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Okay- Not to sidetrack, but to deal with a recurring question and which may shed a little light on current experiences.

There has long been a debate about whether or not we are, in some semi-physical, energetic fashion, leaving our physical bodies when we have an out-of-body experience...or not...

I can only speak from my own experience, as well from what I have read, over some fifty-plus years. And that answer is a qualified yes. I remain open to new information, but my experience and learning says- yes. I think a key difference to the question is a person's experience, which, of course, is fundamental to any discussion or debate. If you haven't had the experience of more than one type of OBE, then you are understandably confined to exploring and considering that one type of experience. I personally think there are several, if not, many types of OBEs.

We must each come up with some type of description or classification in order to differentiate between them. My first classification system was the Castaneda model which was basically the physical versus the dreaming body. That made sense and sufficed for some years, but then I read of the Theosophical system which delineated the etheric, astral, mental, causal, buddhic and beyond energetic bodies...a theoretical stretch for me at the time, but over the years, I have found some confirmation along these lines. Slowly, over years, I have learned to see definite differences within each of these states.

When I first began projecting, it was unconscious and uncontrolled. I was 4 or 5 and one night, I climbed out of bed and felt completely refreshed and ready to play. I went to my closed bedroom door and grabbed for the doorknob. My hand passed through it. A little strange, I thought, but then just walked through the door, remarking at the texture of the wood as I passed through the material. I walked through the door of my older brother's room, still without realizing the fuller context of my situation...hey, I was like five! Our German Shepard dog was sleeping alongside my brother's bed and looked up at me in a surprised way as I called to my brother to wake up and go outside to play. He resisted and shuffled the bedding and finally spoke to me to leave him alone as he was sleeping. At this moment, I realized something was strange: I don't think he actually spoke, it was a mental response. I tried to rouse him a few times and then gave up, turning to the window and flying out, where I lost memory.

This experience was followed by years of flying dreams, where I found myself already 'out'...I'm not sure what that means...was I in my etheric body or my astral or something else? Looking back, I realize this was a form of lesson, or training. I was learning to fly and to place Intent. Other lessons occurred such as the spinning plate tests over several days that Szaxx confirmed and the Life Raft Retrieval experience that Nameless also had...none of this was confirmed until fifty years later...

I think that it becomes apparent that we all have either slightly different or even widely divergent experiences, especially concerning our introduction, or lol, our re-introduction to the Non-Physical...so that creates some understandable disagreements...

Later in my life, when I again took up the learning of the art of astral projection, I pursued the etheric or RTZ exit...that was the most reasonable idea that followed on from my reading from thirty years earlier. So, did some front-loading occur, or some initial expectations get brought onboard? Okay, I was open to that for quite awhile. But I cannot discount the details of the experiences. I meditated and tried to get ever deeper, with no success...I bumped into vibrations many times, which often scared the crap out of me due to their intensity...but I couldn't manufacture an exit. I grunted and groaned for hours, trying different ideas. The times it did work were very natural in their nature. It was after hours of sleep, when I could find that peculiar, magical moment or window of opportunity where I was sufficiently rested and relaxed. WBTB, was one technique; another was quite by accident (which seems to be the norm) when I had a night of difficult gastric pain and finally set my bed pillows up so that I was sitting up, and finally drifted into a fitful sleep around 4am..and had a wonderful tour of etheric exits and phasings that lasted hours.

Through a variety of these experiences, in some, I definitely was aware of literally lifting out of my body, in a ghost-like fashion, and roaming around my house, like a deep-sea diver stumbling around the seafloor...learning my new senses, trying to figure out how to move...and I could never move past my front door, often not even my bedroom door. Confirmed by the literature, this seems to be the limits of the etheric body. Only a few people report going further than their house, and that may indicate that they have actually shifted into another, or their astral body...I don't know except to say I always lost consciousness beyond a certain physical? distance. This etheric or RTZ OBE was and is very noticeably different from what I consider the next or higher form of OBE- the astral.

The astral is a noticeably cleaner and 'lighter' kind of OBE. The etheric is usually monotone- grays or greenish or sepia tones, there is a heaviness or density to it...the astral is much lighter and full color. If there is a lower astral versus higher astral, then the color goes from full color to full Technicolor, so that is another indication of what may be levels or degrees. Now, you encounter people, at first just obvious characters, but later real individuals. A certain decorum is expected. With the etheric OBE, there is a definite disconnection from the physical. Energy work can help with this. Focusing on certain chakras can help, moving from the root to the sacral then higher. This definitely seems to be the early disassociation method for many people. But it naturally evolves over time...that is my main point...and it eventually leads to Phasing...Phasing can be so simple, at the right time, of just switching focus...

An additional context is that it can take me three days at The Monroe Institute, where I get, what feels like nothing, and then boom! the fourth day, all this experience begins downloading and I have multiple experiences...it is unpredictable and yet, magical...
I guess that my second (or third or fourth) introduction to the NP came about 2011 and later when I posted my Fieldtrip experience here on the Pulse and started getting some really helpful contextual advice from Lumaza, Szaxx and some others.

Phasing? In the proper context and moment, you just naturally 'switch' from here to there, wherever 'there' is. Sometimes it's where you intend to go; other times, it's where 'they' intend you to go.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
                                                          -O. Wilde


The multiverse is full of paradoxes that we will never understand while in character. We move outside of the physical body and we don't at the same time. Time and matter are both real and illusions. We are ONE mind as well as infinite separate characters simultaneously. Everything exists now and at the same time we perceive it as linear.

Why restricting ourselves with ONE specific belief about what we are and how the multiverse works. I have experienced so many diverse APs, from flying, moving, tasting food, touching snow, perceiving myself as a god, angel, guide, superhero, other characters. Being in Narnia, space, communicating with so many entities, ETs, having the pleasure just to lay on a beach under palm trees. Why restricting ourselves being just a point of consciousness floating out there. We have eternity and infinity to explore everything and anything we desire, to go from one adventure to another as many forms and characters, to see the entire multiverse with all its glory. Infinite so-called non-physical worlds created by spirits with forms, colors, societies. Spirits can take on different forms in the NP to enrich their experiences, interact, keep learning, etc. Learning is not just for the physical worlds. Interactions and being in characters is not just for the physical worlds.
Connecting with ALL THAT IS was one of the greatest things I have experienced, merged with all, but how long can you be at that state. You want to explore more and more, because knowledge is infinite. I have opened my mind to the infinite possibilities and it has changed my life not only during my AP explorations but here in this speck of life of mine.


Hi tides2dust

We are all, in the astral visible to others as "points of consciousness" whilst travelling, through the blackness. Little pinpricks of light

"Awareness" is our ability to place our attention on specific things within the myriad of things our senses have discerned. Effectively, we see a wealth of detail in in the visual mindscape in front of our eyes as we travel. We make a conscious decision to "follow that light". In doing that, we pay attention on that light rather than on any other thing, and it is on THAT light that our awareness (or point of conscious focus)

I see awareness as our ability to single out specific points to interest that we want to pay extra attention to.
If I daydream in the astral, I'm not paying attention, so I'm not aware of anything specific,  I'm just generally aware of the vastness of the field of consciousness. If I pay attention to one specific thing, then I now have awareness of mostly that one thing and not the vast field.

It's all pretty academic isn't it! BTW, no-one is well versed in how the non-physical works, really. For that matter, few are versed in how our physical reality works either 😀 Our non-physical experiences will all be different, all are equally valid and equally valuable for us, both individually and collectively, to learn from. Whatever our expectations are shapes our individual journeys. It is through sharing that we each inch towards a better understanding of what is truely the "last frontier"



Hi there, EscapeVelocity

One of the issues that will "muddy the water"for many years is the absence of a language that we can all agree on in the context of all things to do with the non-physical - unless we're careful, we end up confusing each other simply. For example, "out of body" means something to those who expect to travel with an energy body, but I have never experienced to date anything other than the mid to deep astral and, as I said in another post, I'd be horrified if arms and legs came along for the ride.

I suspect that the character of our expectations, our intentions vastly shape what travels. My intention is simply to find the answer to the "there's got to be more to life than this" observation which interrupted my walk to work nearly 20 years ago. To find that answer I need explore the dimensions of life, "the system of life", how it all works. Others may have a more personal expectation: to visit someone who died. Both of those expectations are equally valid, both will result in different kinds of voyager

I also suspect that our intentions are subject to scrutiny from a higher authority. The universe is not simply a playground for the voyeur - although there is certainly a lot to be enthralled by, and we should all get joy from our explorations. But we won't always get what we want to get, simply because we're not yet ready to receive it. We travel to evolve, both as individuals and as a community. If, through our travels we can help blunt the fears and divisiveness that seems way too widespread, then that's not a bad lifetime's work, is it?

I loved your comments. There is strength in diversity when there is strength within individuals. Your determination to succeed is inspiring to me. Thank you

Oh, and phasing. Munroe eventually got that process down to a simple expression of intent. "Wherever my intent goes, so do I."



Hi Lightbeam

There is not one word or expression in your post that is not personally inspirational. Thank you for sharing. You make a vital point when you ask "why restrict ourselves" to a narrow belief when we're in the midst of a mind expanding experience that works in ways too mysterious and wonderful for us to even begin to understand even slightly. We should vow to travel with a "No preconceived beliefs" attitude and be open to whatever experience the universe decides to give us. We should remind ourselves often to be grateful for the experience of every journey. There is so much to learn

An deeply rooted evolutionary imperative we have deep in our subconscious is the need to survive. This manifests in too many being too fearful of too many things to feel both vulnerable yet confident enough to open up to all the wonderful opportunities that AP gives us. Everyone faces fear and any traveling in the non-physical can be, at least initially, fear-inducing. I suspect, Lightbeam that you have mastered those fears you once had, and travel with a light and open touch. That, in turn can only positively impact upon others you encounter as you move about both the non-physical and physical worlds.

Thank you again,



Thank you EV and Kupe for your replies.

EV I want to also add personal experience and confirmation that

1) I believe the awareness is residing outside the body. When I used to get sleep paralysis in my early 20's I explored it. I had roommates. I also slept with a mattress on the dining room floor. There were occasions that, with my eyes closed and my body supposedly asleep- I would see my roommates come into the kitchen. I had more than one roommate and would confirm with them the next day, validating who was who and what they were doing in the kitchen. In other words, I could see despite my eyes being closed. My awareness was kind of, "there" without a body. Back then the sleep paralysis used to scare me and I would scream to them for help or try to slam my head forward to no avail. It took some time getting comfortable with the vulnerability. I think this vulnerable feeling has a lot to do with a genetic association or the akashic record of our animal/physical companion. The evolution of fight or flight forged by 3D, these bodies belong to Mother Earth anyway.

2) My dogs always see me whenever I have an OBE. They always seem excited and ready to play!

To the both of you..

Yes even after all the years- the beginning seems like the desired "end." It's that experience with the new and the unknown, and learning and defining things as we experience with awe and wonder- it's our personal interactions that make it all so valuable and cherished.

:-) Cheers!


The last few posts have made the point that there is a wide diversity of experiences that we have all experienced. In my very first posts on this board I lamented that nothing appeared to me in the technicolor detail that others were reporting, and asked others for feedback as to what I might be doing wrong. Perhaps I had inadvertently broken some law of the universe? So this post, I want to pick up on the diversity and why the experiences of some look and feel nothing like the experiences that others are enjoying. "Voyage Envy" can arouse emotions within us, like frustration which can easily develop into annoyance, then anger then to abandoning any attempt to travel because it's "too difficult and probably not worth the effort". Voyage Envy can also lead to self-doubt, self-blame and even to increasing levels of fear. These emotions are invariably caustic, corrosive and harmful to us

So why the diversity of experiences? Simply, we all have different lessons to learn. The experiences we have are "curated" by consciousness itself to help us learn those lessons. As a teacher, I know the "just in time" principle is important to a learner's progress (and we're ALL learners in the non-physical). If I taught something complex to a student who wasn't ready to grasp any new learning, then the teaching would end in disaster: inattention, confusion and disappointment. Better to take baby steps to ensure success. In the classroom, I "curated" the learning experiences carefully; in the astral, consciousness is doing the curating, operating most often as our intuition, "gut feeling" or simply our "knowing" that what we're immersed in is true, real and accurate. Consciousness also curates through intermediaries such as guides, helpers, bright moving lights that we "just happen" to notice and follow. There is absolutely nothing left to chance in our non-physical travels - we are constantly being assisted to learn. Our travels are shaped so that we learn what we want to learn.

But learn what? There is no "curriculum" in the non-physical. We set our own through the expectations we each have. I personally don't like the phrase "setting intentions" because they are based "what I want, what I demand". So intentions can look like instructions. Buhlman teaches a simple intention/instruction in "clarity" or "clarity now". They are demands. We're not in a position to demand anything of consciousness. So I prefer to set my expectation, as in "I'd really like to know what those fractal shapes I'm seeing mean". I asked that very question and so got up close and personal with the process of creation being explained to me by a being I couldn't see but who knew me" I know now where fractal shapes fit into that process, where they start from and where they go to. Remember that we're the learner; let consciousness know what you want to learn and trust that you'll mostly get the information that you expect

Some have expectations of interacting with others, so that's what will be shown. Others want to meet loved ones who have left the physical. Yet others want to simply probe the astral for the pure joy of discovery. I travel because knowledge is not enough; only direct experience of that knowledge will satisfy sufficiently to be able to confidently and truthfully help others

But what experience does pure curiosity get you? An experience that will address that curiosity. What if that curiosity grows? So will your experiences. Consciousness knows what we individually want and will provide us with tailored experiences. None of us will be placed in situations that we can't manage or cope with. Those tailor-made experiences will result in an expanding awareness while lessening any fears still within us. Consciousness wants a "win win" both for ourselves and also for itself as the Larger Consciousness System (LCS - Tom Campbell's acronym, not mine!). So journeying should not be only seeing and meeting non-physical people, or scenery. It should also evolve into an exploration of things you might never have been conscious of before - but now you are! Such is the manner of our evolution as human beings

Why is that? Because only on the physical plan to we have the free will to make active choices - and to experience the consequences of the decisions we make. We can dream, explore, make plans and put them into action. Only in the physical can we do that. In the non-physical we can participate and facilitate in the creation of amazing possibilities - for those in the physical to pick up. But we can never experience more than a virtual reality. In his book Ultimate Journey, Monroe lamented that he could never go home (in the astral) because everything was just as it was when he left. Here, in the physical, everything continuously changes and we are bombarded with changes that either force us to make decisions and evolve, or to choose no to and accept the consequences of that.

Probably more than enough. Time to stop!

In Love,


LightBeam- Excellent and poetic summary as to our overall context!

Tides- Great points! I agree with your first point, only slightly differing that consciousness/awareness does or can reside outside of the physical body, but for that physical lifetime duration, it is somehow anchored somewhere within the physical body, pineal body, maybe? That is a whole other thread to explore...

Second point- Yeah, dogs and cats usually understand what is going on, lol...

Kupe- You offer some very good insights. The first, is one no one I can remember bringing up, but I certainly admit to suffering myself...Voyage Envy or Experience Envy (as I call it)...yeah, I am just a little jealous of reading some of other people's experiences...I wish I was there or that far ahead, as it seems...so, are we racing each other to Buddhahood...? A silly endeavor, but nonetheless, it exists. From the perspective that it continues to challenge us to get better...then maybe it is a good thing.

Curriculum...? I have mentioned that idea more than once; I think there is, but it is, like you said, tailor-made for each of us, with guidance from the Universal Source, slightly modified and tailored by our local Guides/Teachers...or somesuch...

That was a great post Kupe: What do we expect- meetings with loved ones, teachers, friends...Intent and expectation are necessary to start the process, but the destination is often not what we are necessarily looking for; the answer is to remain open to the possibilities.

I get the idea that 'Free Will' is not best expressed on the Physical Plane; here involves the most restrictions as far as I can see. Free Will is still very importantly involved; and here, it may be the real proving ground of it's expression. The Astral or Mental Plane (the NP in general) seems much more ready for 'Free Expression' but there are still restrictions...

More ideas...good stuff all around and thanks to all
My understanding of Monroe and his return to one of his earliest incarnations, as an 'energy curl' in some far-off galaxy system, where he indulged in endless, but ultimately, boring play was that he was energetically ready to evolve as a soul.
Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.
                                                          -O. Wilde


 I find that what seems the biggest difference in our NPR experiences is indeed related and correlated to our, sometimes chosen, other times spontaneous "vehicles" that we utilize to get "there". Those vehicles being Phasing, Classic OBES, NDEs, LDS and others. For years I have read and heard on radio interviews from others like Robert Peterson how they don't consider a Phase experience the same as OBEs and vice-versa. Some Authors are quite adamant in their beliefs as well.

I said above that I experience the NPRs as a point of consciousness. That seems to be par for the course with Phasing. You are moving into the darkness before your closed eyes and following where you are led. Now when I have a SP related OBE, I do feel like I have a physical body. I can walk through my home or wherever I find myself. Now in LDS, I am becoming aware I am "somewhere other than my bed. I already am experiencing life just like I do here in the physical. There is no fog. You just become aware while you are already in full blown scenario. I could say I feel "a" body. I say "a", because often it is not the same physical body that I use here. In a lot of those experiences, I find myself somewhere else where the people, and sometimes entities there seem to know me, but I don't have a clue where i am or who these folks are. When that occurs, I just play the part that I find myself in.

Kupe, you said in your second post here that you seem to have found yourself getting stuck. If I was you, I would re-read everything that you have posted in this thread. You already explained why we do indeed get stuck. It all has to do with there being a time and place for everything. When we are ready to see more, more is shown to us. Both this physical life and our NPR lives are schools of sorts.

I can see by your past posts here that you are indeed well versed on this phenomenon. This entire thread has been a "breath of fresh air". Such great responses from everyone here. Keep it us guys. I hope this thread is kept active. Such great info for people new and old to this phenomenon.  There are subjects here that have been on people's minds here for years, that finally have been talked about, like for instance "Voyage envy". I think that is why many people give up and fail. They go into this expecting to experience the NPRs as they have seen others do it. For years here I have had new members and a few others PMing me and showing their frustration with where they seem to be in their teachings. It's like the "blocks" we seem to encounter get more difficult as we get deeper into this practice. We are constantly being challenged to re-invent "our own" wheel. I constantly say, "just when I thought I knew what was happening it all changes" and that "what I have learned from the NPR is that I know nothing". I was fortunate in the beginning of my practice to have a "NPR Mentor" show up. That was in the form of my deceased Brother-in-law. That was totally unexpected. He had passed away years ago. I didn't go looking for him. One time when I was in a NPR experience he was just there. He taught me how to navigate my surroundings though and I am forever grateful for that. He was in 3 or 4 of my first experiences. Then as quick as he appeared, he disappeared again, and I never saw him again.
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla


Hi Lumaza, and thanks for the post and your observations

Yes, I think the difference between my first post and this show that I was able to move past my "stuckness" and had I thought it through (which I did, after the event), I would at least have a reason why I might be stuck.

I have wondered about what the reason for being able to travel either with or without a body of some sorts might be. Perhaps having the appearance of virtual arms and legs might be more reassuring and reduce fear - the more normal I appear as a travelling unit, perhaps the more relaxed I might be. But it, like so many things, I suspect more to do with our reason for travelling. I have no great interest in visiting earth-like communities in the non-physical, nor of being surrounded by earth-like forests, lakes and beaches. I am only interested, as I have previously stated, in exploring what was pointed to by that "there's got to be more to to life than this". Searching for the detail of what that word "more" entails doesn't require me to have arms and legs. So I have been able to access a smaller travelling unit, a more fuel efficient unit  🤔 perhaps (just joking!) that we are all able to access if that's what we feel we need. No travelling body type is better than any other. Similarly, no virtual destination is superior or inferior to any other. The journey is all about what we learn there rather than how we get there. I suspect that where we travel to has more to do with our reason for travelling than anything else.

I'm certainly not ruling out that at some point I may have found the details I'm after and then feel the need to experience virtual people, communities and environment. But right now, that's not on my agenda.

Like you, I believe that powerful learning can result from sharing experiences, views and questions. I'm grateful for the response to my posts. Agree - keep it up guys! If we can collectively stimulate curiosity while reducing the fear of traveling, that can only be a good thing.



As it turns out, this post is a "stream of consciousness". You'll see what I mean by the time you get to my final paragraph. I would love your feedback on this
This post is about guides that many have seen in apparently human-like form. I have never seen "my guide" visually and initially experienced "guide envy" until I told myself that I had to use my brain to make the need to call for assistance or confirmation or support most often unnecessary. In other words, I needed to build up my inner trust that everything will be alright

As I wrote that last bit - "everything will be alright" - I recalled when I heard that same expression spoken in my head. I had been unable to do a task that others in the same group had mastered. I had failed and, alone later in my room I reflected deeply on what having failed meant. Not anything positive. While I was wallowing in self-pity, what I described at the time was an angel "jumped into me" via the crown of me head and moved up and down my body a couple of times accompanied by an intense tingling vibrating sensation and a feeling of intense and overwhelming bliss. When the angel was in the process of leaving, I implored "please don't leave me" The unspoken knowing came back clearly to me "Don't worry, everything will be OK". And that left me bewildered. What had happened in the quietness of that room? I couldn't figure it out back then, so I just parked that memory somewhere within and life went on. But what never left was that trust that, no matter what happens, everything will turn out alright for the non-physical "me".

And that observation was a teaching, not just to me but to us all. Trust your inner knowing with every fibre of your body. Let yourself experience vulnerability, doubt, confusion and hesitancy and trust that the result will turn out OK for the non-physical me in the end. When I first experienced really deep meditation, I realized that at some point my breathing had stopped and that death might be an outcome. At that point I recalled that "everything will be alright" and pressed on. I lost consciousness shortly after but regained it after who knows how long, but with that same feeling of bliss. I obviously didn't die and learned to trust myself against all odds. I have also never feared death since. I had been shown that our non-physical self is immortal. Unless we know that Death is a fearful construct of the mind - a belief. We are immortal. Our bodies are not. We are definitely a lot more than meets the eye.

Anyhow, back to the subject of guides! After I started voyaging, I began to doubt that guides existed because I never saw one or even heard from one. Reading other posts of guides that appeared on request, looked suitably guide-like and were super helpful had me wonder "why couldn't I have one like that? The answer I gave myself was that I really hadn't needed one to that point. Any request I made was the ego at work. The moral: don't expect a guide to jump in unless you really have run out of options. In the meantime, figure it out!. After all, while guides have much more experience than us and are able to show us a lot to assist our learning, they can't make our choices for us. In the end, it is our job to make informed, rational choices.

My voyage notes of March 17 read in part

"But before the dialog started, I was taken, I am guessing, to where I was 2 days ago when I got the knowing that I was "home". That was when the helper and I started to dialogue. It was explained to me, in response to my "what am I being shown?" That I was looking at a geometric pattern being "built" by smaller bits being added. h ha! Was this a process of creation? I was told "yes" at this point I was watching how patterns (the geometric shapes) were being created, so where did the material to make the patterns come from? I was shown a vista of smaller, more regularly shapes. These were the smaller components that were the "building blocks" of creation - or the creative process to be more accurate. When I asked "where did the smaller bits come from?, I got the answer "Oneness" "can I see that now? "Not yet" was the answer"

It was during this particular journey that I asked myself "how can I be confident that I was participating in an actual dialog and that it wasn't just the result of my own overheated imagination. To me, the tone of my inner voice was very close to the helper I was conversing to. As the conversation progressed I became sure that I was asking and another entity was answered. "He" used a few words and the occasional phrase that I don't use or are not as I would say. But the inner voice tone was pretty close to being me

That has had me think that the "guide" is a higher self, a more evolved "me" in other words, Am I being helped by a more evolved version myself? I suspect so, and will ask that question to my higher self. What do you think? This next paragraph might help shed some light on where our guidance, support and encouragement along the way has come from

The original I of Robert Munroe, was asked why he and all the subsequent I's gave guidance, support and direction to all subsequent iterations of the original I up to him. The answer was that if Robert Munroe - the latest iteration of the original - succeeded in figuring it all out, then all of the iterations of I succeeded. Why was that important? Because his success, for every I would mean "The way out. Escape velocity. Not just eternity, but infinity." (That quote was from Ultimate Journey, page 170).

That, for me at least has helped me gain some perspective. I have never been separate and individual; I am but the latest iteration of the first I of me who existed a long, long time ago. I have always been supported by previous evolutions of my self. I am a collective, not isolated and alone. That been an enormously helpful "bigger picture" piece of information for me. I hope that it may also be for you

In Love



Great observations, Kupe! I think most of our "knowing" comes from the collective knowledge our larger entity that was accumulated through infinite characters and those characters infinite probable lives. In addition, we have access to the knowing of the entire Source, because at the end all conciseness is ONE mind. But the necessity of "separation" and placing barriers into various unit types is obvious.
To me, there are many types of helpers, but they to do it in a subtle way, and without too much interference. They don't seek recognition. They don't need to have form, but at times if they have to show themselves to us in a form, they will do it in a way that it will make sense to us as humans.
I have encountered many different entities and have felt presence just as energy. I've had miraculous happenings in the physical where I have felt "someone" moving my hand to prevent me from a crash. I believe everyone has stories like that.
I have not searched for my guides on purpose to ask who they are, because I feel like everyone is connected to so many points of consciousness that are interacting constantly on all levels. I've had APs where I have been given advice from a black cat with a human face, fairy like butterfly, deceased loved ones, other characters that I felt were part of my larger spirit, etc. The experiences are so diverse that I don't want to limit thinking I have just the higher self, or I have one guardian angel. It's a lot more than we can comprehend. But I let them do their thing. I don't peruse them to sit them down and ask questions. They know in what way it's best to help and when they may or may not reveal themselves.


 Kupe. I think you may find this thread I made years ago of some interest. Marie's explanation was one of the best I ever heard on the subject.

I have had many experiences in these "grid like/geometric shape" environments. One of particular note was a Phase session I had years ago wherein I found myself in some kind of grid like land, similar to what one might have seen in the Tiger Woods Golf Game of the past. In that experience the grids soon turned into an environment. I was moving so fast that I actually caught up to the fact that this environment I was seeing was being created by me and for me, but indirectly though. It was being created "for" me. The Beings that were actually behind the construction were making a landscape that I would be comfortable with. When I finally realized this, I asked them to stop it and that I wanted to see what their true reality was, not a creation being taken from my own mind.
Here are a few of my own "grid like" experiences including the one I talked about above.

On the Guides subject. I have never requested a Guide to aid me. When I was new to this practice, I found the ones that appeared to be very helpful though. Some were seen, others were "felt". In many of my experiences, I feel a presence, but that presence isn't always seen. Just the same, I always thank whoever it is, even if they wished to remain in the shadows. The Guides/Teachers seem to allow you to fumble and fall, before they interfere and help you.
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla


Escape, thank you for your earlier response (post #25) and the points you made. I'd like to address a couple of those things specifically in this post

I had mentioned "voyage envy", but I could also have mentioned "experience envy" or "guide envy" the commonality is that all involve envy - that, "I want what they had" this always seems to be followed by"why can't I have what they're having", followed in turn by "I must be doing something wrong"

I'd hope that we look at the experiences of others not with a sense of egoistical envy but with the sense that "wow, I haven't tried or thought about that - I'll see if I can do the same" So a report of experiences can be both a teaching device and for someone's inspiration - we can never know what we're really capable of until someone reminds us that an ever-expanding menu of possibilities exist. In that sense, a report is like the carrot hanging just beyond the donkey's reach. It inspires him to want to reach it. Reports also over time from the same person also show that person evolving before our eyes. The person himself may not realize their growth as easily as others can - feedback of that can be highly motivational to "keep doing whatever it is you're doing!"

Escape also commented on "curriculum".  Munroe, Campbell and others write that the decision to return to the physical plane (this planet) is made freely by us in conjunction with others in the non-physical, that we indicate what we want to achieve through another human life and, if that is agreed to, it becomes effectively our next "mission plan" We arrive, born into circumstances that are favourable to the success of our agreed mission plan. That seems logical, but I haven't yet experienced myself any aspect of  "preparation for rebirth"

But having got here, we certainly all seem to stumble about, completely oblivious to whatever intentions recorded might have been in the mission plan, simply because we mostly forget all about coming to be human from the non-physical  It all seems a bit haphazard until you remember that the learnings of previous rebirth cycles is never lost. That last sentence is now a "known" to me, much to my relied. I asked my helper whether, upon death all of the learning I am accumulating would be lost in any future physical life? - would I have to "start again". The answer was "no". The guide then told me that me that the larger consciousness records everything we think, say and do and that every experience impacts upon our evolution towards the goal of the entire consciousness system. Both Munroe and Campbell report having visited and studied the Akashic Records. I have not been there as yet, so that remains a belief.

Finally, Escape commented on free will. Any situation we encounter in this physical world or in the non-physical that gives us a choice requires us to make a decision. If  we are able to make that decision, we are free to freely choose any option. We can make the decision in either the physical or the non-physical because it's a cognitive (that is, virtual) activity in either world.

The issue is: can we equally carry out that decision in both the physical and the non-physical worlds? No. In the virtual, the actions must always be virtual. Only in the physical can the decision have "concrete" outcomes that we refer to as actions such as speaking, touching etc. the outcome of decisions in the physical  lead on to consequences for those actions (popularly called karma). There is no karma generated in the non-physical. (Karma generated here, though can end up in fixed beliefs leading to an afterlife destination where other people of like, strong belief will gravitate to)

So it's not free will, but the consequences of actions taken as a result of that free will that makes this physical world such an alluring place for those in the non-physical to come to: it is the perfect"sandbox" in which to practice, learn and more quickly evolve ourselves.

This physical world is the only way that we can experience, not the virtual processes involved in coming to a decision, but rather what happens subsequently: taking actions and being able to experience the consequences of that. How else can we know how compassion, empathy, love REALLY work? By doing things that make us aware of the consequences on other. Without action it would remain an academic (virtual) concept.

In Love


I've mentioned before, in passing, the geometric shapes that appear and disappear when my state of relaxation is deep enough. (Deep enough for 3D (depth) But what do they do? I have ideas, but I have not asked my I-There that question yet. Perhaps someone else has asked or has ideas?



Quote from: Kupe on March 25, 2023, 22:02:06
I've mentioned before, in passing, the geometric shapes that appear and disappear when my state of relaxation is deep enough. (Deep enough for 3D (depth) But what do they do? I have ideas, but I have not asked my I-There that question yet. Perhaps someone else has asked or has ideas?

Kupe. Look at them as "building blocks" creating the new reality you are about to experience. They fade and disappear when we lack the focus to really "zero in" and hold our focus on one thing at the time. I have experienced and still do occasionally experience that "flitting" around.

Every single geometric shape there is, has "mental associations" attached to it. I post often here about learning how to passively observe the shapes and to "allow" them to morph or take whatever shape they wish to. You will be amazed at how a single focus on a square in the darkness before your eyes can become quite an elaborate scene, that is "if you allow it to"!  :-)
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."  Nicolai Tesla


"Do not feel lonely, the entire universe is inside you.
Stop acting so small. You are the universe in ecstatic motion.
Set your life on fire. Seek those who fan your flames."
   ― Rumi

Let me begin by thanking those who have responded to previous posts. I have benefitted from the wisdom of others still participating in this forum, and I appreciate your support

I had a genuinely gob-smacking experience this morning, as a consequence of which these have moved from the "not 100% certain about" column to the "known" column,

In short, I decided to set the intention to simply be open to whatever the universe wanted to reveal to me. The exploration in consciousness that resulted took me far, exercised by powers of interoception and brought me back. In very broad detail, that will suffice

When I returned, I stretched, yawned, blinked a few times before focussing on what was in front of me. I was astonished to see the universe in my bedroom. To be precise, before me, below, to each side and above. I double-checked. Was I dreaming? No, I recalled removing the pillow behind my head and putting it on my lap, I remembered (and shortly after recorded) full details of the journey I had just finished, I remembered to yawning, stretching post-journey routine. I asked myself "do you know where you are?" and gave myself full and accurate details of the room, the house, the city. I was definitely fully awake and aware. Yet there, in all of the detail I had just been travelling through, we're the stars, the coloured energy swirls, the movement and the innumerable points of light. Where did the universe come from? Into my bedroom

Then my attention was drawn to a small bright light in front and to the right of me, at about the 5 o'clock position. It was emitting a steady bright white light. Where did that come from? The room was totally black (it was around 5am. The sunrise was still an hour away), There was nothing that could reflect light where that light was shining from (I later checked, nothing there). I was curious- where was it coming from? I took my right hand off my hand and moved it across my line of vision, about a foot in front of my face, while I was watching the light. It continued to shine without interruption. Then I realised that my arm wasn't there - the feeling of it was there, but the substance of it wasn't. I moved the arm about a few times and could see the very, very faint outline of what I figured were the tips of some of the fingers. But other than the hint of the fingers, nothing, no arm interrupted that light. Was the light coming from within me? No, because that small bright light shining from behind where the arm should have been was what enabled my eyes to faintly discern the outline of what were my fingers

I turned on the light. The universe presumably went.

In just one experience a number of things shifted from the list of "things I'm fairly sure about but can't say are true"  to the list of "things that are now known to me due to direct experience"

1.  "My consciousness" exists in both the physical and non-physical worlds
2.  The universe is an object within consciousness. Specifically, within my consciousness.
3.  "I" am an instance of consciousness, a unique and continuously evolving unit of the larger continuously evolving consciousness system
4.  My fundamental essence is energetic, not physical. I can evolve the energy that I am, but can neither create it, nor cease it.

The following I'm pretty sure about but can't say yet are true

5.  There are many iterations of "I" from the original instance. Each evolution of the I is an inheritor of the essence of all previous
6.  The universe is a persisting object within all individualized iterations of the larger consciousness system

I wonder whether anyone would be interested in commenting.

Still slightly stunned,



I would venture that you are both the relative and the absolute (although to use 'you are' and 'absolute' in the same sentence is rather contradictory but language fails at times). I would say on the one hand you are the individuated unit of consciousness because of the persistence of thought identifying with itself. But before thought arises to create individualism then there is just This. Unknowable and unnamable This. Not you are This but rather just This. That is consciousness in the absolute sense.

As soon as thought arises then so does the identification with separation which creaties a world of objects appearing to a me, the subject. And the identification is the same whether it is the physical world or the infinite non physical worlds. Both are creations of thought which is not good or bad but rather just an expression of This. It's all exquisite.


Thank you Floriferous

In the opening of my eyes, in the awe of that fleeting instant, was This. When the thought "wow" came to mind, the instant had gone. The magic of the moment.

The learning is that the mind is still too cluttered to be still to what is.



Quote from: Kupe on March 29, 2023, 14:51:39
Thank you Floriferous

In the opening of my eyes, in the awe of that fleeting instant, was This. When the thought "wow" came to mind, the instant had gone. The magic of the moment.

The learning is that the mind is still too cluttered to be still to what is.


I agree but would also add that 'what is' is present right in the midst of a busy mind. In fact, 'what is' is the busy mind just as much as it is the still mind. If we talk in Absolute terms then the busy mind is also This. It is only when we identify with the busy mind being a problem and therefore something to resist that it appears to become a problem. A busy mind roughly translates as 'lots of thoughts' and therefore what we are essentially saying in 'a busy mind is a problem'  is that thought has a problem with itself and tries to get rid of itself through things like meditation. The idea that thought has an issue with itself and sets about trying to eliminate itself is curious and yet millions of people sit down on a meditation cushion every day to attempt that very thing.


Hi again Floriferous 😀

Your point - that what is is never exclusionary, is well made. Just accept, be still and learn. "Stillness speaks"