I have never had an astral projection or OBE experience, but always wanted to. I am what you might call a spiritual seeker looking for the "truth."
I was very distressed to read this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/health/psychology/03shad.html?ex=1317528000&en=d71c1fcd10396c37&ei=5090&partner=rss
I want to hear what others think about this. Just because OBEs can be induced this way by stimulating certain parts of the brain does this mean they are not really real? That they are just caused by the brain and an illusion?
Does this article mean OBEs are real or fake? I don't know what to think anymore. I hate to think that when you die you just cease to exist. That would make life meaningless. But apparently science is determined to prove this very fact.
The way I see it is they might have shown how it happens but still don't explain why.
The concept of viewing yourself or someone else from another point of consciousness then confirming it, still needs some explaining.
The article is very flawed.
Olaf Blanke's work with one or two epileptic subjects, whilst interesting, is of no more scientific value than you or me describing our own out of body experiences. It was performed on a neurologically abnormal patient, without any experimental protocol (making it anecdotal), has not been peer-reviewed, has not been replicated by others, and we only have his word that it actually happened....
Hey look if they are going to play the "honesty" card against people who describe real out of body experiences, they should expect the "honesty" card to be played back in return!
To complicate matters further, other scientists have reported inducing OBE like sensations by stimulating different parts of the brain (eg the sylvian fissure - Penfield), again this work has not been replicated. Hence scientifically, their work is interesting, but not definitive.
Do a search on Blanke on this board, and/or read my critique:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_obe_discussions/outofbody_experience_clues_may_hide_in_mind-t22481.0.html;msg191577#msg191577 (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_obe_discussions/outofbody_experience_clues_may_hide_in_mind-t22481.0.html;msg191577#msg191577)
Or read the critiques of others:
http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2007/03/06/near_death_experience_reaction (http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2007/03/06/near_death_experience_reaction)
I'm not disrespecting scientific work. It's a good thing, but we have to make correct judgements on what the research actually means. Generally, it does not mean that "it's all in the head". Unfortunately that is the way it is usually represented, or mis-represented to be more precise. Don't take my word for it, read Dr Pim Van Lommel's rebuttal of Michael Shermer mis-representation of his scientific findings:
http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm (http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm)
Quote from: aharris77 on March 22, 2008, 11:59:07
Just because OBEs can be induced this way by stimulating certain parts of the brain does this mean they are not really real? That they are just caused by the brain and an illusion?
Stimulating the brain can cause old memories to pop up, but that doesn't make the memories false. It's like tinkering with a video camera and judging reality by the resultant image displayed on a TV screen - that doesn't tell us much about what the camera actually sees.
Consciousness is far from being understood. We can't explore it without being prosecuted (drug use) or labeled as crackpots (astral projection). We haven't reached a point of consensus on what consciousness is, so testing it is out of the question.
multisensory processing areas, well its multi creating a new sense.. a more aware sense, you multiply all of these senses together and you should obviously be experiencing something stronger. you would think some quantative people like these should understand things like this. nonetheless. there is a body there is a brain there is a mind and there is a soul/spirit. they all act together. when you are using all senses at once (multisensory processing areas) in this case all together in the brain area it is closely related to the body and the mind, but it is not yet to the point of the spirit. even if it does effect your spirit it doesnt prove anything, it just means that they are cheating on an experience. everything in this universe is connected, its like an infinite number of wavelengths all hidden behind each other. but i cant tell you which one is the one that isnt hiding. anyways science, spirituality etc are all leading to the same place and once we can all accept that then we will all have the knowledge.
Thank you all...catmeow I am going to read those resources...
I am starting to think like many of you have said, just because they can do it in a lab doesn't mean it's not real. One of my biggest issues is trust, it is hard for me to trust anyone or anything. I have no faith in anything. I've always wanted to have an OBE and tried for years but experienced nothing. I am a hopeful skeptic...someone who wants certain things to be true but won't believe them until they see them firsthand...
At this point I feel like I could search and study for ages without finding the answers, but this board is a good start! Thanks everyone!
Quote from: aharris77 on March 22, 2008, 11:59:07
I want to hear what others think about this. Just because OBEs can be induced this way by stimulating certain parts of the brain does this mean they are not really real? That they are just caused by the brain and an illusion?
I saw on the discovery channel a woman having brain surgery, during which time, they lowered her body temperature to a point where she was medically considered dead. They had to do this in order to operate on her brain without her bleeding to death...
While she was clinically dead, she experienced an obe where she floated out of the top of her head and hovered at the ceiling in the operation room and watched the entire surgery.
When she came back to, she was able to tell the doctors what tools they used, what they said, and what they did. According to specialists, she should not have been concious, and she should not have had any brain activity at all during the operation.
The fact that she was brain dead, yet still able to think and feel and experience is proof that there is a soul and that life goes on after death.
lily moonsong...thanks for reminding me of this! I did read about this particular case online somewhere and even saw a drawing the woman had done of a tool they used. However, I did not know that this was featured on the Discovery Channel. Cool! For some reason that gives it more credibility to me.
You know, the skeptic in me says, "Ok, well maybe she somehow was conscious and heard what was going on..." but how could she "see" what tool they were using on her brain? The skeptic in me doesn't have an answer for that...
I wonder what the "opponents" of OBEs/NDEs aka atheist materialists etc. have to say about this one? I imagine they would come up with some argument but honestly, I can't think of any materialist (I think materialist is the word I am going for here) explanation for this incident.
Yes lily moonsong, you are absolutely correct.
The practice of reducing brain activity to absolute zero (zero EEG and zero blood supply) for several minutes whilst surgery is performed is a normal medical procedure. It is done routinely for certain brain surgeries. There are numereous cases of people undergoing this procedure and then accurately reporting what took place whilst their EEG was flat. Clearly this is impossible to explain using the conventional assumption that the "mind" is generated by neural activity in the brain. In fact the only real conclusion to be drawn is that the mind can operate independently of the brain. It's also pretty difficult to explain what sensory apparatus was used to "see" and "hear" during these experiences.
There are many such examples, and I still haven't heard a credible conventional explanation. Usually, critics claim that the patient "heard" something whilst he was coming out of anaesthesia and somehow his mind translated what he heard into the experience of having an OBE. But this doesn't add up. Patients report incidents, conversations, tools used, the appearance of people in the room and adjoining corridors and so on. These things happened whilst they were flatlined NOT whilst they were coming out of anaesthesia. There is no way they could know this information, using conventional explanations.
Alternatively of course, critics claim that these experiences didn't happen the way they were described. They must have been exaggerated or inaccurately reported. Pathetic. It goes without saying that the same criticism is not levelled against Blanke.
Check out these links
http://www.near-death.com/ (http://www.near-death.com/)
http://www.nderf.org/ (http://www.nderf.org/)
if obe is in the brain then the physical world is in your brain also.
Friends,
Right now, I am working on a publication of my mom's recent passing last week: during the month of February she had the near death experience, two death bed vision's (different locations, dates, and times). Also, a close cousin family member that picked up intuitively, changes when my mom was going to pass a week before. Take note: my mom at times was in and out of consciousness, but alert to sounds, voices, and small talk. This is not the traits of the dying brain misfiring dreamlets, memories, and a lack of oxygen that science explains that causes these experiences.
To read the reports and having the news jump on the band wagon of proof - along with science saying it's all in our brains, especially the angular gyrus being the culprit for these experiences. They fall short in experience and the documented evidence. You can base your conclusions on text book theory, but when experience intervenes its a
total different set of rules.
This is another experiement and test I am pursuing to experiment - show the comparisons.
If you read in the news article about virtual reality glasses and tricking the brain and not showing true veridical reality. Again, jumping to the conclusion that science can explain or try an attempt. What about putting individuals who do project regularly and who experienced the near death. Compare and contrast with different groups.
Again, we would know what the results would be.
My mom was able to give my family a gift and her dbv (death bed vision) was impeccable for validation.
Look for my publication soon from my web site and posting here.
Thank You,
Tvos
Thanks Tvos, codolences on your loss, but I know you passionately view it as a passing not an ending. I look forward to reading your publication. Please let us know on this board when it is ready.
Also I do agree with you that scientists have it a bit wrong. The cold light of reason becomes the warm glow of experience, when we actually witness a validation which defies all science and all scientists.
The reason today's scientists will claim that it's all in our brains is simple to understand. They do not have the machinery to travel into the astral plane, nor another dimension. Machines cannot vibrate on these levels--at least for now.
Perhaps, this could be yet another conspiracy of the government. Practicing OBE's, metaphysics, telepathy, etc. may scare the government because we think on a different level from the average person. Yes, governments don't want us to think; they prefer mindless slaves to work with their economy to pay taxes.
* Waits for the skeptics' responses *
Quote from: slipknot0129if obe is in the brain then the physical world is in your brain also
Wel conventional quantum mechanics teaches us that nothing exists until it is observed. So without some type of consciousness, the universe does not exist. Well that's what science teaches us..... Strange these scientists eh? :-)
Tvos, my condolences also on your mother's passing...and I am looking forward to reading your work. Your website looks great and I plan to visit on a regular basis. My father-in-law passed a few days ago so this subject is definitely on my mind. And phitau, that makes sense about how scientists think they way they do. Slipknot I read about that quantum mechanics thing also...how without consciousness to observe it the Universe would not exist. It's all so fascinating, interesting, confusing, maddening...one could spend an entire lifetime studying this stuff and never figure it out, at least that's how it seems to me. The fact that I can't figure it out is driving me nuts, I have decided I must figure it out.
I am really learning a lot from everyone's posts. Thank you all for all the fantastic information...it really helps me in my search for the "truth"
Now all I need to do is manage an OBE myself. I've practiced on and off for a few years with no luck. The closest I've ever came is the vibrational stage.
Thanks :)
Angela
Friends,
Thank You for the thoughts and condolences. Still never a less, the physical absence is a tough pill to swallow and it will take time, patience, and trials to heal! It's never easy losing your best friend, mentor to pain and age.
Sorry to hear about your father in-law passing Angela. It seems that the tide is turning and many people are shifting to their spiritual bodies. Just remember, your the one that has to endure the work, research and study for your own personal validation.
Tvos
This is very old news to us now : ]
Don't be upset when people speak with confidence about something they've only touched on. It can shake your determination and will to experience and explore the unknown. People in Olaf's position need to sound as though they know what they're talking about otherwise they can't secure funding.
Does anyone else think that "I am at the ceiling. I am looking down at my legs." sounds more like tunnel vision than OBE.
In general I quite like scientists and their discoveries, but it really pisses me off when they lose their objectivity and start stating that they have proven this or disproven that, when they haven't even skimmed the surface.
"I am at the ceiling. I am looking down at my legs." does not sound like any OBE I've had. However, this sounds quite similar to the tunnel vision that I get when I get really severe migraines. Everything gets smaller, like you are looking at it from further away than you actually are.
Even if they were able to induce an OBE by stimulating the brain, that does not prove that OBE are figments of our minds. If the person that OBE'd through this method viewed a non-local event, then it would prove that there is something paranormal to OBEs.
I will not even say for certain that OBEs are not fully induced by the mind, as I have not been able to subjectively verify this to myself. But what I can tell you, is that it is a hell of a lot cooler than: "I am at the ceiling. I am looking down at my legs."
Quote from: TemperModeIn general I quite like scientists and their discoveries, but it really pisses me off when they lose their objectivity and start stating that they have proven this or disproven that, when they haven't even skimmed the surface.
Colourful language but bang on the money. In fact good post.
At worst Blanke is barking up the wrong tree. At best he has discovered a way of ejecting people out of their bodies. In either case there is absolutely nothing in his results to suggest "it's is all in the mind".
Actually Blanke has done a number of studies regarding OBEs, but it's a shame his mindset
seems to be to debunk rather than to enlighten.
That's how it seems, I could be wrong of course.... 8-)