How do you know if OBES are not just lucid dreams?

[catmeow]

This old chestnut. I'm still not convinced that full fledged OBEs are the same as vivid LDs. Celia Green investigated and catalogued hundreds of OBEs and hundreds of LDs in her 1968 books "Lucid Dreams" and "Out of the Body Experiences". She wasn't a New Ager, rather a scientist. Most of the OOB accounts she was given, occurred whilst the subject was physically active and wide awake, eg taking a driving test.

People described doing some normal activity, such as walking round a supermarket, talking to a friend, driving a car etc, and then suddenly found themselves "out of the body", watching their physical body continue performing its task with no apparent difficulty. No sleep paralysis, no physical relaxation, no loss of physical consciousness (the mind splits into "physical" and "out of body" consciousnesses which continue to function independently). The "out of body" consciousness is sometimes expanded, and "more real" than physical consciousness. Sometimes very much expanded. Vision is sometimes spherical, being able to see in all directions at once. Physical observations tend to be accurate (no or minimal reality fluctuations). The physical body can invariably be seen.

Now has anyone on this board ever promoted an LD into an OBE in which

1. Consciousness is heightened compared with physical consciousness.
2. You can see in all directions at once.
3. You are able to perceive the physical world accurately.
4. You can clearly see your physical body.
5. Your physical body is awake!

I'm just asking. Maybe some of you have, but the list above helps to distinguish OBEs from LDs. LDs tend to be dream like, with normal unidirectional vision, lots of reality fluctuations, the physical body is often not visible and it generally remains asleep! OBEs are quite different.

I know from experience that conscious awareness can be improved to normal or near normal levels in LDs, but a full fledged OBE is more than just a vivid highly realistic LD. I suggest.

Not saying there isn't a spectrum between LD and OBE, but I would like hear if anyone has converted an LD into an OBE as described above?

[todd421757]

Catmeow,

I really enjoyed your post. Thanks for sharing it with us. I have never been able to convert a lucid dream into an OBE with the 5 characteristics.

I am in agreement with you about classic OBE's being different than lucid dreams.

[Xanth]

How exactly did we get caught up in this discussion again?  LoL

A non-physical experience is a non-physical experience.  Hopefully we can agree upon that. 

As for labels... useless metaphors that limit those experiences.  Think about how free your experiences become when we stop labeling them and just enjoy them? 

Because honestly, we'll *NEVER* come to a consensus regarding this issue...

I think we need a sticky about this particular subject whereby we ask people to simply state what they believe... and make sure that the reader knows that it's only that, a belief or even a personal truth.  I think everyone needs to come to their own conclusion about what labels they choose to use.  In the end, it doesn't really matter what you call your experience as long as what you call it doesn't get in the way of you experiencing it, because once you allow it to get in the way, you've lost.

[catmeow]

Thanks todd.

Because honestly, we'll *NEVER* come to a consensus regarding this issue...

It doesn't matter how many times and in how many ways we say that apples are oranges, if apples actually aren't oranges, the discussion will continue.

[Xanth]

Thanks todd.

It doesn't matter how many times and in how many ways we say that apples are oranges, if apples actually aren't oranges, the discussion will continue.

Yup, that would be the discussion which will probably never have a consensus. 

Just state your opinions, why you think those opinions are true... and let the chips fall where they may.

[Xanth]

I've got a book upstairs, "Astral Projection: Plain & Simple" by Osborne Phillips.
http://www.amazon.com/Astral-Projection-Plain-Simple-Body/dp/073870279X

I believe it was one of the first few books I purchased and read on the subject.  Suffice to say it's anything BUT plain and simple... it's confusing and convoluted.
Why?  Because he puts so much stock in the mystical, old world traditions and pseudo knowledge regarding astral projection... and attempts to label every little experience with his own subjective truths that it not only didn't help me it actually contributed to getting even more confused about the subject and kept me from projecting.

This is why these discussions on what labels experiences are, are ultimately self-defeating.  It doesn't matter what you call an experience... the points is, as PR pointed out at the very beginning of this thread, THAT YOU HAVE EXPERIENCES.  That's where it all starts.  You can't make headway in this game if you don't have your own experiences. 

Oh and please, don't buy that book... it's useless.

[Volgerle]

Oh and please, don't buy that book... it's useless.

wholeheartedly agree, it's utter crap, especially for a newbie, thank goodness it was not the first book I read on this topic (which was Buhlman, actually and it's one of the best for a start, imo).