Evolutionary Theory

[MJ-12]

bn

[James S]

Creationists can't accept that there is something that their respective God perhaps didn't do, and Evolutionists can't accept that any kind of God was involved at all.

AS LJ57 briefly touched on with the mathematics involved, once the concept of fractals was brought into the picture there was more & more evidence to suggest that nature wasn't just a series of random events, it was designed.

I've always believed that the answer lies somewhere in the middle of both camps. God, whatever your definition, created the physical world - the Big Bang. But God didn't individually make every little speck of dirt or every little gene sequence. He created the universe to evolve, to look after itself and grow, possibly according to a set of parameters.

James.

[astralspinner]

A good site for anyone with an interest in evolution is http://www.talkorigins.org/

It's actually archives from the talk.origins newsgroup, which is also a place worth posting any major questions you may have.

One trend you may notice from the archives is the large number of "evolution is rubbish and I can prove it" people who have it very quickly pointed out that the problem is their own understanding of evolution, rather than evolution itself...

[Fat_Turkey]

Heh well I don't know what to believe. I believe in the higher power, or The Source, but I don't believe that any religion is wholly right about it and I don't really think that we have to worship it in such a strict manner.

Evolution and God don't really seem to mix, unless you sort of formulate an entirely new theory. I'd rather not know the answer right now, it's all too confusing.

Later
-FT

[filipcza]

This whole fight between creationists and evolutionists is..well..sad.

One says that God created everything and evolutionary thinking is
from Satan, because it negates the existence of God or at least it is not the word of Bible(which in their minds is absolute truth).

The other states that scientific research has shown that this is the way species have come to be, and this God thing is naive thingking from dark ages when we didn't know better. (And at the same time their theories are full of holes, which they don't even want to acknowledge)

Evolution and God...why can't there be both?

If you believe that you are a soul, and your purpose is to learn and reach higher, let's say towards God, then that's evolution in my book. One could say that the whole purpose of existence is evolution.

Of course you guys meant the beginnings of life here on earth..well I believe that there is always evolution involved to some extend, but originally life was planted here and helped along with genetic engineering from time to time(You know those evolutionary jumps that scientists talk about). This would explain how there can be so "evolved" creatures here even though the time frame is so narrow.

So where is God?

Everywhere!

On this question we come down to the definition of God. If God is to you a bearded man sitting on a cloud watching us, then maybe it seems as though he is not doing much. But if God is everything then everything that happens is of God.

In my opinion He created, or became, the universe which houses billions of Galaxies, which house billions of planets, which house billions of souls(and this is only the 3d-universe, there are likely to be much more levels of existence out there). Then there are certain laws which operate here, one set of them is called laws of physics, and maybe evolution is in that set.

So where does this all come down to?

Conclusion: God created evolution.

[astralspinner]

A growing number of people are now actually at the "Evolution did happen, but was guided by God" stage - the fundamentalists on both sides are dwindling.
And most scientists don't actually deny the validity of this point of view.
What they DO deny is the argument that evolution HAD to be guided, and that it couldn't have happened without that guidance.
It's a fine line, but the scientist's view is that the process of evolution doesn't need a God to have helped it. That doesn't mean He didn't, just that it hasn't been proved that He did.
Incidentally, most of the great evolutionary leaps where new species came out of nowhere happened as a result of extinction and/or natural catastrophes - ice ages, meteor impacts, etc.
When a species or group of species is wiped out, all the resources they previously consumed are suddenly available to everybody else. Instant population explosion, lots of new individuals, and so lots of variations induced.
Then, the numbers catch up with the available food, and competition starts all over again. Having even a slight advantage can be enough to ensure your survival.
That's why evolution trundles along slowly for millennia, and then suddenly explodes into massive variation. Extinction shouldn't be viewed as an entirely bad thing - it's the biggest driving force behind the evolution of new species.
We wouldn't be here today if life hadn't been nearly wiped out on many occasions. We'd still be at the jellfish stage.

[What Tha Phak]

EVOLUTION = ADAPTION

I personally lean in the direction that there are both some sort of GOD, universal force, and, within it, the mechanics of evolution.  It would be impractical to perceive our (Earth's, man's) creation as sudden and instant.  I think the more logical way of looking at who we are, and where we came from is considering that we all evolved (adapted to our surroundings through natural selection) from a lesser, simple, or more primitive versions of what we are now.  (I can see no flaw in Darwin's theories, can anyone else?)

Take a look at dinosours and birds, recently, scientists now universally came to the conclusion that birds actually evolved from dinosours (the raptor-like ones, e.g. T-Rex, raptors..).  They looked at everything from the bone structure similarities, movement characteristics, down to the way they were able to run.  Now, most museums say they even feel obligated to re-make their dino models, and construct them... with feathers!  Back even before the dinosours existed, scientists say the planet was dominated by aquamarine-life and amphibians, inhabiting only the waters and the humid, marshy, swampy regions of the world.  Slowly, these amphibians (just take a look at what frogs can do) began to crawl more and more onto land and began adapting to its climate.  Generations and generations later, the ones on land have adpated so much that their physical characteristics, especially their skin, have dried out and developed more dry, scale-like skin.  These creatures have adapted to the new surroundings to the point where they are no longer even considered the same classification of species that their predeccesors used to be.  This illistrates a theory of how and where the dinosours originated from.  Life is more easily sustained in the water.  Take a look at philangy (spelled right?), you know those little independent life organisms that float in the sea, which is what whales eat.  Life like that cannot originate on dry land--sure micro-organisms can live in a biger organisms, but they need a host to survive and live off of.  I believe billions and billions of years ago, the most simple, single celled organisms existed in the vast waters.  Adaption began to slowly take place and multi-celled life started to sprout, then complex creatures began evolving from them, then comes the land creatures, you can then piece it togethor my point, yourself...

Some give these theories of "water-monkeys," or "aqua-apes."  I'm still reading up on the details...

Has anyone ever tried contemplating how our planet was created?  There is this theory where the earth started out in processes similar to that of creaction of a pearl.  The Earth as an infant was but a mere crystal--slowly it began attracting life force and channeling energy.  It's hard to remember the details, but the whole diea seemed very feasible.  You can read about this in the book, Anti-Gravity & The World Grid, by David Hatcher Childress, a great book might I add that I would recommend to everybody.

But that still doen't explain the sudden bang in intelligence and culture of humans over the past 15,000 years (+25,000 years if you believe in Atlantis).  Did we simply reach a greater threshold of intelligence through our brain's evolution, or was there something else, something that is widely blown off as moot, something that has helped push our species to this new level...?

Has anyone ever seen the movie 2001: A Space Oddessy?  A boring, but great movie.  It's morals and ideas have inspired and questioned myself a lot.  At the begining of the movie, it says: Dawn of Man in a text and behind it a beautiful scenery of a sunrise horizon.  The scene depicts a tribe of primates living and surviving in a chaotic world.  They are scavenging for scraps of food and living only from help of one another.  A sabertooth tiger of some sort attacks the tribe and kills off one of the apes.  They flee and move on--there is nothing they can do.  The apes are intelligent enough to socialize, groom, and play with each other. The next morning, with the sun and moon seeming parallel with each other, appears a huge monolith, radiating a strange sound, a sound that seems to me to conatin every single note.  The apes are going crazy out of confusion--they have never seen such a thing.  The apes seem affected--they walk more upight, they actually realize the use of a bone and use it as a tool.  Something has definately changed in the dynamics of these creatures, they seem more able.  Some sort of higher force/intelligence gave these primates a gift.

Does anyone support the theory that E.T.'s came down to Earth over 25,000 years ago and cloned their genes into a a form of primates, thus man came about?  I believe this, but demand further facts and discoveries.  Anyone ever listen to that Rael guy talk about aliens and stuff (the guy involved with that supposed cloned baby and the company, "Clonaid")?

One thing is for sure: once the infamous Hall of Records is unearthed, it would supply a lot of evidence and documents stating knowledge and history that even predates the pre-dynasty era of ancient Egypt.  It may even provide information about the truth of Atlantis, the Sphinx, and even Alien life.  This would be the discovery of the lifetime.

P.S. If you have never seen 2001: A Space Odessey, you might wanna check out this summery to fully understand the movie []
http://www.carleton.edu/curricular/MEDA/classes/media110/Berdie/mypaper.html

[Jenadots]

Part of the great debate seems to ask:  Are we fallen angels or risen apes?  Which would you rather be?  

I personally do not see any contradiction between the theories of evolution and the idea of a creative soul-life spark from God, however you define that which created the ooze that led to us and will lead to all the future persons.  I can see the similiarities between humans and other mammals, but where does the consciousness come from?  Is it something we had millions of years ago?  Or is it something that we evolved as a survival mechanism?  

A physical form is simply that.  When a person dies, we know that person is no longer there, in the body.  I think the biological processes that house the consciousness may be affected by that consciousness.  Does anyone know if we, as a species, appear to be evolving?  There is so much we don't know about the evolution of our inner selves and how that might effect the actual biological base from which we all stem.  What might humans be like in a million years more?  

Something gave us that spark of life and intelligence that separated us from the biological animals from which we sprang.  

As for me, I would rather be a risen ape than a fallen angel.  But I am probably a bit of both. []

[TheSeeker]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents.  I think that a big failing is thinking that human beings can comprehend everything.  I think your ability for comprehension is improved dramatically while in the astral, and you might figure a bit more out there.

Also, if god is all powerful, why could he not create life and give it the ability to evolve/adapt.  

There is a good book online that sort of has to deal with this topic (thanks sweet_celestial_sounds for showing it to me).  This story explains a great deal about our past, and whether or not you believe it, it's a great read.

http://bioresonant.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/tp/ulog.html

[no_leaf_clover]

if thats the kind of stuff youre interested in, look up some books by this guy...

Zecharia Sitchin

The 12th Planet is his first and sort of introductory book. basically, he's using irreputable evidence to show how we are hybrids of early humans and a race of super-advanced, very spiritual beings. he also ties in his theories on how major religions spawned from their influence on mankind.

it may sound like a bunch of bull, but this guy uses so many ancient mesopotomian sources as well as more modern and well-known facts to help prove his ideas that anybody that wants to call him out would be out of luck, or else made to look a fool, and he posts the public criticism he gets on his website as well as his replies to the people that critiqued him. he uses references from the Bible that were previously misunderstood and confusing, sumerian texts, assyrian texts, greek mythology, astronomy, lots of common sense, and some deep thinking on his own part based on his 30 years of research that led into that first book..

i highly recommend his work.

[monicat777]

Creationist vs. Evolutionist-Did anyone see Penn & Tellers bovine excrement episode regarding this very topic??? It was great.

[What Tha Phak]

Did one of the two seem to 'out-do' to other in terms of believable evidence?  There has got to be only one truth.

[Spirit_Gurl]

i believe that by chance, a chemical reaction occured, making a single celled life form. after hat, god noticed, thought of the possibiblities, and helped it grow. viola

[Nick]

I think The Seeker makes some good points. We can say we believe this or that theory but we'll never really know for sure, at least while we're in the physical.

[LJ57]

After reading the thread about the BCC documentary I'm curious to know what people's thought about evolution are. I know Francis Crick, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and other evolutionists have tried to use evolution to promote atheism and disprove ideas like soul, mysticism,etc. Although once an evolutionsist and atheist, I no longer believe in evolutionary theory. The mathematical impossibility, the anthropic principle, and the like have led me to believe that the world is not the result of random chance or a "blind watchmaker" as dawkins likes to call it. On the other hand I don't believe in religious explanations either. Just curious to know what others think about all this?