Enochian, Kabalah, High Magick

[Leyla]

I get the feeling you are a teenaged boy.

Look, I think this "Enochian/Kaballah" thing is just a phase you are going through. Eventuallly you will grow bored with it, as I did.

If you follow the teaching of someone who is perverse, abusive, and corrupt you will be deeply mislead. Crowley was not "hedonistic;" hedonistic is what I am. Crowley was just sick.

Everything Enochian/Kaballah has, it takes from Babylonian, and older forms Magick.

For example, it tells you to invoke the Hebrew God "Yahweh" (Tetragrammaton) and paint the name "Yahweh" on all your Alter Tools; when Yahweh is an Extinct Volcano. http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/VolcanoGod.html

Crowley was trying to open up the gates of Hell, and invoke the Devil,  when neither exist. http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/HellAndTheDevil.html

The Arch Angels it tells you to invoke are Babylonian planetary Gods, anything El, denotes a god: Gabrie-El, (Mercury) Mikaha-El (Mars) Rafa-El (Jupiter) Uri-El (Saturn) They are called the "Watchers' because they are always watching, from the sky above.

Father Abraham came out of "Ur of the Chaldeans," Which was the southern portian of Babylon. Chaldean means "Moon Worshipper." It was capital for worship of the Moon Goddess "Sin." (Be careful not to fall into "sin!" haha.)

Also, Moses, as you will recall, was raised as an Egyptian prince. He knew everything to do with Egyptian religion. Who were the head gods of the Egyptian panthion? Isis. Ra. El.

Say it out loud: Isis. Ra. El. Isis-Ra-El...... IS-RA-EL.

The Egyptian God Amen was briefly worshiped as the "sole god" in Ancient Egypt....that's right. AMEN. Every prayer ends in "Amen."

And virtually all of the Old Testemant stories [The Flood, The creation Epic] are copied from older Sumarian ones, such as The Epic of Gilgamesh, Enki and Enlil.

LBRP is a very basic ritual and The Golden Dawn certainly did not invent it.

I have looked at your links.

They speak of upper astral plane, lower astral plane, middle astral plane, sub astral plane, but not one of them says a thing about going "beyond" the astral plane. I think you must have misunderstood.

I tried to get to this hall or records but think I landed in the wrong place. There was whipping wind all around, and when I tried to enter one I was pushed back by the astral wind. Apparently the place was "off limits" to me.  

That is one clever editing job. Trying to make it look as if I am barred from the hall of records.
I was actually focused on seeing my "past lives" which I assumed would take me straight  to the hall of records. Instead I landed in some sort of astral stonehenge where past lives are kept. I was barred from seeing my most recent past life, though I was able to see others. I suspect this is because the people from my most recent past life are still alive.

If anyone could use the "magick squares," I'm sure it would be me. But I would have try first.
Unfortunatly none of you "High Magicians" seem to know what you're supposed to do with them. This is why I do not doubt the "ancient documents" were exposed as frauds.

You admit that you do not know how to use them. Does this mean you A) Lack the Ability or B) Have never been to the Astral, or any Higher Realm?

I don't like to throw my qualifications around, but since you question them, I was visiting the astral plane for about six years before I ever joined the Astral Pulse.

I've studied with:
A Dianic Priestess,
A Native American Medicine Man,
A Italian Strega and
A Buddhist Monk

... Among others.  

There was also two years time spent with Orthadox Jews, where I picked up Kaballah. (Which I later put right back down.)

[Alaskans]

No kidding, you have to be an idiot to question Leyla's experience. Im only a little sensative and picked it up right away (before looking a post). But don't let it get to your head Leyla. (:nod: I know, you don't)

[Leyla]

Oh, so much flattery!  :redface:  :redface:  :redface:
It's not that big a deal, really.

[Hagethuriel]

If you follow the teaching of someone who is perverse, abusive, and corrupt you will be deeply mislead. ....Everything Enochian/Kaballah has, it takes from Babylonian, and older forms Magick.

Exactly , we agree on two premises anyway . Kabballah is historically evidenced over 2000 years ago and it is presumed to be much older . So it is certainly not the work of Crowley but he did bring to light valid exceptional teachings .

For example, it tells you to invoke the Hebrew God "Yahweh" (Tetragrammaton) and paint the name "Yahweh" on all your Alter Tools; when Yahweh is an Extinct Volcano. http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/VolcanoGod.html

Yahweh is the name of the Father God of all Abrahamic . Jehovah is a derivation of this name .

Crowley was trying to open up the gates of Hell, and invoke the Devil,  when neither exist. http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/HellAndTheDevil.html

Hells exist , I have projected there with mates and these realms have been described by numerous metaphysical authors of great repute . I do not believe in the devil . But I do believe in demons and angels .

The Arch Angels it tells you to invoke are Babylonian planetary Gods, anything El, denotes a god: Gabrie-El, (Mercury) Mikaha-El (Mars) Rafa-El (Jupiter) Uri-El (Saturn) They are called the "Watchers' because they are always watching, from the sky above.

These are not Gods . I have seen them and been taught by them . They are archangels .

Father Abraham came out of "Ur of the Chaldeans," Which was the southern portian of Babylon. Chaldean means "Moon Worshipper." It was capital for worship of the Moon Goddess "Sin." (Be careful not to fall into "sin!" haha.)

I believe in the Moon Goddess .

Also, Moses, as you will recall, was raised as an Egyptian prince. He knew everything to do with Egyptian religion. Who were the head gods of the Egyptian panthion? Isis. Ra. El.
Say it out loud: Isis. Ra. El. Isis-Ra-El...... IS-RA-EL.

El is not a "top god" of Egypt ."NEKHBET vulture-goddess of Nekheb (modern El-Kab); tutelary deity of Upper Egypt, sometimes appearing on the royal diadem beside the cobra (Edjo)." El is akin to THE but the point is valid anyway and already familiar to me .

The Egyptian God Amen was briefly worshiped as the "sole god" in Ancient Egypt....that's right. AMEN. Every prayer ends in "Amen."

Is this Trivial Pursuit ? This does not pertain to the thread . I am panatheistic so this does not concern me . But similar  names are not Amen but Amon Ra and Amenotep .

And virtually all of the Old Testemant stories [The Flood, The creation Epic] are copied from older Sumarian ones, such as The Epic of Gilgamesh, Enki and Enlil.

D. as above . ...

LBRP is a very basic ritual and The Golden Dawn certainly did not invent it.

........difference of opinion on this

I have looked at your links. They speak of upper astral plane, lower astral plane, middle astral plane, sub astral plane, but not one of them says a thing about going "beyond" the astral plane. I think you must have misunderstood.

You cannot have missed the charts . Most if not all of the links in reply to that realms portion of the thread had hierarchies and realm charts distinguishing astral from higher .But I am sure you could also ascertain this by searching the archives here .  I do not know if I can post an image here but I will try .

a 7 Plane Chart of the Realms

Alice Bailey & Djwhal Khul - A Treatise on Cosmic Fire - IC ...
   Adi, Atomic plane 1st ether. 2. Subatomic, Monadic Anupadaka ... major rays are organized on the three higher subplanes of the monadic plane in the same way ...    
laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/fire/fire1058.html
Introduction to AstroQab
1) The plane of Adi. 2) The Monadic plane. 3) The Atmic plane. 4) The Buddhic or Intuitional plane. 5) The Higher Manasic or Higher Mental plane www.fortunecity.com/roswell/leadbeater/0/astroqabintro.htm

Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary: Adi-Ag, Theosophical ...
Adi-buddha is the individualized monadic focus of adi-buddhi, ... physical builders and destroyers are analogous to their prototypes on the higher planes. ...
ww.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/adi-ag.htm

   Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy - Chapter 18
   The latter cannot directly contact the lower planes, because it is the monadic essence itself, the latter a still higher ray of the infinite Boundless ...
   www.theosociety.org/pasadena/fund/fund-18.htm

The Theosophical Seven Planes of Existence
These planes are (from the least subtle to most): the Physical, the Emotional, the Mental, the Buddhic, the Atmic, the Monadic, and the Adi Planes. ...
www.geocities.com/xeroiii/Chakra/6Planes.htm

[DOC] 2
File Format: Microsoft Word 2000 - View as HTML
Second, a similar process in connection with a Heavenly Man transpires on the three higher subplanes of the monadic plane. Viewed in a larger sense it takes ...
www.shamballaschool.org/StudyResources/compilations/subplanes.doc

Monadic Ray
Thus the tree symbol stands for the universe, and correspondentially for man, in whom the monadic ray kindles activity on the several planes; ...
www.experiencefestival.com/monadic_ray

   Adi-buddhi
   A selection of articles related to Adi-buddhi. ... ideation of the universe producing its ever-changing aspects on the planes of matter and objectivity; ...
   www.experiencefestival.com/adi-buddhi

SOULEDOUT.ORG GLOSSARY
There are seven planes of perception on this, the "cosmic physical" plane — physical, astral, mental, buddhic, atmic, monadic and Adi. These planes are ...
www.souledout.org/souledoutglossary.html

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/archive.php/o_t__t_17085__start_0__index.html
http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/higherplanes.html
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/archive.php/o_t__t_17085__start_0__index.html

That is one clever editing job.

I just copied and pasted it .

Unfortunatly none of you "High Magicians" seem to know what you're supposed to do with them. This is why I do not doubt the "ancient documents" were exposed as frauds.

I evoke without sigils . This does not mean that using sigils is invalid . I do know how to use them but I do not need them .

You admit that you do not know how to use them. Does this mean you A) Lack the Ability or B) Have never been to the Astral, or any Higher Realm?

No I said your nomenclature was incorrect and your that communication was incongruous and ambiguous  . I know how to use them .I have projected to the higher planes . It is not necessary to use "magick squares "to attain higher realms . The most famous authors that mapped out the realms by merely sitting  in meditative trance to project .

I don't like to throw my qualifications around, but since you question them, I was visiting the astral plane for about six years before I ever joined the Astral Pulse.
I've studied with:
A Dianic Priestess,
A Native American Medicine Man,
A Italian Strega and
A Buddhist Monk
... Among others.  
There was also two years time spent with Orthadox Jews, where I picked up Kaballah. (Which I later put right back down.)

It does not matter whom we claim to have studied with , it is our ability and our experience that demonstrates what we actually learned .

[Stillwater]

my three cents:

Quote:
Crowley was trying to open up the gates of Hell, and invoke the Devil, when neither exist. http://mythandmagick.bravehost.com/HellAndTheDevil.html

Hells exist , I have projected there with mates and these realms have been described by numerous metaphysical authors of great repute . I do not believe in the devil . But I do believe in demons and angels .

The Buddhist and general Confucian construct of the universe include "lower" planes which may be thought of as hellish, which is also how some projectors describe the more unpleasant astral locales, although none bares semblance to the peculiar notion likely invented by Christianity in the last 500 years from the old descriptions of Gehenna (an icky dump, not hell) in the bible. So "hells" seem mainly to be an astral locale.


:combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust:

:combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust::combust:

Quote:
The Arch Angels it tells you to invoke are Babylonian planetary Gods, anything El, denotes a god: Gabrie-El, (Mercury) Mikaha-El (Mars) Rafa-El (Jupiter) Uri-El (Saturn) They are called the "Watchers' because they are always watching, from the sky above.

These are not Gods . I have seen them and been taught by them . They are archangels .

The names we use (god, archangel, ghost-being, ether, great spirit, astral-thing) are not important, and I would also be careful of what I saw in the astral, as it has a tendancy of conforming to our expectations.

Quote:
The Egyptian God Amen was briefly worshiped as the "sole god" in Ancient Egypt....that's right. AMEN. Every prayer ends in "Amen."

Is this Trivial Pursuit ? This does not pertain to the thread . I am panatheistic so this does not concern me . But similar names are not Amen but Amon Ra and Amenotep .

I think a problem here is to remember that Hebrew and The Latin-Germanic family have sepperate alphabets and phonic sounds- the same going for Egyption. Now we have three families of languages involved: English- the one we are writing in; Egyptian- the name of Amon; Hebrew- Amen. This may not seem like a problem, but when you transcribe words into other languages, especially those that do not share the same sound group, then there are many words where there is not one spelling, and the pronounciation doesn't conform to patterns in the language the word is transcribed too.

For instance, in Mandarin Chinese:

The supposed author of the Dao De Jing in Pinyin translation: Laozi

The supposed author of the Dao De Jing in Wade-Giles: Laotzu

zi does not look like tzu, even if they are pronounced similarly in the romanized forms.

So Amen and Amon are basically the same word to a linguist given the three levels of removal, as a romanized e and o can have the smae sound in some cases.

For this reason, I do not think you can say they are different, but at the same time, I would need to see more evidence from Leyla that the Jews were invoking an Egyptian god in their prayers- that hasn't been sufficiently demonstrated yet.

Quote:

You admit that you do not know how to use them. Does this mean you A) Lack the Ability or B) Have never been to the Astral, or any Higher Realm?

No I said your nomenclature was incorrect and your that communication was incongruous and ambiguous . I know how to use them .I have projected to the higher planes . It is not necessary to use "magick squares "to attain higher realms . The most famous authors that mapped out the realms by merely sitting in meditative trance to project .

I am with Hagethuriel on this one. I do not see how you can make such an odd claim! "Magick Squares" being needed for a higher projection???
Perhaps this is not what you intended to say, and merely mistype (I do), but this is what your words imply!

If anyone could use the "magick squares," I'm sure it would be me. But I would have try first.
Unfortunatly none of you "High Magicians" seem to know what you're supposed to do with them. This is why I do not doubt the "ancient documents" were exposed as frauds.

You admit that you do not know how to use them. Does this mean you A) Lack the Ability or B) Have never been to the Astral, or any Higher Realm?

I do not see how you could conclude B) from the data provided.

"If anyone could use the "magick squares," I'm sure it would be me. "

And please forgive me, I mean no ill, but one must be careful about asserting pride- it never has good results. How do you know you would be the only one? This is difficult for beings with finite knowledge to say.

I get the feeling you are a teenaged boy.

I don't like to throw my qualifications around, but since you question them, I was visiting the astral plane for about six years before I ever joined the Astral Pulse.

I've studied with:
A Dianic Priestess,
A Native American Medicine Man,
A Italian Strega and
A Buddhist Monk

... Among others.

Again, it is precarious to belittle others while bolstering the self. In Chinese Classical society, and Modern Japan, the practice is to belittle the self, and bolster others.




Again, I mean no ill will to either of you, I agree with most of your points, I just think more consideration is open in some arguements, and that we must be as vigilante of our own words and conduct as that of others.

Let us continue the discussion in goodwill.

[Leyla]

Stillwater - Indeed, you have got terribly lost in the conversation!

I listed my teachers only because Hagethuriel asked.

When Alaskans complimented me on my teachers, I said:

Oh, so much flattery!     :redface:
It's not that big a deal, really.

You asked:

I do not see how you can make such an odd claim! "Magick Squares" being needed for a higher projection???

Perhaps this is not what you intended to say, and merely mistype (I do), but this is what your words imply!

I did not make this claim.

Hagethuriel believes very much in these magick squares. I, however, do not believe they are real.

I informed Hagethuriel the "ancient documents" they were based on were long ago exposed as frauds.

That is when Hagethuriel said to me:

You simply do not have the ability to use them .

That is why I responded back:

"If anyone could use the "magick squares," I'm sure it would be me. But I would have to try first. "

He made inflamitory comments such as this:

I do not believe you have gone to the higher realms from all that you have written because you show no understanding of them. If you want to be nice, I will try to teach you .

That's why I listed my teachers.

I not see why Hagerhuriel would be offended by the classes I have taken, When he claims to be the personal student of All Four Arch-Angels!

(Gabrieel Mikahael Rafael and Uriel, respectively)

Why the they have not explained to him Crowley is full of nonsense, I do not know.

[Stillwater]

Stillwater - Indeed, you have got terribly lost in the conversation!

Then if that is the case, I apologize.

Hagethuriel believes very much in these magick squares. I, however, do not believe they are real.

I think some of your posts may have been slightly ambiguously worded, but I am glad we are in agreement on this.

I not see why Hagerhuriel would be offended by the classes I have taken, When he claims to be the personal student of All Four Arch-Angels!

It is indeed sometimes hard to get bearings in the astral, and perhaps this is how he perceived his "guides". Perhaps he has been led by arch-angels, but I do agree that more explanation than that would be required to take this large claim on faith.

My peace to you both, and let us not allow minor disagreements to escalate above friendly discussion  

[Hagethuriel]

The Buddhist and general Confucian construct of the universe include "lower" planes which may be thought of as hellish, which is also how some projectors describe the more unpleasant astral locales, although none bares semblance to the peculiar notion likely invented by Christianity in the last 500 years from the old descriptions of Gehenna (an icky dump, not hell) in the bible. So "hells" seem mainly to be an astral locale.

Hell preexists Christianity and has been described by ancient cultures .

The names we use (god, archangel, ghost-being, ether, great spirit, astral-thing) are not important, and I would also be careful of what I saw in the astral, as it has a tendancy of conforming to our expectations.

Archangels are not seen in the Astral realms . The Astral is the name of the 4th Plane .

Let us continue the discussion in goodwill.

No Offense is taken and thank you .

[Novice]

Well this is the first I've gone through and read this thread.  

Leyla-
I agree that many books on magic create levels of progression and have a definate heirarchy. I also have never been big on status and labels, so much of this tends to rub me the wrong way. Of course, organized religion falls in to the same category here as well.

Now, as for signs designating the ending of the Astral plane and beginning of the next one, nope I've never seen one. But I also wouldn't expect to see one. However, I have experienced areas that are definately not the Astral or Etheric Plane. I don't particularly like the concept of levels or planes. I am more comfortable saying that I've experienced levels of consciousness that differ from what I experience in the astral and etheric planes. And they are impossible to mistake for an astral experience. So I must agree with Hagethuriel that there are other areas and they do have very distinct feels to them. Now, how many there are and what they are "supposed" to be called, I have no clue and don't claim to know. But I am certain that I haven't experienced them all by any stretch of the imagination. So its basically one big adventure to see what else is out there!

I've never heard of the boxes you are referencing, but as I mention below, I also have read only limited info on ceremonial magic. It just isn't "my thing". However, I do understand the intent on using them. And Hagethuriel has mentioned that he doesn't use them himself, so I don't know that he can answer this question for you. I believe he says he uses sigils instead. From my limited knowledge, a sigil is like a sign or symbol for a specific being/entity. I know that Bardon includes some sample sigils in his book on magical evocation. I've never tried them nor have I tried to evoke anything. To be honest, the thought of evoking anything tends to scare me. So I can't elaborate or help you out any further here.


Hagethuriel-
I've never read any of Crowley's works. I've never even read much about him. But there is something about him that makes me basically say "no thanks, I'll pass." That's not to say he is a fraud, simply that I don't feel drawn to him or his practices. Although he appears to be VERY popular with most people interested in occult and/or practicing magic, as is the Golden Dawn. But most of the popular occult authors I avoid because there's something intuitively within me that tells me to do so. Again, this is purely personal, but I'm explaining this to let you know that I am not familiar with these other author's to speak intelligently about them.


To both of you:
Bardon, Monroe and Bruce are the only author's I've seen listed in this thread whose works I know and respect. However, there are points within each one that I disagree with based on my own experiences. Some of the points are practical and others are theoretical.

And I think this comes down to the crux of the thread, although as usual I am probably over-simplifying things. When I read things, I don't pay much attention to names and places. I look for general concepts. I try and find commonalities between the text I'm reading, what else I've read that rings true to me, and what my experiences have been thus far.

I think the question is does an individual need to practice a specific set of rituals/rules in order to spiritually evolve. My experience would prove that these rituals/practices are not necessary, which I believe is the reason that Leyla began this thread. This also is not mean to imply that one is better or worse than the other. It isn't. They are simply different. Its like trying to claim one religion is better or worse than another. There is no way any can prove a claim like that. They exist as different because people are different.

I think that all of these different pracitices serve a purpose and help others. I just don't think that there is one path for all people. I think there are many paths on this planet to follow to evolve. And each one eventually leads to the same place. The task in life is to find the path that works for you; that fulfills you; and follow it until it no longer satisfies. Then you need to find out what the next step is for you.

Leyla feels constrained by the concepts of kabbalah and magic rituals. So she follows her own path. Great!

Hagethuriel has found that kabbalah and magic work for him and he is successful in what he has chosen. Again, great!

I think learning from others is wonderful. But just because something doesn't 'work' for you, doesn't necessarily mean it is fraudulent and won't work for others. Please respect each other's experiences and beliefs.

Just my 2 cents!

[Inward]

I guess it's cooling off now?

I had a few things to say, to voice the reality that I have experience, mostly to people who might one day give up, who might be turned off by teachings on realties of astral and mental realms, etc.

First, analyzing higher realms beyond the physical and astral by no means makes it a religion. As I've said before, the latest Quantum theories and Interpretations have surpassed most religions in the weirdness factor.

From what I was taught and experienced, the astral is a different realm that is ruled by different laws. For example, on the physical plane positive and negative attraction rules in a lot of areas; i.e., opposites attraction. On the astral "like unto like" is slightly stronger than opposite attraction. I use the word "slightly" because it is not consistent across the board, but overall it is slightly stronger. In some areas such as beliefs and philosophies it is ruled by like unto like. As far as intimate relationships, if you'll have any, then the law of attraction is still stronger. Due to this law of like unto like, deceased astral people end up in a group/local of similar people. Astral locals are created by groups of beings. When all the people of that local eventually leave (no longer needing it) then the local continues to exists, but fades over time. The leaves on trees and plants begin to lose their color and eventually die. Then the buildings and everything wither away and eventually there is nothing left to see.

Are there astral hells? Any advanced projector should know there is. Sorry for anyone who does not want such things to be, but so long as there are murderers and evil there will always be astral hells. Thankfully there are also astral heavens.

What's above the astral? As Hagethuriel said, above the astral are the mental realms. This is the home of the Soul, that is the higher mental realms.

Is this all a religion? You know, there's a thing that when you look at something totally different than what you were taught and brought up, then it looks kind of iffy and weird. From viewing something from such a far distance it seems so obvious that it's wrong. Yet as many people know, when you begin to really dig into a topic open-mindedly and familiarize yourself with it, then all the darkness disappears. After a while, for those very persistent folks, they begin to see how all the puzzle pieces go together. I apologize that modern society has programmed into most people into being repelled by hardcore scientific spiritual truths. It is not a religion. I would wish that everyone kept working on obtaining hardcore scientific personal proof. It is obtainable.

What if one day after years and years of projection practice you were able to project to distant places on Earth and then later verify these places, objects, etc. in the physical body? At first it might take 100 attempts to get it right. If you wanted to be a runner in physical then you are not going to run a marathon anytime soon. It takes time and effort. What if one day you wanted to verify the astral realms? So you projected to an astral local with the intensions of searching for an advanced astral projector such as yourself. What if you and this other person exchanged information in the astral local, then you and the other projector contacted each other on Earth in the physical bodies to verify that astral local? What if you repeated this experiment on an even higher realm such as the lower mental realm?

It's my wish that everyone discover these truths on their own accord, with the aid of their helpers of course. It is close to meaningless for me to tell you that I know for certain other people have achieved these experiments other than it gives encouragement to some of you. Nobody is here to hand you person proof, and for very good reasons. Just don't give up hope, keep treading the path. Really that is all that I am here for. It is a pity, a spiritual crime that so many have abused spirituality by selling their so-called gifts and taking peoples money!!! One thing I will tell you for certain, RUN THE OTHER WAY if someone is asking for your money for anything related to metaphysics or spirituality! Although there are some really nice folks who ask for donations, just be careful. You have plenty of helpers in the astral unbeknownst to most people. If or when you can appreciably benefit from a true teacher in a physical body, then it will happen.

In short, just continue on the good path, be open-minded, listen, research, and accept the very good possibility that the universe is far weirder than you and I could ever imagine.

just my 0.02
Inward

[Inward]

Just my 2 cents!

just my 0.02

LOL, hehehe, we're big spenders.

Inward

[Hagethuriel]

Stillwater - Indeed, you have got terribly lost in the conversation!.

I don't think you are lost at all Stillwater .

I listed my teachers only because Hagethuriel asked.

Actually I never asked you who your teachers were and you never really substantiated it either . I did ask  this but you did not reply ;
"I do not believe you have gone to the higher realms from all that you have written because you show no understanding of them . But perhaps I am wrong what have you seen there ? And who did you meet ? "

Perhaps this is not what you intended to say, and merely mistype (I do), but this is what your words imply!

I did not make this claim.

Actually Stillwater is right you did imply that .

Hagethuriel believes very much in these magick squares.

I do not believe in magick squares and I do not what you are on about  and when I asked you what you were on about you never replied .
So please tell us what a magic square is ?

I, however, do not believe they are real.

I informed Hagethuriel the "ancient documents" they were based on were long ago exposed as frauds.

That is when Hagethuriel said to me:

You simply do not have the ability to use them .

This quote is out of context
That is why I responded back:

"If anyone could use the "magick squares," I'm sure it would be me. But I would have to try first. "

It would help Leyla if you woul learn to spell , quote the text and reply to the questions asked . Thanks Stillwater for your reply .

[Stillwater]

Hagethuriel:

Hagethuriel believes very much in these magick squares.

I do not believe in magick squares and I do not what you are on about and when I asked you what you were on about you never replied .
So please tell us what a magic square is ?

I am not really sure myself, lol, for as another said, ritual is not really my thing either, but from the references I have perused I gather they are some sort of grid listing planet names and relating them to deity names, possibly from the fertile crescent era of civilization. How they are meant to work is anyone's guess, unless Leyla has better knowledge (she seems as though she may).


Okay- I see what I would deem to be errors accross the board in many posts, and I am sure everyone else here can find some fault in anyone else's post. That mostly stems from differences in experience and compound mis-understandings that are spreading like wildfire in this thread, lol.


I personally recall an occassion on which I discussed an issue back and forth for 20 posts, only to find that we all actually believed the same thing!

That was one mis-understanding; there seem to be about 20 swirling around in this thread, lol. I think we must all realize there are grounds on which we agree, and there are those on which we disagree, and it would be hard to change the opinion of either side easily. At least we cannot do it like this, lol.

There are also likely too many issues in the air right now for everyone to be on the same page, much less agree, so I think if this thread is to go anywhere, we need to discuss one thing at time, if that is possible.

Sorry to all those dressed for war, or those those I have offended/confused with my own ranting, lol.

But that is just my .0002 cents  

[Inward]

But that is just my .0002 cents  

Can you spare a dime, lol.  Just kidding.

[Hagethuriel]

Good idea Stillwater ,
I am not really level with Enochian . I have read James Hurtak's Book of Enoch Keys of Knowledge and some of John Dee's works .But I am enthused with Kaballah , Hermetic Magick and Alchemy . I would like to have an understanding .

Who on this site has background and experience in these occult arts ?

Here is my bio I would like to find mentors and peers .

Hermetic Magick
I have completed the 10 step path of the Hermetic Magician . I have studied IIH by Bardon and my own metaphysical research to do this .

Alchemy
I am a philosophical alchemist . I have studied Crowley on Thoth , Isaac Newton and Jacob Boehme. I learned from Thoth about the Emerald Tablet and completed that . I am working on fire and water works now on the Y axis .  

Kaballah
I am struggling on a mystic pathway through the Kaballah . I go to Occult Forum and read Exodus . I evoke archangels and in mystic vision learn about this pathway .

High Magick
I evoke angels and spirit teachers , I have used sigils , I do not usually use them though . I open in LBRP . I raise energy and evoke by will . This is like a polite invitation or request . I am a clairvoyant and clairaudient mystic . I follow the teachers to the realms and learn from them .

Projection
I project in a variety of methods and to realms by will

purple/green GA /HS
purple cosmic overself
blue GA
green mental body
yellow HS
orange LS
red etheric OBE
--------------------golden heart of mystic on mirror
red /orange GD/ LS


I see the realms as much more than astral . I look at the mapping according to Bardon and Monroe whom I have studied;
partial listing
9 ashrams of RHP / LHP
8 outer space
7 logoic shamballah
-----------------------
6 mahatmic golden
5 monadic  akashic
4 astral air
etheric
3 earth  water
RTZ
2 totem earth
1 hell    fire
0 magick realm

I would like to meet mystics who have also gone to higher planes . To meet alchemists and hermetic magicians online .