Vibration Dogma

[beavis]

Why do they say astral is a higher vibration frequency? They say astral vibrates the same way physical places do but at a higher frequency. Frequency is not a vague word used to describe things you dont fully understand. It means 1 / wavelength. I and many others have felt "vibrations" OBE and other psychic things, but what we feel does not translate directly to a physics model. Where does this dogma come from that astral is vibrating that way?

[Logic]

How is it a dogma, and why do you think otherwise. Everything else in the universe vibrates, so why wouldn't this?

[beavis]

Its dogma because if astral did have a frequency, how would you know if its lower or higher than the frequency here? You might feel different "vibrations" and energies, but that could mean lots of things.

A very high pitched sound probably feels like a higher frequency than the lowest frequency color, but colors have frequency 1000 times more than sound.

I've read nothing of attempts to measure those frequencies directly. Given the error of perception in physical things, the error when percieving nonphysical things will be more. Until a more logical attempt is made, its dogma.

It can vibrate without having the same kind of frequency as physical things. It could vibrate in a completely perpendicular direction in extra dimensions or weirder ways if the space isnt continuous from one millimeter to the next.

Do you have a logical reason to think it has frequency?

[Telos]

[Edit: Excellent thread].

Everytime I think about how new agers superfluously use the word "vibration," I invariably think about how quantum physicists seem to have trouble using it as well. This is one case where I don't know what either side is talking about - even quantum physicists admit they don't know what they're talking about.

In both cases, the glaring question is, "what is vibrating?"

For the new ager, it isn't important. Spirit, matter, energy, stuff, it doesn't matter, because the new age answer to that question is everything conceivable vibrates, including thought, emotion, and consciousness. Throw in some chakras for good measure, stir in "vital energies," heat to boil, and you've got yourself a wider reality of psychic soup.

For the quantum physicist, mathematical precision is more important. The more accurately we can explain the precise nature of the thing that this vibrating (preferably with the use of simple mathematics) the more precision we'd have in predicting, manipulating, and creating our reality. Since at the quantum level there appears to be a frivolous amount of chaos and contradiction, particles looking like waves, cats living with dogs, and so forth, physicists don't know what to say other than, "probability is vibrating." In other words, we measure the thing that this vibrating by measuring the probability of an outcome. Beyond that we can't measure, because our measuring devices aren't at a short enough wavelength.

"But hold on!" The new ager says.

*drum beats*

Spirit itself vibrates at a shorter wavelength (higher frequency)! It's what is constantly creating the universe! Spirit measures what light and electron microscopes cannot!

Ahh.. harmony.

But if that's true, and we are constantly creating ourselves, how could we have ever believed that we were separate from God?

[daem0n]

don't know if it sounds like new age dogma, but didn't it strike you as odd that feeling/whatever you call it/ of separation (and unconsciousness itself)  is very conscious effort ?

i could add interesting theory about zero-point energy
http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Wingmakers/Zero-Point%20Energy.html

and so called tachyon energy
http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/Wingmakers/Tachyon%20Energy.html

we rely on what we can, i have a feeling (totally unreliable ) that whatever we could feel, some would turn it into dogma, no exceptions

[Frank]

Beavis:

I have no idea why. I suppose someone came up with the idea originally and then everyone cuckooed everyone else to the point where it became "fact". I suppose you could say in a manner of speaking non-physical realms "vibrate" at a different "frequency" than the physical. But the key phrase is, of course, "in a manner of speaking" and with very guarded use of the words vibrate and frequency.

People continually parrot the notion of "there" being "higher". But I guess people are not going to step out of thousands of years of religious and/or mystical conditioning overnight. The simple fact remains there is no higher or lower in consciousness, consciousness simply is.  

Yours,
Frank

[Tombo]

Why do they say astral is a higher vibration frequency? They say astral vibrates the same way physical places do but at a higher frequency. Frequency is not a vague word used to describe things you dont fully understand. It means 1 / wavelength. I and many others have felt "vibrations" OBE and other psychic things, but what we feel does not translate directly to a physics model. Where does this dogma come from that astral is vibrating that way?

Good point! I suppose the idea come from physics. If something vibrates higher (or lower for that sake) then the frequency we can see/hear then it disappear from our senses. For example UV-light or ultrasonic. I guess some people then figured that the Astral must have a different vibration rate then our physical world and since the Astral is considered to be something higher, better etc they figured "higher" I guess. But as you said there is no reason to assume this!

[Nay]

I'm not very bright when it comes to this kind of topic, but this does remind me of this show I was watching last night about the 'String Theory'  

They never mentioned about vibrations..infact I was waiting for that.  Instead they kept mentioning density.  They say that the string theory proves that we are surrounded by parallel universes (which I can relate to)

There was also talk about something called the "M" theory.  They couldn't even say what it was..hehe.  Some call it the Mystical something or other. Can someone explain this to me, and please type it slowly so I can understand.

Nay

[Tombo]

I'm not very bright when it comes to this kind of topic, but this does remind me of this show I was watching last night about the 'String Theory'  

They never mentioned about vibrations..infact I was waiting for that.  Instead they kept mentioning density.  They say that the string theory proves that we are surrounded by parallel universes (which I can relate to)

There was also talk about something called the "M" theory.  They couldn't even say what it was..hehe.  Some call it the Mystical something or other. Can someone explain this to me, and please type it slowly so I can understand.

Nay

Havent seent he show    If someone could give my a link or something were the M-theorie is explained I would read it and try to explain what I understand. Not that I'm supersmart or something but I'm usually pretty good in explaining things.

[Telos]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/program.html

[beavis]

daem0n

whatever we could feel, some would turn it into dogma, no exceptions

Yes, but I'm open-minded and have experienced the same things that others talk about that make them think it has frequency. I'm not out to prove its false like some skeptics.

MajorTom

the language and words we use to describe states of consciousness evolved from metaphors associated with human behaviour or observavle things (vibrations), and physics is just one of those metaphors.

I dont think its usually used as a metaphor. You use it that way. What does it mean?

Frank

People continually parrot the notion of "there" being "higher". But I guess people are not going to step out of thousands of years of religious and/or mystical conditioning overnight. The simple fact remains there is no higher or lower in consciousness, consciousness simply is.

I think it literally is higher, in extra dimensions (with unknown shape). It takes more energy to roll a ball up a physical hill. Moving consciousness closer to astral is very similar to a weirdly shaped hill. I can sometimes feel the shape of "real time zone" or astral very close to the physical place I'm in. It has hills and valleys that energy must be used to push things up.

[Tombo]

Thanks  for the link Telos!

I'm not very bright when it comes to this kind of topic, but this does remind me of this show I was watching last night about the 'String Theory'  

They never mentioned about vibrations..infact I was waiting for that.  Instead they kept mentioning density.  They say that the string theory proves that we are surrounded by parallel universes (which I can relate to)

There was also talk about something called the "M" theory.  They couldn't even say what it was..hehe.  Some call it the Mystical something or other. Can someone explain this to me, and please type it slowly so I can understand.

Nay

O.k. I now watched the last hour of the program, cause if thought that that would be the relevant part.
Hnmmmmmmm....
What would you like to understand specifically? I can't like explain you the whole M-theory or something (I do not have the mathematic Know How)
So if you could give a hint I could try to explain a part of it.
Basically I thought the show was very interesting and I thought about Astral Planes as well!
In a Nutshell M-theory predicts that we live in a 11-Dimensional Universe.
Imagine a Piece of Paper, now imagine People that live in this 2-D world, This guys have no clue what 3-D could feel like, they can not leave the paper plane into 3-D-Space. Now M-Theory suggest that our 3-D-Universe is just like a piece of paper in a higher dimensional room (they call it, "Branes" or Parallel Universes) , There may be other "pieces of paper" there in this Room (they call bulk) wich contain alien worlds (Like the Astral.......)
In order to communicate or go to these other "pieces of Paper" (or lets call them Planes) one needs to leave this Plane (our Universe) they suggest that this would be possible for closed Strings. They further suggest that Gravity is caused by Gravitons and that Gravitons are closed strings (they did not say that the Graviton is the only closed string)
Now they also said that they them self do not understand all possibilities that M-theory offers, so...............
I would pick out the raisins:
There are other Planes (Universes, Branes, or whatever you call them)
This Planes could be completely alien to our world, they could be populated and it could be possible to communicate with them or even go there! Since we do not know what conscious really is nothing is impossible.
The Astral is definitely in the game!
This may sound unscientific, but thats what I understood.....

[Xetrov]

Why do they say astral is a higher vibration frequency? They say astral vibrates the same way physical places do but at a higher frequency. Frequency is not a vague word used to describe things you dont fully understand. It means 1 / wavelength. I and many others have felt "vibrations" OBE and other psychic things, but what we feel does not translate directly to a physics model. Where does this dogma come from that astral is vibrating that way?

Here we are confusing two different meanings of the phrase "higher frequency". The first meaning is: physical matter can move slow or fast and thus has a low or high frequency. The second covers the notion that the astral is in some way 'higher' then the physical, and this can very well be a dogma or else merely a notion that someone came up with and  the rest of us just stuck with it. However you can also see it in this way. If you want something, you can say it is something 'higher' for you to reach. In the case of spiritual development, we are talking about continuously broadening our awareness and increasing our positive / love emotions. So, metaphorically speaking, you can say that 'spiritual frequency' covers a classification of conscious and emotional levels from lower to higher. In this way there are different frequencies which range from low (to what we are now), to high (what we want to reach). Now, I also think it happens to be so that there are different layers in the astral that correspond to different levels (or dimensions) of awareness and emotion, so you can also speak of a higher frequency of certain astral levels. Ofcourse there is no such thing as universally 'good' or 'bad', so this is entirely a personal matter, it only is like this when you want to reach these other levels. But then, who wouldnt want to broaden his or her awareness (except those that prefer to stay narrow minded), and who wouldnt want to evolve their emotional states (except those that prefer their current condition)?

[Rastus]

I prefer the term density.  The higher dimensions(5D/6D/7D/etc, not higher as in more good or spiritual) are less dense, the lower dimensions(1D/2D/3D/4D) more dense.  All the dimensions exist in the same 'space', just as differnt colors of light and radio spectrum can exist in the same space.

Matter is simply energy that is more dense (and at a lower frequency).

Why do I 'believe' it?  That's easy, I can shift my vibrations higher and change my perceptions.  It takes more effort for me to shift and see peoples Mental energy body than it does their Etheric body(I can't do it when I'm having a 'bad' day).  That makes for some pretty empirical evidence.  The same thing goes for Astral Vision.  Ask the adept projectors, to hit certain planes on the astral, they have to vibrate 'higher', and if you 'lower' your vibration through fear you fall back 'down' to where your vibrations match.  That's why many people never project past the etheric/lower astral.

[Nostic]

To me, it just seems like a particular description that has happened to gain popularity. Like Rastus said, you can use density if you want, or whatever else feels appropriate for you.

[beavis]

Tombo

In a Nutshell M-theory predicts that we live in a 11-Dimensional Universe.
Imagine a Piece of Paper, now imagine People that live in this 2-D world, This guys have no clue what 3-D could feel like, they can not leave the paper plane into 3-D-Space. Now M-Theory suggest that our 3-D-Universe is just like a piece of paper in a higher dimensional room (they call it, "Branes" or Parallel Universes) , There may be other "pieces of paper" there in this Room (they call bulk) wich contain alien worlds (Like the Astral.......)
In order to communicate or go to these other "pieces of Paper" (or lets call them Planes) one needs to leave this Plane (our Universe) they suggest that this would be possible for closed Strings. They further suggest that Gravity is caused by Gravitons and that Gravitons are closed strings (they did not say that the Graviton is the only closed string)

If that theory is true, then the hills and valleys I feel like I'm pushing things up and down during telekinesis could be me bending part of our "paper" in a brane. A closed string should be able to float between papers, is compatible with.... Your consciousness can float away best if its not psychicly connected to physical things. I literally mean partially-physical connections, probably related to quantum entanglement. It explains parallel universes the same way I do... that theres not infinite copies, but there are some, and they're connected at many points and at weird angles, often sharing the same particles.

I prefer the term density. The higher dimensions(5D/6D/7D/etc, not higher as in more good or spiritual

Higher doesnt always mean better. If you go too high, you'll drift off into space, maybe burn in the sun, but definitely suffocate.

Matter is simply energy that is more dense (and at a lower frequency).

Scientists know this info (but I dont). Look up the frequency of the "quantum wave function" for mass and energy particles.

Why do I 'believe' it? That's easy, I can shift my vibrations higher and change my perceptions. It takes more effort for me to shift and see peoples Mental energy body than it does their Etheric body(I can't do it when I'm having a 'bad' day). That makes for some pretty empirical evidence. The same thing goes for Astral Vision. Ask the adept projectors, to hit certain planes on the astral, they have to vibrate 'higher', and if you 'lower' your vibration through fear you fall back 'down' to where your vibrations match. That's why many people never project past the etheric/lower astral.

That only means there is some continuous range which your spirit and environment occupy. It doesnt mean its amount of vibration, a dimension, or whatever else you can guess.

[Telos]

Well, density equals mass over volume. Matter is dense when a large amount of mass is in a small volume of space.

D = M / V

The same matter can enter low density by increasing its volume. So I think I understand you Rastus - we increase our influence over the world by increasing the volume/area of our energy body?

Even our physical body is really energy, right? Or at least, it has an energy equivalent to the tune of its mass times the speed of light squared.

e = mc^2

Quantum particles are waves (vibrations) that create mass through their disturbance of spacetime. The more mass that is created, the more the waves are especially close to one another and therefore dense, influencing a smaller volume.

I should probably go to meditate on that

[DG]

"Frequency", "vibrations", "energy", and all similar words used in new age and OBE literature, has nothing to do with the same terms used in physical science. For someone with engineering background, this is confusing, and I have constantly to make efforts to remind myself that it is only metaphors and parables, used to convey an idea that is very difficult to describe in earthly terms.

Usually, in that kind of literature, you can freely substitute "energy" with "frequency" / "vibration" / "plane" / "spirit" / "dimension"/ "focus" / "density", and so on, and still get the same idea.

Actually, the frequency is equal 1 / t, where t is the period, or the time of one cycle of periodic function.

It does not make any sense to talk about frequency of the astral plane, because one cannot measure any of its parameters, or even define what is it that vibrates.

IMO, the word "energy" used in AD and MAP books, is just a metaphor describing the sensations in your body caused by focusing your attention on it. It is a known phenomenon in physiology.

Cheers,

DG.

[beavis]

Thats the most common kind of density, but not the only one. Theres also a density of prime numbers on a numberline, and population density.

I think psychic energy and science energy are the same thing, but in a similar form. Psychic energy can be converted to kinetic.

The 2 "vibration"s also share some properties.

[Tombo]

From a Physical Viewpoint, I think the following definitions are pretty good:

Vibration = A periodic process or A rapid linear motion of a particle or of an elastic solid about an equilibrium position.


Density = The quantity of something per unit measure, especially per unit length, area, or volume.

Since we do not know, what the Astral does consists of I see no reason to assume something is vibrating there. Same is true for Density. If we say the Astral has a different density the the Physical, we need to assume that the astral is build of the same "something" then our Physical world and that this something is measurable. No evidence to assume this, I think.

[MontanaHayseed]

It's an interesting question and one that I have puzzled over some myself, as I like my occultist notions to be workable.. tangibly useful.


The idea of The clock speed of an operating computer might shed a little light on the matter: The faster the clock speed, the more data that computer can process in a given amount of time.  To leap directly to the point.. the "higher frequency" of your latest appo-zappo Pentium 5000 makes it possible to have luxurious sound and color  to display information.... compare that with the good ole klunk-o-matic Commodore 64, eh?  That older machine, even if it had all the time in the world, could never begin to do what the the much faster one does.  This faster vibration makes it possible for the computer to not only  "act with a more fluid and richer expression", but also it can  read information through its sensing devices that much more quickly and richly as well.  So, whatever this higher vibration stuff is, there is one model to work with.

Now here is a second.... and this one is relative to the the "perceiver".  Imagine a medium sized boat toodlling across the wide sea. Waves that it may meet up with are roughly of three kinds:  Those much larger than it (say... waves that are longer than maybe twice the length of the boat) waves that are less than half the length of boat.. so,  much shorter than the boat, and waves that are roughly the size of the boat.  The long waves don't give the boat much trouble... it rides up them, and then down the other side.  Small waves present no grief at all.... the boat rides over several at once and doesn't even notice them.  But waves the same size as the boat give it a rough ride indeed,... smacking the boat, (which is of the same wavelength and therefore able to sense and receive the maximum energy of the wave), back and forth, up and down, quite unpleasantly.  So this snapshot of vibration suggests to us that for any particular wave or frequency there is an ideal perceiving device that in part is the same length as the primary wave.... and also that for any sensing device, it will hear certain wave(s) best.

In general, we have the principal that the shorter the wave the higher the frequency.... the smaller the particle, the greater the CPS that it tends to rattle around at..  This "Astral Stuff", of which the nether world is apparently made, is said to be "finer" which means smaller, which again implies a "higher frequency" and indeed, we seem to get the same "enhanced reality" kinds of results as we did with the higher frequency computer clock....  toodling about on the astral plane,  reality can seem much much richer...... even the colors are sensuous to the point of distraction... sounds can be so rich as to be unimaginable to put into written form of music.  Emotional subtleties there simply cannot  be fathomed in our  relatively coarse physical plane.



Since we most pain-in-the-assedly do not have any means at this point of  absolute measure ( as in "Hey man!  I got my astral body up to 30,000 gigahertz the other night and made it all the way to the cosmic buddhic plane in a whole nother dimension!") we are stuck hunting around for relative measures  ....   (I have a higher vibration than I did yesterday, but not as high as it was last week") and even these are discomfit tingly subjective.

Hmm.  What to do? Well if the whole pile of fluff above is correct, it must be that if the astral (or consciousness itself, if you like) operates at varying clocking speeds,  then some indication of the currently clocking speed ought to be had by simply noticing what one is perceiving.  (Way Duh, I know ;-/  )   Too then, this suggest that  if the quality of the reality you are perceiving is a function of the rate of "astral frequency", then selecting for certain perceptions may well encourage or sensitize or habituate the perceiver to that specialized frequency.. whether higher, lower, or of different timbre.  This gives us:  "reading spiritual books may tend to raise our vibration.... or adjust it to that range..... watching porn gets or vibrations going more in THAT direction (which, for some people, oddly enough , might still be"up") .    But this gives us nothing new here either.  That song from the Sound of Music, "My Favorite Things" summed it up rather well after all I guess.  Too, it is hard to be depressed (which I way associate with low frequency slow type vibes) or even lethargic when listening to high energy rock and roll.. literally, the faster the beat (up to a point, and that point seems to be closely allied with the ability of the physical body to move to it in some manner) the higher the energy of the music..

Well after all that puzzling I did not arrive at much of an answer I am afraid.  But I DO feel more solidly grounded in my confusion. <{;-D

What we need is an astralometer that will give a reliable accurate reading of rate (and quality?) of the vibrations of whatever astrally thing we want to measure.  ... and in order for THAT to happen, it needs to be made of, or sensitive to astral material.    

Ideas anyone?

MH