The Astral Pulse

Quote from: FrankIn the olden days, you had the astral that was said to be set out as 7 planes divided by 7 sub planes, blah, blah, blah, all with ubiquitous funny-sounding names that no one really knows the meaning of. This was their model of consciousness as existed in those days. A model that was filed alongside the one about the world being flat, and the sun revolving around the earth.

I have never hear of such stuff from any spiritual teachings.  I think a person would have to look really hard to find a fake source such as what you perhaps found.

Here is a classical example from mystical teachings.  As you can see, it is far more detailed than you thought and is not some blah, blah, blah talk on one astral place.  The astral is but one realm.  I may sound very stern because the energy you are bringing forth is very karmic in nature as it affects a great deal of people.  Please be careful when dealing with a lot of people that listen to your words.  We reap what we sew-- the law of cause and effect, karma.

Translations:
Desire world = Astral world
Vital body = Etheric body
Ego = Higher & Divine Self


Please see an image of the 7 Cosmic Planes.  Note that the 7th Cosmic Plane is the lowest in vibration.  Also note that as high as our Higher & Divine Self are, even it only extends to the lowest (the 7th) Cosmic Plane.  Within the 7th Cosmic Plane are 7 worlds.  Note that the Astral (called the Desire) is nearly at the bottom in the 7th Cosmic Plane.  A great deal of these worlds have been mapped and divided by people such as Max Heindel that have the ability to see correctly without creating self illusion while out of body.
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A more detailed image of just the 7th Cosmic Plane.  Here you will see a detailed description of each world.  Further on in this post you will see further details.
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Note that the Personality is composed of the Physical (Material & Etheric) and Astral.  The Ego (Higher & Divine Self) is composed of the Human Spirit, Life Spirit, and Divine Spirit.  The Mind is the link between both Personality and Spirit.


Even more detail this diagram shows 9 aspects of a being and the mind as the link or focus.  The 9 aspects are divided into 3 aspects—Spirit, Soul, and Body.
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Please see the image of the "The Vehicles of the Four Kingdoms"
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As you can see, the Physical plane / world has been mapped and divided into two main regions, the Dense body on the Material plane and the Vital / Etheric body in the Vital / Etheric plane.
The Etheric plane has 4 regions:
1. Chemical Ether
2. Life Ether
3. Light Ether
4. Reflecting Ether

Now those aren't "ubiquitous funny-sounding names." ;-)

Furthermore, the diagram shows a detailed mapping where each kingdom is at in development.  For example, the average human kingdom on earth extends is in the process of linking to the higher self, which is known as the Human Ego in RFC terminology.  The other three kingdoms have no such link in development yet, but have a group spirit consciousness in place of the higher self.


Here's a diagram that details the relative permanency of the visible and invisible worlds.  Here you can see that the mind (nothing to do with the physical brain) is the link, the center of our being.  You can also see how each realm is a reflection in another specific realm.
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A detailed diagram of the average Human Life Cycle between incarnations.
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The diagram of the evolution of the kingdoms.  It shows a planet that was created before planet Earth that went as low as the Etheric planes.  That planet was during the Moon period where the Angelic Kingdom incarnated.  The Etheric plane was the lowest plane that the Angelic kingdom incarnated on.  That was their physical plane.  And countless years before that planet was created was the Sun period.  This was when the Archangels were at our level of spiritual development and went as low as the Astral world.  Before the Archangels were the Lords of Mind.  Before that were the Lords of Form.  Before that were the Lords of Individuality.  Before that were the Lords of Wisdom.  Before that were the Lords of Flame.  Before that were the Cherubim.  Before that were the Seraphim.  Before that were the nameless ones.  Before that were another group of nameless ones.
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Chemical Ether:
This ether is both positive and negative in manifestation. The forces which cause assimilation and excretion work through it. Assimilation is the process whereby the different nutritive elements of food are incorporated into the body of plant, animal and man. This is carried on by forces with which we shall become acquainted later. They work along the positive pole of the chemical ether and attract the needed elements, building them into the forms concerned. These forces do not act blindly nor mechanically, but in a selective way (well-known to scientists by its effects) thereby accomplishing their purpose, which is the growth and maintenance of the body.
  Excretion is carried on by forces of the same kind, but working along the negative pole of the chemical ether. By means of this pole they expel from the body the materials in the food which are unfit for use, or those which have outlived their usefulness in the body and should be expurgated from the system. This, like all other processes independent of man's volition, is also wide, selective, and not merely mechanical in its operation, as seen, for instance, in the case of the action of the kidneys, where only the urine is filtered through when the organs are in health; but it is known that when the organs are not in health, the valuable albumen is allowed to escape with the urine, the proper selection not being made because of an abnormal condition.
 
Life Ether:
As the chemical ether is the avenue for the operation of the forces the object of which is the maintenance of the individual form, so the life ether is the avenue for the operation of the forces which have for their object the maintenance of the species--the forces of propagation.
  Like the chemical ether, the life ether also has its positive and negative pole. The forces which work along the positive pole are those which work in the female during gestation. They enable her to do the positive, active work of bringing forth a new being. On the other hand the forces which work along the negative pole of the life ether enable the male to produce semen.
  In the work on the impregnated ovum of the animal and man, or upon the seed of the plant, the forces working along the positive pole of the life ether produce male plants, animals and men; while the forces which express themselves through the negative pole generate females.
 
Light Ether:
This ether is both positive and negative, and the forces which play along its positive pole are the forces which generate that blood heat in the higher species of animal and in man, which makes them individual sources of heat. The forces which work along the negative pole of the light ether are those which operate through the senses, manifesting as the passive functions of sight, hearing, feeling, tasting, and smelling. They also build and nourish the eye.
  In the cold-blooded animals the positive pole of the light ether is the avenue of the forces which circulate the blood, and the negative forces have the same functions in regard to the eye as in the case of the higher animals and man. Where eyes are lacking, the forces working in the negative pole of the light ether are perhaps building or nourishing other sense organs, as they do in all that have sense organs.
  In plants the forces which work along the positive pole of the light ether cause the circulation of the juices of the plant. Thus in winter, when the light ether is not charged with sunlight as in summer, the sap ceases to flow until the summer sun again invests the light ether with its force. The forces which work along the negative pole of the light ether deposit the chlorophyll, the green substance of the plant and also color the flowers. In fact, all color, in all kingdoms is deposited by means of the negative pole of the light ether. Therefore animals have the deepest color on the back and flowers are deepest colored on the side turned towards the light. In the polar regions of the earth, where the rays of the sun are weak, all color is lighter and in some cases is so sparingly deposited that in winter it is withdrawn altogether and the animals become white.
 
Reflecting Ether:
It has heretofore been stated that the idea of the house which has existed in the mind can be recovered from the memory of nature, even after the death of the architect. Everything that has ever happened has left behind it an ineffaceable picture in this reflecting ether. As the giant ferns of the childhood of the Earth have left their pictures in the coal beds, and as the progress of the glacier of a bygone day may be traced by means of the trail it has left upon the rocks along its path, even so are the thoughts and acts of men ineffaceably recorded by nature in this reflecting ether, where the trained seer may read their story with an accuracy commensurate with his ability.
  The reflecting ether deserves its name for more than one reason, for the pictures in it are but reflections of the memory of nature. The real memory of nature is found in a much higher realm. In this reflecting ether no thoroughly trained clairvoyant cares to read, as the pictures are blurred and vague compared to those found in the higher realm. Those who read in the reflecting ether are generally those who have no choice, who, in fact, do not know what they are reading. As a rule ordinary psychometrists and mediums obtain their knowledge through the reflecting ether. To some slight extent the pupil of the occult school in the first stages of his training also reads in the reflecting ether, but he is warned by his teacher of the insufficiencies of this ether as a means of acquiring accurate information, so that he does not easily draw wrong conclusions.
  This ether is also the medium through which thought makes an impression upon the human brain. It is most intimately connected with the fourth subdivision of the World of Thought. This is the highest of the four subdivisions contained in the Region of Concrete Thought and the home world of the human mind. There a much clearer version of the memory of nature is found than in the reflecting ether.



The Desire / Astral World
  Like the Physical World, and every other realm of nature, the Desire World has the seven subdivisions called "Regions," but unlike the Physical World, it does not have the great divisions corresponding to the Chemical and Etheric Regions. Desire stuff in the Desire World persists through its seven subdivisions or regions as material for the embodiment of desire. As the Chemical Region is the realm of form and as the Etheric Region is the home of the forces carrying on life activities in those forms, enabling them to live, move and propagate, so the forces in the Desire World, working in the quickened dense body, impel it to move in this or that direction.
  If there were only the activities of the Chemical and Etheric Regions of the Physical World, there would be forms having life, able to move, but with no incentive for so doing. This incentive is supplied by the cosmic forces active in the Desire World and without this activity playing through every fiber of the vitalized body, urging action in this direction or that, there would be no experience and no moral growth. The functions of the different ethers would take care of the growth of the form, but moral growth would entirely lacking. Evolution would be an impossibility, both as to form and life, for it is only in response to the requirements of spiritual growth that forms evolve to higher states. Thus we at once see the great importance of this realm of nature.
  Desires, wishes, passions, and feelings express themselves in the matter of the different regions of the Desire World as form and feature express themselves in the Chemical Region of the Physical World. They take forms which last for a longer or shorter time, according to the intensity of the desire, wish, or feeling embodied in them. In the Desire World the distinction between the forces and the matter is not so definite and apparent as in the Physical World. One might almost say that here the ideas of force and matter are identical or interchangeable. It is not quite so, but we may say that to a certain extent the Desire World consists of force-matter.
  When speaking of the matter of the Desire World, it is true that it is one degree less dense that the matter of the Physical World, but we entertain an entirely wrong idea if we imaging it is finer physical matter. That idea, though held by many who have studied occult philosophies, is entirely erroneous. The wrong impression is caused principally by the difficulty of giving the full and accurate description necessary for a thorough understanding of the higher worlds. Unfortunately, our language is descriptive of material things and therefore entirely inadequate to describe the conditions of the super-physical realms, hence all that is said about these realms must be taken tentatively, as similes, rather than as accurate descriptions.
  Though the mountain and the daisy, the man, the horse, and a piece of iron, are composed of one ultimate atomic substance, we do not say that the daisy is a finer form of iron. Similarly it is impossible to explain in words the change or difference in physical matter when it is broken up into desire-stuff. If there were no difference it would be amenable to the laws of the Physical World, which it is not.
  The law of matter of the Chemical Region is inertia-the tendency to remain in status quo. It takes a certain amount of force to overcome this inertia and cause a body which is at rest to move, or to stop a body in motion. Not so with the matter of the Desire World. That matter itself is almost living. It is in unceasing motion, fluid, taking all imaginable and unimaginable forms with inconceivable facility and rapidity, at the same time coruscating and scintillating in a thousand ever-changing shades of color, incomparable to anything we know in this physical state of consciousness. Something very faintly resembling the action and appearance of this matter will be seen in the play of colors on an abalone shell when held in the sunlight and moved to and fro.
  That is what the Desire World is--ever-changing light and color--in which the forces of animal and man intermingle with the forces of innumerable Hierarchies of spiritual beings which do not appear in our Physical World, but are as active in the Desire World as we are here. Some of them will be dealt with later and their connection with man's evolution described.
  The forces sent out by this vast and varied hose of Beings mold the ever-changing matter of the Desire World into innumerable and differing forms of more or less durability, according to the kinetic energy of the impulse which gave them birth.
  From this slight description it may be understood how difficult it is for a neophyte who has just had his inner eyes opened to find his balance in the World of Desire. The trained clairvoyant soon ceases to wonder at the impossible descriptions sometimes brought through by mediums. They may be perfectly honest, but the possibilities of parallax, and of getting out of focus are legion, and of the subtlest nature, and the real wonder is that they ever communicate anything correctly. All of us had to learn to see, in the days of our infancy, as we may readily find by watching a young babe. It will be found that the little one will reach for objects on the other side of the room or the street, or for the Moon. He is entirely unable to gauge distances. The blind man who has been made to see will, at first, often close his eyes to walk from one place to another, declaring, until he has learned to use his eyes, that it is easier to walk by feeling than by sight. So the one whose inner organs of perception have been vivified must also be trained in the use of his newly acquired faculty. At first the neophyte will try to apply to the Desire World the knowledge derived from his experience in the Physical World, because he has not yet learned the laws of the world into which he is entering. This is the source of a vast amount of trouble and perplexity. Before he can understand, he must become as a little child, which imbibed knowledge without reference to any previous experience.
  To arrive at a correct understanding of the Desire World it is necessary to realize that it is the world of feeling, desires, and emotions. These are all under the domination of two great forces--Attraction and Repulsion, which act in a different way in the three denser Regions of the Desire World from that in which they act in the three finer or upper Regions, while the central Region may be called neutral ground.
  This central Region is the Region of feeling. Here interest in or indifference to an object or an idea sways the balance in favor of one of the two previously mentioned forces, thereby relegating the object or idea to the three higher or the three lower Regions of the Desire World, or else they will expel it. We shall see presently how this is accomplished.
  In the finest and rarest substance of the three higher Regions of the Desire World the force of Attraction alone holds sway, but it is also present in some degree in the denser matter of the three lower Regions, where it works against the force of Repulsion, which is dominant there. The disintegrating force of Repulsion would soon destroy every form coming into these three lower Regions were it not that it is thus counteracted. In the densest or lowest Region, where it is strongest, it tears and shatters the forms built there in a way dreadful to see, yet it is not a fatalistic force. Nothing in nature is vandalistic. All that appears so is but working towards good. So with this force in its work in the lowest Region of the Desire World. The forms here are demoniac creations, built by the coarsest passions and desires of man and beast.
  The tendency of every form in the Desire World is to attract itself all it can of a like nature and grow thereby. If this tendency to attraction were predominate in the lowest Regions, evil would grow like a weed. There would be anarchy instead of order in the Cosmos. This prevented by the preponderating power of the force of Repulsion in this Region. When a coarse desire form is being attracted to another of the same nature, there is a disharmony in their vibrations, whereby one has a disintegrating effect upon the other. Thus, instead of uniting and amalgamating evil with evil, they act with mutual destructiveness and in that way the evil in the world is kept within reasonable bounds. When we understand the working of the twin forces in this respect we are in a position to understand the occult maxim, "A lie is both murder and suicide in the Desire World."
  Anything happening in the Physical World is reflected in all the other realms of nature and, as we have seen, builds its appropriate form in the Desire World. When a true account of the occurrence is given, another form is built, exactly like the first. They are then drawn together and coalesce, strengthening each other. If, however, an untrue is given, a form different from and antagonistic to the first, or true one, is created. As they deal with the same occurrence, they are drawn together, but as their vibrations are different they act upon each other with mutual destructiveness. Therefore, evil and malicious lies can kill anything that is good, if they are strong enough and repeated often enough. But, conversely, seeking for the good in evil will, in time, transmute the evil into good. If the form that is built to minimize the evil is weak, it will have no effect and will be destroyed by the evil form, but if it is strong and frequently repeated it will have the effect of disintegrating the evil and substituting the good. That effect, be it distinctly understood, it not brought about by lying, nor denying the evil, but by looking for the good. The occult scientist practices very rigidly this principle of looking for good in all things, because he knows what a power it possesses in keeping down evil.
  There is a story of Christ which illustrates this point. Once when walking with His disciples they passed the decaying and ill-smelling carcass of a dog. The disciples turned in disgust, commenting upon the nauseating nature of this sight; but Christ looked at the dead body and said "Pearls are not whiter than its teeth." He was determined to find the good, because He knew the beneficial effect which would result in the Desire World from giving it expression.
  The lowest Region of the Desire World is called "the Region of Passion and Sensual Desire." The second subdivision is best described by the name of "Region of Impressionability." Here the effect of the twin forces of Attraction and Repulsion is evenly balanced. This is a neutral Region, hence all our impressions which are built of the matter of this Region are neutral. Only when the twin feelings, which we shall meet in the fourth Region, are brought to bear, do the twin forces come into play. The mere impression of anything, however, in and of itself, is entirely separate from the feeling it engenders. The impression is neutral and is an activity of the second Region of the Desire World, where pictures are formed by the forces of sense-perception in the vital body of man.
  In the third Region of the Desire World, the force of Attraction, the integrating, upbuilding force, has already gained the upper hand over the force of Repulsion, with its destructive tendency. When we understand that the mainspring in this force of Repulsion is self-assertion, a pushing away of all others that it may have room, we shall understand that it gives way most easily to a desire for other things, so that the substance of the third Region of the Desire World is principally dominated by the force of Attraction towards other things, but in a selfish way, and therefore this is the Region of Wishes.
  The Region of Coarse Desires may be likened to the solids in the Physical World; the Region of Impressionability to the fluids; and the fluctuating, evanescent nature of the Region of Wishes will make that compare with the gaseous portion of the Physical World. These three Regions give the substance for the forms which make for experience, soul-growth and evolution, purging the altogether destructive and retaining the materials which may be used for progress.
  The fourth Region of the Desire World is the "Region of Feeling." From it comes the feeling concerning the already described forms and upon the feeling engendered by them depends the life which they have for us and also their effect upon us. Whether the objects and ideas presented are good or bad in themselves is not important this stage. It is our feeling, whether of Interest or Indifference that is the determining factor as to the fate of the object or idea.
  If the feeling with which we meet an impression of an object or an idea is Interest, it has the same effect upon that impression as sunlight and air have upon a plant. That idea will grow and flourish in our lives. If, on the other hand, we meet an impression or idea with Indifference, it withers as does a plant when put in a dark cellar.
  Thus from this central Region of the Desire World come the incentive to action, or the decision to refrain there from (though the latter is also action in the eyes of the occult scientist), for at the present stage of our development the twin feelings, Interest and Indifference furnish the incentive to action and are the springs that move the world. At a later stage these feelings will cease to have any weight. Then the determining factor will be duty.
  Interest starts the forces of Attraction or Repulsion.
  Indifference simply withers the object or idea against which it is directed, so far as our connection with it is concerned.
  If our interest in an object or an idea generates Repulsion, that naturally causes us to expurgate from our lives any connection with the object or idea which roused it; but there is a great difference between the action of the force of Repulsion and the mere feeling of Indifference. Perhaps an illustration will make more clear the operation of the twin Feelings and the twin Forces.
  Three men are walking along a road. They see a sick dog; it is covered with sores and is evidently suffering intensely from pain and thirst. This much is evident to all three men-their senses tell them that. Now Feeling comes. Two of them take an "interest" in the animal, but in the third there is a feeling of "indifference." He passes on, leaving the dog to its fate. The others remain; they are both interested, but each manifests it in a quite different way. The interest of one man is sympathetic and helpful, impelling him to care for the poor beast, to assuage pains and nurse it back to health. In him the feeling of interest has aroused the force of Attraction. The other man's interest is of a different kind. He sees only a loathsome sight which is revolting to him and wishes to rid himself and the world of it as quickly as possible. He advises killing the animal outright and burying it. In him the feeling of interest generates the destructive force of Repulsion.
  When the feeling of Interest arouses the force of Attraction and it is directed toward low objects and desires, these work themselves out in the lower Regions of the Desire World, where the counteracting force of Repulsion operates, as previously described. From the battle of the twin forces--Attraction and Repulsion--results all the pain and suffering incident to wrongdoing or misdirected effort, whether intentional or otherwise.
  Thus we may see how very important Feeling we have concerning anything, for upon that depends the nature of the atmosphere we create for ourselves. If we love the good, we shall keep and nourish as guardian angels all that is good about us; if the reverse, we shall people our path with demons and our own breeding.
  The names of the three upper Regions of the Desire World are "Region of Soul-Life," "Region of Soul-Light," and "Region of Soul-Power." In these abide Art, Altruism, Philanthropy, and all the activities of the higher soul-life. When we think of these Regions as radiating the qualities indicated by their names, into the forms of the three lower Regions, we shall understand correctly the higher and lower activities. Soul-power, however, may for a time be used for evil purposes as well as for good, but eventually the force of Repulsion destroys vice and the force of Attraction builds virtue upon its shattered ruins. All things, in the ultimate, work together for good.
  The Physical and the Desire Worlds are not separated from each other by space. They are "closer than hands and feet." It is not necessary to move to get from one to the other, nor from one Region to the next. Just as solids, liquids, and gases are all together in our bodies, inter-penetrating one another, so are the different Regions of the Desire World within us also. We may again compare the lines of force along which ice-crystals form in water to the invisible causes originating in the Desire World, which appear in the Physical World and give us the incentive to action, in whatever direction it may be.
  The Desire World, with its innumerable inhabitants, permeates the Physical World, as the lines of force do the water--invisibly, but everywhere present and potent as the cause of everything in the Physical World.


The World of Thought
  The World of Thought also consists of seven Regions of varying qualities and densities, and, like the Physical World, the World of Thought is divided into two main divisions--the Region of Concrete Thought, comprising the four densest Regions; and the Region of Abstract Thought, comprising the three Regions of finest substance. This World of Thought is the central one of the five Worlds from which man obtains his vehicles. Here spirit and body meet. It is also the highest of the three Worlds in which man's evolution is being carried forward at the present time, the two higher Worlds being practically in abeyance as yet, so far as man is concerned.
  We know that the materials of the Chemical Region are used in building all physical forms. These are forms are given life and the power of motion by the forces at work in the Etheric Region, and some of these living forms are stirred into activity by means of the twin Feelings of the Desire World. The Region of Concrete Thought furnishes the mind-stuff in which ideas generated in the Region of Abstract Thought clothe themselves as thought-forms, to act as regulators and balance wheels upon the impulses engendered in the Desire World by impacts from the phenomenal World.
  Thus we see how the three Worlds, in which man is at present evolving, complement one another, making a whole that shows forth the Supreme Wisdom of the Great Architect of the system to which we belong, and Whom we reverence by the holy name of God.
  Taking a more detailed view of the several divisions of the Region of Concrete Thought we find that the archetypes of physical form no matter to what kingdom they may belong, are found in its lowest subdivision, or the "Continental Region." In this Continental Region are also the archetypes of the continents and the isles of the world, and corresponding to these archetypes are they fashioned. Modifications in the crust of the Earth must first be wrought in the Continental Region. Not until the archetypal model has been changed can the Intelligences which we (to hide our ignorance concerning them) call the "Laws of Nature," bring about the physical conditions which alter the physical features of the Earth according to the modifications designed by the Hierarchies in charge of evolution. They plan changes as an architect plans the alteration of a building before the workmen give it concrete expression. In like manner are changes in the flora and fauna due to metamorphoses in their respective archetypes.
  When we speak of the archetypes of all the different forms in the dense world it must not be thought that these archetypes are merely models in the same sense in which we speak of an object constructed in miniature, or in some material other than that appropriate for its proper and final use. They are not merely likenesses nor models of the forms we see about us, but are creative archetypes; that is, they fashion the forms of the Physical World in their own likeness or likenesses, for often many work together to form one certain species, each archetype giving part of itself to build the required form
  The second subdivision of the Region of Concrete Thought is called the "Oceanic Region." It is best described as flowing, pulsating vitality. All the forces that work through the four ethers which constitute the Etheric Region are there seen as archetypes. It is a stream of flowing life, pulsating through all forms, as blood pulsates through the body, the same life in all forms. Here the trained clairvoyant sees how true it is that "all life is one."
  The "Aerial Region" is the third division of the Region of Concrete Thought. Here we find the archetype of desires, passions, wishes, feelings, and emotions such as we experience in the Desire World. Here all the activities of the Desire World appear as atmospheric conditions. Like the kiss of summer breeze come the feelings of pleasure and joy to the clairvoyant sense; as the sighing of the wind in the tree-tops seem the longings of the soul and like flashes of lighting the passions of warring nations. In this atmosphere of the Region of Concrete Thought are also pictures of the emotions of man and beast.
  The "Region of Archetypal Forces" is the fourth division of the Region of Concrete Thought. It is the central and most important region in the five Worlds wherein man's entire evolution is carried on. On the one side of this Region are the three higher Regions of the World of Thought, the World of Life Spirit and the World of Divine Spirit. On the other side of this Region of Archetypal Forces are the three lower Regions of the World of Thought, the Desire and the Physical Worlds. Thus this Region becomes a sort of "crux," bounded on one side by the Realms of Spirit, on the other by the Worlds of Form. It is a focusing point, where Spirit reflects itself in matter.
  As the name implies, this Region is the home of the Archetypal Forces which direct the activity of the archetypes in the Region of Concrete Thought. From this Region Spirit works on matter in a formative manner. Diagram 1 shows the idea in a schematic way the forms in the lower World being reflections of the Spirit in the higher Worlds. The fifth Region, which is the one nearest to the focusing point on the Spirit side, reflects itself in the third Region, which is nearest the focusing point on the Form side. The sixth Region reflects itself in the second and the seventh reflects itself in the first.
  The whole of the Region of Abstract thought is reflected in the World of Desire; the World of Life Spirit in the Etheric Region of the Physical World; and the World of Divine Spirit in the Chemical Region of the Physical World.
  Diagram 2 will give a comprehensive idea of the seven Worlds which are the sphere of our development, but we must carefully keep in mind that these Worlds are not placed one above another, as shown in the diagram. They inter-penetrate--that is to say, that as in the case where the relation of the Physical World and the Desire World was compared, where we likened the Desire World to the lines for force in freezing water and the water itself to the Physical World, in the same way we may think of the lines of force as being any of the seven Worlds, and the water, as in our illustration, would correspond to the next denser World in the scale. Another illustration may perhaps make the subject clearer.
  Let us use a spherical sponge to represent the dense earth--the Chemical Region. Imagine that sand permeates every part of the sponge and also forms a layer outside the sponge. Let the sand represent the Etheric Region, which in a similar manner permeates the dense earth and extends beyond its atmosphere.
  Let us further imagine this sponge and sand immersed in a spherical glass vessel filled with clear water, and a little larger than the sponge and sand. We place the sponge and sand in the center of the vessel as the yolk is place in the center of an egg. We have now a space of clear water between the sand and the vessel. The water as a whole will represent the Desire World, for just as the water percolates between the grains of sand, through very pore of the sponge, and forms that clear layer, so the Desire World permeates both the dense Earth and the ether and extends beyond both of these substances.
  We know there is air in water, and if we think of the air in the water (in our illustration), as representing the World of Thought, we shall have a firm mental picture of the way in which the World of Thought, being finer and more subtle, inter-penetrates the two denser Worlds.
  Finally, imagine that the vessel containing the sponge, sand and water is placed in the center of a large spherical vessel; then the air in the space between the two vessels would represent that part of the World of Thought which extends beyond the Desire World.
  Each of the planets in our solar system has three such inter-penetrating Worlds, and if we think of each of the planets consisting of three Worlds as being individual sponges, and of the fourth World, the World of Life Spirit, as being the water in a large vessel where these three cold separate sponges swim, we shall understand that as the water in the vessel fills the space between the sponges and percolates through them, so the World of Life Spirit pervades inter-planetary space and inter-penetrates the individual planets. It forms a common bond between them, so that as it is necessary to have a boat and be able to control it, if we wish to sail from America to Africa, so it is necessary to have a vehicle correlated to the World of Life Spirit under our conscious control in order to be able to travel from one planet to another.
  In a manner similar to that in which the World of Life Spirit correlates us to the other planets in our own solar system does the World of Divine Spirit correlate us to the other solar systems. We may regard the solar systems as separate sponges, swimming in a World of Divine Spirit, and thus it will be apparent that in order to travel from one solar system to another it would be necessary to be able to function consciously in the highest vehicle of man, the Divine Spirit.


Peace & Love,
Paul

I forgot to add my own personal theories that I firmly believe in.  That is, a highly modified version of the many worlds interpretation.  That is, the aforementioned mention material is a time line.  I firmly believe that a time line is an unimaginably large group consciousness.  Within that group consciousness are rules.  Due to the size of such a group consciousness, the omniverse of that time line is highly stable.  It is not the universes fault that beginner projectors cannot project to a distant location in the Etheric plane and prove that the obe is real.  IMHO, the being must first learn to use that time line.  Then once mastered, the being may focus on time line jumping.  According to my own personal theories, from there the being can begin to make large time line jumps.  On the other hand, I believe that all beings make minor time line jumps on a daily basis, mostly between the time we go to sleep and wake up.  When you wake up in the morning, then by my personal theory, we made a minor time line jump.  Minor time line jumping does not change the universal laws such as Karma.  They will still exists. ;)  Yet you may notice some minor difference.

Peace,
Paul

:o what a bunch of mystic crap. These are nothing but teachings made up by someone. There is no 7 cosmic planes or even different bodies. When you get this mystical in your teachings of the astral and greater reality you make it nothing more than another stupid religion. You should only believe what you have personally experienced and even mystics who follow such beluief systems like that have just read it from somewhere else. There's no logic in believeing in things which arent real.

These teachings have been passed on down for countless years.  When a person reaches a level where they can project at will and where they have proven that their out of body experiences are real and not a self created illusion then they begin the trek of verify the ancient teachings.  Max Heindel made it clear that he verified all the teachings during his out of body travels.

First I would recommend that one needs to verify that they are not creating their own self world when projecting.  I posted many times how to do such a test.  I have my own personal proof and can only encourage others to achieve theirs.  When you can project to a distant place while out of body and verify it while in the physical body and do that nearly 100% of the time then you are ready to verify such information.

Don't give up or get frustrated.  Think positively, keep a high state of vibration, and seek the truth.  This is about seeking truth by non-physical means after you have proven to yourself the ability.  Has nothing to do with repetitious ceremonies or religion.  Ignoring the work of very gifted people is not very smart.  Your personal experiences are important but if you are going to learn and grow in a group conscious world then you need to learn to consider what others who are obviously beyond you are saying and try to test their information when you have to ability to do so.  You are not the only consciousness in existence.  There are laws within each group consciousness.  If someone says there's no such thing as a galaxy then it doesn't mean that persons beliefs will suddenly make all galaxies not exist.  During my very early years, I spent years and years searching for supernatural proof.  The effort paid off one day when I encountered someone who could vanish before your eyes, levitate, read your thoughts, and all that stuff.  So why in the world would I ignore what this person had to say?  I listened and tested.  So I have my personal proof.  Hope everyone gets there's soon one day.

Peace,
Paul

I read until *karma*...it only exists if you beLIEve it exists, I couldn't read all that! it looks like the schematics for a diesel locomotive!

Quote from: manuelI read until *karma*...it only exists if you beLIEve it exists, I couldn't read all that! it looks like the schematics for a diesel locomotive!

So in other words you believe that you are the only consciousness in all existence.  How could you expect to coexist with others when anyone can trap and inflict unimaginable amount of pain for 1000's of years and not pay the price?  The group consciousness was not dumb when the decided to split and create the worlds.  They created karma for a good reason.  Hiding one's head in the hole like the ostridge doesn't make it go away.  I know that's not what you wanted hear.  That you want everything to your control, but it would be a pretty lonely universe if you were the only consciousness.  Truth is, you are responsible for your actions.  Think about it.  Karma is not the only group consciousness law.

Peace,
Paul

Once again, ill stand by my word, there is no such thing as karma, it sounds like a souped up version of christianity, all this mish mash of having to pay of 'karma' for some deed done long ago, good and evil, up and down, the dark and light etc are just polarities, each cant exist with out the other as they are all part of the same coin,  there is no bad or good actions, just experience, what may be good for one, is bad for another, it's  just experience, in the source of the absolute, there is no up and down, every thing is just is.

add this whole karma thing in with the white light trap the recycles spirits to earth, and you see the whole mess we are in, time to bypass that bastard white light and go to the gold light, that's where our real source is, no karma, no coming back to payoff some deed, I can guarantee you, when the moment comes when we merge with our source selves, we wont talk about "oh that took you a lot of lives to pay of" no, we will share our experiences we had, my..said one source self to another, you really had some fascinating experiences as an SS guard" and so forth, remember just experience, if you think this is rubbish, that's fine, no really, it doesn't bother me, if you want to play the karma game, than you are free to do so.

well manuel,  you do not seem interested in answering the question.  Don't you think an open minded person would at least consider the question?  I don't see any way to answer the question and end up with your theory on life unless you believe you're the one that exists and everyone else is not real.

Paul

I already answered your question.

Oh really?  I don't think so.  Therefore I'll ask it again.  So in other words you believe that you are the only consciousness in all existence? How could you expect to coexist with others when anyone can trap and inflict unimaginable amount of pain for 1000's of years and not pay the price?

Peace,
Paul

Thank you for the information. As someone who has studied Rudolph Steiner, I can appreciate what you've presented. It's all just words to explain something beyond words. When you start using words that sound mystical like "etheric", "arch-angel", "archetype", "life-body", it will throw many people off. I know many people here have come to the conclusion that there is no Astral Body and "it's all within yourself", but why can't that be broken down into parts? And if all of these other "worlds" exist within yourself, wouldn't it be logical that the Physical world does too. But I bet most here would argue that idea, because they can perceive their physical body as being 100% "real".

Even Monroe believed in Karma, he just didn't call it that. But he knew that he consisted of many, many earth lives to create a "whole". If we can do something as miraculous as be born on Earth once, why not twice, or even thousands of times?

Quoteit sounds like a souped up version of christianity

Actually, having just one Earth life, dying, and going to wherever you think you go sounds more like Christianity. Karma isn't about "repaying debt". It's about gaining vital experiences that can only be had here in the physical world.

Peace,
Stook

Quote from: pmlonlineOh really?  I don't think so.  Therefore I'll ask it again.  So in other words you believe that you are the only consciousness in all existence? How could you expect to coexist with others when anyone can trap and inflict unimaginable amount of pain for 1000's of years and not pay the price?

Peace,
Paul

I didnt say I was the only consciousness in all exsistance, secondly, what price is that you entail? I dont think any one has to pay any price for there experience called life.[/b]

you know, its on the tip of my tongue, and I just cant find the words to write in what im trying to say about this all, so ill stop here.

Dear Stookie,

Quote from: StookieThank you for the information. As someone who has studied Rudolph Steiner, I can appreciate what you've presented. It's all just words to explain something beyond words. When you start using words that sound mystical like "etheric", "arch-angel", "archetype", "life-body", it will throw many people off. I know many people here have come to the conclusion that there is no Astral Body and "it's all within yourself", but why can't that be broken down into parts? And if all of these other "worlds" exist within yourself, wouldn't it be logical that the Physical world does too. But I bet most here would argue that idea, because they can perceive their physical body as being 100% "real".

I think the main issue is most people cannot get themselves to study the true mystical teachings.  If they did then they would understand that the mystics also say astral body is not real.  Time and time again I have posted that it is a group consciousness.  The only thing that is real is consciousness.  It is by the agreed rules of the group consciousness that determines certain things.  The reason the physical plane is so stable is because it is a very large group consciousness.  Same goes for all the other countless realms, each with different rules.  In a way, you could think of the astral body and astral plane as a computer program.  What is real is the computer.  Our spirit, our consciousness is that computer.

Quote from: StookieEven Monroe believed in Karma, he just didn't call it that. But he knew that he consisted of many, many earth lives to create a "whole". If we can do something as miraculous as be born on Earth once, why not twice, or even thousands of times?

Indeed.  Reincarnation is the result of Karma.  At times it may seem like I am being harsh on these people, but I am merely trying to get some to be open and consider the words of others that could perform so-called miracles.  I know mystics that can do just about anything.  The least they can do is sit down and within seconds project to a distant location or look inside a box and give the person their proof.  Their higher answers are right before them.

Quote from: Stookie

Quoteit sounds like a souped up version of christianity

Actually, having just one Earth life, dying, and going to wherever you think you go sounds more like Christianity. Karma isn't about "repaying debt". It's about gaining vital experiences that can only be had here in the physical world.

Indeed.  That's a very nice way of putting it.  The founders of all this creation, which was us, HAD to put in place certain guarantees that would not allow us to forget when we dove into the sea of so-called separation.  Karma is a universal law that guarantees each consciousness will make it back home.  It is a roadmap back home.  Without Karma, which is the law of Cause and Effect, the universe would be destined to destruction with a never ending decrease in vibration.  It would be a bottomless black hole pit.  Karma guarantees a path back home.  Home is the place we all came from.  A place where we were all one in consciousness.

Peace,
Paul

Quote from: manuelI didnt say I was the only consciousness in all exsistance, secondly, what price is that you entail? I dont think any one has to pay any price for there experience called life.[/b]

The experience is the result.  Karma is a Cause and Effect law.  Even scientists acknowledge cause and effect.  For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.  That is Karma.  You are sadly mistaking if you believe that you can murder someone for example and get away with it.  You will reap what you sew.  Thank God for the law of Cause and Effect / Karma!

Since you believe that you are experience existence with many other beings, then don't you think there would be rules to prevent devistation?  Do you actually think God, which is all things, which you are a part of, which is infinitely intelligent, would actually allow you to do anything you wanted without ANY consequence?

So let me ask you this.  Do you think that you can for example blow up the whole earth and not reap the consequences of doing so just because you think you can get away with it simply by believing nothing bad will happen to you???  

Peace,
Paul

your thinking it terms of relativity, do you realy think...in the wider reality that is, that there is a such thing as good and bad? for eg, its good that I kill the cockroaches that are infesting my home, but its bad for the roaches, stop labeling every thing with relative terms as they all belong to this "realm" and will only colour your perception. I know, I killed some one in "my past life" its now time for the acended masters to look down at me and make me reincarnate...*sob*. wow...blow up the earth, big call there! its experience for me, its experience for every one, no bad, no good, just damn experience! and thats what matters...EXPERIENCE.

Then you admit there is karma.  On the other hand, it isn't any ascended masters that punish you!  It is the laws of the universe.

Karma is based on relativity.  What you reap is relative to what sewed.  You may have a different defintion of bad.

Yes, I believe there is such a thing as good and bad.  I believe bad is destruction and good is construction.  That is a clear definition.

Peace,
Paul

Any way, thats all I realy have to say on this matter friend paul, I guess your my friend in this cosmic game eh?  :D

I bid this thread farewell.

Hello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hi pmlonline

The teachings in your post are very reminiscent of the old Theosophical teachings of Blavatsky, Leadbeater, Besant et al back in the late 1890's.  I have a few Theosophical books on the etheric, astral, mental and causal planes.  They were too thick (too many pages) for me to read.  Oliver Fox (one of the OBE pioneers) was a firm believer in Theosophy.  

Blavatsky et al claimed to obtain their information by direct clairvoyant observation, though I'm not too sure about that myself.  I think they obtained a lot of this information by raiding Eastern Mysticism, where similar teachings have existed, as you say for many hundreds of years.

Personally, I'm not too sure about all of this, it seems too detailed to me.  I think the universe is simpler than all of this.  But that's no reason to just dismiss all of this stuff out of hand as claptrap.  It might well be, but most old teachings are based on basic truths.  So there may well be an etheric body, an astral body and higher bodies.  Who are we to say for sure?

catmeow

Regarding Monroe believing in Karma. As far as I remember his 'I There' was creating new incarnations to look for the missing basics on Earth. It was even stated by his 'I There' that once they found the basic they would blast off (leave the Earth life system for good). Monroe found the missing basic which was the aperture (where he found the projector of the physical/astral planes). He didn't once mention karma. Also Monroe stated that we could not be destroyed or influenced by another being or external influence if we didn't allow it. He used this knowledge in the third book when some being tried to make him worship it as his God and then attacked him. He also continually states this throughout the gateway series especially in conjunction with the REBEL tool. If we cannot be harmed or influenced without consent, how can karma influence us without consent?
I feel that Karma is a self fulfilling prophesy rather than a tool of punishment. If you love your life and those around you, carry that love inside you. If you hate aspects of your life, that hate is carried inside of you. If you do a bad deed and your learnt moral structure makes you feel guilt. You carry that guilt inside you. At no point can I see where these feelings are generated by an external entity known as Karma. Its all internal (and perhaps not necessary).

MisterJingo,

Karma is not an entity.  It is a universal law.  If you want to participate in group consciousness then you WILL reap what you sew.  Science knows it as the law of cause and effect.  That is, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  Sorry, there is no way a group consciousness is going to allow someone to murder billions of lives and not be responsible for the action.  It is called being responsible.  Believe that karma is not real does not make it disappear.  Personally I find it very odd that so many people here are trying to believe they need not be responsible for their actions.  Karma is a universal force.  It is part of the laws that the group consciousness created.

Peace,
Paul

Belief in responsibility for actions does not equal Karma which implies an external entity (note I did not say being) dominating a person and forcing a punishment upon them.
The murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death. If I play a game with my children and one of them loses and is 'out', should I be punished for that? The consequences in a view of reality which encompasses the astral is exactly the same. If someone loses (dies) then they are out of that lifetime. They are free to go back if they desire and no great harm has been done to their soul. Please note that I am not condoning murder of any sort. I just feel the reactions of a lot of people who truly believe in life after death (especially those who follow an astral view of creation) are confusing. Another matter is that creation literally consumes itself on every level. Please tell me of a single level where energy does not consume other energy (be that animals eating animals, plants eating nutrients, man eating plants etc) does all this accrue Karmic debt too? Or is the death of lesser energy sources (lesser in our eyes anyway) not worthy of any Karma debt? With creation literally cannibalising and regurgitating itself, we will be damned forever as we will never pay off the Karma.

A question for you: It is established that good and evil are relative to the observers belief systems (which is based on the society into which he/she was born). In many ancient societies ritual sacrifice was not only considered good, it was actively sought out by members of that society as an honour, yet, in today's society such a thing would be considered evil. Who chooses the moral values which encompass creation, and have you seen some record of them? If not, then how can you be sure that your definition of this Karma is correct?

Karma smacks of passing responsibility to an higher force instead of truly being responsible for our own actions.

Edit: I should also say that I can't really see how causality can be likened to Karma.

Quote from: MisterJingoBelief in responsibility for actions does not equal Karma which implies an external entity (note I did not say being) dominating a person and forcing a punishment upon them.

Karma is not an entity or a being.  It is an energy that you create.  The moment you do something then you instantly create an energy pattern.  That energy pattern is now part of you until it is released.  When and how that energy is released is dependent upon many forces in your life.  Punishment?  I am sorry if people think God or the Universe plays sick jokes, but it is by their own doing that it takes place.

Quote from: MisterJingoThe murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death.

Yikes!!!  I hope the FBI doesn't read your post. ;-)  IMHO that is a very sad belief system.  You just justified your and anyone's actions to take away lives.  Read your post again PLEASE.  You said it is "means nothing" if the murderer believes in such and such.  A life is one of the most sacred gifts by God.  Your entire lower self (physical, etheric, astral, concrete mind) was created by the God consciousness.  It is not your right to take away your own life much less the lives of others.

Quote from: MisterJingoIf I play a game with my children and one of them loses and is 'out', should I be punished for that?

It is not my place to break you away from such thought.  All I can do is restate it over and over.  Again, it is not punishment and it is not an outside thing that does what you call punishment.  It is an energy pattern that the CHILD created, nobody else.  They did it.  It is part of the laws of universal physics.  Science discovered the law a long time ago.  Long ago we were all one-- one group consciousness, everything.  Then we decided to forget and descend into a new creation and so-called separate.  Karma was created so that all individuals could make it back home / the group.  Without the law of cause and effect there would be 100% total chaos.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease note that I am not condoning murder of any sort.

You should probably go back and study your words.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease tell me of a single level where energy does not consume other energy (be that animals eating animals, plants eating nutrients, man eating plants etc) does all this accrue Karmic debt too?

Anything you do is karma.  Move your finger and that is karma.  Karma is simply an energy pattern that you create!  It is your choice if you want to look at it as good or bad.  Haven't you ever heard people say, "That's good karma."  You can view the karma as you like, but I can assure you most sane people will view the removal of a physical life / murder as REALLY BAD Karma.

Quote from: MisterJingoA question for you: It is established that good and evil are relative to the observers belief systems

My definitions:
Good - Construction.
Bad – Destruction.

Quote from: MisterJingoIn many ancient societies ritual sacrifice was not only considered good, it was actively sought out by members of that society as an honour, yet, in today's society such a thing would be considered evil. Who chooses the moral values which encompass creation, and have you seen some record of them? If not, then how can you be sure that your definition of this Karma is correct?

Morals?  If you apply a force on an object then it pushes back.  That is inertia.  There are no morals in that.  If you murder someone then you create an equal an opposite energy pattern.  You created that energy and it is yours.  There are infinite ways that energy pattern may be released, but regardless, the amount of energy to be released will always be equal and opposite to your actions.  There are no morals in that.  It is a very simple law and no decisions are need to determine the energy you create because it is always equal and opposite to your actions.  Without it then nobody would need to be responsible for his or her actions.  The Fallen Angelic kingdom hates the law of Karma.  They also have a very similar belief that you pose.  You keep wanting to point to finger at someone, when it reality it is you that created your karma.  It is your energy.  It is a vitally important law.

Peace,
Paul

<quote>Regarding Monroe believing in Karma. As far as I remember his 'I There' was creating new incarnations to look for the missing basics on Earth. It was even stated by his 'I There' that once they found the basic they would blast off (leave the Earth life system for good).</quote>

It is also stated in that book that if a certain incarnation didn't do what was needed, it was passed over into a new incarnation to accomplish: that's Karma.

My understanding of Karma is that there is a conglomeration of energies that create a whole. We reincarnate as different individuals to go through experiences in the physical world, that aspects of those energies create. The energies obtained or not obtained during a lifetime dictates the energy put into a subsequent incarnation.

I think it's extremely naive to think "I farted in a guys salad in this life, so in my next life I will get my salad farted on". Karma is much more detailed and complicated than that.

Quote from: pmlonline

Quote from: MisterJingoBelief in responsibility for actions does not equal Karma which implies an external entity (note I did not say being) dominating a person and forcing a punishment upon them.

Karma is not an entity or a being.  It is an energy that you create.  The moment you do something then you instantly create an energy pattern.  That energy pattern is now part of you until it is released.  When and how that energy is released is dependent upon many forces in your life.  Punishment?  I am sorry if people think God or the Universe plays sick jokes, but it is by their own doing that it takes place.

A few posts back I stated that karma is a self created condition and you said no it is not, it is a law created by a group consciousness. So which is it? A law by definition is a rule set which is enforced, and as you stated it is a law created by a group consciousness, then you are literally stating that karma is a rule set enforced by a group consciousness. how can an externally created law be an innate internal process?

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoThe murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death.

Yikes!!!  I hope the FBI doesn't read your post. ;-)  IMHO that is a very sad belief system.  You just justified your and anyone's actions to take away lives.  Read your post again PLEASE.  You said it is "means nothing" if the murderer believes in such and such.  A life is one of the most sacred gifts by God.  Your entire lower self (physical, etheric, astral, concrete mind) was created by the God consciousness.  It is not your right to take away your own life much less the lives of others.

Everything means something, but you misread what I said. Life as we know it on Earth is false. Earth is simply a belief system with no greater importance than an infinite other number of belief systems. if you believe Earth has some great importance then that is an Ego produced belief. "Where I am is important".
Death is an impossibility, making someone exit a belief system is not a terrible act, that is what I said. You seem to be caught up in the human concepts of death rather than seeing Earth as a simple astral locale.
Please tell me how it is possible to truely kill anything? I am not talking about this death construct built into this astral locale.

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoIf I play a game with my children and one of them loses and is 'out', should I be punished for that?

It is not my place to break you away from such thought.  All I can do is restate it over and over.  Again, it is not punishment and it is not an outside thing that does what you call punishment.  It is an energy pattern that the CHILD created, nobody else.  They did it.  It is part of the laws of universal physics.  Science discovered the law a long time ago.  Long ago we were all one-- one group consciousness, everything.  Then we decided to forget and descend into a new creation and so-called separate.  Karma was created so that all individuals could make it back home / the group.  Without the law of cause and effect there would be 100% total chaos.

Please see above. You have stated multiple times that Karma is a law created by a group consciousness. it is not a fundamental part of LIFE energy constructs. If it exists, it has been placed there by your definition.

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease note that I am not condoning murder of any sort.

You should probably go back and study your words.

And so should you as you are presenting two conflicting accounts of what Karma is. You say it is a law created by group consciousness, then you imply it is an innate part of everything.

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease tell me of a single level where energy does not consume other energy (be that animals eating animals, plants eating nutrients, man eating plants etc) does all this accrue Karmic debt too?

Anything you do is karma.  Move your finger and that is karma.  Karma is simply an energy pattern that you create!  It is your choice if you want to look at it as good or bad.  Haven't you ever heard people say, "That's good karma."  You can view the karma as you like, but I can assure you most sane people will view the removal of a physical life / murder as REALLY BAD Karma.

Please see above about your definitions of Karma.
Please answer this question: If I was in the astral and I put my arms around another being and I phased into another astral location with them, is this a terrible deed? THey have simply moved from one location to another.
Well even Monroe stated that he hopes one day humans will see this Earth life system for what it is, so if someone tires of life here, they could end their current physical life with the knowledge death holds no punishment. Are you saying Monroe is wrong here?

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoA question for you: It is established that good and evil are relative to the observers belief systems

My definitions:
Good - Construction.
Bad – Destruction.

The entire of creation is in a constant state of destruction and construction. So creation is bad due to its destructive methods? Death can be seen as destruction, yet it is essential to the continuation of life. I don't really know what you are trying to say here?

Quote

Quote from: MisterJingoIn many ancient societies ritual sacrifice was not only considered good, it was actively sought out by members of that society as an honour, yet, in today's society such a thing would be considered evil. Who chooses the moral values which encompass creation, and have you seen some record of them? If not, then how can you be sure that your definition of this Karma is correct?

Morals?  If you apply a force on an object then it pushes back.  That is inertia.  There are no morals in that.  If you murder someone then you create an equal an opposite energy pattern.  You created that energy and it is yours.  There are infinite ways that energy pattern may be released, but regardless, the amount of energy to be released will always be equal and opposite to your actions.  There are no morals in that.  It is a very simple law and no decisions are need to determine the energy you create because it is always equal and opposite to your actions.  Without it then nobody would need to be responsible for his or her actions.  The Fallen Angelic kingdom hates the law of Karma.  They also have a very similar belief that you pose.  You keep wanting to point to finger at someone, when it reality it is you that created your karma.  It is your energy.  It is a vitally important law.

Peace,
Paul

Please see you definitions of Karma. If viewing murder in an astral model sense, I see it as bad as you are inflicting your desires on a person against their will. I can't see what other effects it would have to an immortal soul? Especially when one considers the physical is not what we are led to believe.

Edit: Where is this kingdom of fallen angels and does it have any relevance outside of those who do not follow Christianity? I would hate to even attempt a guess at how many beliefs and religions exist throughout the entirety of creation, do all the ones which do not have a concept of angel now become void?

Quote from: Stookie<quote>Regarding Monroe believing in Karma. As far as I remember his 'I There' was creating new incarnations to look for the missing basics on Earth. It was even stated by his 'I There' that once they found the basic they would blast off (leave the Earth life system for good).</quote>

It is also stated in that book that if a certain incarnation didn't do what was needed, it was passed over into a new incarnation to accomplish: that's Karma.

My understanding of Karma is that there is a conglomeration of energies that create a whole. We reincarnate as different individuals to go through experiences in the physical world, that aspects of those energies create. The energies obtained or not obtained during a lifetime dictates the energy put into a subsequent incarnation.

I think it's extremely naive to think "I farted in a guys salad in this life, so in my next life I will get my salad farted on". Karma is much more detailed and complicated than that.

The task was passed over into a new incarnation not due to a universal law making it so, but because his "I There" desired it to be. They were looking for information and so kept sending out scouts until they found it.
The concept of karma as an unalterable universal law which causes us to work off karmic debt before we can progress is what I am arguing against.

Quote from: MisterJingoA few posts back I stated that karma is a self created condition and you said no it is not, it is a law created by a group consciousness. So which is it?

I don't see where I said that.  I believe that I clearly stated that the law of karma was created by the group consciousness as part of the universe.  I also stated that that our actions creates energy patterns and that is Karma.  There is a difference between the actual law and the effect.  For example, in modern science, the electric force is a law of the universe and an particular proton going by an electron is an effect.

Quote from: MisterJingoA law by definition is a rule set which is enforced, and as you stated it is a law created by a group consciousness, then you are literally stating that karma is a rule set enforced by a group consciousness. how can an externally created law be an innate internal process?

It is not an externally created law.  Everyone created it, which includes you.  It is an agreement, not an entity or something.  It is something you, your higher and divine self agreed to.

Quote from: MisterJingoLife as we know it on Earth is false. Earth is simply a belief system with no greater importance than an infinite other number of belief systems. if you believe Earth has some great importance then that is an Ego produced belief. "Where I am is important".

That's an odd statement.  I think everyone is important.  I see no ego in that.  Everyone is just as important.

Quote from: MisterJingoDeath is an impossibility, making someone exit a belief system is not a terrible act, that is what I said. You seem to be caught up in the human concepts of death rather than seeing Earth as a simple astral locale.

I even quoted you.  Here it is again, "The murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death."  We all agree that you go to the Etheric and then the Astral when your physical dies.  If you murder somebody then you will have great karma, period.  It is not your decision to say when a person is to leave the physical plane.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease tell me how it is possible to truly kill anything? I am not talking about this death construct built into this astral locale.

Death obviously means when a body no longer operates and dissipates into energy.  The physical can die.  Your astral also die.  When you die physically you go to the etheric planes for healing.  There you will be asleep for some time.  Then you pass on to the Astral.  There you will live for a while, say 150 years.  Then you pass on to the mental realms and eventually your higher self will recreate all of your bodies again and the rebirth process starts over UNLESS you have been liberated from the continuous cycle of reincarnation.  Being liberated means that you do not have sufficient karma on the physical plane and therefore you no longer need to reincarnate.

Quote from: MisterJingoYou say it is a law created by group consciousness, then you imply it is an innate part of everything.

Yes, I said it was a law that everyone agreed to.  Why do you think that is a contradiction?  When I say you, I am talking about your higher and divine self, but that is an entirely different topic.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease answer this question: If I was in the astral and I put my arms around another being and I phased into another astral location with them, is this a terrible deed? THey have simply moved from one location to another.
Well even Monroe stated that he hopes one day humans will see this Earth life system for what it is, so if someone tires of life here, they could end their current physical life with the knowledge death holds no punishment. Are you saying Monroe is wrong here?

IMHO you are really confusing things to the point where it is dangerous for you.  Monroe wanted people to consider death a good thing!  OK?  He never wanted people to think that another being could murder someone and that is a good thing!  It is NOT your right to murder someone's physical or their astral.  Additionally I will tell you straight up that suicide is one of the greatest sins of all because that physical body was created by your higher self, that god part of you.  I am sorry, if you murder someone or commit suicide then that is a sure route to the lowest astral hells.  Again, read you statement, "so if someone tires of life here, they could end their current physical life with the knowledge death holds no punishment."  And also you said, "The murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death."

Quote from: MisterJingoThe entire of creation is in a constant state of destruction and construction. So creation is bad due to its destructive methods? Death can be seen as destruction, yet it is essential to the continuation of life. I don't really know what you are trying to say here?

I posted on this topic some time ago.  The universe is always in a state of construction in totality.  The universe is always evolving in totality.  Long ago 1/3 of the Angelic kingdom fell.  That is prime example of the way of things.  The point is, most of the Angelic kingdom evolved; i.e., 2/3 evolved and 1/3 fell.  I believe the Universe is God.  I also believe that God in totality is good.  There is an old saying, "In order for the new to come forth, the old must be destroyed."  That is birth pains, also known as growing pains.  Evolution is about change for the good.  Yes you can view life in totality as good.  For any object of any size can view viewed as good / positive or bad / negative.  Again, if you consider all things, then yes it is good, in totality.  If you consider a particular part such as a star exploding, then if the process is destruction then that by itself is not good.  You may frown on that idea, but you must know that there are various levels of good and bad.  For example, the actual physical material that makes up the star is not a highly evolved consciousness relative to you.  If you were to see the higher energies involved in that star explosion you would see there is a highly evolved life form.  On that level it is a new birth and that life form moves on to a great place.  So when considering the all realms then it may be a good thing.  Back to you example of murder.  It is not in the best interest to that life form to end its physical existence.  Your lower left is not spiritually evolved to make such decisions.  It is entirely up to that individual's higher self to decide when it is time to die physically, not yours.  When you murder some or commit suicide, you are not improving that person or yourself spiritually.

Quote from: MisterJingoEdit: Where is this kingdom of fallen angels and does it have any relevance outside of those who do not follow Christianity? I would hate to even attempt a guess at how many beliefs and religions exist throughout the entirety of creation, do all the ones which do not have a concept of angel now become void?

As you know, the fallen Angelic Kingdom is not a religion and I hope you do not believe Christians created it.  There are many great beings in creation that are very real consciousness just as you are real.  For example, Lord Christ is not a made up being.  Lord Buddha is not a made up being.  Master Jesus is not a made up being.  At age 33 Master Jesus allowed Lord Christ to manifest for 3 years.  Master Jesus is a being that is part of the human kingdom.  Lord Christ is a being that is part of the Archangel kingdom.  At present, Lord Christ is the most spiritual evolved being of the Archangel kingdom.  Archangels are a little bit beyond our understanding.  They are so spiritually evolved relative you and I that they each are a group consciousness.  That is, they can split their consciousness into thousands of parts.
Billions of years ago, before earth was even created, there was another planet during the moon period.  Moon period is simply a name, a definition that was given to refer to the time when the Angelic kingdom was incarnating.  During the moon period there was an etheric planet.  This was when the Angelic kingdom was incarnating in the flesh.  It was not a physical flesh, but rather Etheric flesh.  The Angelic kingdom never incarnated in a physical body.  The etheric plane was their physical plane.  Then came a period that many have called the great judgment day.  It is an evolutionary jump in the planet and all the life forms that inhabit the planet.  For us it is called the peace period.  During the peace period there are certain requirements.  Now beings that will cause chaos or destruction will be allowed to incarnate during the peace period.  Earths peace period will begin in the mid 2020's.  After that point, highly negative humans will not be allowed to reincarnate on Earth.  After the 1000 years of peace, those beings will be given another chance.  If they continue their present destructive path then they will become the next demons for the Animal kingdom.  One day the Animal kingdom will evolve to a spiritual state where they will have minds and will be at our present level.  For those of the human kingdom that will fall, they will be left behind and will plague the Animal kingdom just as the present fallen Angelic kingdom plagues the human kingdom.
Where are the fallen angels?  They are in the etheric and astral planes.  They fell.  The other 2/3 thirds of the Angelic kingdom evolved spiritually.

These are things that you need to prove for yourself.  The out of body projections is a great place to start.  When you can prove to yourself with out a doubt that nearly 100% of the time you are not creating your own dream / self created world while out of body then you can begin to visit the astral akashic records and eventually the more accurate mental akashic records.  There you can view history for yourself.  You can study history.  You will be able to take classes while out of body.  You may visit the Hall of Records.  I am not asking you to take my word.  My whole point here at astralpulse is to get people to be open for new ideas and to prove it for themselves and to consider that there are beings who have done so that you may learn from and consider their teachings.  There may be 99% fake mystics out there that make money off others.  But I found my proof and know there are real mystics.  For those people who are ready, there will be that mystic who is very much willing to help those help themselves.

Peace,
Paul

Monroe obviously wrote his book so the average Joe with no knowledge of these things could understand it. If he started talking about "group consciousness" and "karma" he would scare a lot of people off. He wanted to stay away from the New Age crowd.

His "I-there" was a group consciousness. Why wouldn't it be that his "I-there" was part of a larger group consciousness that consists of all humans? And his "I-there" was/is fulfilling a task of THAT group consciousness? (this could go in circles forever). He also implies that everyone has an "I-there" and similar multiple earth-incarnations.  If that's what everyone's doing, wouldn't that be what Earth is about? Isn't that Karma? On one level it's a personal thing, but on another it's for all of humanity? The microcosm and macrocosm? (seriously, I'm confusing myself).

Quote from: taoitaHello Pmlonline

Could you throw some light on the idea of concrete thought.  I mean I understand the idea of concrete ideas in terms of language, but what does it mean in a spiritual order?

Hello taoita

Basically concrete thought is the lower part of your mental unit and abstract thought is the higher part of your mental unit.  Concrete thought is the usual logical thinking.  Abstract though is higher form of though that many great people such as Tesla used.  On the other hand, this is not to be confused with Intuition.  The Intuition body is even higher than the mental body / unit.

I hope that helps,
Paul

Quote from: StookieI think it's extremely naive to think "I farted in a guys salad in this life, so in my next life I will get my salad farted on". Karma is much more detailed and complicated than that.

Hi Stookie,

I think of Karma as only an energy pattern that we create for ourselves.  I see it as only energy.  If we die then even that small amount of energy such as you said "farting in a guys salad" is also carried on when the next life occurs.  I don't think our higher self cares if it is a little bit of energy or a whole lot.  In other words, there is not threshold where our higher self says, "Oh what the heck, I'll let the lower self get away with this one and I'll just throw away that energy."  I don't think it is the higher selves choice to just throw away energy.  That energy must go somewhere.  When we reincarnate, we continue on where we left off; i.e., the karmic energy is still there.  I firmly believe each person has a higher self and it is that higher self which is part of us.  Our higher self, which is part of us, must do something with that energy.

Peace,
Paul

Quote from: pmlonline

Quote from: MisterJingoA few posts back I stated that karma is a self created condition and you said no it is not, it is a law created by a group consciousness. So which is it?

I don't see where I said that.  I believe that I clearly stated that the law of karma was created by the group consciousness as part of the universe.  I also stated that that our actions creates energy patterns and that is Karma.  There is a difference between the actual law and the effect.  For example, in modern science, the electric force is a law of the universe and an particular proton going by an electron is an effect.

In my experience the physical universe is a small part of creation as a whole, or by the universe are you encompassing all of creation? By it's very definition of being a subjective experience, causality cannot be applied to the astral, as it is very possible to break causality in imagination.
Electric force is not a force of the universe it is simply a force that exists between two charged objects. The disparity of force between the two charged objects is the cause, and the migration (propagation) of electrons is the effect. It should be noted that there is a possibility of other universes with differing initial conditions and particle charges which would make it possible that electrons might not flow between charged poles.

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Quote from: MisterJingoA law by definition is a rule set which is enforced, and as you stated it is a law created by a group consciousness, then you are literally stating that karma is a rule set enforced by a group consciousness. how can an externally created law be an innate internal process?

It is not an externally created law.  Everyone created it, which includes you.  It is an agreement, not an entity or something.  It is something you, your higher and divine self agreed to.

Well I have no experience or knowledge of this and many others haven't. I am not going to take on board unproven belief systems because others insist they are correct. Many people, including Monroe, stated repeatedly that belief is not a known, and never take anything in as a known which has not been personally verified to a high degree.

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Quote from: MisterJingoLife as we know it on Earth is false. Earth is simply a belief system with no greater importance than an infinite other number of belief systems. if you believe Earth has some great importance then that is an Ego produced belief. "Where I am is important".

That's an odd statement.  I think everyone is important.  I see no ego in that.  Everyone is just as important.

You are misreading my intentions. Everyone is important, but people see "their place" as more important than others. Your repeated instance that actions in our Earth astral location are devastating in a Karmic sense (i.e. death) seems to suggest an exaggerated importance of action in this astral locale over that of others.
If I decided to create an astral location where people can inhabit forms I generate there, would the intentional ending of one of those forms also carry tremendous karmic debt?

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Quote from: MisterJingoDeath is an impossibility, making someone exit a belief system is not a terrible act, that is what I said. You seem to be caught up in the human concepts of death rather than seeing Earth as a simple astral locale.

I even quoted you.  Here it is again, "The murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death."  We all agree that you go to the Etheric and then the Astral when your physical dies.  If you murder somebody then you will have great karma, period.  It is not your decision to say when a person is to leave the physical plane.

The only reason I mentioned the murder of a billion lives is because you originally brought up such an absurd statement. We are speaking hypothetically here.
Is Karmic debt only relevant to human beings, or do we accrue Karmic debt when we kill animals? Is that the same amount of debt or less? What if we kill insects? How much debt is that. Also, what if we kill plant life (which is a form of life), do we gain debt for that too? At what form of life do we stop accruing debt for? I am being serious with this question, so please answer it.

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Quote from: MisterJingoPlease tell me how it is possible to truly kill anything? I am not talking about this death construct built into this astral locale.

Death obviously means when a body no longer operates and dissipates into energy.  The physical can die.  Your astral also die.  When you die physically you go to the etheric planes for healing.  There you will be asleep for some time.  Then you pass on to the Astral.  There you will live for a while, say 150 years.  Then you pass on to the mental realms and eventually your higher self will recreate all of your bodies again and the rebirth process starts over UNLESS you have been liberated from the continuous cycle of reincarnation.  Being liberated means that you do not have sufficient karma on the physical plane and therefore you no longer need to reincarnate.

All I can say is that this does not agree with any of my and many other peoples findings. Monroe also didn't have any beliefs which seem remotely similar to this. He stated that Earth was an environment created by some beings to farm a form of energy produced through negative conditions. We curls decided to come and incarnate in beings which are formed here. My experience to date is along the lines of this

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Quote from: MisterJingoPlease answer this question: If I was in the astral and I put my arms around another being and I phased into another astral location with them, is this a terrible deed? THey have simply moved from one location to another.
Well even Monroe stated that he hopes one day humans will see this Earth life system for what it is, so if someone tires of life here, they could end their current physical life with the knowledge death holds no punishment. Are you saying Monroe is wrong here?

IMHO you are really confusing things to the point where it is dangerous for you.  Monroe wanted people to consider death a good thing!  OK?  He never wanted people to think that another being could murder someone and that is a good thing!  It is NOT your right to murder someone's physical or their astral.  Additionally I will tell you straight up that suicide is one of the greatest sins of all because that physical body was created by your higher self, that god part of you.  I am sorry, if you murder someone or commit suicide then that is a sure route to the lowest astral hells.  Again, read you statement, "so if someone tires of life here, they could end their current physical life with the knowledge death holds no punishment."  And also you said, "The murder of a billion lives means nothing if one truly believes in the astral and the soul surviving death."

Please do not get caught up on the murder issue. You brought up that topic so I replied but you seem to have ignored everything I have said on that issue. I think your attitude regarding suicide is totally irresponsible and fear mongering. Monroe stated indirectly that suicide was not a terrible act and no bad action would follow because of it. Have you actually witnessed anything personally other than words in a book or the words of others which tells you differently?

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Quote from: MisterJingoThe entire of creation is in a constant state of destruction and construction. So creation is bad due to its destructive methods? Death can be seen as destruction, yet it is essential to the continuation of life. I don't really know what you are trying to say here?

I posted on this topic some time ago.  The universe is always in a state of construction in totality.  The universe is always evolving in totality.  Long ago 1/3 of the Angelic kingdom fell.  That is prime example of the way of things.  The point is, most of the Angelic kingdom evolved; i.e., 2/3 evolved and 1/3 fell.  I believe the Universe is God.  I also believe that God in totality is good.  There is an old saying, "In order for the new to come forth, the old must be destroyed."  That is birth pains, also known as growing pains.  Evolution is about change for the good.  Yes you can view life in totality as good.  For any object of any size can view viewed as good / positive or bad / negative.  Again, if you consider all things, then yes it is good, in totality.  If you consider a particular part such as a star exploding, then if the process is destruction then that by itself is not good.  You may frown on that idea, but you must know that there are various levels of good and bad.  For example, the actual physical material that makes up the star is not a highly evolved consciousness relative to you.  If you were to see the higher energies involved in that star explosion you would see there is a highly evolved life form.  On that level it is a new birth and that life form moves on to a great place.  So when considering the all realms then it may be a good thing.  Back to you example of murder.  It is not in the best interest to that life form to end its physical existence.  Your lower left is not spiritually evolved to make such decisions.  It is entirely up to that individual's higher self to decide when it is time to die physically, not yours.  When you murder some or commit suicide, you are not improving that person or yourself spiritually.

Well that totally disagrees with any scientific view of the universe. You state science yet you must ignore it's fundamental principles. Evolution is pure mindless mutation. The healthier mutations survive as they improve on some condition. There is no master plan in evolution, there is no goal. Evolution will continue forever mindlessly.
Regarding the rest of the above, if you answered my question above, then that should be answered.

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Quote from: MisterJingoEdit: Where is this kingdom of fallen angels and does it have any relevance outside of those who do not follow Christianity? I would hate to even attempt a guess at how many beliefs and religions exist throughout the entirety of creation, do all the ones which do not have a concept of angel now become void?

As you know, the fallen Angelic Kingdom is not a religion and I hope you do not believe Christians created it.  There are many great beings in creation that are very real consciousness just as you are real.  For example, Lord Christ is not a made up being.  Lord Buddha is not a made up being.  Master Jesus is not a made up being.  At age 33 Master Jesus allowed Lord Christ to manifest for 3 years.  Master Jesus is a being that is part of the human kingdom.  Lord Christ is a being that is part of the Archangel kingdom.  At present, Lord Christ is the most spiritual evolved being of the Archangel kingdom.  Archangels are a little bit beyond our understanding.  They are so spiritually evolved relative you and I that they each are a group consciousness.  That is, they can split their consciousness into thousands of parts.
Billions of years ago, before earth was even created, there was another planet during the moon period.  Moon period is simply a name, a definition that was given to refer to the time when the Angelic kingdom was incarnating.  During the moon period there was an etheric planet.  This was when the Angelic kingdom was incarnating in the flesh.  It was not a physical flesh, but rather Etheric flesh.  The Angelic kingdom never incarnated in a physical body.  The etheric plane was their physical plane.  Then came a period that many have called the great judgment day.  It is an evolutionary jump in the planet and all the life forms that inhabit the planet.  For us it is called the peace period.  During the peace period there are certain requirements.  Now beings that will cause chaos or destruction will be allowed to incarnate during the peace period.  Earths peace period will begin in the mid 2020's.  After that point, highly negative humans will not be allowed to reincarnate on Earth.  After the 1000 years of peace, those beings will be given another chance.  If they continue their present destructive path then they will become the next demons for the Animal kingdom.  One day the Animal kingdom will evolve to a spiritual state where they will have minds and will be at our present level.  For those of the human kingdom that will fall, they will be left behind and will plague the Animal kingdom just as the present fallen Angelic kingdom plagues the human kingdom.
Where are the fallen angels?  They are in the etheric and astral planes.  They fell.  The other 2/3 thirds of the Angelic kingdom evolved spiritually.

These are things that you need to prove for yourself.  The out of body projections is a great place to start.  When you can prove to yourself with out a doubt that nearly 100% of the time you are not creating your own dream / self created world while out of body then you can begin to visit the astral akashic records and eventually the more accurate mental akashic records.  There you can view history for yourself.  You can study history.  You will be able to take classes while out of body.  You may visit the Hall of Records.  I am not asking you to take my word.  My whole point here at astralpulse is to get people to be open for new ideas and to prove it for themselves and to consider that there are beings who have done so that you may learn from and consider their teachings.  There may be 99% fake mystics out there that make money off others.  But I found my proof and know there are real mystics.  For those people who are ready, there will be that mystic who is very much willing to help those help themselves.

Peace,
Paul

To me the above sounds like a religious belief system and nothing more. I have not seen even an atom of evidence to suggest any of what you write. I have every belief that people who die will find their deities, but my experience would suggest that these deities are no true creator, they are possibly highly advanced thought forms given power and strength by the belief of their followers.
What of the nonhuman life systems, the countless trillions of alien plants whose life and consciousness resembles nothing of our own? My problem with all this is that it is so human centred, its imagery is human, its logic and belief type is human and it encompasses only human knowns. Human existence, logic, ideologies are all just one of countless which exist throughout creation. I cannot deny that you might have seen proof, but that is the nature of the astral, we interpret it through our own belief systems. If you believe in such things, that is what you will find.

Quote from: StookieMonroe obviously wrote his book so the average Joe with no knowledge of these things could understand it. If he started talking about "group consciousness" and "karma" he would scare a lot of people off. He wanted to stay away from the New Age crowd.

His "I-there" was a group consciousness. Why wouldn't it be that his "I-there" was part of a larger group consciousness that consists of all humans? And his "I-there" was/is fulfilling a task of THAT group consciousness? (this could go in circles forever). He also implies that everyone has an "I-there" and similar multiple earth-incarnations.  If that's what everyone's doing, wouldn't that be what Earth is about? Isn't that Karma? On one level it's a personal thing, but on another it's for all of humanity? The microcosm and macrocosm? (seriously, I'm confusing myself).

He did seem to suggest that his "I-there" was part of a larger group which is waiting for all "I-theres" to find their missing parts. I just think the traditional interpretation of Karma is too loaded to use in regards to I-there finding their knowns and parts. If some of them suddenly decided to go exploring as they couldn't be bothered any more, no negative action would come of it. Perhaps the other I-theres would simply incarnate more to take their place and when the time to 'blast off', as Monroe put it, came, the exploring I-there would come back to take its place.
The I-theres seem to be explores of self and reality, trying to find their source, they are not compelled by anything other than the desire to grow and explore.

Quote from: MisterJingoIf I decided to create an astral location where people can inhabit forms I generate there, would the intentional ending of one of those forms also carry tremendous karmic debt?

People project into a group consciousness and create their own forms, but if you wanted to create a world and provide other people with a form then the form is your energy and you can do as you wish with that energy.  Same goes with your physical body.  Your higher self created your lower self and it has the right to do as it wishes with it, which will always be in your best interest.

Quote from: MisterJingoThe only reason I mentioned the murder of a billion lives is because you originally brought up such an absurd statement.

Actually it is not as absurd as you may think.  If you look into akashic records you should see that a very old civilization in Orion destroyed an entire planet in the Pleiades.  Of course this was long ago when the Pleiades was young.  Such an action now would be met with great force by the Pleiades, who are now very advance technologically.

Quote from: MisterJingoWe are speaking hypothetically here. Is Karmic debt only relevant to human beings, or do we accrue Karmic debt when we kill animals? Is that the same amount of debt or less? What if we kill insects? How much debt is that. Also, what if we kill plant life (which is a form of life), do we gain debt for that too? At what form of life do we stop accruing debt for? I am being serious with this question, so please answer it.

Yes.  I mentioned before that even when you move your finger you have created an energy pattern.  That is karma.  I hope you are not looking at karma as some debt or even punishment.  It is a way that all beings learn to be responsible for their actions.  You're not really going to notice much karma from just moving your finger, lol, but none the less that energy must be released somehow and you will not really notice it.  Karma is simply relative to your effect.  How to equate the life of an ant relative to a human is beyond me.  It is difficult enough to just calculate the effect from two oppositely charged particles.  I can tell you that there is less negative karma (what you would probably consider negative) when dealing with the animal kingdom than dealing with the human kingdom.  Further more, there is far less karma when dealing with the plant kingdom.

Quote from: MisterJingoAll I can say is that this does not agree with any of my and many other peoples findings. Monroe also didn't have any beliefs which seem remotely similar to this. He stated that Earth was an environment created by some beings to farm a form of energy produced through negative conditions. We curls decided to come and incarnate in beings which are formed here. My experience to date is along the lines of this

First, that seems vague.  I can think of numerous ways to interpret those words into what mystics are saying.  Monroe uses different lingo.  Second, I do not believe Monroe was a liberated being.  But getting past that, I said several things in your quote.  1. When you die, you go to the Etheric plane to heal and prepare for your new astral life.  2. That the astral body eventually dies.  3. Then you pass to the mental realms.  4. The rebirth starts over unless you have liberated yourself.  So do you actually believe your astral body lives for ever?  If so then you agree with #2.  Do you believe there is a place that people go after they die for rest and healing?  If so then you agree with #1.  What part do you disagree with?  You said Monroe believes earth was created by some beings.  The mystics I follow say the same thing.  You said that Monroe believes these beings farm a form of energy produced through negative conditions.  That really sounds like a very brief statement by Monroe that I am sure if you were to ask him to elaborate on that you would be surprised what he would say.  Yet again, I know Monroe did not reach the level of spiritual development that I require in a teacher.  That's just my own personal requirement.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease do not get caught up on the murder issue. You brought up that topic so I replied but you seem to have ignored everything I have said on that issue. I think your attitude regarding suicide is totally irresponsible and fear mongering. Monroe stated indirectly that suicide was not a terrible act and no bad action would follow because of it.

You might want to show a direct quote of Monroe saying that.  I do not think Monroe would say such a terrible thing.

Quote from: MisterJingoWell that totally disagrees with any scientific view of the universe. You state science yet you must ignore it's fundamental principles. Evolution is pure mindless mutation.

The universe is guided by higher beings.  Please, lets not even think that modern material scientists have the answers on that.  They can't even see the etheric planes much less the astral and higher realms.

Quote from: MisterJingoThe healthier mutations survive as they improve on some condition. There is no master plan in evolution, there is no goal. Evolution will continue forever mindlessly.

LOL, well you posed a claim with no backbone so I cannot comment on it.

Quote from: MisterJingoRegarding the rest of the above, if you answered my question above, then that should be answered.

I believe that I have answered all of your questions.

Quote from: MisterJingoTo me the above sounds like a religious belief system and nothing more. I have not seen even an atom of evidence to suggest any of what you write. I have every belief that people who die will find their deities, but my experience would suggest that these deities are no true creator, they are possibly highly advanced thought forms given power and strength by the belief of their followers.

When you learn how to project and see correctly then you will get the answers to your questions.  Refer to my suggested tests.

Quote from: MisterJingoWhat of the nonhuman life systems, the countless trillions of alien plants whose life and consciousness resembles nothing of our own? My problem with all this is that it is so human centred, its imagery is human, its logic and belief type is human and it encompasses only human knowns. Human existence, logic, ideologies are all just one of countless which exist throughout creation

You say that because you have not studied such teachings.  I have crammed a few ideas into your mind which normally takes years to learn.  There is no way you could possibly conceive a clear picture of what I am trying to tell you.  First, the Archangels cover just our solar system.  Ok?  Other solar systems have Archangels.  It is a process of spiritual evolution.  The Angelic kingdom covers just our planet.  Other planets have their own Angelic kingdom.  One problem that people such as yourself have is getting past the issues and problems that religions have posed on society over the 1000's of years.  That is not my problem.  I can only urge you and others to get past it and seek the truth.  I already have my personal proof.  I proved my obe's were real.  I found my teachers and they do not write and sell books and speculate on trivial questions that you and I are talking about.  They are at a level where such ideas are extremely simple to test and find the truth.  It is not my place to prove anything to you.  Surely you believe there are extraterrestrials that can travel to earth that have technology far beyond ours.  They do not land and prove things to Earth.  Surely you believe there is life after death.  They do not manifest and prove things to Earth.  Perhaps you should ponder why this is so.  I said Earth was a class.  It is not my place or anyone's place to prove anything to you.  All I suggest to everyone here is don't give up on the ideas I mentioned.  Don't give up on the idea that there are super human beings incarnated in physical bodies on Earth right now.  Yes, every group has their own lingo.  Every group has their own interpretation.  Yes, nobody has 100% accurate answers.  Yes, some groups do not even have 50% correct answers.  Consider this.  If an Archangel exists, then do you not think such a being could find more accurate answers then say Monroe or even a Mystic?

Quote from: MisterJingoI cannot deny that you might have seen proof, but that is the nature of the astral, we interpret it through our own belief systems. If you believe in such things, that is what you will find.

What if I told you that there are groups of people who project every night and come back with the same memories in the flesh?  My biggest point here at astralpulse right now is that most projectors do create their own self illusions while projecting, but with time and effort that will go away.  Anyone can prove it to themselves.

Peace,
Paul

Those are some good diagrams Pmonline, thanks for presenting them to tune in. I know you understand all this.

"Basically concrete thought is the lower part of your mental unit and abstract thought is the higher part of your mental unit. Concrete thought is the usual logical thinking. Abstract though is higher form of thought that many great people such as Tesla used. On the other hand, this is not to be confused with Intuition. The Intuition body is even higher than the mental body unit."

I'm sure you understand. I'm just presenting what your thoughts evoked in me for anyone to read. Please don't get Karma freaky with me.  

Abstract Mind and Concrete Mind as it is written are both reflections of the same thing, its one big mirror to look at ourselves. Not one is above the other. Intuition is the use of the concrete mind and the abstract mind combined. You have to know your concrete mind, to make connections with the abstract mind.

Abstract thought is where we make connections, as I call them Link-ups, threads or whatever you want, are made on intuition. If you link up one star with another star and so on you'll eventually you might form an abstract pattern, that will only have relevance to yourself, the pattern you feel and see is intuition, and intuition is creative imagination knowing the difference between real and non-real 'illusion'.

The same with abstract thought, Connections formed obviously depend on the personality memory experiences and desire, all the other things mentioned.  

I believe everyone's Abstract Mind records thought in a different way, this due to the memories and experiences that have affected the individual, creed color ect. Faith in Religion helps to bring about mystical states, not Holosync, here's a cheap version of holosync, move your left hand in a circle moving towards you and let your right hand do the opposite, keep the rhythm going then change directions.    

Pmonline thanks for helping me think of this.

Visualize and look at this magic carpet blowing in the evening wind, now reverse it and delete its threads, at whatever speed you want slow or fast, now re-thread the carpet  tightly or slowly any speed you want, re-threaded, it becomes solid like concrete, that's the magic carpet almost in its most word perfect form.          

Hope I've said something interesting.

Blessings

Brad

PS- Which way did the Archangels Fall?

ADDED VIOLET LIGHT

Hi,

I'm just curious if that information is something you just designed on your own?

Quote from: IequalMC2Abstract Mind and Concrete Mind as it is written are both reflections of the same thing, its one big mirror to look at ourselves. Not one is above the other.

The word Above in mysticism usually means "higher in vibration."  Not that you said it, but I just wanted to clarify that abstract and concrete thoughts have nothing to do with physical brain.  They are part of the Menal unit, which is a body of energy in a higher realm than your Astral and Etheric bodies.  Real mystics have divided the mental realm into seven areas.  Additionally there is also two very distinct areas-- the Abstract and concrete.  Abstract thought is in the higher half of the  mental realm and concrete the lower half.

Quote from: IequalMC2Intuition is the use of the concrete mind and the abstract mind combined. You have to know your concrete mind, to make connections with the abstract mind.

No offense but this really sounds like a theory you designed.  The information I am referring to comes from very adept beings who are liberated off the reincarnation cycle.  You could call them super human beings.
Intuition comes from yet an even higher realm beyond the Mental realm.  Truthfully Brad, Intuition really doesn't have much to do with the Mental unit.  The Intuition is reflected in the Astral / Desire / Emotional body.  As you know, the Astral body is where our emotions come from.  That is why emotions and intuition are so related.  Most intuitive people will say as example "I am feeling that your grandfather will recover soon."  Also people say, "I have a gut feeling."  The Male on earth has a more powerful Physical body.  The Female has a more powerful Astral body.  Since intuition is reflected on the Astral / Emotional realm, that is why females on average are more intuitive than males.
Males are more focused on the Physical and Mental whereas females are more focused on the Astral / Emotional and Intuition.  That is why so many psychic men prefer the company of women because women *on average* have a higher vibration.  If every country in the world had a female as president then there wouldn't be all the wars.  Of course, there are some females that are not as focused on Emotional & Intuition.  If what you said were true then average male would be more intuitive than average female.


Maybe you and others here could answer a few questions for me.  It seems some people here relish, I mean really relish the idea of finding truth on their own.  Yes, obviously anyone can see why it would be so attractive.  Don't get me wrong.  I am a truth seeker, so in that sense I am seeking truth on my own.  What I mean is so many here want to create their own theories.  Although, can you people see where I am coming from?  I mean, for starters, don't you people really think that there might be people walking around today that have 24/7/365 continuity of consciousness?  FYI, continuity of consciousness is when someone never loses consciousness.  That is, when they go to bed, they simply slip out of body in full consciousness and remain conscious the entire time.  I am talking about people who could physically vanish right before your eyes or read your mind, etc.  Long ago I always had a strong gut feeling there were such people in society.  In fact, the gut feeling was so strong that I knew it!  So I began my trek early on in life.  I went and saw everyone from channelers to psychics.  I found most people to be sincere but not all that gifted.  I mean most were gifted to some degree.  After years of searching I finally found what I was searching for.  I found my answer.  So on a personal note, I know for a fact these mystics exist and they are walking around us in society.  And they are not the ones who advertise and try to prove their abilities to people.

Question 1, do you people have this intense inner gut feeling that such superhuman mystics walk amongst us in the flesh.

Question 2,  do you have the drive to find such people?

Question 3, don't you think such people have a better chance at finding the non-physical truths than you?  Again, such people = people who have continuity of consciousness, can project at will in seconds, can and have proven their obe's are real nearly 100% of the time and not self-created, who can teleport astral, etherically as well as physically.

Peace,
Paul

1. When in my late teens I was drawn towards meditation and started my task of learning what it is. Then I found Monroe's "Ultimate Journey". Things that were mentioned in that book really sparked my interest in what might be - especially when he mentioned the he/she being living on this Earth who was supposedly one of the most advanced beings here. I do believe such beings exist.

Which led me to...

2. A strong desire to learn more. In my searching I found the teachings of Rudolph Steiner (founder of Anthroposophy or Spiritual Science), who pretty much has the same info that you've presented. However, I never had the drive to find such "superhumans" because I figured I needed to develop more of myself before any type of meeting could be possible, if ever possible.

3. I'm sure they have a better chance at finding non-physical truths than me. But can they really help me to Astral Project? Isn't that something I have to do on my own? I think that once I'm proficient in projecting, I'll be able to confirm what they say through my own explorations. Right now, I'm still trying to maintain a decent focus 10.

I'm assuming you've gone through Rosicrucian initiations. Is it really as simple as signing up?

So we should stop thinking, and trying to hear and interpret our souls call, and we should remain silent. This topic is self-evident and pointless.

Self-evident because, two people who share basically the same views can hurt each other due to explaining the influence of the absent third party member.

There's a lot of room here for misunderstanding! So breath and think.

Yes
No
No

That Information came directly from 'Source', directly from the Tree you posted above. I would like to say it was something I designed on my own, but I don't think I'm that clever, I might call on its unmanifested confidence, for awhile to make myself feel better (believing that its all me), but not often. Thoughts like that come from UP.

My understanding is an acumination, of genuine discussions, and the linking together of every abstract thought I've swam in like the above, when I say whatever comes to me to describe what I'm thinking with my loose tongue.

I've also read a lot of useless books, studied lots of teachings and communed with invisible teachers (while reading). And decoded all my light that has been switched on. (Most people are still possessed by there own light.)  

I don't need to Astral Project. I'm out of body now. If I need to I'll be sent one.

Pmonline,

It is my understanding of the information you just posted, interpreted by my logical concrete lower mind, running in flow, consciously in this group conscious thought river, therefore that information obviously came from you!

But before it came from you it came from me when I decided talk about Karma the other day, which you think has affected the group, so you decided to demonstrate, your freewill, by bringing up the K word, and warning me and anyone else that Karma can't be overcome.  

Does it not occur to you that some people need to believe that Karma can be overcome in order just to live through a day; do you know the anomaly, and its effect?

Max Hiendel says nothing; Information is put down in order for the lower mind to communicate into abstract thought, Visa Versa, on earth we have lots of religions, therefore religion itself is used as a trigger, that's how higher beings see it, they are indifferent.  

I don't like using my tongue like this, but you made me an offer I can't refuse.

Max Hiendel and the Super human beings agree with me.

"No offense but this really sounds like a theory you designed. The information I am referring to comes from very adept beings who are liberated off the reincarnation cycle. You could call them super human beings."

Explaining your understanding of Max's teachings, 'Your Theory' which works well for almost everyone Christian, also contains lots of information to 'decode' for any religion new or old, the memory of nature put down to consciously decode not read.

As it is written:

"You say that because you have not studied such teachings. I have crammed a few ideas into your mind which normally takes years to learn. There is no way you could possibly conceive a clear picture of what I am trying to tell you"

That's explaining to you how it is, and I'm also interested in learning karmic lessons.

I know what you're trying to do.

You lead them you know where you're going, I'm always uncertain.


Which way did the Archangels Fall?

IequalMC2,

First, that green text is really hard to read, lol.  I just press Ctrl A on my keyboard to make it easier to read. :-)

I am learning what personalities types are advantageous to converse with.  What I've learned is that when two people's view on life so different that it does very little good to try and meet on common ground.  I think that perhaps you and I are like that.  Truthfully, I think that we would have to write back and forth so much before we would see eye to eye / common ground that it would fill up an encyclopedia, lol.  According to your answers, you said No for the last two.  Meaning, you do not believe there are people incarnated in the flesh who have such mentioned abilities.  Right off the bat we have a massive disagreement.

To that effect, we just really disagree in a big way.  In fact, we seem to be so different that there are massive misconceptions taking place between our replies.  For example, you wrote "so you decided to demonstrate, your freewill, by bringing up the K word, and warning me and anyone else that Karma can't be overcome."  For the life of me IequalMC2, I cannot even begin to understand why you would say that because it is the farthest from what I have said.  I never once said Karma can't be overcome.  Either you are speed reading my posts or I just do not see where you are coming from.  I think we are just very different personalities.  I do not think it is wise for me to correct the other things that you believe I said.

That being said,  I truly hope we can agree to disagree. :-)

Peace,
Paul

Heelo Stookie,

I think we see more on common ground.  I love to read other theories and opinions but sometimes the other person is so far away in consciousness that for me it is like looking into a kaleidoscope.

I know what you are saying about first developing yourself before looking for such mystics.  Perhaps I got lucky because as you know the teachers do say that the student must first be ready.  On the other hand, that inner drive in me to search for this person was so strong that I couldn't ignore it.

Such mystics could indeed force you to have an obe, but you are correct in that they would not do such a thing.  It could cause damage to your energy system and such.  I don't think they want to help you do it.  Rather, they want to help you help yourself.  You've heard to old saying, "Give me a fish, feed me for a day. Teach me to fish, feed me for a lifetime."

There are a lot of different Rosicrucian organizations.  Personally I merely interested in the information, not all of that initiation stuff.  Yes, it is as easy as signing up, but the organizations are ran by non-initiates.  I know they call themselves initiates, but I am told that a real initiate will not refer to him or herself as such.  I see all of the initiation ceremonies as religious.  There are a lot Rosicrucian organizations that do not do that ceremonial stuff.  Max Heindel never did that stuff.  He would never promote anyone to a 1st degree initiate.  True initiations are an expansion, a real change in your bodies and spiritual development.

Peace,
Paul

Paul,

I mutually agree with you, and it feels so good! :D

I just manifest my thoughts a little differently, when learning I don't read or think, I decode and manifest. So my answers might be confusing for everyone else, even me at first, but I know what they mean to me afterwards.  

Anyway

Much Love n Respect!

Brad

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been on vacation and have only just got back.

Quote from: pmlonline
First, that seems vague.  I can think of numerous ways to interpret those words into what mystics are saying.  Monroe uses different lingo.  Second, I do not believe Monroe was a liberated being.  But getting past that, I said several things in your quote.  1. When you die, you go to the Etheric plane to heal and prepare for your new astral life.  2. That the astral body eventually dies.  3. Then you pass to the mental realms.  4. The rebirth starts over unless you have liberated yourself.  So do you actually believe your astral body lives for ever?  If so then you agree with #2.  Do you believe there is a place that people go after they die for rest and healing?  If so then you agree with #1.  What part do you disagree with?  You said Monroe believes earth was created by some beings.  The mystics I follow say the same thing.  You said that Monroe believes these beings farm a form of energy produced through negative conditions.  That really sounds like a very brief statement by Monroe that I am sure if you were to ask him to elaborate on that you would be surprised what he would say.  Yet again, I know Monroe did not reach the level of spiritual development that I require in a teacher.  That's just my own personal requirement.

Whether Monroe was a liberated being or not is purely personal opinion. But he does meet your criteria of being an advanced being, that is he could project at will, and not only that, he also had full contact with his 'I-There' (higher self) in any focus state of consciousness. He could phase into that astral within moments towards the end of his life on Earth. The statement about the beings farming energy was actually a central part of monroes new belief systems, he termed the energy 'loosh' and wrote a full chapter on the mechanism of Earth Life system and how it was created and evolved to produce this energy. Also, this concept was important to him as it was a shock revelation that 'the God of his childhood was dead' i.e. he saw what the Earth life system was and the God of his childhood had not created it, and did not watch lovingly over it, Earth was simply a construct to produce a refined energy form.
I believe you go into what I term the astral when you die, I also believe that one will experience their belief of death made manifest. That is a person will find themselves in a belief construct (the belief system territories) that matches what they truly think exists in the afterlife. It could be pearly gates, or one of the hells or heavens of other religions. Regarding energy bodies, I am not committing myself to any ideology on them. I have a feeling that the whole energy body system might simply be a deeply ingrained belief system, and if it is, I don't want to get bogged down within it. Further exploration will tell.

Quote

QuoteMonroe stated indirectly that suicide was not a terrible act and no bad action would follow because of it.

You might want to show a direct quote of Monroe saying that.  I do not think Monroe would say such a terrible thing.

Here is a direct quote:

Quote
If I knew with no trace of doubt what I would be and do after I died, it would change me radically. I could live my physical life to the fullest, without the shadow lurking behind every second, the shadow that says one wrong move and your time is up! If we knew that each of us had the option to depart when we were certain our physical future held no more light for us, how our lives would be transformed! If we had the assurance that, no matter what happens, we can continue our love bonding beyond the Earth Life System and time-space - if we were certain that when a loved one departs we would know beyond doubt where we can find him or her - what a wonderful freedom we would have!

Robert A. Monroe - Ultimate Journey, Chapter 16, page 230.

I think this idea is mentioned earlier in this series of books too, but I haven't had time to search through them yet.

Quote

QuoteWell that totally disagrees with any scientific view of the universe. You state science yet you must ignore it's fundamental principles. Evolution is pure mindless mutation.

The universe is guided by higher beings.  Please, lets not even think that modern material scientists have the answers on that.  They can't even see the etheric planes much less the astral and higher realms.

The above statement is moot. Most mystics and religious systems are bogged down with tremendous dogma which makes their view of reality as cloudy as the one currently described by science.

Quote

QuoteThe healthier mutations survive as they improve on some condition. There is no master plan in evolution, there is no goal. Evolution will continue forever mindlessly.

LOL, well you posed a claim with no backbone so I cannot comment on it.

Backbone or not. I stand by that statement although I will add something to it, I will say evolution has no direction but it seems to tend towards complexity. If evolution has a direction please tell me what you regard this final state of creation to be, and also what will happen at this final state of creation.

Quote

QuoteTo me the above sounds like a religious belief system and nothing more. I have not seen even an atom of evidence to suggest any of what you write. I have every belief that people who die will find their deities, but my experience would suggest that these deities are no true creator, they are possibly highly advanced thought forms given power and strength by the belief of their followers.

When you learn how to project and see correctly then you will get the answers to your questions.  Refer to my suggested tests.

I have been projecting since earliest childhood and can see very clearly.

Quote

QuoteWhat of the nonhuman life systems, the countless trillions of alien plants whose life and consciousness resembles nothing of our own? My problem with all this is that it is so human centred, its imagery is human, its logic and belief type is human and it encompasses only human knowns. Human existence, logic, ideologies are all just one of countless which exist throughout creation

You say that because you have not studied such teachings.  I have crammed a few ideas into your mind which normally takes years to learn.  There is no way you could possibly conceive a clear picture of what I am trying to tell you.  First, the Archangels cover just our solar system.  Ok?  Other solar systems have Archangels.  It is a process of spiritual evolution.  The Angelic kingdom covers just our planet.  Other planets have their own Angelic kingdom.  One problem that people such as yourself have is getting past the issues and problems that religions have posed on society over the 1000's of years.  That is not my problem.  I can only urge you and others to get past it and seek the truth.  I already have my personal proof.  I proved my obe's were real.  I found my teachers and they do not write and sell books and speculate on trivial questions that you and I are talking about.  They are at a level where such ideas are extremely simple to test and find the truth.  It is not my place to prove anything to you.  Surely you believe there are extraterrestrials that can travel to earth that have technology far beyond ours.  They do not land and prove things to Earth.  Surely you believe there is life after death.  They do not manifest and prove things to Earth.  Perhaps you should ponder why this is so.  I said Earth was a class.  It is not my place or anyone's place to prove anything to you.  All I suggest to everyone here is don't give up on the ideas I mentioned.  Don't give up on the idea that there are super human beings incarnated in physical bodies on Earth right now.  Yes, every group has their own lingo.  Every group has their own interpretation.  Yes, nobody has 100% accurate answers.  Yes, some groups do not even have 50% correct answers.  Consider this.  If an Archangel exists, then do you not think such a being could find more accurate answers then say Monroe or even a Mystic?

Please don't think that I haven't heard such ideas as these before, I have friends in all disciplines and have heard such ideas and even more outlandish ones in my time. if such ideas do not fit with my experience, I keep them as a store of knowledge, but it would be foolish of me to follow them. If an Archangels exist, logic does not follow that such a being knows more than Monroe or even a Mystic. They might know more of certain areas of the astral, such as I know more about the physical than a child, but that does not equate they are any closer to truth of creation, or are not lost in a complicated belief system. Having more knowledge, or knowing more tricks does not mean one is more advanced. If you have had experience in the astal then you would of seen beings with almost Godlike powers yet who are terribly lost in their own belief systems/kingdoms.
Please note that I do not deny the existence of such beings, their are beings out there which are so alien that people of our human mindset would not even recognise them as sentient, yet they are powerful. I just choose at this moment in time to not commit to belief systems which contain such beings as I'm not sure if such a thing is truly needed.