I did a RTZ verification experiment this morning

[Tombo]

Hello everybody

Once again i did a verification experiment. I will just describe what happened and then we can discuss it.

Ok

Experimental Setting

My girlfriend placed a object on top of the wardrobe. This can be anything, but it should be fairly small, 3-dimensional and unique. She used things like a needle, hair clip, or a ball of wool in the past.

Why this setting?

I use this setting because  to me it seems very difficult to guess the object since it can virtually be anything. At least the chance to guess is way smaller then, for example guessing a playing card.
I also figured, it may be easier to perceive a real object compared to a abstract number for example. Also the goal of this experiments is not to proof anything but to explore the possibility of proof.

Outcome
I already did this experiment a couple of times in the past. Did it again twice this morning and the outcome is comparable each time.

Ok so here we go:

1. attempt

I awoke in the morning and still felt the sleep paralysis, so I figured this may be a good opportunity to project. I managed to "crawl" away from me body and moved to the living room (where the wardrobe is at) after about 30 sec my sight became brighter and I saw the wardrobe in front of me (the projection was weak, I almost lost focus a couple of times). I picked the bowl where the object was placed in and looked at it. To my surprise a Butterfly fluttered inside the bowl. I was aware of the fact, that it is highly unlikely that my girlfriend placed a butterfly inside the bowl, but I hoped that the real target may have a relation to a butterfly. That very moment I was pulled back to me body.

I did not move and managed to split from my body again

2. Attempt

I again moved to the wardrobe and this time remembered that Robert bruce once said, I should try to pull energy to the astral body trough breathing to enhance clarity. I did so and felt I vibrating sensation on my forehead (brow chakra)
I again looked inside the bowl and the my surprise saw a living bee that was humming there . I clearly say the yellow orange color of the bee with black sparkles.

What was the real target?

The real target was a tube of skin cream?! even with fantasy i can't find any match between a Butterfly a bee and skin cream :confused:

Questions

-Am I doing something wrong?
- what could I do to perceive the real object?
-what interpretations and conclusions can i draw from this experiments?
-any hints, ideas, suggestions, comments?

remark

After the second attempt a flow out of the window. There a saw a freeway right behind our house (in reality there is no freeway within 3 miles)
I found this perfectly normal. It didn't even cross my mind that there is no such freeway in reality. it actually felt very familiar! perfectly normal.

Was I not enough aware to do the experiments properly?

Best Regards Tom and sorry for the long post

[Nay]

Who cares if you missed the intended target..whoohooo for you Tombo!!  Don't cha just love that "crawling" away? hehe..

I wish ya'll would stop with the tests and just enjoy yourselves.

Take Care!

Nay

[qbeac]

Hi Tombo, first of all, thank you very much for posting your experiments, I find them very interesting and helpful to anybody who might attempt similar tests.

Let me give you a few brief ideas that just occurred to me about it:

- To begin with, I must say I am not an expert with AP, so I could not tell you what is best to do to try to avoid the distortions between the physical plane and the astral plane. I wish some experienced projectors could give some wise advice about it: useful techniques, mental control, mental power, etc.

- In the Spanish Science forum we have thought of at least three different ways to try to obtain proof of the "reality" of these experiences (*1):

1) Watching the physical plane while you are in the astral plane and reporting on it correctly (that's what you are trying to do now). If this could be done, it would be great because it is the simplest experiment. However, it presents the difficulty of the distortions between the astral and the physical planes: the problem of the RTZ (Real Time Zone).

2) Group OBE. Trying to communicate with another person who is also in the astral plane with you (Ex: two experienced projectors... or anybody, really, for instance, some friend of yours who is sleeping and you wake him up in the astral plane). That way, even if you don't meet with that person in the physical plane (perhaps you could meet with him/her in other planes?), you could still communicate with him/her and exchange relevant information that could be verified later, like in this example:

- "Faraway can be so close..." (Post #1):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17261

3) Telekinesis (regular or astral). That is, "astral telekinesis" (moving physical objects while you are in the astral plane), or "regular telekinesis" (moving physical objects while you are in the physical plane). Both types of telekinesis will be a valid way to provide proof of anormal phenomenon from the stand point of the scientific community. There are many types of experiments that could be set up if this could be done. For instance, you could use an Analog to Digital Convertor (ADC) to convert the analog signals (of the moving objects) into digital signals that could be input and saved in a computer ("0" and "1"). That's like writing in the hard disk of a computer. We've talked about it in this thread:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202
Check comments from AstralBorn in page 4 and 5:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=30

One question: did you try to touch, move or pick up the butterfly or the bee?

In another post I will make further comments about the three methods.

Un saludo. qbeac.

P.S. 1. (*1) Note: when I say "the reality of these experiences", I mean "reality" from the reference point of the physical plane, because in theory there could be other planes just as real as the physical one. So we are taking about "relative realities."

P.S. 2. Addional info and ideas about Group OBE experiments:

- A single controller could perfectly handle several projectors at the same time. The controller would only need to change the target whenever a projector reads it (or sees it). If the target could be change automatically, such as with a computer screen in which the different images were changed frequently, the job of the controller would be very easy.

- If several projectors work with a single controller, the probabilities of some of them meeting in the same place (right by the target) at the same time, increases. That could be a good and interesting experiment all by itself. Later on, according to the accounts of people who may meet in the astral plane by the target, we may design a more sophisticated set up in order to verify "mathematically significant" information that the projectors may exchange among each other, and incorporate all the necessary security measures. This might require for some projectors to stay temporarily in a control environment (Ex: a lab) so that there is not any possible way the exchange information before the experiment is over... but we'll see how things develop, we'll go step by step.

- Another idea: the "projector" may work comfortably at home. The "controller" may be any voluntary student from any university or university hospital, who agrees to sleep that night in a controlled room (locked up, isolated, with an alarm button near by, of course, etc.). There are many students in the universities, and I don't think we will run short of voluntaries.

Now then, the student would have to memorize a specific target that only he will know because it has been automatically generated by a computer which is inside his room (or in a closed box with a glass on it, so that you can look at it but cannot manipulate it). Therefore, nobody else, besides the student, will know what the target is. And the computer will record the target inside the hard drive. The student will be the intermediary between the information (originated in the computer) and the projector, who will have to come and get it from the student.

If a projector can "talk" to the student in the astral plane and the student can "tell" him what the specific information is, next morning we could verify if both pieces of information coincide or not.... Well, something like that, do you get the idea? What do you think? Any suggestions are welcome.

We encourage any projector to help with this common venture. It will be fun and we all may collaborate to build a better world and a better future for mankind (Please, remember Howard Storm's NDE).

Please, if you may know other projectors, tell them about this experiment. Thanks.

Please, if you may know any serious researcher (doctor, scientists, etc.) who may be interested in the experiment, tell them about it.

This experiment may last for several months, maybe a few years. So, let's take it easy, let's go step by step, and let's enjoy the ride.

[qbeac]

Hi Tombo, in another thread I posted my opinion about these types of experiments, and since this thread is also related to the same subject, please, let me copy here again the same post I posted at link: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=183504#183504

This is it:

To begin with, I must say that I already believe these experiences are real, among other reasons because I have had several ones myself, and I don't need further proof "for myself" (I have my "Level 1 validation" and that's good enough for me). Also, when I say "real" experiences as opposed to "imaginary" experiences, I mean it from the stand point of the scientific community, which only accepts as "real" the physical world (Ex: there could be many other "real" planes other than the physical plane). So, when I say "real" I mean "real from the reference point of the physical plane."

But if these experiences were to be "real from the reference point of the physical plane", that would have a tremendous importance for the scientific community, because it would imply that a human being can do things that they thought were IMPOSIBLE according to current scientific knowledge. Therefore, they would have to change, modify or update current scientific books. And that's a VERY big deal for modern science (for medicine, psychology, psychiatry, physics, etc.)!

Further more, in the case we could obtain scientific proof that AP are "real" experiences, and considering that nowadays just about everybody can have easy accesses to this "new" knowledge via the modern means of communication (specially via Internet, forums, etc.), it seems to me that we may be on the verge of an evolutionary change in society, or an evolutionary leap forward, and I mean a positive change. In other words, we may be on the verge of a huge paradigm shift, probably bigger and better than the previous ones (Ex: Galileo, Newton, Einstein...).
 
But in order for that change to happen, or to not be blocked, or to proceed, or to happen with a greater speed, or to consolidate itself, in my opinion, it is necessary to obtain empirical proof, or scientific proof, or conclusive proof that these experiences are "real" and not imaginary (please, remember, "real" according to the physical plane).
 
The scientific community has the key to facilitate or to promote that change, or the contrary, to block it or delay it. Because if the scientific community officially validates these experiences, that will open the door for the public recognition and acceptance of these experiences by the rest of humanity, and vice versa.
 
This situation is kind of similar to what happened in Galileo's time: first a great deal of opposition and rejection, but later on, and as the evidence kept piling up, it was simply impossible to deny it.

Therefore, if the final goal we all seem to agree upon is for just about every body in the world to have access to this new knowledge and to try to AP for themselves, so that they can spiritually grow and together build a better world, a happier world, with more justice, more tolerance, more solidarity, more love, etc.... if that's what we all want, it seems to me that the scientific community, for better or worse, has an important role to play in this process right now, because if the scientific community validates theses experiences as "real", the process will accelerate and more people will be able to practice AP sooner. But if the scientific community keeps on believing these experiences are "imaginary", the process will slow down or even be blocked during who knows how many more years or decades.

So, that's why I am personally so much interested in the scientific proof, more for macro-reasons rather than for micro-reasons. Scientific proof could facilitate or even speed up the whole process. But, that's only my personal opinion, and I might be wrong, I am not sure.

I would like to add one more thing:

Regarding the experiments we are doing, we are willing to adjust every single experiment to the circumstances and particularities of any projector, since we are very much aware that this is an experiment with "human beings", and each person may need a different environment to feel comfortable. Also, we believe natural phenomenon does not need to adapt to Science, on the contrary, it is Science the one that should try to adapt to natural phenomenon.

Un saludo, qbeac.

[qbeac]

Hi Tombo, just a couple of ideas:

- What if you place more than one object, and not a single one? Perhaps you could use a combination of different objects (even papers of different colours?). Will all of those objects be equally distorted?

- Could you try to place the different objects not too close together, maybe a little or a lot farther apart, or on top of different pieces of furniture? Perhaps there are areas in your room that are more prone to present distortions than other ones?

I say this because William Buhlman relates in his book (Adventures beyond the body) that in his living room there were several tables, and some of them appeared just the same as in the physical plane, but another one did not (It looked like a very old table, or of a different style).

- By the "target object" (the one you don't know what it is), you could place a "reference object" (an object that you already know what it is). This is a similar idea as the "reference numbers" we place in front of the two words of the Agnostic Method, see this link:

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences. Post #
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Read the section titled: "2- Hints to help the projector reading the words correctly:"

Brief excerpt:

A) Write in front of the words 2 distinct numbers that the projector (the one having OBEs) already knows before hand from the physical plane (he can even choose this numbers himself) in order to help him "focus" better on the words. If the projector is not able to recognize the numbers (while in the OBE state) that he already knew from the physical plane, that will be a sign that something is going wrong, and vice versa. For example, the projector already knows the numbers 25 and 47, but not the words, so we would write in the paper something like this:

25 HORSE
47 DOOR

Un saludo, qbeac.

[Kazbadan]

I have a very simple document, made in Excel, taht allows one person to create a random number (5 digits but you can easly have a 2,3.6...digits number).

I just dont know how and where to put the file. If you are interested Tombo, or other person, just pm and give me your email. Btw, its a very easy thing to do with Excel, just ensure that when generating and printing the number, you wont look into it.

[Ben K]

Hello everybody

Once again i did a verification experiment. I will just describe what happened and then we can discuss it.

Ok

Experimental Setting

My girlfriend placed a object on top of the wardrobe. This can be anything, but it should be fairly small, 3-dimensional and unique. She used things like a needle, hair clip, or a ball of wool in the past.

Why this setting?

I use this setting because  to me it seems very difficult to guess the object since it can virtually be anything. At least the chance to guess is way smaller then, for example guessing a playing card.
I also figured, it may be easier to perceive a real object compared to a abstract number for example. Also the goal of this experiments is not to proof anything but to explore the possibility of proof.

Outcome
I already did this experiment a couple of times in the past. Did it again twice this morning and the outcome is comparable each time.

Ok so here we go:

1. attempt

I awoke in the morning and still felt the sleep paralysis, so I figured this may be a good opportunity to project. I managed to "crawl" away from me body and moved to the living room (where the wardrobe is at) after about 30 sec my sight became brighter and I saw the wardrobe in front of me (the projection was weak, I almost lost focus a couple of times). I picked the bowl where the object was placed in and looked at it. To my surprise a Butterfly fluttered inside the bowl. I was aware of the fact, that it is highly unlikely that my girlfriend placed a butterfly inside the bowl, but I hoped that the real target may have a relation to a butterfly. That very moment I was pulled back to me body.

I did not move and managed to split from my body again

2. Attempt

I again moved to the wardrobe and this time remembered that Robert bruce once said, I should try to pull energy to the astral body trough breathing to enhance clarity. I did so and felt I vibrating sensation on my forehead (brow chakra)
I again looked inside the bowl and the my surprise saw a living bee that was humming there . I clearly say the yellow orange color of the bee with black sparkles.

What was the real target?

The real target was a tube of skin cream?! even with fantasy i can't find any match between a Butterfly a bee and skin cream :confused:

Questions

-Am I doing something wrong?
- what could I do to perceive the real object?
-what interpretations and conclusions can i draw from this experiments?
-any hints, ideas, suggestions, comments?

remark

After the second attempt a flow out of the window. There a saw a freeway right behind our house (in reality there is no freeway within 3 miles)
I found this perfectly normal. It didn't even cross my mind that there is no such freeway in reality. it actually felt very familiar! perfectly normal.

Was I not enough aware to do the experiments properly?

Best Regards Tom and sorry for the long post

Tombo read this post by Frank and see if theres anything you like:

"Having a lucid-dream is basically the Monroe Focus 22 state, only with a reduced level of conscious awareness. Focus 22 is the first proper realm where thought-equals-direct-action. I say "proper" because, technically, this thought/action effect comes about at the Physical-to-Astral bridge-zone at mental Focus 21.

I agree wholeheartedly with Daniel in his point that one of the biggest challenges is to conciliate formal mechanical logic with multidimensional logic. This hurdle is presented by the fact that, when we project, we don't in turn develop some super-sense of conscious awareness all primed and geared for Astral use. On the contrary, the sense of conscious awareness you take with you to the Astral is the very same one you have now. All of which means you tend to behave like a fish out of water the first 10 or 20 times you project.

To help overcome this hurdle, you need to gain a fair degree of understanding about the basic nature of the Astral environment, and the different ground-rules that apply. We have to gain familiarity with these basic rules in much the same way as we do when first entering the Physical. For example, perhaps the one most basic Physical rule (we gain familiarity with rather quickly!) is that no two physical things can occupy the same physical space.

A person who could not get the hang of this basic rule would forever have difficulties. Not only would they be forever bumping into things, pursuits such as driving a car, for instance, would be nigh on impossible.

Same thing applies with Astral exploration where, without an understanding of the basic ground rules, people will keep running into difficulties.

One of the main difficulties is presented by the fact that releasing emotions within the Astral environment acts as a kind of fuel that goes to creating the circumstances that surround you. This is a *tricky* one to overcome because these circumstances can seem just as real, and equally as lifelike, as circumstances are within the Physical. So if you release a little fear (very common) you will instantly find yourself in a mildly fearful circumstance.

Problem is, finding yourself all of a sudden in a scary situation will normally have the effect of making you even more fearful. So the situation will instantly become that much more scary; which makes you more scared; so it gets that much more scary; which makes you even more scared; so it gets that much more scary; and so on, and so on.......

If that were not bad enough, there is another basic rule which says, "Your experiences and/or circumstances are primarily governed by your expectations." Therefore, if you expect to encounter demons and dragons... then demons and dragons you shall encounter.

But that's not all. There's another basic rule which says, "like instantly attracts like." So it won't only be you having these horrific experiences. Chances are, you'll be surrounded by countless others all suffering the same fate.

Such a group concensus will naturally have the effect of reinforcing your beliefs to a high degree. Bringing into play the basic rule which says, "Your ability to perceive is proportional to your willingness to believe." In other words, the more you believe the Astral is a nasty and dangerous place, the more readily you will perceive it as such.

Bearing all this in mind, you need then to be careful how you go about things... else all manner of reality fluctuations can come about. For example, it is only natural that you should question your experiences. This is a great way to make progress provided the questioning aspect comes about as a result of natural curiosity. Over years of trial and error, I found the best most productive mental state to have while within the Astral realms: is to remain emotionally neutral, while maintaining a natural air of mild curiosity.

However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

Then, just like in my release of fear example above, finding yourself all of a sudden in a situation where your doubts are justified, will normally have the effect of making you feel even more doubtful; so your circumstances will instantly become such that your doubts are reinforced all the more; which in turn makes you doubt all the more still; and so on, and so on.......

It's unfortunate that now and again I come across a person who once managed to successfully project to the Astral and subsequently concluded that it was all some kind of brain-generated fantasy.

We had someone come onto this BBS last year who was adamant on this. From reading into where they were coming from, it was obvious the person had been projecting to the Focus 22 state while releasing feelings of doubt. Of course, this person's doubts were immediately reinforced each time to the extent where they became utterly convinced their doubts were 110% genuine. All of which then blinded this person to the facts about what had truly taken place.

As for wanting "proof" and such like. A popular idea is the one about having someone else place a playing card or some other object out of sight, and so forth. But what I would suggest is you learn to become more proficient at projection and all the proof you can handle will be fed to you by the bucketload.

Yours,
Frank"

[Tombo]

Who cares if you missed the intended target..whoohooo for you Tombo!!  Don't cha just love that "crawling" away? hehe..

Take Care!

Nay

Yes I'm addicted to it hehe....

I wish ya'll would stop with the tests and just enjoy yourselves.

Why?

[Tombo]

Hi Tombo, first of all, thank you very much for posting your experiments, I find them very interesting and helpful to anybody who might attempt similar tests.

Let me give you a few brief ideas that just occurred to me about it:

- To begin with, I must say I am not an expert with AP, so I could not tell you what is best to do to try to avoid the distortions between the physical plane and the astral plane. I wish some experienced projectors could give some wise advice about it: useful techniques, mental control, mental power, etc.

- In the Spanish Science forum we have thought of at least three different ways to try to obtain proof of the "reality" of these experiences (*1):

1) Watching the physical plane while you are in the astral plane and reporting on it correctly (that's what you are trying to do now). If this could be done, it would be great because it is the simplest experiment. However, it presents the difficulty of the distortions between the astral and the physical planes: the problem of the RTZ (Real Time Zone).

2) Group OBE. Trying to communicate with another person who is also in the astral plane with you (Ex: two experienced projectors... or anybody, really). That way, even if you don't meet with that person in the physical plane (perhaps you could meet with him/her in other planes?), you could still communicate with him/her and exchange relevant information that could be verified later, like in this example:

- "Faraway can be so close..." (Post #1):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17261

3) Moving physical objects while you are in the astral plane. There are many types of experiments that could be set up if this could be done. For instance, you could use an Analog to Digital Convertor (ADC) to convert the analog signals (of the moving objects) into digital signals that could be input and saved in a computer ("0" and "1"). That's like writing in the hard disk of a computer. We've talked about it in this thread:

- Can you move a physical object from the astral plane?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202
Check comments from AstralBorn in page 4 and 5:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21202&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=30

One question: did you try to touch, move or pick up the butterfly or the bee?

In another post I will make further comments about the three methods.

Un saludo. qbeac.

(*1) Note: when I say "the reality of these experiences", I mean "reality" from the reference point of the physical plane, because in theory there could be other planes just as real as the physical one. So we are taking about "relative realities."

Thx Qbeac

right know I believe that number one is the easiest method therefore I stick to that. i could try to contact my girlfriend next time though. may try that .-)

And yes I did pick up the bee, the butterfly fluttered away........

I like that:

(*1) Note: when I say "the reality of these experiences", I mean "reality" from the reference point of the physical plane, because in theory there could be other planes just as real as the physical one. So we are taking about "relative realities

[Tombo]

Hi Tombo, just a couple of ideas:

- What if you place more than one object, and not a single one? Perhaps you could use a combination of different objects (even papers of different colours?). Will all of those objects be equally distorted?

- Could you try to place the different objects not too close together, maybe a little or a lot farther apart, or on top of different pieces of furniture? Perhaps there are areas in your room that are more prone to present distortions than other ones?

I say this because William Buhlman relates in his book (Adventures beyond the body) that in his living room there were several tables, and some of them appeared just the same as in the physical plane, but another one did not (It looked like a very old table, or of a different style).

- By the "target object" (the one you don't know what it is), you could place a "reference object" (an object that you already know what it is). This is a similar idea as the "reference numbers" we place in front of the two words of the Agnostic Method, see this link:

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences. Post #
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Read the section titled: "2- Hints to help the projector reading the words correctly:"

Brief excerpt:

A) Write in front of the words 2 distinct numbers that the projector (the one having OBEs) already knows before hand from the physical plane (he can even choose this numbers himself) in order to help him "focus" better on the words. If the projector is not able to recognize the numbers (while in the OBE state) that he already knew from the physical plane, that will be a sign that something is going wrong, and vice versa. For example, the projector already knows the numbers 25 and 47, but not the words, so we would write in the paper something like this:

25 HORSE
47 DOOR

Un saludo, qbeac.

Yes good ideas I will think about it. actually I expect even the number that i know to have distortions. i already observed that fact in the past. Things that I exactly knew how they should look like were distorted.

But good ideas I should give them a try.

Cu Tom

[Nay]

Who cares if you missed the intended target..whoohooo for you Tombo!!  Don't cha just love that "crawling" away? hehe..

Take Care!

Nay

Yes I'm addicted to it hehe....

I wish ya'll would stop with the tests and just enjoy yourselves.

Why?

Oh, don't get me wrong..ya'll test away!  To me it just takes away from the experience...gives it a sterile feeling..lol.  But I know that the forums are quite full of you science minded people and that's cool.

Nay

[Tombo]

[Tombo read this post by Frank and see if theres anything you like:

"Having a lucid-dream is basically the Monroe Focus 22 state, only with a reduced level of conscious awareness. Focus 22 is the first proper realm where thought-equals-direct-action. I say "proper" because, technically, this thought/action effect comes about at the Physical-to-Astral bridge-zone at mental Focus 21.

I agree wholeheartedly with Daniel in his point that one of the biggest challenges is to conciliate formal mechanical logic with multidimensional logic. This hurdle is presented by the fact that, when we project, we don't in turn develop some super-sense of conscious awareness all primed and geared for Astral use. On the contrary, the sense of conscious awareness you take with you to the Astral is the very same one you have now. All of which means you tend to behave like a fish out of water the first 10 or 20 times you project.

To help overcome this hurdle, you need to gain a fair degree of understanding about the basic nature of the Astral environment, and the different ground-rules that apply. We have to gain familiarity with these basic rules in much the same way as we do when first entering the Physical. For example, perhaps the one most basic Physical rule (we gain familiarity with rather quickly!) is that no two physical things can occupy the same physical space.

A person who could not get the hang of this basic rule would forever have difficulties. Not only would they be forever bumping into things, pursuits such as driving a car, for instance, would be nigh on impossible.

Same thing applies with Astral exploration where, without an understanding of the basic ground rules, people will keep running into difficulties.

One of the main difficulties is presented by the fact that releasing emotions within the Astral environment acts as a kind of fuel that goes to creating the circumstances that surround you. This is a *tricky* one to overcome because these circumstances can seem just as real, and equally as lifelike, as circumstances are within the Physical. So if you release a little fear (very common) you will instantly find yourself in a mildly fearful circumstance.

Problem is, finding yourself all of a sudden in a scary situation will normally have the effect of making you even more fearful. So the situation will instantly become that much more scary; which makes you more scared; so it gets that much more scary; which makes you even more scared; so it gets that much more scary; and so on, and so on.......

If that were not bad enough, there is another basic rule which says, "Your experiences and/or circumstances are primarily governed by your expectations." Therefore, if you expect to encounter demons and dragons... then demons and dragons you shall encounter.

But that's not all. There's another basic rule which says, "like instantly attracts like." So it won't only be you having these horrific experiences. Chances are, you'll be surrounded by countless others all suffering the same fate.

Such a group concensus will naturally have the effect of reinforcing your beliefs to a high degree. Bringing into play the basic rule which says, "Your ability to perceive is proportional to your willingness to believe." In other words, the more you believe the Astral is a nasty and dangerous place, the more readily you will perceive it as such.

Bearing all this in mind, you need then to be careful how you go about things... else all manner of reality fluctuations can come about. For example, it is only natural that you should question your experiences. This is a great way to make progress provided the questioning aspect comes about as a result of natural curiosity. Over years of trial and error, I found the best most productive mental state to have while within the Astral realms: is to remain emotionally neutral, while maintaining a natural air of mild curiosity.

However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

Then, just like in my release of fear example above, finding yourself all of a sudden in a situation where your doubts are justified, will normally have the effect of making you feel even more doubtful; so your circumstances will instantly become such that your doubts are reinforced all the more; which in turn makes you doubt all the more still; and so on, and so on.......

It's unfortunate that now and again I come across a person who once managed to successfully project to the Astral and subsequently concluded that it was all some kind of brain-generated fantasy.

We had someone come onto this BBS last year who was adamant on this. From reading into where they were coming from, it was obvious the person had been projecting to the Focus 22 state while releasing feelings of doubt. Of course, this person's doubts were immediately reinforced each time to the extent where they became utterly convinced their doubts were 110% genuine. All of which then blinded this person to the facts about what had truly taken place.

As for wanting "proof" and such like. A popular idea is the one about having someone else place a playing card or some other object out of sight, and so forth. But what I would suggest is you learn to become more proficient at projection and all the proof you can handle will be fed to you by the bucketload.

Yours,
Frank"

Thx Ben K

You seem to have a good overview of Franks posts , which is good I mean he is my personal hereo sorts of. So whenever I'm looking for something Frank may have written about I shall talk to you first    

And Yes I found the things Frank explains very interesting! Indeed i had I slight feel of doubt in my mind when I did the experiements so maybe the Butterfly appeared to reflect that feel?

I will try to stay as neutral as possible next time

thanks you all and cu Tom

[qbeac]

Yes good ideas I will think about it. actually I expect even the number that i know to have distortions. i already observed that fact in the past. Things that I exactly knew how they should look like were distorted.

But good ideas I should give them a try.

Cu Tom

Hi Tom, one of the things our projector has asked us to do is the following, and perhaps you could try something similar with the objects? This is it:

Instead of placing for him only one target: one piece of paper with the two words written on it and with the two reference numbers he already knows, we are going to use several similar targets, that is, the reference numbers and the two words will be the same, but the colours of the ink will be different (black, red, blue, etc.), and the material of the paper may also be different (regular paper, cardboard, wood, etc.).

Also, the different targets will be placed in different parts of the room, some of them will be close to each other, and some other ones further apart. The idea is to try to minimize the distortion at least in some of the targets.

He would have to see them all and try to decide if any of them is not distorted... maybe they will all be distorted... Maybe only a few of them will be distorted...

We don't know yet what the outcome of this experiment is going to be because we have not done it yet, but we are about to do it.

Chao. Qbeac.

[qbeac]

Hi, we are talking about the RTZ in another forum, and it seems there is a person over there who knows a lot about the RTZ, tricks, how to improve your visual clarity, how to avoid distortions, etc.

You'll see the conversation at link:

http://www.astralweb.org/astralforums/3_2470.html

[Nay]

Heheheh..  Mystic Web!!  Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!!! :tantrum:

[qbeac]

Hi Nay, why do you say that? Is there anything in particular about that web? It is the first time I enter there, and I met a person who seems to be an experienced projector, but other than that, I know nothing about that web. Please, is there any thing wrong with it? Thanks. qbeac.

[Nay]

It was the first place I found when I first started looking on the internet about projection and lets just say that the minute they told me NOT to talk about my dreams to anyone, I promptly left and found the Astral Pulse.  Not to mention I do not call anyone, Master...:sick:

We had a very large thread about it a couple years ago and then Adrian was threatened with a lawsuit (laughable) but we took it down just so the guy would stop whining.  

If it feels right to you, by all means do not stop going there.

Nay  :seeya:

[skropenfield]

tricks, how to improve your visual clarity, how to avoid distortions, etc.

A simple trick is may be so to say a group-projection, a few people projects simultaneously from the same room...and to the same target. The question what "clarity" etc. of "astral senses" have a group deserves may be the closest attention. At all-may be some simple models are promising purely PRACTICALLY (unlike some psycho-babble). Imagine for example OBE in simple case as linear moving away of subtle bodies from physical body IN THE SAME EUCLIDEAN (PHYSICAL) SPACE in sense of substance dualism. At once in such model you can make many questions! What is the stereo-basis of "astral sight"? What kind of fields perceives the "astral sight" (for example psi-quantum component of EM fields)? Does the resting neuronal activity (brain) influence the "projecting entity"? Etc.etc.  :monkey:

[qbeac]

Hi everybody, I wish you a Happy New Year 2006!!!

I have been updating a little bit the instructions of the Agnostic Method. You'll find it at link:

- Method to verify if OBE are real or imaginary experiences (See Post #1 to Post #4)
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20907

Also, an experienced projector whose nick is Gav has written a very good article about the RTZ (Real Time Zone) in which he gives hints, suggestions and advice about how to avoid the distortions that sometimes appear between the astral plane and the physical plane. He has already given me his permission to share his document as long as everybody observes his desire of keeping his document intact. You'll see his "copyright instructions" at the end of his document.

This is the link:

- Gav's Word document about the RTZ. I really encourage you to take a look at it.
http://www.future-horizons.co.uk/doc/A_Short_Discourse_On_OBE_Perception.doc

- Converstaion with Gav at lilacsky forum (you may have to register to see it).
Section: Research and Study's
Thread: Are Astral Travel and OBE real or imaginary experi
http://lilacsky.proboards39.com/index.cgi?board=study&action=display&thread=1135185352

Chao. qbeac.

[Gav]

Hi Qbeac,

I have now read through the full details of your agnostic method.

To be honest I am very impressed, the entire project seems incredibly well thought out and not just from a scientific point of view but also from a projectors point of view, your expectations are modest and agree with what a projector would see as possible.

The largest problem you will encounter as indeed you have already detailed at length is issues with the projector creating and dreaming the validation target.  Validation of a specific target is extremely hard, as the projector knows exactly what they are looking for.

This is not impossible however, and as you state it only requires that a few correct hits are scored for the evidence to be acceptable.  

Now depending on how well your projectors are doing a couple of alterations could be made.  For example a protocol could be put in place to prevent the projector from knowing in advance what the target should be.

This would require either additional help by a controller as in your level 2 validation, or the use of some computer software.  The later would be the most practical as it would still enable projectors to practice alone.

The reason to remove as much knowledge of the target as possible until the point of validation is it makes the target must less tangible to the projector before hand.  Instead of knowing that they must see a selection of words, cards or numbers, they know simply that something is going to be in the room which they must validate.

This way the scope for self creation of the target is much reduced.

You raised an excellent idea with the reality check of reading a piece of text clearly before proceeding.  This is an excellent guide to focus, even if self created it still implies the idea of focusing to the projector.  This could even be extended to include a poster on the wall at the exit location.

Personally once hypnogogic I do not leave my body until I have gained focus and verified the objectivity of the exit location.  By placing a poster on the wall in this location that states simply.  "Take you time, Focus, Now validate your target" we have an excellent reminder to the projector of what the purpose was and until that poster can be observed an exit should not even be attempted.

It is easier to clean up confusion before an exit is made then handle it once OBE.

You mention meeting people and exchanging information whilst OBE.  This is likely to be easier than the other validation method, so long as the people meeting have some kind of connection.

It is a very regular occurrence to gain some information from someone whilst OBE, but often the person who provided the information has no recollection of the meeting.  I think this makes it hard to prove the OBE aspect, in that it could be seen as a stronger indication of psychic connection.

It may be possible to describe the location of a person, I have had some experiences where I have been able to very accurately describe the contents, and look of someone else's location whilst they were sleeping.  This would no doubt become much harder when used as a specific validation target though.

This is all a very fantastic experiment and I would encourage as many projectors as possible to be willing to take part and help out.

As for my own participation I am happy to help and even to participate in the experiments, I am however pretty much unavailable until the 18th of January due to work commitment.  After that point I will happily take part in the experiment.

Also earlier I spoke of software that could be used to randomize the validation target.  A piece of software or a web application could be used that would display at random one of the target medium to the variance required mathematically.  It could incorporate a delay so that the projector would not have to see even a hint of the target in advance.  Words, images or text could be displayed, even audio or video could be played for later validation possibilities.  Further to this logging of results could be entered directly into this application or web application so that statistics could be automatically registered as projectors completed the experiments.

Personally I believe it makes most sense to use a web application, as then all results can be compiled onto a central database so you can get a better view of what is happening in real time.

Just so happens that I am a software engineer, and at my point of being available which would be 18th January onwards I would be happy to program the suggested application and website, for free obviously, to the specification of the experiment.

We can talk on this more later and in detail if you would like to proceed as it could be tailored exactly to your needs.

Kind Regards
Gav

[qbeac]

Hi Qbeac,

I have now read through the full details of your agnostic method.

To be honest I am very impressed, the entire project seems incredibly well thought out and not just from a scientific point of view but also from a projectors point of view, your expectations are modest and agree with what a projector would see as possible.

The largest problem you will encounter as indeed you have already detailed at length is issues with the projector creating and dreaming the validation target.  Validation of a specific target is extremely hard, as the projector knows exactly what they are looking for.

This is not impossible however, and as you state it only requires that a few correct hits are scored for the evidence to be acceptable.  

Now depending on how well your projectors are doing a couple of alterations could be made.  For example a protocol could be put in place to prevent the projector from knowing in advance what the target should be.

This would require either additional help by a controller as in your level 2 validation, or the use of some computer software.  The later would be the most practical as it would still enable projectors to practice alone.

The reason to remove as much knowledge of the target as possible until the point of validation is it makes the target must less tangible to the projector before hand.  Instead of knowing that they must see a selection of words, cards or numbers, they know simply that something is going to be in the room which they must validate.

This way the scope for self creation of the target is much reduced.

You raised an excellent idea with the reality check of reading a piece of text clearly before proceeding.  This is an excellent guide to focus, even if self created it still implies the idea of focusing to the projector.  This could even be extended to include a poster on the wall at the exit location.

Personally once hypnogogic I do not leave my body until I have gained focus and verified the objectivity of the exit location.  By placing a poster on the wall in this location that states simply.  "Take you time, Focus, Now validate your target" we have an excellent reminder to the projector of what the purpose was and until that poster can be observed an exit should not even be attempted.

It is easier to clean up confusion before an exit is made then handle it once OBE.

You mention meeting people and exchanging information whilst OBE.  This is likely to be easier than the other validation method, so long as the people meeting have some kind of connection.

It is a very regular occurrence to gain some information from someone whilst OBE, but often the person who provided the information has no recollection of the meeting.  I think this makes it hard to prove the OBE aspect, in that it could be seen as a stronger indication of psychic connection.

It may be possible to describe the location of a person, I have had some experiences where I have been able to very accurately describe the contents, and look of someone else's location whilst they were sleeping.  This would no doubt become much harder when used as a specific validation target though.

This is all a very fantastic experiment and I would encourage as many projectors as possible to be willing to take part and help out.

As for my own participation I am happy to help and even to participate in the experiments, I am however pretty much unavailable until the 18th of January due to work commitment.  After that point I will happily take part in the experiment.

Also earlier I spoke of software that could be used to randomize the validation target.  A piece of software or a web application could be used that would display at random one of the target medium to the variance required mathematically.  It could incorporate a delay so that the projector would not have to see even a hint of the target in advance.  Words, images or text could be displayed, even audio or video could be played for later validation possibilities.  Further to this logging of results could be entered directly into this application or web application so that statistics could be automatically registered as projectors completed the experiments.

Personally I believe it makes most sense to use a web application, as then all results can be compiled onto a central database so you can get a better view of what is happening in real time.

Just so happens that I am a software engineer, and at my point of being available which would be 18th January onwards I would be happy to program the suggested application and website, for free obviously, to the specification of the experiment.

We can talk on this more later and in detail if you would like to proceed as it could be tailored exactly to your needs.

Kind Regards
Gav

Hi Gav, I appreciate very much all your comments. You were right on target. In summary: We have a good experiment going on, and that's great!

These are some brief ideas about the project:

- The Agnostic Method we have developed so far is Version 1, and we believe it is already, not a perfect version, but a working version. We started with Version 0.001 about a year ago (feb-05) in the Spanish Science forum (//www.100cia.com), so it's been a long way since then. Any improvements anybody may think of will be more than welcome and we will incorporate them to the current Version 1. This could be a project somewhat similar to Wikipedia, which encourages the participation of everybody. So, go ahead, we'll be delighted to hear all your comments.

- There are about 4 or 5 projectors from the Spanish Science forum who are already collaborating with the experiments, plus all the experience we have acquired by talking to many people in the AP forums. Therefore, Version 1 of the Agnostic Method has been the product of a joint effort among several scientists and projectors during a period of about one year by now.

- Again, we are not looking for perfect results (100% correct). You are right when you say that "a few correct hits will be enough." If they are mathematically significant in comparison to the "control group", they will be enough from the stand point of the scientific community.

- Any alterations, corrections, or improvements to the original protocol of the Agnostic Method that you consider will help you, the projector, we'll make them.

- This is important: We have already gotten in touch with several leading scientists in this field, and some of them have already told us they are interested or/and would be willing to help (Ex: The Monroe Institute, Dr. Jeff Long, Dr. Tart, etc.). Dr. Jeff Long has given permission to post an e-mail he has sent me. I will post it in the next post.

- The idea you give about placing a poster on the wall is very good. We should incorporate that into the protocol.

- Group OBEs are also valid experiments. This system maybe easier for the projectors and a little harder for scientists, since we may have to design a different set up, maybe a more complicated set up than the one for the Agnostic Method of reading the words, but it is not impossible to do at all!!! If necessary, we can do it too. We can discuss further the details of how it should be designed.

A couple of ideas about Group OBE experiments:

- A single controller could perfectly handle several projectors at the same time. The controller would only need to change the target whenever a projector reads it (or sees it). If the target could be change automatically, such as with a computer screen in which the different images were changed frequently, the job of the controller would be very easy.

- If several projectors work with a single controller, the probabilities of some of them meeting in the same place (right by the target) at the same time, increases. That could be a good and interesting experiment all by itself. Later on, according to the accounts of people who may meet in the astral plane by the target, we may design a more sophisticated set up in order to verify "mathematically significant" information that the projectors may exchange among each other, and incorporate all the necessary security measures. This might require for some projectors to stay temporarily in a control environment (Ex: a lab) so that there is not any possible way the exchange information before the experiment is over... but we'll see how things develop, we'll go step by step.

- Another idea: the "projector" may work comfortably at home. The "controller" may be any voluntary student from any university or university hospital, who agrees to sleep that night in a controlled room (locked up, isolated, with an alarm button near by, of course, etc.). There are many students in the universities, and I don't think we will run short of voluntaries.

Now then, the student would have to memorize a specific target that only he will know because it has been automatically generated by a computer which is inside his room (or in a closed box with a glass on it, so that you can look at it but cannot manipulate it). Therefore, nobody else, besides the student, will know what the target is. And the computer will record the target inside the hard drive. The student will be the intermediary between the information (originated in the computer) and the projector, who will have to come and get it from the student.

If a projector can "talk" to the student in the astral plane and the student can "tell" him what the specific information is, next morning we could verify if both pieces of information coincide or not.... Well, something like that, do you get the idea? What do you think? Any suggestions are welcome.

We encourage any projector to help with this common venture. It will be fun and we all may collaborate to build a better world and a better future for mankind (Please, remember Howard Storm's NDE).

-------------------

Please, if you may know other projectors, tell them about this experiment. Thanks.

Please, if you may know any serious researcher (doctor, scientists, etc.) who may be interested in the experiment, tell them about it.

This experiment may last for several months, maybe a few years. So, let's take it easy, let's go step by step, and let's enjoy the ride.

We'll stay in touch. Have a nice day. qbeac.

[qbeac]

Hi everybody, Dr. Jeff Long, one the founders of the NDERF (//www.nderf.org, Jody Long is his wife and the webmaster of that site), has given me permission to post an e-mail he sent me with his opinion of the experiments. We have also talked to other scientists and researchers, such as people from The Monroe Institute, Dr. Tart, and others, and some of them have already told us they interested in the experiments. We will keep you updated about the specifics of these talks. If any of you feel like talking to them directly, feel free to do it. Or if you may know any other serious researcher, please, tell them about this experiment. Thanks. qbeac.

This is Dr. Jeff Long e-mail:

Greetings!

Thanks for letting me know about this!  I am very happy that there is such interest in this in Spain!  I have reviewed your "Agnostic Method", and it is certainly very sound. If possible, another way to do this that might be even more valid, would be to develop a computer program that could be started.  There would be a delay, and then the program would show a series of ordered words, pictures, and background color.  These combinations of words, pictures and background color could alternate every five minutes or so.  If an OBEr thinks they saw this, they could e-mail someone, and see if what they saw was possible from the programming.  Of course there is the possibility of fraud with this, but for those sincere in taking the test, it could work.  If what they saw remotely was a possible combination, this would be strong evidence.  For example, the probability of getting one of 5 colors right, one of 100 words and one of 100 pictures would be one in (5*100*100) or one in 50,000, or 0.00002.  Of course with more word or picture options, the possible combinations would be even larger.  This might select out OBErs for further study.  Please feel free to put this idea on the forum, and see if anyone wants to write the program (such as in Visual Basic).  Please let me know if this idea goes anywhere.  I do not have the skills to personally write such a program.

Best regards, -Jeff Long


Another e-mail from Dr. Long:

"Thanks for your very thoughtful comments!  We (Jody and I) will be glad to talk about the Agnostic Method when we encounter any interested researchers.  I think your proposal to go through level 1, 2 and 3 is a very good idea.  Please keep us informed of postings on the 100cia.com web site.  We would be very interested to hear if anyone states they have been able to see hidden targets.

Best regards, -Jeff"

P.S. Information about Dr. Jeffrey P. Long, MD:
Curriculum Vitae: http://www.healthgrades.com/directory_search/physician/profiles/dr-md-reports/Dr-Jeffrey-Long-MD-FA9FC3D6.cfm
Specialties: Diagnostic Radiology, Hematology, Radiation Oncology, Radiological Physics, Radiology
Location: -1003 South 5th Street. Tacoma, Washington (WA)  98405
http://www.nderf.org/

- Newest Multimedia Video presentation from Dr. Jeff Long and Jody Long:
Soulmates 2004, Jody & Jeff
Presentation 44 min .wmv 43 MB"
http://www.nderf.org/SoulMate%206-04%20Presentation%20for%20Web.wmv

[skropenfield]

Methodology for Investigating the Hypothesis of
Anomalous Remote Perceptions as Objective Phenomena
Nelson Abreu, Science of Self Club, University of Florida

http://cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.doc

       

Even if one considers the question of whether the OBE is real as anachronistic, and even if lucid projection can provide us with a rough sketch of how the consciousness and the brain interact we do not know how this occurs in detail.  Lucid projectors (as well as clairvoyants and the practitioners of numerous vital energy, or chi, practices) observe a system or "body" of subtle energies that seems to form the interface and glue between the physical body and a more subtle body (psychosoma).  The interactions of this vehicle (holochakra) seem to be responsible for interpersonal or transpersonal and parapsychic or paranormal phenomena.  But how exactly does information and energy flow to and from the physical body? Is there a para-brain that the brain communicates with?  The answer to this question will emerge when the "two ends meet" – neuroscience and neurology from one side and projectiology and paraneurology from the other.  Each answer, generates more questions which remain such as: "why does the consciousness need a psychoma to communicate with the brain? Is the consciousness inserted in the parabrain or does it use yet another interface? If so, why? If these "bodies" exist in the same space-time are they in different frequencies or densities of reality with different degrees of insubstantiality? If the consciousness existed before birth, then why wouldn't we remember it?

In a 2002 BBC Radio debate, Dr. Olaf Blanke revealed that the epileptic patient - who unexpectedly reported out-of-body perceptions when her right-angular gyrus was stimulated - actually made visual observations of the operating room that the conventional scientific paradigm cannot explain. Even though he understandably excluded these details from the article published in the journal Nature, the Bern neuroscientist did not dismiss the possibility of the objective out-of-body experience, stating many more studies should be carried out.

Facilitation of replicable projectability...
   
Non-invasive electromagnetic stimulation...

[qbeac]

Hi skropenfield, the article you have indicated sounds very interesting, just like the other ones you told us before. Congratulations for all of them (I don't know how you can get such good articles ). These are the previous ones, just in case somebody missed them:

- Alternative Vision or Direct Vision Phenomenon. Russian study about people who are able to see with their eyes covered:
http://www.matrixf.com/Directvision.pdf

- Teleportation Physics Study (telekinesis)
AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY. AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND
EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE CA 93524-7048
APPROVED FOR PUBLIC RELEASE; DISTRIBUTION UNLIMITED.[/b]
Eric W. Davis. Warp Drive Metrics
4849 San Rafael Ave. Las Vegas, NV 89120
August 2004. Special Report
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf

Now then, I have tried to see the complete article of your previous post (http://cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.doc), but there seems to be something wrong with the link. Please, skropenfield, could you check it out? Thanks.

--------------

I have a question for everybody who may be able to Astral Project:

Please, everybody, do you think it would be possible for you to have a "meeting" in the astral plane with another person, and exchange information between the two of you? Have you ever tried that?  

For more details about what I mean with the "meeting", please, see Post #3, pag. 1 of this same thread:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21581&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

... and specifically the topic of Group OBE, which you'll find in section "2)" as well as in the second Post Statement of that post:

This would be an example of a meeting in the astral plane:

- "Faraway can be so close..." (Post #1):
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17261

Thanks a lot. qbeac.

[skropenfield]

I have tried to see the complete article of your previous post (http://cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.doc), but there seems to be something wrong with the link

     
Try right click- Save Target As...or  
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:lXtZ1kE3tiEJ:cref.tripod.com/tucsonpaper.doc