Never been able to prove its more than a mind game

[catmeow]

Hi catstorm3

I like this idea, that something has to be observed physically to "lock it in" (collapse the wave function etc). Until an object has been observed physically it exists in all possible states.  Maybe observing something physical from the astral does not fulfill the criteria of physical observation, so that's why things constantly shift in the astral.

But... this means that we can never visit remote places like desert islands, or the oceans or the dark side of the moon, because these places have not been "observed" yet?  Wouldn't that be a shame...?!

[thedubdude]

Has anyone considered that this is a perfectly natural consequence of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (and the observer effect) at work? (See quantum mechanics for the theory)

So the card's state is actually undetermined, until someone on the physical plane observes it. Maybe observation on the astral is unable to fulfill the contract of the observer effect.

So: try the experiment thus: Have someone ELSE observe the card, on the physical plane. Don't let them tell you. This should "lock in" the choice of card on the physical plane. Then observe on the astral and let us know the results.

Excellent suggestion....I'll have my wife look at the card and not tell me....thanks.....

[Steel Hawk]

It's because physical reality is as real as a dream is.

In actuality the physical plane is the same thing as a ghost is.

[catstorm3]

Also, "don't blame the science - blame the practictioner" (sorry if I'm rude), but perhaps there is something else that is needed, some skill, something, in order to do verifications. I know you have been practicing for a LONG time, but it is just a suggestion - don't take it the wrong way.

Bruce Moen provides independent, cross the world validations on his site, where more than one person independently verifies details of retrievals (without correlating their notes)

[forynav]

I live away from my parents. I haven't had an AP yet. What I intend to do to verify is to project to my home and verify the colors of the bed-sheets in our bedrooms and then call and confirm. Let's see what happens. 

[T.L.]

I see a lot of people suggesting validations are impossible/improbable under most circumstances. I completely disagree with that notion, as I've verified and verified things until it completely bored me and I was satisfied it was in fact a reality. However someone posting validations about their experiences is not going to solidify the fact that projection/obe is a reality, because after all if the validation seems  too fantastic the person could be accused simply of lying.

  The only way for validations to have any meaning is for you to be the one to validate your experience. Only then can someone completely understand and comprehend it is in fact real. Im not saying don't post your obe's obviously there is value in this, as it provides motivation to the would be projectors here. However you can expect if you post validations that this can not be taken at face value. So what Im saying in short is validations only have meaning to the validators =-)

[SkepticBoy]

Ok T.L you seem pretty confident in your ability to verify real items. Is it possible for you to verify something I lay out on top of my desk? we could arrange proper rules if your willing.

Would you be able to do this? could you simply will yourself to my house where ever you are, whether that be Australia or down the end of my road? (which is unlikey) pls give me a simple yes or no.

I'd be very interested if you could do this and please dont give me a reply such as "we dont have to prove it to you blah blah blah" just do it already!!!!! (lol) ty.

[Panthau]

hehe its not provable when it should be...its weird. someones watching us

[SkepticBoy]

What? no I was asking T.L.

[Panthau]

That was just a general posting, not related to your post to T.L.

[SoulsNirvana]

Ok I have an idea.
Go to Google Images and type in something you never did before.
Then go to some random page like 8 but don't look at your screen.
Move your mouse cursor on that number, close your eyes and click.
Go to bed and project.
Look at your screen and what images are there.
Then come back to reality and check if it's the same.

I never projected ... but I'll try to prove it's real after I learn.

Another way is to go to some of those sites where it has links to pictures without thumbnails.
Click on one and look at it in the Astral.
There is something like that in Astral Voyage : http://www.astralvoyage.com/remote/try.html

It would also be interesting to open a new sticky thread.
Everyone should put links to pictures and people who are able to project should use them as validation.

[SkepticBoy]

You up for that challenge T.L. the next time you project or? I ask you because you seem confident with validations.

It shouldnt take long in your next OBE just to shoot over here quickly and hang around to see something to validate then whizz back again.

[SkepticBoy]

So are you T.L.?

[T.L.]

It doesn't seem like you read many of my posts man. Everything I validated was mostly in the confines of my home, and close by. As I've explained in my of my other posts I'm still trying to figure out how to reliably go from one place to another (teleport or whatever you would like to call it). Not to mention going to a place I have no emotional connection with is certainly a problem in and of itself, which is why I have had so many problems trying to get to the white house.. Although I have had a small success with this, but the process seems to break the trance/experience. I'm not saying no. I'd be willing to try as long as you have the patience because there is no promise that I will succeed in getting out one day or the next. I can go periods of two weeks with out any experience, so it would probably be a longterm thing. Then when I do get out I'd still have to figure out how to go from here to there, it's something I haven't found a reliable solution to. If you have patience I'd certainly be willing to try.

[SkepticBoy]

It doesn't seem like you read many of my posts man. Everything I validated was mostly in the confines of my home, and close by. As I've explained in my of my other posts I'm still trying to figure out how to reliably go from one place to another (teleport or whatever you would like to call it). Not to mention going to a place I have no emotional connection with is certainly a problem in and of itself, which is why I have had so many problems trying to get to the white house.. Although I have had a small success with this, but the process seems to break the trance/experience. I'm not saying no. I'd be willing to try as long as you have the patience because there is no promise that I will succeed in getting out one day or the next. I can go periods of two weeks with out any experience, so it would probably be a longterm thing. Then when I do get out I'd still have to figure out how to go from here to there, it's something I haven't found a reliable solution to. If you have patience I'd certainly be willing to try.

Hmmm ok T.L. but I actually thought if someone had a place in mind in the Etheral, they could just go there in a second even if they dont know the location or have nothing to do with the place. I have just heard that alot but I guess it may not be true. Would it help at all if I gave the city and town? and yes i'd be patient.

[kalengi]

I think this ties in strongly with the concept of consensus reality.

We can't see things if we don't allow them to be, in our reality. However, there is a "window of opportunity" mentioned by Bruce Moen, wherein we are taken by surprise, and for that brief moment, something which conflicts with our reality is "allowed" to happen. Then we do damage control and find something rational to explain it.

I had writing appear on my computer screen when fully conscious and without me having typed it. Believe me, I found many rational explanations for it which are just as compelling as the supernatural one. Yet it happened.

I think we need to find ways to change our consensus reality so that more interesting things become possible. They are possible, we just always find a "rational" explanation for them.

catstorm3, could you give some more details on the writing on computer thing? Sounds interesting

[T.L.]

"Hmmm ok T.L. but I actually thought if someone had a place in mind in the Etheral, they could just go there in a second even if they dont know the location or have nothing to do with the place."

That's what I thought too, but it's just not that easy to me. Perhaps some people don't have a problem with that kind of thing, but it's been one of the hardest things for me to figure out. Sure we'll work something out and I'll give it a try. In a week my wife has 8 days off coming up so I'd have a lot more time to make some attempts.

[SkepticBoy]

Hello? TL? still up for this challenge? seems you said Yes last time so please give me a time when you may be able to go astral. TY.

[T.L.]

"seems you said Yes last time so please give me a time when you may be able to go astral"

That's the problem I never know when I'll be able to get out. Last time I was out was around the 20th. I have the next two days off (well one now because it's now the 26th). I can give it a try, but I'm sure the lack of information isn't going to help. I don't know your name, where you live or anything relevant to who you are. Even if I wanted to visit you physically I wouldn't be able to, so I don't see how I'd be able to nonphysically without more information. I don't know how personal emotions toward certain people play a role in the success of being able to transport oneself to a certain location, and if they are all that important. As I said before I'm still working on the traveling part. I had minor successes with it by making it to some non-physical beach when I thought about API, and seen an interesting location when I thought about going to the whitehouse (a desk of a woman sitting with a headset on, and a few other people walking by). Each time it seemed like I was half in and half out of the location when I did it.

  I'll give it my best shot but at least give me your city/location, and maybe your first name. Another part of this is traveling in an objective manner, rather than subjectively thinking you have traveled to the location. A good example is when some people go through a wall of their house to get outside. Before they do everything inside looks perfect, and outside (through the window) everything looks as it should. Then they go through a wall to get outside and all of a sudden they are somewhere else, definitely not in their neighborhood. It seems to me that they took an objective experience, and through a loss of concentration or perception from going through the wall they ended up in a self made (subjective) reality. Anyway my point is patience will be needed just pm me the information or post it here for me.

[SkepticBoy]

K dude i've sent some details and I forgot to mention i'm in UK too by the way. Good luck.

[T.L.]

Gave it a try earlier, didn't get out. Will try again tonight when my wife and daughter go to sleep. Also so the idea is you want me to describe an object next to your pc? Like I said before be patient because I never know when I will get out, and if I do where/when I'll end up.

[UmmaGumma]

I've been having OBE's and lucid dreams for about 30 years now. I have them frequently about once a week on average. Since the time of my first OBE I've studied and read many books on the subject and many many books on spirtuality. My view of the world has changed dramatically since my first OBE and I do believe in reincarnation and life after death. That being said, I have yet to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the OBE experience is more than a trick of the mind. Here are some of the experiments I've tried (and failed) to prove the "realness" of the experience:

1. placed a random card face up and viewed it while out of body: I could see the card but it constantly changed while I viewed it. In the end I never correctly identified the card. Experiment performed 4 times.

2. Placed a closed box ,with an unknown item inside, inside my room. I try to reach inside the box and identify the item. Never could. Experiment performed about 5 times.

3. Tried speaking to my wife while out of body. She never rememberd having had the conversation. Experiment performed maybe 3 times.

4. Tried identifying a written word left out by my wife...never could. Experiment performed 3 times.


Here are some things that make me think it might be "real":

1. I've felt my astral cord.
2. I've opened my real eyes while my arms were out of my body and I saw my astral hands.


If anyone can suggest an experiment they have done that has succeed in convincing them beyond a shadow of a doubt that this experience is more than an illusion/delusion of the mind I would like to hear about it. Thank you in advance.

Sorry you are quick to disbelieve.  I've had several validations.  But the most validating was the one in which my ex showed up in my OBE.  He has these experiences also, only his are more progressed.  He told me he was going to come and join me sometime.  And he did!  A few days after he appeared in my OBE, my ex came over to my house and asked me if I had seen him.  I told him, "I knew that shadowy figure on the stairs was you!"  I had recognized his silhouette----especially that of his hair!  My ex even told me that at one time when I flew past him that my and his heads had collided.  This had happened when I decided to fly through him instead of past him the second time around.  I flew through him from his neck up.  This is when he and I collided heads!

Another time, I traveled into my son's room and briefly watched as he sat at the computer and watched YouTube videos.  Later, I asked him if he had been watching wrestling videos on YouTube.  He said he had been watching UFC videos on YouTube.  In my book, the same thing!  He must have thought I meant WWE and was specific that it was in fact UFC.  I asked him if it had been wrestling cause I just knew it had been two guys squaring off in a ring.

Another time my ex came over, and as he and I stood outside talking, he nodded toward the direction underneath my upstairs bedroom window and asked me if, a few days earlier, I had traveled out my bedroom window just underneath the spot where he had motioned his head.  Again, I was excited but not shocked to learn that he had seen me.  I told him I had done that very thing because I wanted to scare the neighbor's dog that was always barking and annoying me.

Maybe someday you'll have an experience that will validate that these experiences are in fact real and not imagined.  I have not a doubt in my mind that my experiences are VERY real. 

[catmeow]

Hi UmmaGumma

It's always good to hear validations like these, would you be interested in adding your validations to the validation thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html

?

Thanks!

[iNNERvOYAGER]

I'm agreeing with Catstorm3 and Catmeow. Was going to suggest a similar idea, having to do with seeing the probabilities.

My validation opportunities are rare, but when they happen I seem to see other versions of what could have happened.

For example, I got up to verify something, checked my daughter's room, and was actually surprised to find two young sons in the bedroom, I'm guessing from another life probability.

[SkepticBoy]

Any progress T.L. ?