Monroe Technique Questions

[dino333]

the experience is different because everybody has a different physical and mental make-up. Some things work better for some people than others. Maybe you should try something else.

[Frank]

Wow, that takes me back a while! I first came across this whole topic from by chance coming across Monroe's JOB over 20 years ago. I remember trying the exercise you mention and, to my surprise, I began getting projection symptoms.

The difficulties you are having I'd say are typical of what can so easily happen when someone attempts to describe a non-physical process or event, using words. What Monroe is basically trying to get you to do, is to shift your focal point of awareness from behind your physical eyes, upwards into the expanse of your mind.

If I may say, the first thing that strikes me about your post is you are taking the whole thing way too literally. In that event, what happens is you fall into the trap of engaging in an act of creative visualisation. This tends thwart your projection attempts.

quote:
Step 2: Imagine two lines starting from the far corner of your eyes (the outer corner such as the left corner of your left eye) merging into a center point 1 foot away from your forehead.

Okay, so if it were not already this exercise firmly places your focal point of awareness behind your physical eyes.

quote:
[Questions: How big should the lines and the point be? I seem to be having some trouble visualizing a perfect point.. could you think of it as a pulsating ball of energy instead of a perfect to-scale point perhaps?

This is where there is a tendency to start engaging in creative visualisation. The object of this exercise is not to visualise a "perfect to-scale point". Though I can understand why your thoughts are flowing along these lines. Again, there is ever so much room for misunderstanding when attempting to describe these kinds of mental exercises using words. But, for now at least, all of us have no alternative.

The object of this little exercise is, as I say, to get your focal point of awareness to the backs of your physical eyes. The object of the next two exercises is to shift that focal point of awareness upwards into the expanse of your mind. (Note: This puts you into what Monroe later termed the Focus-10 state.)

quote:
Step 3: Imagine the point shrinking as it is getting further away from your forehead, and then stop once it has traveled 6 feet from your forehead. It should now look like a 30 degree triangle (the left and right lines converging to the tip, or the point) with the bottom angle cut off.

This exercise introduces the notion of shifting your focal point of awareness, or focal point of consciousness from one place to another but along the same plane.

quote:
[Questions: It doesn't really look like any 30-degree triangle I could relate to.. if I am interpreting this as a spatial exercise.. because it can be in any point in the darkness that is 6 feet away (6 feet away on the top, bottom, upper-right corner? Where do you think you would try to imagine this point or ball of energy)]

It doesn't matter. The objective is the shifting of your focal point of consciousness along the same plane.

quote:
Step 4: Draw an imaginary line parallel to your body axis (a line going down the middle of your head I think, like you were cleanly bisecting your head (or third eye) in half) and then bring that point up and over your head until it is directly above the crown chakra (approximately 90 degrees). Be sure to move it up along that parallel axis line. I think of this as taking a pool triangle (the thing you use to align the balls in a pool game) and then lifting it up and over your head.. like you are wearing it. I think you should keep in mind that the point you are moving is like a jar containing vibrations, which you will reach out and grab.

Here, Monroe tries to explain the trickiest part, i.e. shifting that focal point of consciousness upwards into the expanse of your mind.

The reason why it is ever so tricky to explain, and why there is such room for misunderstanding, is because following the explanation people tend to visualise shifting their focus to a point in 3D physical space situated above the top of their head.

What Monroe is trying to get people to do is to shift their focus of awareness from a point situated in 3D physical space immediately in front of them... to a point "above them" which is situated within 4D non-physical space within the expanse of their mind.

quote:
[Questions: This is often the most vague part of this technique.. and the most problematic area is how to move it up that high. When I try to visualize the point moving up my eyeballs start to hurt (I can't roll my eyes up that far.. and I'm wondering if you even should?). Even if I could do that, you could not see the point if it was directly above your head.. it would be out of your line of sight, thus how could you reach for it if you could not even see it (aching eyeballs ]

Getting your physical eyes out of the projection equation can be tricky also. This is because during the time when you are awake and alert within the physical, your focal point of consciousness is situated at the backs of your physical eyes. As it shifts, your eyes tend to want to follow it.

I had a *lot* of difficulty with this. For example, just as I would begin to make some progress and start to perceive the abstract imagery at the Monroe Focus-12 state, my physical eyes would immediately come to life and try and snatch a glance at whatever it was. This, of course, zapped me right out of the state I'd tried for maybe an hour to get into: which was ever so frustrating! But it does come good with practice.

Again, the point you need to perceive is not situated above your physical head. The point you need to perceive is up within the expanse of your mind.

quote:
Step 5: Reach up for that point and mentally pull the vibrations it contains back into your body. If it works, I think your forehead should be the first thing to vibrate. (Although is it vibrations or just intense CHI sensations). Just how would you pull them back.. just kind of mentally imagine the point "shooting" vibrations into you?

I wouldn't bother too much with this step because, once the vibrations begin, it all tends to flow from then on.

HTH

Yours,
Frank

[Graupel]

Ah, ok

So basically when you are bringing the point upwards (from a point of focus perspective, not intense visualization), you are shifting your focus and thoughts up and into the vast expanse up within your brain (by thinking of the point moving up in that region, your awareness and thoughts are placed up in that region.. not your physical eyes.. but your awareness and mental focus?)  

Simply put, is it just kind of like seeing straight in front of you (behind your physical eyes) and then focusing on what lies "above" inside your brain, and then holding your focus in that region?

Does your body need to be asleep / mind awake (condition D hypnagogic) for this to work.. or can you do it from practically any relaxed mental state?

And if you keep your focus in the brain region, the vibrations should start automatically?

[jason]

I had amazing success w/this technique about 12 years ago.It worked for me 12 years ago.I forget exactly what I did, though Franks suggestions sound very good.especially the suggestion about not taking things too literally.I showed monroes technique to my brother after I had great success w/it.he tried to "reach out" for the vibrations using his physical hands[|)]

I wouldn't personally focus on the actual brain region,because it keeps you focused on the physical and it's environment too much.whereas the whole idea of the technique is to focus away from it.but if it works for you,hey,don't mess w/it.you can't argue w/ success...

seeing this technique now,after having some experience behind me,it seems that this technique teaches us to "tune into" the astral,using the mind as a gate, after "tuning out" (deeply relaxing) the physical environment.

Although now,after more than a decade[:O], I'll have to practice this again,cause I forgot how to do it!!!

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Graupel

So basically when you are bringing the point upwards (from a point of focus perspective, not intense visualization), you are shifting your focus and thoughts up and into the vast expanse up within your brain

Basically, yes. Though you say "brain" technically it's your mind. Your brain is the physical organ which has the job of running the physical body.

quote:
Simply put, is it just kind of like seeing straight in front of you (behind your physical eyes) and then focusing on what lies "above" inside your brain, and then holding your focus in that region?

Yes.

Like I say the problem people often have is they mistakenly visualise a point in 3D physical space somewhere in the region of the top of their physical head. When your mental focus should go upwards into the vast expanse of your mind.

Looking back, I must have got the basic jist of this more or less from the outset. Although I approached the subject with an open mind and gave his technique a fair go, I can still remember the thought of "stepping out" of my physical body was an impossible notion for me to entertain.

After some weeks of dwelling on the issue I figured Monroe was either insane, or he had stumbled onto something. Like, he'd discovered something truly amazing about some inner workings of the mind. After all, the workings of the mind were not then (and nor are they now) entirely known.

So I figured that if his claims were true (and to me then, it was a BIG if) whatever triggers the phenemenon must be within the mind somewhere. So that's where I began focussing. As it turned out, my thinking was absolutely spot-on which was something of a lucky break for me.

Basically, then, you switch your focus to whatever is happening within your mind. That is all Monroe is trying to describe in JOB. The technique given in that book also forms the basis of his later techniques. As your body relaxes and you focus away from the Physical more and more, you should begin to perceive subtle events taking place within your mind. These events tend to go through various stages which have certain charateristics. Monroe, in his later work, labelled these stages with an arbritary series of numbers he called Focus Levels.

quote:
Does your body need to be asleep / mind awake (condition D hypnagogic) for this to work.. or can you do it from practically any relaxed mental state?

The act of shifting your mental focus automatically puts you in the mind-awake, body-asleep state. Reason being, where you place your point of focus becomes your reality.

So if you focus away from the 3D physical, then that realm is no-longer a reality for you. Which means you no-longer have any sensation of your physical body; as your reality becomes 4D Astral. But you still have senses. Like, you can still see, hear, touch, taste and smell things, for example. Though it is common for people to have to work at it, before all their senses are up and running.

quote:
And if you keep your focus in the brain region, the vibrations should start automatically?

Yes, that has been my experience and doubt I'm some kind of exception as others have reported similar experiences.

Anyone wanting to go down the Monroe road, IMO, first needs to work at getting themselves to the Focus 12 state. Reason I say this is because from Focus 12, events tend to unfold themselves if you can allow yourself to flow along with it.

The point at which your focus turns inwards, you lose sensation of the Physical realm. This is Focus 10. Then you need a tricky little mental push to get you to Focus 12, following which the ball should continue rolling by itself.

Yours,
Frank

[Graupel]

What Monroe book would you recommend that is up-to-date and gives complete and simple exercises for attaining step-by-step the focus 10 and 12 states (and a more up-to-date version of his technique for inducing vibrations)?

[Frank]

Unfortunately, there isn't one.

The only book which details any kind of specific technique is his first. His two later works detail his adventures mostly. I have studied these books and have gleaned all I can. Monroe's work runs parallel to my own in a number of respects; which is how I managed to work out where he was coming from on several key issues.

Despite years of practice, however, I still cannot project with anything like the fluency he was able to. But, like most things, practice is the key to success.

Yours,
Frank

[Noxerus]

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[Graupel]

Ah cool.. I briefly tried it and I think it's getting somewhere

To enter the focus 10 and then 12 state, is focusing all your concentration up and into the region of your mind (the blackness that is "up" and unknown) and then holding your concentration (minds eye and thoughts) while going off to sleep the key that lets your mind and focus stay awake and then once you continue to focus upwards in that region you will eventually loose awareness of your physical body but not fall asleep and loose consciousness?  Even just simply going to bed as normal (without much relaxation exercise), but holding your focus in this region continuously will be enough to enter the focus 10 and keep yourself awake?

And the "ladder" exercise for entering a trance.. is that just used to occupy your mind with the focus of climbing down a ladder in 3D space so that you won't fall asleep and loose conciousness too, and then eventually once you have mentally felt yourself climbing down enough of the ladder pegs, you should loose awareness of your physical body and enter the trance?

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Graupel

To enter the focus 10 and then 12 state, is focusing all your concentration up and into the region of your mind (the blackness that is "up" and unknown) and then holding your concentration (minds eye and thoughts) while going off to sleep the key that lets your mind and focus stay awake and then once you continue to focus upwards in that region you will eventually loose awareness of your physical body but not fall asleep and loose consciousness?

Correct.

Normally, when we fall asleep we lose consciousness. But we can also enter a state where we fall asleep and retain consciousness. It's a bit of a tricky mental balancing act to achieve, and some people are better at it than others. Monroe called this state, "mind awake, body asleep" which he labelled Focus 10.

I like that description, "the blackness that is up and unknown". That's the place alright.

quote:
Even just simply going to bed as normal (without much relaxation exercise), but holding your focus in this region continuously will be enough to enter the focus 10 and keep yourself awake?

Yes.

That's why I'm not into doing any kind of physical-body relaxation exercises or energy-work and stuff like that. All I'm interested in is Astral projection. So I just let my body drift off to sleep as per normal while retaining full consciousness. Which is all it basically takes.

Okay, that is a darned sight easier to say than it is to do, for most people. But it is by no means impossible. It's very similar to learning how to play an instrument such as a guitar or a piano. It's darned tricky and somewhat frustrating at first. But if you stick with it things gradually begin to come together.

quote:
And the "ladder" exercise for entering a trance.. is that just used to occupy your mind with the focus of climbing down a ladder in 3D space so that you won't fall asleep and loose conciousness too, and then eventually once you have mentally felt yourself climbing down enough of the ladder pegs, you should loose awareness of your physical body and enter the trance?

People find that it helps if they give their mind a simple task to keep it occupied while the physical body is dropping off to sleep. You want something that is not so simple a task that you get bored, lose concentration, wake up a while later and realise you lost focus. But you don't want a task so complex that you engage in an act of creative visualisation, which tends to keep both mind and physical body awake.

With me, I like to create these little mental rundowns where I drift from one mental scene to the next. Some climb an imaginary rope. Others imagine a ladder, etc., etc. Simply use whatever mental imagery you feel most comfortable with. But not something too simple or too complex.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by, "enter a trance". I hear people use this term but never could grasp what they meant. If you perform the technique successfully you end up situated within the expanse of your mind. You basically feel the same person only your environment has changed.

This feels rather weird at first because, normally, when you are wide awake and alert, you are within the Physical environment. Unfortunately, there is the tendency to freak-out the first however-many times due to the, "fish out of water effect". But overcoming it is just a question of gaining familiarity with the basic ground rules and lots of practice.

Yours,
Frank

[Graupel]

Frank,

I was experimenting last night, and what usually happens is if I try somewhat to focus on keeping my mind awake I just end up laying in bed for hours on end (despite being relaxed, I just can't seem to fall asleep.. thus no hypnagogic imagery I am aware of), and then if I relax my mind and just let it rest, I eventually just loose conciousness and fall asleep alltogether (I have never noticed hypnagogic imagery.. is that usually after you loose concious awareness?)

What are some mental focus techniques that you could recommend I try to reach the hypnagogic state and stay in the state of "mind awake / body asleep"?

I tried holding up the arm, but it usually just ends up hurting or goes stiff.  Concentrating on the black void and expecting something to happen usually just keeps me awake until I will myself to sleep.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Graupel

I was experimenting last night, and what usually happens is if I try somewhat to focus on keeping my mind awake I just end up laying in bed for hours on end (despite being relaxed, I just can't seem to fall asleep.. thus no hypnagogic imagery I am aware of), and then if I relax my mind and just let it rest, I eventually just loose conciousness and fall asleep alltogether

What you describe is the core problem which most people come across. And the reason why I say it's a bit of a tricky mental balancing act. Somehow you have to "let go" to the extent where your body will just drift off to sleep as per usual; but not "let go" to the extent where you lose your conscious awareness. That's why I call it a balancing act.

There's a kind of centre road you need to find. Unfortunately, it's ever so easy to fall one way or the other. Somehow you have to develop a way of passively observing yourself falling asleep. That's the core challenge most people have to overcome when attemting the Monroe-style Phasing approach.  

quote:
I have never noticed hypnagogic imagery.. is that usually after you loose concious awareness?

The Phasing approach holds the promise that conscious awareness is retained at all times. When you say lose conscious awareness, do you rather mean lose awareness of your physical body? If so then, yes. The imagery comes about in the beginning stages, and is a definite indicator of your progress.

quote:
What are some mental focus techniques that you could recommend I try to reach the hypnagogic state and stay in the state of "mind awake / body asleep"?

This is a question I would pose to yourself and see if anything comes forth by way of inspiration. That's basically what I do when I get stuck. Try writing that question down and carrying the paper with you and read it to yourself every hour or so. I'm sure you'll get something come flooding through.

quote:
I tried holding up the arm, but it usually just ends up hurting or goes stiff.  Concentrating on the black void and expecting something to happen usually just keeps me awake until I will myself to sleep.

Rather than concentrate on the blackness, try mentally standing back and passively observing it. Imagine you had a zoom lens where you could focus in on something (which is what you are doing now) then try zooming out so you are viewing the blackness in a more panoramic sense. Then just passively observe it from that POV.

I'm a bit short on time right now but later today I'll try and post a typical observation example.

Yours,
Frank

[Graupel]

An interesting thing..

I'm reading LaBerge's book "Exploring the world of lucid dreams" and found some neat exercise on WILD(Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming).. which I guess can translate to Monroe's Focus 10 & 12 states.  What do you think of the following technique (he calls it the "Count yourself to sleep" technique)?

1.)  Relax, and go to bed (it works best if you have slept for about 4-5 hours, wake up and then immediately go to bed).

2.)  Start counting in your mind from 1 to 100 inserting the words "I'm dreaming!" in between.  An example would be "1 I'm dreaming 2 I'm dreaming 3 I'm dreaming 4 I'm dreaming" in a slow and concise manner.

[For those who have practiced this technique, here is a quick question:   Should you focus more on hearing the counting and mantra-like sentence, or visualize the numbers and counting?  For me it seems easier just to mentally say it but I'm not sure if I use too much mental resources]

Eventually you should find yourself in a lucid dream (by the time you reach 100 or something.. you might realize you are dreaming) or observing the hypnagogic state (passively watching the images but focusing on the conting) and then you can project directly from that.

When you astrally project and look at a piece of text in the physical (such as your alarm clock in your room), look away and then look back.. should it be concise with that of the physical world (and not change or distort as it would in a lucid dream)?

[Frank]

quote:
When you astrally project and look at a piece of text in the physical (such as your alarm clock in your room), look away and then look back.. should it be concise with that of the physical world (and not change or distort as it would in a lucid dream)?

I haven't read the book you mention so I'm not able to comment. As to the above quote: the lucid-dream environment is a fairly stable place, in that the components which make up any one particular scene do not distort, per se. The reason why reality fluctuations occur is because you are projecting your focus of awareness within an environment where thoughts become things, i.e. thoughts fuel events.

So you might come across a piece of text, say. Naturally you become curious as to what it might say. But as you release those feelings of curiosity the feelings will "come to life" in some way. Maybe something subtle will happen to the text which makes you all the more curious about it; so it becomes ever more curious to you; so you get all the more curious about it; and so forth. Then you might think all these subtle fluctuations are becoming mighty confusing.

As you release these feelings of confusion the scene will automatically become confusing; which makes you that much more confused; and so the situation gets ever more confusing, and so on, and so on. What normally happens is, the situation degrades to a point where your protective sense of awareness slaps the brakes on and zaps you back to C1.

To avoid these kinds of fluctuations it is essential for a person to keep a high degree of control over their thoughts and to remain entirely neutral, emotionally. Otherwise you end up flitting about all over the place.

Yours,
Frank

[Graupel]

Hey I just purchased the book "Journeys Out of the Body" by Robert A. Monroe.

I read the technique that they had in the book, and I was wondering if someone can help answer some questions concerning the technique.  I will write the questions in brackets after each step the way I understand it.

Step 1:  Relax (i just try to relax my whole body and feel heavy and then enter the hypnagogic state without doing any fancy relaxation or trance exercises)

Step 2:  Imagine two lines starting from the far corner of your eyes (the outer corner such as the left corner of your left eye) merging into a center point 1 foot away from your forehead.

[Questions:  How big should the lines and the point be?  I seem to be having some trouble visualizing a perfect point.. could you think of it as a pulsating ball of energy instead of a perfect to-scale point perhaps?]

Step 3:  Imagine the point shrinking as it is getting further away from your forehead, and then stop once it has traveled 6 feet from your forehead.  It should now look like a 30 degree triangle (the left and right lines converging to the tip, or the point) with the bottom angle cut off.

[Questions:  It doesn't really look like any 30-degree triangle I could relate to.. if I am interpreting this as a spatial exercise.. because it can be in any point in the darkness that is 6 feet away (6 feet away on the top, bottom, upper-right corner?  Where do you think you would try to imagine this point or ball of energy)]

Step 4:  Draw an imaginary line parallel to your body axis (a line going down the middle of your head I think, like you were cleanly bisecting your head (or third eye) in half) and then bring that point up and over your head until it is directly above the crown chakra (approximately 90 degrees).  Be sure to move it up along that parallel axis line.  I think of this as taking a pool triangle (the thing you use to align the balls in a pool game) and then lifting it up and over your head.. like you are wearing it.  I think you should keep in mind that the point you are moving is like a jar containing vibrations, which you will reach out and grab.

[Questions:  This is often the most vague part of this technique.. and the most problematic area is how to move it up that high.  When I try to visualize the point moving up my eyeballs start to hurt (I can't roll my eyes up that far.. and I'm wondering if you even should?).  Even if I could do that, you could not see the point if it was directly above your head.. it would be out of your line of sight, thus how could you reach for it if you could not even see it (aching eyeballs ]

Step 5:  Reach up for that point and mentally pull the vibrations it contains back into your body.  If it works, I think your forehead should be the first thing to vibrate. (Although is it vibrations or just intense CHI sensations).  Just how would you pull them back.. just kind of mentally imagine the point "shooting" vibrations into you?

What do you all think?  Does this seem like a pretty good explanation of the major phase of the Monroe technique?  For now I am concerned with initiating the vibrations, and then I will move on to practicing Monroe's separation exercises.

In summary, I think the two most biggest problems are the visualization of how the lines and point should be, and then bringing that up and over my head.  I don't think fancy relaxation or condition D stuff is required, if you can learn to control the hypnagogic state without falling asleep.

On a side note, when I try to visualize this point moving up and over my head (although I don't think I am doing it right) I get some very strong CHI (like cold chills) shooting down into my body.  Don't know if that is significant, since chi is not really the vibrations that Monroe says this technique should initiate.