Is this stuff really true? (not a flame post)

[Adrian]

Greetings Heimdal!

You can only prove these realities for yourself by experiencing it fro yourself.  

I suggest that you take a look at the Astral consciousness forum rather than focus on the OBE state.

I just would like to make one comment on what you say - Astral projection is not a journey of the sub-conscious, but rather one of the super-conscious.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Heimdall:
I'm asking seriously, because I've tried for quite some time with no results.

Hey man....

Welcome to the board.  I know what you mean, because believe me, I was there.  Hell, look at my picture in my profile and you'll see that I look like your average fun-loving guy.... not some new age guru with a white flowing beard!

I say that because I used to say the same thing, and I know that if I can have an OBE, then ANYONE can!  It's kind of like the dumb kid in class getting an A on his book report assignment.  If HE can do it, then it should be possible for everyone else!

Anyway, believe it or not, what helped me achieve my first experience was to keep a dream journal.  I know, it sounds simple and it may seem like a real pain in the butt, but I guarantee you that it will help you out.  Just every time you wake up, keep a small notepad or something nearby.  Before you go about your day, lay there for a minute and try to recall EVERYTHING that you dreamed.  

What this ends up doing is reinforcing your mind to remember ALL things that you're experiencing while unconscious.  Once I started to do this, my dreams became more vivid and I rememered more of them.  Also, you start to realize that you dream every night......unlike my girlfriend, who says she only remembers a dream once in a blue moon.

Anyway, once you start to remember your dreams every night, your mind begins to build up it's 'perception muscle' (I just made that up) and it helps you to get to the 'mind awake, body asleep' state......which is exactly what you need to project.

Best of luck, man.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Heimdall:
I'm asking seriously, because I've tried for quite some time with no results.

This is normal. Some people make progress quick, some people make it slow. I make it slow... maybe you do too.

quote:
I have NOT had an OBE, to my knowledge.

The word "knowledge" here is the key point about this whole obe thing. Everyone "goes obe" all the while they are asleep... but... they have no knowledge of that fact. What you need to work on are the mental techniques (that will work for you) which will give you that knowledge.

quote:
To me, all it seems like is another form of meditation, where you can reach parts of your subconscious that are normally only available during dreams.  How can you all be sure that this is all true, that this is real?

Because once you get more adept, you can get in contact with those who guide you; chat to other Astral residents; etc. in a way that is as "real" as it feels whilst being within the Physical.

quote:
Have any of you met each other and shared time in this alternate reality, or had any other direct evidence that all of this just wasn't imagined?  To me, delving into subconscious realms like this can lead to a lot of false paths, as well as true ones.  How do you know that what you are experiencing is truly real and not your imagination?

One of the trickiest concepts to get your head around is the fact that what we call Thought, is a primary energy. Which means any uncontrolled release of thought-release-emotion within the Astral realms, will directly lead to fuelling the circumstances that surround you.

The key is to remain emotionally closed at all times with your thoughts in check. I found the best state of mind to have is just to maintain an air of mild curiosity. Otherwise, as you say, you will be led down many false paths. (Just like so many people have been led down in the past).

quote:
I've had inklings of what might be OBE, but to me it's something you have to be careful about because you can easily be fooled into thinking that it's real when it isn't.  You brain can fool itself, or make itself see/think what it wants to.

Yes, absolutely, I could not agree with you more on this point. Which is why, again, it is *doubly* essential to keep your thoughts in check.

Problem is, there are ever so many people who approach this "obe" topic as a result of having suffered some severe trauma in their lives: such as the loss of a child, or trying to "find themselves" after having suffered severe depression, etc. Difficulty being, all that mix of heavy emotion tends to lead them down a path where they become their very own self-fulfilling prophecy.

quote:
I guess I'm a little frusterated.  Haven't had a conscious OBE that has seemed just like reality like the others say, but I'd like your opinions.  Again, do not consider this a flame it's merely a question I'm posing.....

You just need to keep working at it. As I say, I make progress slow (very slow) so that makes at least two of us. It does take time. The main difficulty being keeping your thoughts in check. Once you can do that, you can be sure that what you are perceiving is reality.. as opposed to a product of your own sub-conscious ramblings.

Yours,
Frank

[Jacara]

quote:Have any of you met each other and shared time in this alternate reality, or had any other direct evidence that all of this just wasn't imagined? To me, delving into subconscious realms like this can lead to a lot of false paths, as well as true ones. How do you know that what you are experiencing is truly real and not your imagination?

I know what you mean, that does seem to me to be the best indication that it's not just in one's own head.  I believe Donna has referred to meeting people on the Astral before, or meeting OBE in a physical-world location.  Perhaps she can expound on anything her group jointly experienced that would confirm its objectivity.

[Blossom]

I have only  had one OBE, but all you need is one and then you will never doubt it again..  You KNOW it is real..

Don't quit trying..  I am still trying a second one.. I have heard they are all wonderful but I dont really see how anything could compare with my first...

Sincerely, Jenn

[PeacefulWarrior]

Listen to Frank, he knows what he is talking about...http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_approve.gif" border=0>

fides quaerens intellectum

[Heimdall]

Thanks all for the responses.  I'll keep hacking away at it.

For what it's worth, I have natural ability in other areas.  Auras, some clairvoyance and what I call "spirit sense" have always been a part of me.  My rational, scientific mind has rejected such things until recently which has made me wonder if I was crazy or not.  Of course, medically I am fine and a productive member of society. I just tend to question everything like this, after all the mind can make itself believe whatever it wants.  Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it), I have been unable to "scientifically" define all the phenomena that has happened to me.

After much inner debate over the past few days, I have discovered that I do remember at least one dream every night and some have been lucid for a limited time (i.e. I know I am dreaming, and actually change the course of my dreams consciously for a limited time) but this ability fades as I drift into dream realm.  I also remember my dreams changing from black and white (normal dreaming colors) to vivid color when I feel more myself (lucid).  So I guess that is my limited time with OBE.

I am able to very easily sense energy flow within my body, and activate chakras - most notably my third eye and my crown.  It has always been this way, and I know that I should work on the lower chakras first but for some reason the higher ones always activate first.

I have gotten as far as hearing a popping noise in my ears (much like putting a finger in your ear and removing it quicky) during conscious OBE attempts and then nothing.  Can't seem to get farther.....it's immensely frusterating.

I will take the advice of all that responded, and I thank you for your support and input.

By the way, I am in no way a mystic or an old man with a flowing beard either.  Quite the opposite.  I am extremely rational and scientific, what you would call a skeptic.  I don't do drugs, I don't believe everything I hear, I enjoy sports and auto racing, and to all intents and purposes to other people I am someone that would be as far from this kind of thing as possible.  But my natural ability has forced me to further explore these areas.  OBE seems to be one of my cherished "final frontiers" that I have yet to explore.

Again, thank you.  Now, if I could just get to the point of actually OBEing!!!!!  

[Frank]

quote:
By the way, I am in no way a mystic or an old man with a flowing beard either. Quite the opposite. I am extremely rational and scientific, what you would call a skeptic. I don't do drugs, I don't believe everything I hear, I enjoy sports and auto racing, and to all intents and purposes to other people I am someone that would be as far from this kind of thing as possible. But my natural ability has forced me to further explore these areas. OBE seems to be one of my cherished "final frontiers" that I have yet to explore.

What you say above is very interesting because in this respect we are very much alike. I too am a beardless skeptic with a keen interest in science; stay well clear of drugs, etc. and amazingly have a strong interest in drag racing. Plus, again like you, to all intents and purposes I am someone who you would think would be as far away from this kind of topic as was possible. Which can often lead me into some delightful situations where, at social functions, every now and again I meet someone who thinks they are being ever so daring and modern by mentioning something to do with the subject of obe's. Naturally, I keep my mouth firmly closed as the subject is still very much taboo. But I take great delight in asking just the right kind of "innocent question" at precisely the right point in the conversation.

Yours,
Frank

[n/a]

Heimdall,

I've only had a couple of OBEs due to lack of training and laziness
But what I have found is that Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics is outstanding. He troubleshoots the process and mentions that many people trying to project at bedtime may just fall asleep. If someone can go from a lucid dream to OBE that's great but I have found it easier to project when sitting upright in a chair before bedtime. When I have been tired I have not succeeded. Then again I've only had a couple of OBEs.

[clandestino]

Hi Heimdall !

re Frank's post :

"Naturally, I keep my mouth firmly closed as the subject is still very much taboo. But I take great delight in asking just the right kind of "innocent question" at precisely the right point in the conversation. "

This made me chuckle to myself, because unfortunately for me, I have neither :
a) Frank's ability to project, or
b) Frank's ability to keep his mouth shut !!

This has led to a couple of occasions where ( ok I admit it - i was a little bit drunk) I have told a couple of friends about my interests in OBE....the alcohol didn't seem to help me when it came to explaining what I know so far....can't think why.

Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure that a couple of my friends now think I'm slighlty unhinged !! Try not to end up like me....ha ha.
cheers,
Mark

[Heimdall]

Jeff,

Nice website......I found your comment about the "dumb kid getting the A" pretty amusing.  I don't know if you have ever seen the movie "Mall Rats", but I feel like that fat guy that can't see the picture even though everyone else can, no matter how hard he tries.

Frank,

I'm bound and determined to OBE.  I've started a dream journal and am trying OBE's while sitting.  Sometimes the simplest answer is the solution, but I'll try sitting up and laying down because when I'm laying down I tend to go way deep into trance.

I read some of the other threads, but the ones that stuck out the most were the ones where drugs (whether illegal or legal) were used to successfully create an OBE.  I admit that attempting this kind of thing all by yourself and without a mind-altering substance is harder, but to me the real thing only happens through hard work.  Shortcuts work in the short term but not the long term.  

So basically I've set myself up to keep trying for a long time, but it will be sweet when it finally happens.

And I've had to hold back talking about these kinds of things too.  In groups, religion and politics are never good things to talk about.  OBE and its kind can be considered religion IMO.  But it is difficult, especially when someone alludes to the fact that they try it too!

Talk to you later,
Chris

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Heimdall:
Jeff,

Nice website......I found your comment about the "dumb kid getting the A" pretty amusing.  I don't know if you have ever seen the movie "Mall Rats", but I feel like that fat guy that can't see the picture even though everyone else can, no matter how hard he tries.

Hey there,

Thanks for the compliments on my website.  And yes, not only have I seen Malrats but it's one of my favorite movies!  I love the scene where the fat guy yells at the little kids.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>



Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by booRadley:
Heimdall,

I've only had a couple of OBEs due to lack of training and laziness
But what I have found is that Robert Bruce's book Astral Dynamics is outstanding. He troubleshoots the process and mentions that many people trying to project at bedtime may just fall asleep.

Yes, you are absolutely right, it is a good book.

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by clandestino:
Hi Heimdall !

re Frank's post :

"Naturally, I keep my mouth firmly closed as the subject is still very much taboo. But I take great delight in asking just the right kind of "innocent question" at precisely the right point in the conversation. "

This made me chuckle to myself, because unfortunately for me, I have neither :
a) Frank's ability to project, or
b) Frank's ability to keep his mouth shut !!

This has led to a couple of occasions where ( ok I admit it - i was a little bit drunk) I have told a couple of friends about my interests in OBE....the alcohol didn't seem to help me when it came to explaining what I know so far....can't think why.

Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure that a couple of my friends now think I'm slighlty unhinged !! Try not to end up like me....ha ha.
cheers,
Mark

ROFL:

Hey, at your age I'd have been the very same.

Yours,
Frank

[Jon Icarus]

I have the same thoughts as Heimdall. What is really going on here ?
What is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE ? Many claim that dreams are really just projections with a lack of conciousness, but it can be argued that OBE's are really just another form of lucid dream (and in fact, experiments tend to support this).

The whole matter could easilly be settled with this experiment :

1. One person places something in a room (for instance, three playing cards with the faces up on a table), and records the symbols on a sheet of paper.

2. He hands this paper in a sealed envelope to a second person (the controller).

3. Someone else does an OBE, goes into the room and looks at the cards. He records the cards on another piece of paper as soon as he wakes up.

4. The controller compares the two records for similarity.

It's easy and inexpensive. If the records maches, then we can assume that the OBE really took place.







-- Jon Icarus

[Adrian]

Greetings Jon Icarus!

Nice to see you on the forums.

First of all, an OBE is not a projection into the physical world, it is rather a projection into the subtle level directly between the physical and the Astral - the etheric zone. The etheric zone is a reflection of the physical world only, but being subject to similar laws as the Astral is subject to reality fluctuations based upon your state of mind. These things are always then subjective and not objective, and acordingly difficult to prove - you will influence the desired result.

Lucid dreams can often be projections to the lowest Astral levels that correspond to either your own psyche, the group collective subsconscious - that is why those that become Lucid or project into this zone see most people as walking aimlessly about, and doing non-sensical (except to the dreamer) things.

The objective is a conscious projection to the true Astral levels, and phasing, as discussed in the Astral Consciousness forum is almost certainly the way to go.

Before you start though, you must free yourself of all doubt about Astral projection. Read these forums and decide for yourself.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Jon Icarus:
I have the same thoughts as Heimdall. What is really going on here ?
What is the difference between a lucid dream and an OBE ? Many claim that dreams are really just projections with a lack of conciousness, but it can be argued that OBE's are really just another form of lucid dream (and in fact, experiments tend to support this).

The whole matter could easilly be settled with this experiment :

1. One person places something in a room (for instance, three playing cards with the faces up on a table), and records the symbols on a sheet of paper.

2. He hands this paper in a sealed envelope to a second person (the controller).

3. Someone else does an OBE, goes into the room and looks at the cards. He records the cards on another piece of paper as soon as he wakes up.

4. The controller compares the two records for similarity.

It's easy and inexpensive. If the records maches, then we can assume that the OBE really took place.

-- Jon Icarus

Funny I just posted a response to virtually the same type of post on the other BBS which I post as follows:

Jon: This kind of point you raise crops up quite often. A person puts forward what seems, on the surface, to be a fair and logical proposition which involves proving the reality of the Astral in some way.

Problem is, what can often on the surface come across as a clear and logical argument; when looked at more closely, dissolves into nothing more than what I call: Astral Anthropomorphism.

Astral Anthropomorphism is a phrase I first coined (not that I'm gunning for recognition, I'm just telling you that so you won't be wondering why it's not yet in the dictionary). It's where a person attributes Physical-realm realities, characteristics, etc. to the Astral.

For example: mental constructs such as up; down; left; right; good; bad; positive; negative, etc. come in quite handy while within Physical-world reality. But within the Astral, these kinds of constructs have no real meaning.

Now, when you project your focal point of conscious awareness within the Astral, you don't automatically gain some super-sense of Astral consciousness all primed and geared towards Astral-realm reality... nope... it's the exact same sense of conscious awareness that you have with you on the Physical. And this has been perhaps the biggest Astral stumbling block ever faced by mankind.

The stumbling block is primarily caused by the fact that what we humans call "thought" is a primary energy. We don't notice it so much on the Physical, because our physical bodies buffer our thoughts to a high degree. In other words, you can sit back and think about having a beer all you like, but unless you physically go and get one from the fridge (or convince someone else to go) no beer is going to be had.

Within the Astral, however, there is no physical-body buffer protecting you from the full impact and/or consequences of whatever it is you happen to be thinking about. Which basically means as you think, so it becomes.

Okay, so imagine a slightly fearful circumstance and you will instantly find yourself in a slightly fearful Astral circumstance. The level of scaryness will exactly match the level of fear you are releasing. This is because it is *your* release of fear that is the fuel which powers the circumstances.

This concept tends to be a tricky one for people to get their heads around. Reason being, when a person finds themselves within those mildly fearful circumstances, they don't just think, "Ho hum, there I go releasing emotion" and wait patiently while the energy dissipates. What happens is they get ever more fearful; which makes the circumstances even worse, so they get ever more fearful; and so it becomes even worse. Eventually these kinds of emotion-fuelled loops are broken by a forced awakening back to Physical consciousness (C1), and the whole thing is considered a nightmare.

That's again where having a physical body saves you. In that you can always come back to C1 consciousness. Without it, it is possible to become trapped in your own emotion-fueled loop; which a lot of people are, hence the need for the whole retrieval process.

With these people, they became in circumstances where they no-longer had a physical body to retreat to. As this happened, they were thinking in a certain way; which instantly caused them to be in circumstances that caused them to continue thinking in that same certain way; which continually causes them to be surrounded by circumstances that cause them to continue thinking in that same certain way... ad infinitum.

When I say the word "circumstances" I mean circumstances that look, for all intents and purposes, just as real and/or as tangible as any Physical circumstance(s) would appear to a person. Again, it is quite possible to become entangled in such a loop in a dream. But it's not long before the alarm clock rings, or you get hungry, or need to use the toilet, etc. and so you wake up. But no such need exists within the Astral.

Now, coming back to your proposition, what you are saying is that I should doubt that what I am experiencing is true Astral reality. Further, I should fuel that doubt by entertaining the idea that what I am experiencing is mere brain-created illusion. Next you want me to take that mental construct with me, to the Astral, and put it to some kind of test.

I admit that it all sounds very logical to the extent a person could well conclude that no reasonable person could possibly argue against such a thing. After all, scientists undergo this kind of experimentation on the Physical all the time.

However, I can immediately see a big underlying problem here. My concern, and my question to you Jon is: What's going to happen to that Doubt when it's released within the Astral?

Yours,
Frank

[Heimdall]

The etheric, from what I gather, is basically physical reality but completely changeable depending on your thoughts.

I have had dreams where I was in real locations, which then warped into other locations depending on what I am thinking and what I would like to see.  Was I really at that location at that specific time?  I don't know.  I have been lucid in my dreams many times before.  Lucid dreaming has been something I have been able to do from time to time.  But to me a lot of lucid dreaming is just that, dreaming.  When you are able to control your dreams, it firsts manifests itself by yourself (mind) noticing that you are consciously changing the dream you are experiencing.  In my case, it's always something like "Hey cool, I can change this and do that and how about if I add a little of that etc".  I've "met" people before in my dreams, but that doesn't mean that these are actual people.  They could very well be "extras", or dream symbology (something my mind creates to symbolize a non-tangible idea).  I don't consider what I have personally experienced an OBE.  I attribute it to lively imagination.

I would be interesting to hear of any SCIENTIFICALLY done experiment, in labs, where OBE was researched and analyzed.  Has the card trick mentioned before been done in a lab setting?  

Adrian, I always enter these kinds of things with an open but slightly skeptical mind.  I think that if you are too open minded you can make you mind believe whatever it wants.  The "healthy" skepticism keeps me on my toes, keeps my thoughts in check, and prevents my mind from wandering.  And since OBE seems extremely dependent on the person's physical and emotional state anything done to altar either will skew the results.

In no way am I condemning this whole thing, or the experiences of other people.  In fact, I do enjoy reading about them when I get the chance.  I have used my healthy skepticism to explore other areas such as kundalini meditation and chakra work - with good results.  Being a little skeptical only makes the results more credible.....

Sorry for being so long winded......

[Paukki]

Robert Bruce's book, AD, has been mentioned, but I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Robert Monroe.  (I could've missed it.  Maybe I slipped out of body during that message, haha.)    He did not consciously invite his original obe experiences, and he clearly had the motivation, the time, and the money to make certain that he wasn't simply going nuts.  He not only did that, he confirmed stuff that he experienced in the RTZ, or at least found enough proof to convince himself that something "real" was going on here.  Maybe one of you could elaborate on that a bit--I mean, would you say Monroe had a truly scientific approach?
--Paukki

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Heimdall:
I have had dreams where I was in real locations, which then warped into other locations depending on what I am thinking and what I would like to see.  Was I really at that location at that specific time?  I don't know.  I have been lucid in my dreams many times before.  Lucid dreaming has been something I have been able to do from time to time.  But to me a lot of lucid dreaming is just that, dreaming.  When you are able to control your dreams, it firsts manifests itself by yourself (mind) noticing that you are consciously changing the dream you are experiencing.  In my case, it's always something like "Hey cool, I can change this and do that and how about if I add a little of that etc".  I've "met" people before in my dreams, but that doesn't mean that these are actual people.  They could very well be "extras", or dream symbology (something my mind creates to symbolize a non-tangible idea).  I don't consider what I have personally experienced an OBE.  I attribute it to lively imagination.

This is the Focus 22 state (in Monroe terms) or lucid dreaming as it is commonly called. Mental Focus 22 is the first level Astral where thought=direct action. This is where a lot of people who try astral projection get stuck, or they dismiss the whole obe thing as just a product of their imagination. What these people fail to realise, however, is there are more Focus levels beyond Focus 22 that have very different characteristics.

Yours,
Frank

[Heimdall]

I'll make this short (for a change) -

Are there any particular books by Monroe that you'd recommend?  I'd be interested to read what he has to say about this.

In the meantime, I keep trying - I always feel like I might be on the verge but usually the vibrations and noise in my ears gets extremely loud which startles me or I think I hear something in the room.......

Later.....

[Donna]

quote:Originally posted by Heimdall:
I'll make this short (for a change) -

Are there any particular books by Monroe that you'd recommend?  I'd be interested to read what he has to say about this.

In the meantime, I keep trying - I always feel like I might be on the verge but usually the vibrations and noise in my ears gets extremely loud which startles me or I think I hear something in the room.......

Later.....

Hi Heimdall,
There are many more sources of scientific value I can offer you (many gov. sources). But you may be interested in Ingo Swann one of the first put through testing by our government.
http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com
Donna

[Paukki]

Hello Heimdall,
Personally, I enjoyed all three of Robert Monroe's books, but I'm not a scientist, and if a science purist were looking for hard data, I'm not sure that would be the place to start.  I found all three of his books at Amazon.com, and of course there is also The Monroe Institute at http://www.monroeinstitute.org/

--Paukki

They say that the materialist school regards consciousness as an epiphenomenon of nature, or matter,
Whereas a relatively newer trend within science  sees consciousness as primary, or "first cause".
That the universe is more of a big thought than a big machine.
Religious people laugh and say they knew it all along.

[Heimdall]

I'm asking seriously, because I've tried for quite some time with no results.

I have NOT had an OBE, to my knowledge.

To me, all it seems like is another form of meditation, where you can reach parts of your subconscious that are normally only available during dreams.  How can you all be sure that this is all true, that this is real?

Have any of you met each other and shared time in this alternate reality, or had any other direct evidence that all of this just wasn't imagined?  To me, delving into subconscious realms like this can lead to a lot of false paths, as well as true ones.  How do you know that what you are experiencing is truly real and not your imagination?

I've had inklings of what might be OBE, but to me it's something you have to be careful about because you can easily be fooled into thinking that it's real when it isn't.  You brain can fool itself, or make itself see/think what it wants to.

I guess I'm a little frusterated.  Haven't had a conscious OBE that has seemed just like reality like the others say, but I'd like your opinions.  Again, do not consider this a flame it's merely a question I'm posing.....