Difference between lucid dreaming and Focus 2 projection

[Lighthouse4]

What are the differences in sensations between lucid dreaming (which is still dreamlike and you don't "feel" your body) and astral projection into Focus 2 (dreamworld / subconscious area) where we do our lucid dreaming? I'm wondering if one "feels" their astral body in Focus 2 like one does in Focus 3. As I understand it, the astral body feels quite real in Focus 1 and Focus 3. That our astral body feels very much like our physical bodies do in our physical world now. Wondering about Focus 2, though, as it's a "dream reality" where our actual dreams (both lucid and unconscious) take place.

I'm assuming one "feels" their astral body in Focus 2, otherwise I'm not sure how one would tell the difference between lucid dreaming and projection into Focus 2.

Hope this makes sense. Thanks for any help!

[Lighthouse4]

Anybody out there?

[EscapeVelocity]

Lol, well maybe this is a sign that your, or my, or our telepathic communication skills are somehow working...

Just an hour and a half earlier, I was re-reading some of Frank's Focus level definitions to be sure I could answer your question accurately. Then I got distracted and watched the evening news...

One reason in the delay for anyone responding is that, IMO, your question is a very good one and requires a bit of depth and nuanced understanding for a proper answer. And while thinking about your question, I think that I had a pretty good insight, which I will share. So thank you for prompting me!

I am not completely satisfied with the answer I will offer, because I am finding that it may change over time depending on the level of one's experience; and my own experience continues to evolve. My experience, at this time, is telling me this: The idea that as you move into deeper or higher levels of the astral/mental/F2/F3/afterlife/spirit/higher dimensions/whatever does not necessarily mean that you will "feel" more solidly within your body. Keep in mind that this "body" is non-physical, so there is no physicality or physical weight to it. And the term "body" can be somewhat misleading; think of it also as a "vehicle of consciousness", a vessel that is designed specifically for the environment of the particular dimension you are focusing within. Now, early on we naturally envision our NP body as a mirror of our humanoid PR body. But that myth is quickly dispelled with our early RTZ/Etheric level experiences as we see how it can morph from experience to experience. We are translucent, or blue-ish or green-ish, or star-like lights are within us; or our arms can stretch like Gumby; if we manage to look in a mirror it can get really freaky. But there IS a certain weight and density to the Etheric OBE and I think that is because it is closely aligned with the Physical.

Our dreams and early Astral experiences feel mostly weightless; this is a sign that the dimension or focus of our experience has changed. For me, the questions of weight and gravity are now left behind and the idea becomes just how "solid" do I feel within this new body or vehicle of consciousness? That "solidity" depends greatly, IMO, on just how much awareness/consciousness I am bringing to the experience, and that can depend on many factors.

The insight that you prompted me to realize is that it is not just how much awareness I am bringing to the experience that defines the "solidity" of my body, it is the degree of requirement for the mission or environment being experienced. If no physical action is required then I may just remain essentially formless, a point of consciousness. If the environment requires a form of semi-physical response then the appropriate energy body will be manifested. Now this requires our having already developed the appropriate energy body and awareness to both activate and occupy it; this is why many of our first experiences within a new Focus/dimension feels limited and incomplete and confusing, we have not yet fully developed our awareness within that particular energy body.

The way that you tell the difference between an F2/Dream state/lower Astral experience and a higher "Astral Proper"/F3 experience is a bit complicated and determined by several factors- the interactions with others, your level of awareness, the "feel" of the experience. In my own experience, I recognized the transition after the fact, in retrospect, after many experiences. This is a very personal point of development and you will find that you are getting short experiences of both lower and higher, until you begin to recognize the differences. So relax a bit with that knowledge and just go with the flow. It will happen in due course. part of this is also developing your mental body so that your awareness can make the next necessary transition.

2nd insight- One I already know but will state for clarity: As we develop the ability to move our Focus of awareness into 'higher' energy bodies, we do not feel more "physical"...we actually feel lighter and less dense. This is actually closer to our base state of consciousness. When I did retrievals back in January, I found that sometimes I was pure energy and other times I manifested a "physical" body...

Physical density is only manifested as we may find necessary for a particular environment.

Kepple defines our state of consciousness in F2 as our dream state or subconscious. Kurt Leland defines the lower Astral as our subconscious. I think that both opinions are correct. I will take it a step further and state that the psychiatrists/psychologists were well-intentioned but that they got it wrong:

It should not be called the sub-conscious. This is actually our base state of consciousness operation. If anything should be labelled "Sub", it is the Physical Reality consciousness.

[Volgerle]

What are the differences in sensations between lucid dreaming (which is still dreamlike and you don't "feel" your body) and astral projection into Focus 2 (dreamworld / subconscious area) where we do our lucid dreaming? I'm wondering if one "feels" their astral body in Focus 2 like one does in Focus 3. As I understand it, the astral body feels quite real in Focus 1 and Focus 3. That our astral body feels very much like our physical bodies do in our physical world now. Wondering about Focus 2, though, as it's a "dream reality" where our actual dreams (both lucid and unconscious) take place.

I'm assuming one "feels" their astral body in Focus 2, otherwise I'm not sure how one would tell the difference between lucid dreaming and projection into Focus 2. Hence s projection is by definition (for me) the projecting of your mind away from your physical F1 body out into 'mindscapes' of all different levels. (As said, it is my definition).

Hope this makes sense. Thanks for any help!

I also had cases in dream(state) where I felt something physical and had an 'astral body' that reacted to it although some things might filter down to your actual physical body (in F1).

I also believe that dream(state)s take place in F2 but for me even dreams is a 'projection' - a rather unconscious one, when we talk about projections we normally mean controlled and conscious ones which I believe are possible into all focus levels (F2,F3 and F4).

Anyway, you ask good questions and it is difficult to provide a solid answer that is why I did not react at first because I (and I assume no one here) can answer it 100% satisfactorily. It is all subjective experience, too, of course.

[Nameless]

I too am not completely sure I can answer this question to anyone's satisfaction. I have been thinking about it though. Generally speaking it is not till after the fact that I can place my experience within any certain category or focus levels. A large part of that is due to the fact that the focus levels just don't make a lot of sense to me or not nearly as much as to  others who have a much better grasp on this subject.

For me, a dream even a lucid one is any one I have where I do not gain awareness or a feeling of wakefulness within the dream itself. These are still excellent experiences and there is much to learn from them. Now I can't say which focus level precisely it is where that feeling of awareness or wakefulness inside the 'dream' takes place. I do know however sometimes the feeling is much more physical and at those times it seems to me to be exactly what is needed. I would still call that a projection as opposed to a dream.

Many times the feeling in a projection does pass down to your physical body. Such as the touch of a hand or the feeling of a breeze blowing. I can't say for sure but I don't recall at the moment any time in which the physical sensation of my body passed to my astral body but having said that I can recall many instances of physical sensations in the astral passing to my body in the physical. Maybe that makes sense but I can't say for sure what focus level those sensations come from.

So you've given us a rather interesting thing to think on.

[Lighthouse4]

Lol, well maybe this is a sign that your, or my, or our telepathic communication skills are somehow working...

Just an hour and a half earlier, I was re-reading some of Frank's Focus level definitions to be sure I could answer your question accurately...

Wow! Thanks!

One reason in the delay for anyone responding is that, IMO, your question is a very good one and requires a bit of depth and nuanced understanding for a proper answer...

Oh, okay, good to hear because I wast thinking maybe it wasn't a good question! LOL

...My experience, at this time, is telling me this...

Very interesting and much to think about. Thank you for responding!

[Lighthouse4]

I also had cases in dream(state) where I felt something physical and had an 'astral body' that reacted to it although some things might filter down to your actual physical body (in F1).

I also believe that dream(state)s take place in F2 but for me even dreams is a 'projection' - a rather unconscious one, when we talk about projections we normally mean controlled and conscious ones which I believe are possible into all focus levels (F2,F3 and F4).

Anyway, you ask good questions and it is difficult to provide a solid answer that is why I did not react at first because I (and I assume no one here) can answer it 100% satisfactorily. It is all subjective experience, too, of course.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between lucid dreaming (projection after falling asleep, which is in Focus 2) and projecting into Focus 2 (projecting without falling asleep). Although I can understand that there may not be a "need" for an astral body when projecting into Focus 2 as it depends on what the experience calls for, I wonder if anyone has experienced an astral body while lucid dreaming. Actually...I'm confused here... I have read that lucid dreaming is considered projection in Focus 2 and I have also read that one *can* project from lucid dreaming into a Focus area. ?? Maybe they mean that they project from Focus 2 to Focus 3 from a lucid dream? (kinda confused LOL). Or maybe it's a shift in awareness while in Focus 2... from lucid dream (no astral body) to a shift in awareness that manifests an astral body (if needed), but STILL in Focus 2 which is "dreamland" where you interact only with yourself (not other entities like in Focus 3).

You mention you had an astral body in dream(state). Was that during a lucid dream? Or was that when you projected into Focus 2 without falling asleep?

[Lighthouse4]

...
For me, a dream even a lucid one is any one I have where I do not gain awareness or a feeling of wakefulness within the dream itself. These are still excellent experiences and there is much to learn from them. Now I can't say which focus level precisely it is where that feeling of awareness or wakefulness inside the 'dream' takes place. I do know however sometimes the feeling is much more physical and at those times it seems to me to be exactly what is needed. I would still call that a projection as opposed to a dream.

I thought "lucid dream" meant awareness of dreaming? The word choice "wakefulness" resonates with me. Maybe it's a jump from simple awareness to that sense of being awake that differentiates the lucid dream (which takes place in Focus 2 "dreamland") and astral projections (which takes place in Focus 2  "dreamland").

I've been dreaming a lot lately and I'm not usually aware I'm dreaming. I wake up and think, "Darn it! I was just dreaming and didn't become aware of it." This morning I was dreaming and started to experience the last bit of the dream in a more "wakeful" state where it became very real to me that my husband leaned over in bed and said "Are you sleeping?" I totally felt like it was real in the moment. Then I woke up completely. From what I understand, it is in this moment that I could become aware I'm dreaming and then project into Focus 2 and continue to experience Focus 2 from a new level of awareness than simple "lucid dream."

Many times the feeling in a projection does pass down to your physical body. Such as the touch of a hand or the feeling of a breeze blowing. I can't say for sure but I don't recall at the moment any time in which the physical sensation of my body passed to my astral body but having said that I can recall many instances of physical sensations in the astral passing to my body in the physical. Maybe that makes sense but I can't say for sure what focus level those sensations come from.

So you've given us a rather interesting thing to think on.

I read that there are sensations in Focus 1 and Focus 3. I had not read that about Focus 2. But from what I'm reading in this thread, it seems possible to have sensations in Focus 2 once a more wakefulness or shift in awareness takes place.

[Lighthouse4]

I'll change this "mistake post" into yet another thought/question. LOL

Soooo.... if we feel sensations in our astral body *because* we are connected to a physical body, does that mean we don't feel sensations any longer after the "silver cord" is cut/detached (when our bodies die) and we are no longer connected to our physical body?

[Lighthouse4]

Here's another question regarding the difference between lucid dreaming and a more wakeful awareness of projection into Focus 2.

Since both levels of awareness take place in Focus 2 "dreamworld" where it's your own mind seeing an objective view of your internal subjective world where you can create your reality, what would be the difference in purpose for yourself? In other words, if both include being able to paint your own reality from all the "stuff" within you, what's the benefit of projecting into Focus 2 over lucid dreaming in Focus 2?

[Nameless]

I'm not that detailed a person to be able to answer you clearly here Lighthouse. I've personally never seen that silver cord so many speak of. However I do feel the connection to my physical body. I don't question that as it seems normal to me that if my body is alive then of course I should be able to feel it regardless where my astral or mental body is.

The benefit to projecting over lucid dreaming is obvious, that is just being able to do it. Also I would like to add that while much of what we experience is our own personal creative thought reality that does not mean all of it. There is something much larger going on.

You said, "I thought "lucid dream" meant awareness of dreaming? The word choice "wakefulness" resonates with me. Maybe it's a jump from simple awareness to that sense of being awake that differentiates the lucid dream (which takes place in Focus 2 "dreamland") and astral projections (which takes place in Focus 2  "dreamland")."

There are many levels of awareness and exactly at what point you would call yourself lucid is highly subjective. Just being vaguely aware is far different than being highly aware and being able to manipulate a dream. Keep in mind that much of this is guided from without. When you are 'out there' you are subject to many things including your own thought patterns rather than 'just' your thought patterns.

[EscapeVelocity]

Again, I think this is a great question Lighthouse4, and it digs a little deeper and possibly a little closer to the heart of your inquiry, maybe.

Nameless and Volgerle have given you good perspectives on this contrast between Dreaming, Lucid Dreaming and the F2 contexts.

Now you appear to be asking just how your noticing each particular context may affect your "purpose". A good and fair question.

Just for the record, I have never seen the 'silver cord' either, so I am not concerned about it.

And just for the sake of this discussion, let's agree that your dreams, lucid dreams and early projections are taking place in Focus 2, your personal dream world. The key point to understand is that this is like a 'training ground', a school of sorts. You are segregated here for a reason, so that you don't 'pollute' the Wider Reality with uncontrolled emotions and energy. There are all sorts of lessons to be learned here and most of the material is, in fact, pulled from your subconscious. The 'lesson plan' or 'curriculum', as it were is possibly overseen and handed down from an aspect of YOU, likely your Higher Self. And there are likely 'outside sources': Teachers, Guides and Friends that can pop in from time to time to add in a lesson or assist in your instruction. This will become more apparent as you gather experiences.

So yes, it is your personal dream world and you can make material changes within it (and learning to do that is a lesson in and of itself). But it's not that simple; once training commences, making haphazard changes to the environment can and will ruin the lesson being presented. You will not know that it is a lesson, that is part of the fun, Lol. And your training has already begun, in fact long ago, possibly in your childhood. In your dreams. If you search back through your dreams, you may begin to piece it together, where the lessons actually began.

This is part of remembering.

The fact that you are asking the question about the difference in 'purpose for yourself' regarding the LD state and the Projection state is possibly a test question or lesson in itself. You are starting to wonder and question the difference between these two perspectives.

Maybe it is like flying a plane. You might engage the autopilot and sit back and snooze (dreaming). Or you can take full and complete control of the aircraft yourself (lucid dreaming or projection). The fact that you are beginning to question the subtle differences between these states indicates to me that your training has begun. You will likely find that as you ask for and expect more awareness within each of these contexts, you will get more awareness and then the lessons will become more frequent and apparent.

The point of my analogy is that you are recognizing and exerting more control within each successive context...dreaming, lucid dreaming, projecting...etc. This is a good sign of progress. Fun awaits!

[Lighthouse4]

Thank you all for your interaction with me. Great stuff here and much to think about. Appreciate your time!

[Volgerle]

You mention you had an astral body in dream(state). Was that during a lucid dream? Or was that when you projected into Focus 2 without falling asleep?

Not just lucid dreams. Dreams in general.

[Lumaza]

 Hello and welcome to the Astral Pulse Lightbeam4. From reading your stats here, I can see in your short time here that you have been doing your research here. That in itself will lead to your success. Many times people report their first "conscious" OBE or Lucid Dream after just listening to a video or even a conversation on the topic itself.

Now, to your question. It has been talked about many times on this Forum in the past, just not the way you have inquired above about it.

All the answers given to you by the experienced members of the this Forum have been great. The two paragraphs that really stood out to me were written by EV here. If I were you, I would read this and reread this now and again throughout your "evolution" with your OBE process. Right now, EV's statement will give you more questions than answers. But as you delve deeper into this practice, you will find that his words will have more meaning. You will be able to check these things off your list!  
"And just for the sake of this discussion, let's agree that your dreams, lucid dreams and early projections are taking place in Focus 2, your personal dream world. The key point to understand is that this is like a 'training ground', a school of sorts. You are segregated here for a reason, so that you don't 'pollute' the Wider Reality with uncontrolled emotions and energy. There are all sorts of lessons to be learned here and most of the material is, in fact, pulled from your subconscious. The 'lesson plan' or 'curriculum', as it were is possibly overseen and handed down from an aspect of YOU, likely your Higher Self. And there are likely 'outside sources': Teachers, Guides and Friends that can pop in from time to time to add in a lesson or assist in your instruction. This will become more apparent as you gather experiences.

So yes, it is your personal dream world and you can make material changes within it (and learning to do that is a lesson in and of itself). But it's not that simple; once training commences, making haphazard changes to the environment can and will ruin the lesson being presented. You will not know that it is a lesson, that is part of the fun, Lol. And your training has already begun, in fact long ago, possibly in your childhood. In your dreams. If you search back through your dreams, you may begin to piece it together, where the lessons actually began."

In the NP/Otherwhere/Astral, which ever name you choose to go with, there are many lessons, as there are here in this physical existence. Our entire existence here is filled with "tests, quests and challenges". So, why wouldn't it be there as well? I live by the certain adages, the one that seems to fit the best to me at least where this practice comes into play is "change your mindset changes your reality". That's what I based this thread here on:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/tests_quests_and_challenges-t46546.0.html

When i was new, I had many questions. When i finally had my first conscious OBE/AP, I had no control over anything, let alone my own self. I flitted around from scene to scene, like it was some kind of revolving door. I couldn't hold onto anything for longer than a few seconds. Then one day a Aide/Helper showed up. It was either my deceased Brother-inlaw or some spirit playing the part of him, but whatever it was, it was profoundly helpful. He taught me depth perception, how to prolong an experience and what I find one of the most important things that all in this practice have either learned or need to learn to do, which is to first observe and then react/engage. Actually, it's more about knowing when to finally engage yourself in the situation at hand. This is not a problem during a LD though because in a LD, you are already immersed in the scene. You just need to learn how to heighten your awareness in the scenario at hand. During a conscious OBE/Phases session, at first, you will likely have to overcome all kinds of things form fear tests to signposts. That's basically part of the learning curve though.

In my Phase sessions, I experience everything from the point of view of single point of consciousness. I don't need to use appendages to get around, that happens with just a simple thought, no bodily vehicle is needed. This way, I find there are no limitations on where I can go or what I can see and learn.

Via a LD, I become aware I am in a scenario, but don't really "feel" any appendages. I guess that is the last thing on my mind during the experience. Normally, I will already have some kind of pressing matter to extinguish or some soul to help.

I have never seen this commonly spoke about "silver cord" either. Come to think of it, for the many years now that I have been a member of this Forum, I can't really think of too many experiencers here on the AP forums that have actually mentioned this elusive "silver cord" as well.

[Lighthouse4]

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for the help.