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Quote from: Windwalker. on September 10, 2018, 23:56:18I agree with all you wrote. My point was this: NDEers seem to actually experience the rtz whereas OBEers seem to access the dream state ie lucid dreams. So how can we know they are one in the same?
Quote from: Volgerle on September 11, 2018, 22:19:03OBErs also visit the RTZ, definitely. Many have seen their bodies in bed, me included. It was the physical and not an astral 'vision' or copy or whatever. There's also many validations brought back from the physical that exist (see my signature link).
Quote from: Windwalker. on September 13, 2018, 19:40:44And this is my point exactly. NDEers seem to actually still be observing what is going on in the REAL physical world, ie as if a ghost would. OBEs never observe what is going on in the real physical world, only a replica. That denotes a huge difference. So how can we be sure that NDEs and OBES are experiencing the same phenomenon? It can easily be said that an obe has simply accessed the dream construct. You cant say the same thing for an NDE because 1. They are observing the real physical world and 2. They are dead. UNLESS.....NDEers only THINK they are observing the "real" physical world but in truth they are only seeing the replica that we observe during obes. Im not convinced they are the same phenomenon.
Quote from: Windwalker. on September 10, 2018, 22:45:22When people experience NDEs it seems as if they experience the physical as if remote viewing themselves ie, "I heard what the Drs. said to each other and them pronouncing me dead" etc. which i believe is refered to as the real time zone. None of my OBEs have occured it the rtz- although many are very similar, i clearly realize the experience is within me vs. me floating out of my body in the physical. Even Monroe spoke about "pinching" a woman friend of his to prove he was OBEing in the rtz-but again, my experiences are clearly not the rtz. . Although most of Monroes experiences were clearly not in the rtz. So I am curious if NDEs actually occur in the rtz or if they simply appear to because of the similarities just as OBEs do? At times i have wondered if obes and ndes were one in the same given many people label ndes as actually happening in the rtz and label obes as "only lucid dreaming" and not the same as an nde in the rtz. Im curious if there is literature on people who have experienced an nde and also experienced obes for their opinions. I only ask this because i spoke with a person who said NDE'ers actually float out of their body ala a ghost and OBEers are simply having lucid dreams. I couldnt guide this person to any literature of people who have experienced both who state they are one in the same.