope this turns into a good ol fashioned productive astral pulse debate! I won't pretend for a moment that I am morally or ethically perfect, but here is my response.

Personally if magic were my ONLY defense against someone trying to harm me, someone I love or people I feel morally obliged to protect, I would try my best to 'use magic' to defeat said foe. But if I could smash their skull open with a rock I'd do that first.

Everyone has a right to defend themselves; nobody has the right to control others against their will – unless their will is to control you hehe [] In a nut shell – Consider this metaphor, our actions are like a stone cast in a pond, and the ripples created are reactions to our action, eventually the ripples reach the walls of the pond and the energy wave starts to travel back again toward its source. Magic is throwing a really big stone making really big ripples, and the size of the ripple returning to you – the source, will be bigger too, and the energy of the same quality first sent out by the stone you cast.

The quote you used from my post was used in the context of responding to a person thinking they can control others to alter them to make them fit his conception of a better person. I see a line existing somewhere between changing others using magic because you think you have the right to 'help them', and using magic to protect life and limb.  

I agree that we seem to live in a world of dominance and submission, but if you held in your hand a tool that could be used to help you as an individual rise above the dirt of society would you use it to do that? Or just make you and society worse off? You COULD be a damaging-self-concept ego freak and use magic to control others and satisfy you animalistic desires of being head Alpha chimpanzee, OR you could use it to make you a better person with a will so strong that others desires to control you are totally irrelevant, because you carve your own path without the need to trample on others.

But I'm sure there is someone around here who could give a much better, wiser answer then the above...hey maybe even me when its not 2am []  

Kind Regards,
David

P.S TheLuns, sorry getting off track is something Kakkarot and I seem to just kind of do []

[Deva]

I don't know about projecting one's will onto others using magic but the practice of obe methods seems to give one the advantage in the RTZ.  IMO, I think the recepient becomes more receptive to a practicing ober's telepathy.  This is not to force in any way the recipient to give the practicing ober what they want but to be more aware of their desire.  The decision is still in the hands of the recipient receiving the telepathic thought.  Since there is no intentional manipulation of the recipient's thoughts per se, there would be no karmic consequences.

[Ultraveil]

Hi TheLuns,

I've studied and practiced Magick for some time now and I'm yet to hear a clap of thunder and see a big blue flash. I'll try and describe a way in which you can perceive magick. Let us assume that you want to control someone's thoughts using magick. You'll need magickal tools, a spell, and you'll have to invoke some spirits as well as carry out a bit of ceremony. Or to put it another way -
Get your magickal tools (pen and paper!), prepare your spell (write a letter to them!), invoke some spirits (give the letter to the postman)and carry out a bit of ceremony (walk to the postbox!) Magick manifests in much more understood ways than people espect it to. You can change the way someone thinks by writing a letter to them. Is writing a letter an act of magick? yes it is. Hope this helps.

[rhinegirl]

May I suggest also, books on NLP, human psychology and behavior, and books on propaganda techniques.

Hitler would never had come to power had he not stirred the peoples emotions.

Jessica

quote:Originally posted by Ultraveil

Hi TheLuns,
Let us assume that you want to control someone's thoughts using magick. You'll need magickal tools, a spell, and you'll have to invoke some spirits as well as carry out a bit of ceremony. Or to put it another way -
Get your magickal tools (pen and paper!), prepare your spell (write a letter to them!), invoke some spirits (give the letter to the postman)and carry out a bit of ceremony (walk to the postbox!) Magick manifests in much more understood ways than people espect it to. You can change the way someone thinks by writing a letter to them. Is writing a letter an act of magick? yes it is. Hope this helps.

[TheLuns]

Actually, i just got done doing my homework for psychology, and yes, i have read about hitlers mind control techniques... A good book on the subject of mind control is 'The Battle For Your Mind' (the author escapes me) and yes, i do have a healthy relationship skill and i have talked to several of the people in question, on numerous occasion, and manny times my words have done plenty to help them, or help them help themselves. I think many of you believe i seek to accomplish tasks that could easly be done with other methods. Believe me, to the best of my abilities i have failed in all other mediums. I come to you, this speritual comunity in hopes that you may possess another tool to perform great works. For your consideration, lets look at three of my subjects.

1. One is a young girl, whom i love dearly. this girl has some serious self esteem problems, i believe that stem from her abuseive family life, her mother, a raving alchoholic, and her father, an abuisive crackhead (fortunatly no longer living with them), her younger sister, wracked with several mental ailments of her own, and an older sister that has left.    She has taken the role and responcabiltiy of the mother of the family (at only 15). on top of this she has been addicted to cocain and x, and has been rapped twice and gone through a period of overt promiscuity. Needless to say she has issues that i constantly try to help her with. our relationship is only friendship, but i do love the child and pity her greatly. (for those that would say give up on her, you never truly loved some one)

2. Then there are my two old best friends. Thies guys, very dear to me as well, do battle with the worst of all 'NEGS', cocaine addiction. both dealers of various substances, they constantly go in and out of deep submission to that horrible substance that can sap souls and crush dreams. I have often supported them in there clean periods and i constantly reach out to them in there times of deep addiction

Both parties the only option other than self help would be commition into aid facilities. for the girl, she won't accept that, and for the guys, it would result in jailtime, somthing i have experience and would wish on no man. you see my delema here... aside from major profecinall help that would damage there position in life there only hope is self actuilation and i dearly try to help them achive this. if magic can suceed where my words and actions have failed, then it is my duty to do it, not my Ego.

[Nagual]

I just hope that your self-proclaimed duty to control others minds against their will will end up with a positive result...  And I hope you are as good as you pretend to be.

If you don't see any difference between helping someone and controlling someone, that's pretty scary.  Anyway, don't even think about controlling me for my own good, thx.  I will take care of myself.

You are just removing the only real freedom people still have; freedom of choice; freedom to choose their own fate/path/life.

It's a bit like euthanasia.  If I decide to end my life because of unbearable sickness/pain/etc...  I have the right to!  I don't want any #%$#ing doctor/politician/self-proclaimed genius to tell me I am not alowed to.

[Ekron]

There is only so much you can do to help your friends, ultimately they will have to help themselves. However you can go a long way in helping them. ONE way is by calling upon the help of spirits to strengthen your friends resolve and miracles do happen, they may even be freed of their problems. God moves in mysterious ways.

Work with books like "Summoning Spirits" by Konstantinos. This is a very understandable and clearly constructed guide. For a more detailed background on the art of evocation look to "The Practice of Magical Evocation" by Franz Bardon. This can be a bit dry and heavy going but it's very detailed. Both books list various spirits and their attributes. Even some of the old grimoires have useful information that can aid you.

Once you locate the spirit which has the attributes most likely able to help you, you can use prayer in the first instance (we often underestimate the POWER of prayer) before attempting skrying on the astral plane and ultimately physical evocation.

Draw the spirits sigil on clean white paper using an ink colour attributed to the spirits sphere. Meditate on this sigil and call the spirit to prayer asking its help and guidance for your friends. The more you associate yourself and your surroundings with this spirit the more powerful will be your prayer. Try and find as much about the aspects of the spirit as you can, its sphere of origin (Sephira, planet, element). What is its attributes, metal, incense, herb, colour, gem stone, etc. Gather as many of these items as you can around you and try and illuminate your place of prayer with the colour of the sphere of the spirit. Don't worry too much if you cannot achieve all of this what really matters is your belief and sincerity in what you are doing and a WILLingness to succeed.

If you find you need a stronger link with your chosen spirit (likely with lesser spirits) you will need to summon them by skrying or physical evocation. The two books I mentioned explain this in detail, but take heed this can be a long and arduous task.

You can make the spirits sigil into a talisman which you may wish to pass onto your friend for them to keep. Do inform them what this is for and what you hope to achieve by it. The talisman can be made more permenant by engraving the sigil onto the associated metal. If creating a talisman out of a sigil enclose it in two circles and inbetween these circles various names of God and/or the names of the spirits superiors may be written if you so wish.

As I said to you before "seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened unto you". If you believe and are sincere in what you are doing your WILL, will succeed.

Use this for postive ends and you will receive positive results, use it for negative ends and you will receive negative results.

A word to the wise is enough.

[Adept_of_Light]

Dear TheLuns,

Your wanting to help your three friends out of their difficult lives are well intentioned desires, but if you are barely a beginner in magical arts, it may be a while before you will really be able to help them in this way to any recognizable extent.

The power of magic is endless (after all Christ resurrected the dead!), but the power of magic is also derived from the magician, or more correctly stated, can only manifest in proportion to the development of the magician. A well developed magician is far more than one who has read endless books on magic and has climbed to the rank of philosopher or theologian. Inner development requires work which for most takes years of practice and even lifetimes (depending on what level we are talking about).

With this in mind, I would propose at this time that you seek worldly solutions to your friend's worldly problems. It will no doubt be imperative you not lose hope and remain optimist toward their recovery, but also keep in mind that severe problems require much time (in these cases I would suggest many years) before you can expect recovery to any "normal" level of sanity. Help as much as you can and feel you would like to, but whatever you do, do not lose yourself in their worlds.

Getting back to magic and entering other's minds, Franz Bardon's book Initiation into Hermetics in step 4 explains how this can be accomplished, but again this is not work for beginners. Unless you have some natural born talent, it could take months, more realistically a few years before you reach this step if you practice the exercises daily for 2 hours+ a day.

In the same way that it may take you 8+ years to become a surgeon before you could in theory help a friend with a brain tumour by doing surgery on their brains, you could seek somebody who already has such abilities (one who is a brain surgeon) and get them to see if they would be willing to help. In other words, if you can't become a magician in time to help, find a magician that can help today. But to be honest, more modern and simpler approaches to their problems would yield good results without you searching a while to find such a person, (if you could even find one that would be willing and capable of helping). Also, using such high levels of magic in comparison to more easily accessesable means in our western world, would be like trying to find somebody who has mastered telekinesis so that they could lift the pencil on your desk 1 foot up in the air. Wouldn't it be far easier to just lift it up with your hand? So once more... for worldly problems, use worldly solutions.

Now for a more broad philosophical outlook at your friend's lives. Yes they are suffering, but suffering also allows for lessons to be learned. In fact, I would argue sometimes that's the quickest way to learn a lesson. Put your finger in the fire, if it burns you, you will not be doing that again so quickly. The spirit does learn lessons between life-times. Their spirits will learn some lessons in this life, regardless of the outcome or how much suffering is endured. Remember, in the broader perspective there are no failures, only experiences. Death is not failure, it is the passage onto a new life, onto new opportunities. Their suffering is mostly the result of their own actions or past actions, and the misconception of the attachment to their own Egos and physical bodies.
Of course to overcome such "illusions", you'd need to already be quite the advanced spiritual person, from which these people appear to be *at the very least* 1 life-time away from, one could just as easily argue hundreds.

From a psychological perspective, you need to realize that these people can not be helped by you. At best, they can be influenced by you to help themselves. Getting off cocaine addictions and healing psychologically from being rapped is hardly something you can help with directly at this point in time. With some medium level magic (as per Step4 above) you could implant thoughts in their minds for them to want to help themselves, or to create negative mental associations between their addictions/problems such that they would move in the opposite direction toward a healthier life, but such positive manipulations may actually not be helping them. The only way to know for sure is to consult with your higher self which is always 100% right. To do this you'd need contact with it which is achieved around the same step in that book. If your higher-self says that it is *not* ok to help them and you do, you could actually be inflicting negative karma into your own spirit and/or theirs and prolonging the number of reincarnations they must endure, which in essence translates to more suffering in this or future lives.

quote:
in conclusion my requests are
1. if some one could teach me an effective process for bringing others under my control (horrible way to put it but basically...)
and 2. if some one could point me in a proper direction of education (that doesn't involve me reading 100 books that i hardly understand... take Crowley... i can understand him when he writes scientifically, but the other stuff...)

The aforementioned book and *LOTS* of practice is all you will need. No need for 100 books, only the right 1 book. That book however as I've mentioned before is not for everybody, read some of my previous posts to get a better understanding of who that book is for.

I think in the immediate present, you can help them by being their friend, giving them your example, seeking resources to help them once they are ready to be helped (e.g. doctors, counsellors, psychologists, anti-drug groups, rape therapy groups etc, I'm sure you can think of other ones).

Take good care and best of luck,
Adept of Light

PS. The love you feel for the 15 year old girl is not necessarily just love. Depending on how much effort, time and sacrifice you put into trying to help her in her life, it could actually be a form of escapism from your own personal issues that need to be resolved in your life (no matter if they are just as heavy or far simpler than hers).  I could go on for many paragraphs about this subject alone and the various misinterpretations of this type of love, but this is not the place nor necessarily the time for such discussions. This is not to say you don't truly feel some love for her, I'm just suggesting that there could potentially be more to it than just this.