OBE doesn't prove life after death

[Frank]

You see many "dead" people on the Astral planes. The place is chock full of them.

Your "beliefs" when you die (and to an extent the cause of your death) primarily determine whereabouts on the Astral you end up. On the lower planes, there are many "lost souls" wandering around not realising they are dead. Many of them have been involved in wars, nasty accidents, etc., and are still writhing around with body parts having been blown off and so forth.  

As you quite rightly point out, "A balance of perspective must be maintained in order to preserve reasonable logic and truth". Once you can project to the Astral proper, you will be able to see all of it for yourself. Thus look at the matter from a balanced perspective.

Also, when you say, "Maybe the "spirit" or consciousness needs the body to power it, like a battery... body dies, so does consciousness." Please understand that it is, in fact, the other way around.

Yours,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings Donni!

I would point you in the direction of the excellent 225 page E-Book on this matter entitled "A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife", available here:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/file_library.asp?showmethefile=3&thatcat=14&thiscat=Adobe+%2EPDF

As with all things, one has to weigh up all available evidence, and personal experience, in arriving at a conclusion.

The author, Victor Zammit, is from down your way too http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

With best regards,

Adrian.

[michael]

Donni....at a certain level you are quite correct that OBE doesnt prove life after death..those of us whohave OBe'd can only say that our consciousness has projected out of the pysical body....this might cease at death..but this would be at the same epistomological level as me saying that i cannot prove that this computer really exists or in fact that anything exists..ie.this computer..my house..the world and its auntie could merely be projections of "me"..this is the solipistic argument..ie the universe is "only me"..clearly absurd....but anyone is entitled to hold that belief....

[Usiimers]

One easy way to prove this to yourself is to try and meet a recently deceased loved one.  You could argue that this is merely a concoction of the mind, but once you do meet them, you'll know the truth.  The first step to proving anything to anyone is to experiment and see for yourself.  
Good luck!
-Usiim(ers)

[Grenade01]

Hmm very interesting thread!


I hope when I die I dont go neccisarily where I "expect" to go.  I want to experience things without the illusion of my expectations changing everything.  To maybe be able to manipulate and travel through the astral into many dimensions, and into other peoples after death realities.

What I really wonder (now this is something to think about) is ...
Well most often it seems that people think we are multi dimensional creatures right?
So we not only exist right now here..but also the realtime / astral / ect....
Only we have to shift more energy and our thought process to the other dimensional body...
(Im sure many of you have heard this..and I think its actually something robert bruce talked about in his book..i really need to reread it)
So yeah..my question is...when our physical body is dead... on what other dimensions do we loose access to.

Obviously it seems like the realtime...because if we were still able to shift energy there, we would be able to see dead people really easy with astral sight.  hmm where else are we loosing access to?

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/You must try some of my purple berries.
I've been eating them for 6 or 7 weeks now, haven't got sick once.
Prolly keep us both alive.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

[Grenade01]

My question really goes beyond this in my head...
Im just having trouble putting into words what Im .... visualizing....err..thinking

But
I think maybe you can see where I'm going?

I wonder how many dimensions there are that no one has been to yet..
and if we gain access to dimensions after we die, that we dont have now
or can we go anywhere now since we are a soul with benifits (ie a body in the physical)

all so confusing...


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/You must try some of my purple berries.
I've been eating them for 6 or 7 weeks now, haven't got sick once.
Prolly keep us both alive.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

[Kristen]

Hi Donni -

Well... um...

The only things that I know or, have experienced, is that my dead father visited me - and also, that I've met with my higher self and/or an angel. (so much I don't understand) - but  I believe myself - and I believe Robert.  Also - I have felt presences... what it was, from whom or what  - I can only guess.  And, there is a real phenomenon that can be experimented with successfully in my experience - really simple too - bibliomancy is like hooking into a buffer of as of yet unmorphosed potentials (nearsighted perhaps but fascinating) and oobe and visions..... pieces of beyond mundane secular.

I don't know if physicality ONLY contains consciousnesses or makes it possible or whatever.... but, if we were to argue that that premise were true, then what "contains" those things I spoke of above - limited as my occult expereince is - its real.  I'm a conscious being - that which is beyond my conscious boundaries - is that conscious too?

I'm a cynical scientific pendantic critic.  I'm the perfect naysayer.  I asked for proof and got something that satisfies me.  So.  Is my subconscious mind a phenominal trickster?  Or, is there something beyond me which is speaking to me that is part of me or not?

Faith..... (?)


KB

[richk01]

xxx

[Ashfo]

AP doesnt prove life after death unless you look at it in a certain perspective.

The OBE hasnt been proved, but those who have had it know it is not simply an internal mind trip. Either something leaves the body or you are able to use powers that you otherwise couldnt (clairvoyance, telepathy etc). If something leaves the body it is fair to assume there is an etheric part of the body - which suggests life after death.

If an OBE is simply an internal mind which allows you to awaken hidden abilities then the proof is less strong.. Except to say that if such things can happen, what else is there that we dont know of?

I myself personally believe something leaves the body. I have only ever had a drug induced OBE but the reports I have read of materializations (someone seeing an etheric looking figure of someone they either do or dont know) is too convincing due to complimentary reports from people who had no knowledge of each other.

I agree its nice and comforting to think that it proves life after death, but I believe it you look at the proof it does suggest life after death.

- Ashfo

[Spiritlodge]

While OOBE by itself may not prove life after death, it certainly makes up one very compelling piece of evidence that aims in that direction.  People and cultures throughout history have described similar experiences and subtle realms, similar cause and effect relationships, etc. with regard to this topic.  And, when one looks closer, the aspects of OOBE mesh with other "occult" phenomena quite cohesively (past lives and Karma, near death experiences).  I guess what I'm trying to say is that this phenomenon is like the DNA evidence in the O.J. Simpson trial.  You certainly may not conclude that life exists after death, but it strongly points in that direction.

[weagle]

we do live after we leave our body, I got the rare opportunity of the reverse happening instead of trying to visit the deceased the deceased came and visit me (only God would allow this to happen this is rare).  My grandmother passed away and a week afterwards at the same hour/same time she came to visit my mother in her sleep, she saw a slamming door and then got afraid and woke up and had partial paralysis.  I think she gave up on my mom and went to me immediately after. The same thing I had in my dream about the slamming door but this time I knew what to do I saw stories about ghosts so I said why not get a tape recorder so I wasted time in my dream finding one then I went to the door and then spoke to it then intuively I knew it was grandmom and she spoke in her language (not english), I could of said I'm listening or something didn't know that I wasted a lot of time but anyways I was the one asking her questions like how is it over there she replied to me saying it's always summer here and oh geez I would of asked her a million questions but I was waking up and saw myself partial paralyzed and talking in my sleep and she even knew that I was waking up too so she immediately spoke to me about a private matter what to do while I was waking up forcefully (body was being depleted of energy).  I can prove to you atleast you will live atleast 7days after you die, I think you do live forever though if my grandmom did it.  Exactly how Robert Bruce put it in astral dynamics that the departed maybe aided by angels to communicate with the living, that is exactly what happened to me.

[Mankind]

Hmm. Well Donni, it seems as if people are starting to wake up to the fact that this world is NOT all there is and that their concsiousness is, indeed, immortal.  Deal with it!

[Donni_Joy]

Well ... well ... well... three holes in the ground.

I have had experiences with ghosts, astral entities and yes, I have even had OBE's myself. I have had some pretty wierd things happening in my life at times, some harmless and even amusing, some downright terrifying. Things that are not explained, as far as I know, by medical science.

SO... I have had all these experiences. I have had encounters with deceased loved ones. I have not read the link you posted yet Adrian (oops) but I still say that the role of metamorphic fields and the akashic records (energy patterns that can be accessed like records -- rings on the tree of time is an analogy) -- these things have not been considered as seriously as the more attractive option that OBE and spiritual encounters PEROVE the existence of individual identity/soul after death.

I have had low level fully conscious OBE's in my house (an example) and I know my mind was in another location, it SEEMED that way..... BUT.... take chemicals and your mind sees things that aren't there (LSD as an example, and LSD flashbacks)....(I wasn't on drugs, never taken LSD just making point mind altering occurs many ways, include exercise, tiredness, illness,  etc)  I also read somewhere that people short on oxygen have OBE's and see the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.... and again, those incredible metamorphic fileds that carry echoes of the past....

I really think metamorphic fields -- ley lines -- may be quite a siginifcant force... maybe even a possible alternative to "life after death"... tis all.

OK I better read that article, Adrian

Cheers
Donni

[astralc]

Donni_Joy

I like Michael's post, maybe all that we will ever have is experience.

We believe that we exist for the experience we have of it, those who OOB have their experience as well. Thus how do you 'prove' either exists without an outside reference point?

Maybe we just have to believe our own experience and leave the arguments that arise to the lawyers, politicians and philosophers, the eggheads who have a vested interest in argument.

In short, I don't care, I just know what I know and have 'been there and done that' and now I just talk to those who want to listen. As Jesus said, 'don't cast your pearls before swine', they just don't appreciate it.

Astralc

www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."

[Donni_Joy]

Say G'day....

I have been pondering this one... and a post in another forum stating that being able to project proves life after death... prompted me to post.

I don't believe OBE proves life after death or even that consciousness can exist after the physical body has died. Maybe the "spirit" or consciousness needs the body to power it, like a battery... body dies, so does consciousness.

We can OBE and RV and travel to other locations and prove their existence... confirm the journey so to speak.... but one may be tuning into metamorphic fields, ley lines, etc. These things do not prove consciousness exists beyond death. We may see loved ones that have passed on, had incredible experiences with them (ie they come through in a psychic reading).... but maybe it is just that our thoughts and consciousness (= energy) feeds a part of their "soul" for them to come through... when their memory goes they are gone.

Whatchafinkeh?

Donni

Am I making sense?

"A balance of perspective must be maintained in order to preserve reasonable logic and truth." Robert the Brute, 2002