The Astral Pulse

I enjoy a hearty chuckle, thank you.

Yours,
Frank

you make a valid point....as a projector myself i would love to prove it but like yourself have never had the ability to control an OBE in the real time zone....and it often ;puzzled me as to why for example Sylvan muldoon did not attempt exactly the sort of experiment you suggest..Ive tried that in years past with the Oxford institute of psyophysical research with NO success....as you are aware Robert monroe tried this with Charles tart and did not succeed although he did perceive a non target environment at the experimental area..ie a woman speaking to her husband in the corridor...we have to explain why it does not happen..I could give a lot of reasons which are basically a waste of time since they will always be legitimately described as "excuses"..but on the other hand i would not judge others as to why they do not attempt it..I have 100% confidence in the sincerity of robert bruce etc...he's spent years serving folks on this an previous sites with true humility and voluntary ( sometimes thnakless)service..( unlike a lot we could mention) ...but an interesting aspect of all this is explained in Rudolf Steiner's "Theosophy" as to why psychic events tend not to be "provable"..as i say it sounds an "excuse" but that doesnt make it necessarily invalid....but your main point as to why OBE's have never been proved is of course a valid one and I totally accept it....
michael

Greetings amir_noma!

Most amusing  - I guess the weekend is a good time for lighter posts

Only $1M though? We have someone else on this forum who is apparently being offered $21.5M!

People who offer these rewards are usually after public sensationalism  - I would suggest that no serious spiritually minded person would ever entertain such a notion.

Oh, and one more thing  - accusing Robert Bruce of being a charlatan is not the way to be taken seriously or make friends on these forums.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Dear friends.

Reading your replies i have 3 points which i must make clear:

1. My "Accusation" of Robert Bruce should not be taken literaly. It was, and has been successfully made in order to capture your attention. I hold the Greatest respect for Robert Bruce, and have looked up to him since i have found about the existance of OBE.

2. As for the "Prize Money", the reason "Randy The Amazing" (Stage name if you do not know of him) Has founded a fund, which will give 1 Million Dollars to whome ever proves the existance of psychic phenomena. It is not a hoax but a stimulate. If someone truly can proove it he would logically have little trouble of earning some money this way, besides money to be made by writing books and such.

3. As for the possibilty that because of the human mind experiments per experimentaion of psychic phenomena cannot give positive resaults. It maybe true but, considering Bruce to be the most experienced projector i have yet to hear of, i would, and am expecting him to face this challenge, and perhaps change the way almost half of the population of this planet beleive about psychic phenomena in general and Obe in particular.

                                                                              Amir Noma

yes Amir..you make another valid point...as i said if i could control a real time OBE I would be the first to attempt randi's challenge....ethically one could donate the 1 million to some legitimate charity whatever..but regarding this one can only decide these things for oneself..plenty of reasons can be given why folk dont volunteeer for this..we can only make out own decisions...bearing in mind there are mediums and psychics by the thousands if not millions i wonder why they dont apply..i have seen for example transfiguration mediums..totally genuine and so on..where i have seen spirit beings "materialize"..in front of me..I have seen many spirits myself...but this sort of thing cannot be brought on line at one's will for many reasons...as i say if i could do it i would....
michael

Greetings Amir_noma!

I can see where you are coming from.

But the sponsor of this prize might well be making exactly the same mistake as other many people who issue these challenges, and that is by thinking that that the people with these abilities, and are being challenged to prove them, actually want to prove something - e.g. to be a public phenomena.

If that is indeed the thinking, then the sponsors have got things very wrong IMO. Most, if not all of these disciplines are highly spiritual and personal, and often steps along the way to much greater heights where material things such as cash are completely meaningless. There are people with powers and abilities that would make the general public (for want of a better expression) truly amazed, and such people could, if they chose to do so, become overnight sensations. But most such people would never entertain such a notion, and the same goes for most people who are involved in most, if not all highly spiritual pursuits. There have been exceptions of course - Uri Geller comes to mind, but I am not sure of his spirituality or motives.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Agreed, Adrian, it's just SO darned funny how some people can only relate to the world in terms of money. Maybe the originator of this thread is genuine in what they say. But, I can't help laughing. I'm sorry.

I just have this vision of obe'ing and the moment I do so, "Randy The Amazing" steps out like some traffic cop with with a speed-gun.

Yours,
Frank

Greetings Frank!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frank:

I just have this vision of obe'ing and the moment I do so, "Randy The Amazing" steps out like some traffic cop with with a speed-gun.

Yours,
Frank

---

 A speed-gun in one hand, and a cheque for a million bucks in the other  

With best regards,

Adrian.

LOL

Today is probably the biggest chuckle-day I've had for some time.

Thank you.

Yours,
Frank

ss

Hello Amir
  I know that Robert Bruce is not a charlatan. I heard about his book and decided to astral project to see if he could really astral project. I met him on the astral plane and we talked about a lot of stuff. He told me to write him, and then yelled at me "Remember, Remember, Remember."  I couldn't believe that he had yelled at me but I did write him.
  I have also heard about the Great Randi and all of the people he has discredited by setting things up so he won't lose his million dollars. He is not the way to prove anything. Houdini had a sincere belief in things and I can respect him and his efforts. I know people who have been humilated and set up by the Great Randi. I wish you luck in your efforts Amir and it does make for a good laugh.
  Nita

Hi amir_noma

I know what you are going through,but when you gather some more info on it & predesessors of the OBE cause you will find much debunking & ridicule by the science & religion establishments,the one time they do stand together.

We covered this topic in "Search for Osama",check it out for some background on why people don't do it.While I know I can OBE & can RV to a certain extent,trying to get a correct answer when the scenario is all stacked against you & real time is pretty hard.I've done real time quite a few times but have no real control over it.Like Adrian said only $1 million,CTG labs was offering a cut of $21.5 million pound,but wait there's more.To re-hash a few points made back in the Osama topic.If you have this ability & money is what it's all about for you,why only 1 million on a gameshow or lottery,why not work the stock exchange for millions & billions without anyone knowing but a few.Sounds like it's an invitation to the chopping block if you ask me.

What we are talking about here is something that could potentially cripple all pre-established science & religious beliefs,do you think they would stand back & let that happen?Lots of money we are talking about here,just look around you at any westernised city in the world,notice that most of the positions on the top of hills (prime real-estate)are usually churches or have been owned by the church? They are not silly,they silently & tax freely amass fortunes & very much depend on NO-ONE ever succeeding that test.

All the best mate,good journeys

Mobius

It has been my experience that the more you learn and can do the more you feel the responsability of the knowlage.  

michael
"as a projector myself i would love to prove it but like yourself have never had the ability to control an OBE in the real time zone"

It is highly possible that after you are able to control real time zone OBE's you would loose the desire to make such an attempt.  It maybe at that point when you realize just exactly what it is that you can do and what it means.  

I find it often very rare that you hear about those that are "truely great" in any such persuits.  And when you do hear about then it is not on the regular news medium.  And if you hear about them at all it is only because they managed to get a book published, and they have often done so not for thier own selfishness but because they are trying to get the word out and help those that are like them but have no where else to turn for help.

Like Mr. Bruce putting out PPSD.  It seems, AND PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG, to be aimed at people who are aware of what is happening to them but have been able to find little or no help on the subject.  So where does a person go for help?  Thier local doctor?  No, they would think you mad and try to get you counseling, or worse.  The church then maybe?  They only investigate a handfull of such issues and thier help is often motivated by money or power.  The common person has little resources for help in such matters.

And honestly if some one was putting a book out on the subject only to make money do you think that it would only run $13.50 for a autographed copy.  No it would be closer to $20 or $30.  Go look for an autographed copy of a Steven King book or Anne Rice.

"The more balanced some one becomes the more they see both sides of the story."

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com

Greetings everyone!

The problem with scientists is that they are, for the most part, well and truly entrenched in the physical universe by their education and careers. They surely cannot and dare not contemplate the possibililty of parallel dimensions, planes, realms etc., because it would against everything they know and their careers, and would cause a real life crisis for them, and everything they have believed and understood. So they can take the easy way out by going into denial, and all of their tests and experiments, rather than being objective, are always designed to disprove anything considered to be paranormal or metaphysical. Accordingly, they hang on to all evidence that suits them, and discard everything that does not, or dismiss it as an experimental error etc..

Psychologists appear to be among the worst for this in my humble opinion, because they have the most to lose - or so they apparently think.  Psychologists are also usually respected people, and so the general public believes them without question. And then there are such things as space travel - which costs trillions of dollars - no scientist or government is going to accept the fact that out of body you can travel around the universe instantly, or that space travel is really a complete a waste of time because it is an illusion of the physical universe. I really can't see the point in even trying to convince these people - does it even matter what they think? If they do not or cannot yet believe, or at least be capable of being open minded, then they are clearly not ready to accept at least the possibility of these alternative realities, much less investigate them further.

Also, how can higher Astral travel ever be proved, when one is dealing with entities and an environment that is fluid, and beyond physical description and comprehension. The best possibilty would be to prove OBE's in the real time zone by visiting somewhere and describing it accurately. But even that is not conclusive of course, because the travel is still in the lowest part of the Astral planes, and subject to Astral laws such as reality fluctuations.

At the final analysis - why bother? The vast majority of the human race is clearly not ready for that knowledge yet, although as time goes by more and more people will be become ready, and will accept the reality of other planes, but this process can only occur in conformity with Divine will, and not by human scientific experimentation. It is encumbent on everyone to assist true seekers to the extent they can do, but not enforce their experiences or opinions on others, and not by means of money.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Hey
I can project in the real time zone

Ill do it for a 1.1 million
It would be a piece of cake !!!

........................
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/[][][][][][][][][][][][]
........................

Just kidding
Lol
Blah

Heres what would probably happen to me
I would get out
find the piece of paper
and marvel in how its shiny and illuminating white light
then Id get confused by my 360 degree vision and end up on a different floor of the building
and then forget what I was doing and inspect a shadow because it looks 3d.

lol...Astral projection is like the Ultimate A. D. D.

........................
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/[][][][][][][][][][][][]
........................

Hi Adrian......regarding your last post i have to disagree...scientists and psychologists are in my opinion perfectly entitled to ask for proof...there are so many charlatans as you know in the psychic field..Ive seen dozens in my time and only a few who could produce the goods..the point is that we have to explain why those of us who cannot control real time projections are faced with that difficulty..fluctuation of most if not all astral projection environments is a good enough reason..those of us who do project know that we are not hallucinating etc...astral projection is about the only subjective spiritual experience that cannot be doubted when you experience it..understanding and controlling it is a different matter....maybe in the course of spiritual evolution  more people will develop the chakras etc enough to control it properly and then proof will come..so far this is not the case.....

Greetings Michael!

I think you misundersand my point - or at least I didn't get to what I wanted to say - and that is - why should we try to prove anything to scientists?

Why does it matter whether they believe it or not?

Science is all about the physical, material, mundane world, and that is the level at which scientists work. There is nothing wrong with that of course.

But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.

Trying to prove OBE to a psychologist, is about as much use as trying to prove the laws of relativity to an Architect or whatever.  Why bother?

The person that has everything to gain is the person who is actually experiencing the OBE or other spiritual experience, and which experience is deeply personal.

With best regards,

Adrian.

What *I* am getting a chuckle out of is watching all these people come up with all these excuses about how not ONE PERSON out of the 4 billion in the world can come forward and claim one of these rewards. But we've already been over all this in the Osama thread so I'm not going to hash it all up again here....

>>But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.<<

I agree with this statement in terms of the astral dimensions and higher, but if the real time zone exists, as many claim it does, then it should be EASILY provable scientifically.

Atlas

Originally posted by Adrian:
Greetings Atlas!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atlas:

>>But the Occult, Paranormal, Supernatural, Metaphysical, Spiritual fields are nothing to do with conventional science.<<

I agree with this statement in terms of the astral dimensions and higher, but if the real time zone exists, as many claim it does, then it should be EASILY provable scientifically.

Atlas

---

In my view, and that of many, the "real time zone" is still the Astral, albeit the lowest part where it merges with the physical, and is accordingly subject to the same laws. At best this area of the Astral is a reflection of the physical.

Many people have proved OBE based upon these factors, but conventional science will not, in my view, accept anything less than the sort of proof that will be almost impossible to provide, due to the physical universe emphasis of conventional science.That is the difference between science as it pertains to the physical universe, and that pertaining to the Astral realms and beyond.

I really do not think there is any point trying to satisfy conventional science or medicine on the subject of OBE, alternative dimensions of reality, and all of the spiritual implications of same. Those that are genuinely interested, for all the right reasons can discover the other dimensions of reality in the same way that everyone else does - by seeking and experiencing it for themselves.

With best regards,

Adrian.

To all the OOB community
I honestly believe, based on my own experiences, that RB's "Astral Dynamics" conveys a wealth of knowledge that, once put in practice, can take you to a "separate reality".

What I am not sure enough whether this other reality is "within/outside" our brain, reason why I need to share with the forum what I just have read about this possibility ... and thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide.

This is what I read ...

************************************************************************************************************
In Stephen Laberge's book  "Exploring the World of Dreaming" (Stephen is a PhD from Stanford University, whose doctoral thesis dealt with Lucid Dreaming), he writes (sometimes using statements from other authors such as P. Tholey) the following:

" A second body is an unnecessary assumption based on a naïve epistemology"

" OOBEs often give us the compelling impression that we have a second, different and separated body: the physical, earthly body and a more ethereal one, the astral body.

In fact, a person experiences only ONE BODY ... and this is not the physical body, but a BODY IMAGE, that is the brain's representation of the physical body. The BODY IMAGE is what we experience anytime we feel embodied, whether in our physical, dream or astral body.

Thus, once you have fully relaxed and feel that your physical body is in a profound state of sleep paralysis, remember that the body image you are currently experiencing as a paralyzed physical body, cannot move because sensory information is telling your brain that your physical body is motionless.

When you go deeper into a REM (Rapid Eyes Movement) sleep, all sensory information is cutoff and there will be no information (except memory) indicating that your body is still in the position that it was before, reason why now you are free to feel movement of your BODY IMAGE without any contradiction from your sensory systems: your BODY IMAGE can move without reference to the actual position of your physical body, as it naturally does in dreams.

Simply imagine that your BODY IMAGE can move again: imagine that you are somewhere other than sleeping in bed and ... once you experience that your BODY IMAGE (now, your DREAM BODY), is out of bed, you will not longer feel the sensations from your paralyzed physical body.

As soon as you step out of bed, remember that you are moving in your dream body and that everything around you is a dream thing too: EVERYTHING YOU SEE IS YOUR DREAM".
************************************************************************************************************

Cheers.

jucafern

James Randi is the sole judge of his reward, hence why no one has won. Send in a neutral third party and watch him run away.

Here are a few links that might be of interest.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/psyzone/winston.htm

and

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/index.html

oh and...

http://www.victorzammit.com/challenge.html

Great links! Thanks! Who says there's no proof:

(taken from the above links)

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter16.html

Mark

Greetings MJ-12!

quote:

---

Originally posted by MJ-12:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/index.html

---

This is a really excellent site - I am so impressed I have added it to the forums links pages

Thank you!

With best regards,

Adrian.

df

Mj 12,thanks mate,I had the anglefire link,but the zammit link I didn't,very cool & good to see something in print that was reinforcing what we were saying.
Big money is involved here & one of the unfortunate side effects of science is,if you want to get a grant or apply for funds,you must prove why the money should go to you & not someone else.So even though science appears to be all under one big brotherhood umbrella,that's not the case,most fields of research or methods practiced,will be visciously opposed to each other.

I don't know about Robert's abilities except for what is written in his book & in here,but for me,the relative ease that I can fall into an OBE is largely dependent on my home,it's feel,my bed,my lounge & conditions.I have had some success with OBE's away from home & different surroundings,but nowhere near the ease I have at home.So imagine going to one of these staged money giveaway, science/religion verses the astral & trying to induce an OBE with all these lights & camera's rolling & T.V set  which is stacked highly against the astral traveller.So that naturally the subject will fail & they can announce to everyone "Well that proves it folks,we can see that statistically & scientifically,there is no basis to this OBE concept whatsoever,so all the sponsors & financial institutions have nothing to worry about,keep the money rollin. OK now that we have Mr Bruces head,we can tell all the people he has helped,that it was all in their heads,who's next?".

Good journeys all

Mobius

This was actually done under lab conditions by Miss "Z" and someone else.

She successfully read a 5-digit number placed 5foot above her head.

I have a website with a (rather large) essay which includes this info... Ill see if I can find it.

- Ashfo

Hi Ashfo..hate to quibble but the experiment you mention was conducted in the late 60's by Dr Charles tart( who also tested robert monroe)..and although tart is extremely sympatheitc and basically a beleiver in psychic powers etc...discounted the experiment where the woman read the 5 digit number since it turned out that she could have read the number due to it reflecting from something or the other..so it invalidated the experiment..in saying that the article by the guy answering sceptics is really excellent....
michael

Hi Mobius

>>with all these lights & camera's rolling & T.V set<<

Again, I think this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. I can't imagine a scientist wouldnt afford the test subject all the conditions they require to do the OBE. It's not like they'd through them in some studio with a spot light and an audience.


>> which is stacked highly against the astral traveller.So that naturally the subject will fail & they can announce to everyone "Well that proves it folks,we can see that statistically & scientifically,there is no basis to this OBE concept whatsoever,so all the sponsors & financial institutions have nothing to worry about,keep the money rollin. OK now that we have Mr Bruces head,we can tell all the people he has helped,that it was all in their heads,who's next?".<<

The other problem here is that you have people like RB, who I respect, but who make their bread and butter with this stuff. I can understand why he might not want to subject himself to this kind of test because if he fails or can't perform, his living goes down the drain. It's only smart for him to say no.  BUT...not everyone who successfully OBEs regularly is making a living off of it or has some kind of "guru" status, nor do you have to be some kind of ascended spirit to have frequent/controlled OBEs. These are the people I would think would gladly come forward, at least ONE of them, and take this risk to win a bunch of money. So you fail the test...big deal. All you have to tell your friends was that you were hoping you'd luck out and win a million bucks.

Atlas

Hey Atlas

Well I,m not sure what these scientists are willing to accept as far as conditions go,but going by a recent debunking fest held here in Australia,well last year,this famous skeptic (I forget his name)from the USA had a $1 million reward for these people who claimed to have healing abilities.After these people were interviewed countless times on current affairs programs before hand & people testified to being healed from these people.

Regardless of all this & requests for conditions which suited the practicioners,they were denied & were told that it was the skeptics money up for grabs here & they require what they call a controlled environment in which to scientifically evaluate the process effectively.This equated into these people being put up on stage with 1 believing subject & 2 skeptical subjects,on stage,with lights,camera's & live audience.

After the practicioners were given a couple of minutes to work on each subject,they were asked did they feel any different & had their pain or discomfort eased.Of course 1 said yes & 2 said no & the visiting skeptic announced to everyone that "Statistically this proves that there is no correlation & the odds of actually being healed is blah,blah,blah"  Afterwards the healers were ridiculed & their previous interviews were replayed in a condescending manner.

As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?

The same people who have shares in these massive science based companies also have major share ownership of the media & ultimately nearly everything you see or read.Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?

Good journeys

Mobius

>>Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?<<

Well, I for one have spent hours upon hours trying to test its validity for myself with 0 results, so by that I would have to say it is not valid. However, i do believe it is a real phenomenon, that's why for confirmation I would like to see some controlled, consistent successful tests by a scientist who has access to a successful OBEer since I do not.

>>As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?<<

Well, I think the burden of proof here is on the OBEers. I mean I could say i think Saturn is made of cheese but it's up to me to offer proof, not the scientists to prove that it ISNT.

cya

Atlas

Greetings Atlas!

It is not encumbent on OBE capable people to prove anything at all to anyone - because they are not disputing anything, and they know OBE is a fact, not speculation. It is science that is skeptical, because OBE is, for the most part, outside of their sphere of understanding, which for the most part is within the physical universe. Accordingly, the burden of proof that OBE and other dimensions of reality does not really exist is with them, if that is what they prefer to believe.

That is not to say that these facts should not be made readily available to all those who seek the truth - indeed - that is the main mission of The Astral Pulse. But at the final analysis - those that genuinely seek the truth will find the truth, regardless of what the scientists and skeptics have to say.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Amir,

Oh funny,

Intriguing at the same time.
I must say, one million, sounds like poor wage
.
The real time zone thought is a good start,  seems to me like possibily a way to prove it.
Im not so sure about the other planes though.

Few more million maybe?

Go Robert, you can do it.  I will pray for you.

Paola (alfa_33au_

Science is in a dicotomy, like all things.
It has to be open to expect new information, but at the same time the rules of the box apply.
Could it be that science is always one or two steps behind , like evolution has shown time and time again?
like surely reality comes first then science.
And then there is channelling.  I have read channeled information for years and have sprung and grown like a flower.  In this world a rare thing.

Aint it sweet to be alive right now and conscious of it.  lol

Paola (alfa_33au)

Ok. I agree and disagree on various stuff here. From what I've read about Robert in his postings, this is my conclusions (and if some or many points are wrong, please feel free to correct me).

1. Everybody needs money. To say money is not important is a lie. However, to say that money in itself is a goal that is useless to strive for, is IMO more accurate. As I have understood it, Robert needs money to build better facilities and to build his reserach center, and I think 1M dollars would make those plans much easier.

Therefore - the argument that money is not important is not a valid argument as to why one should not accept the challange

2. If I remember correctly, Robert also said that he is planning on prooving the OBE phenomenon when he starts his research center.

Therefore - the argument that spiritual people doesn't want to prove psychic phenomenon is not a valid argument as to why one should not accept the challenge

Now, the better arguments IMO are:

3. One doesn't want to give up ones private life and live in the focus of the media.

4. Randis way of prooving psychic phenomenon can be questioined hard, and he might discredit the person or arrange so the experiments fail.


In closing: I would love to see RB or anyone else prove OBE. But since RB says that he will start a research center in the future, I guess we just have to wait. And that seems to me be a much better way than going to America and  the amazing Randi. :)

Regards,
Daniel

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atlas:
>>Why do people need a scientist to say it's true?why don't people put some time & effort into it's validity for themselves?<<

Well, I for one have spent hours upon hours trying to test its validity for myself with 0 results, so by that I would have to say it is not valid. However, i do believe it is a real phenomenon, that's why for confirmation I would like to see some controlled, consistent successful tests by a scientist who has access to a successful OBEer since I do not.

>>As far as I know the scientists still havn't taken up the offer to prove that it DOESNT happen (OBE,s) a $1 million reward as well,why don't they enter into the debate on a level playing field?<<

Well, I think the burden of proof here is on the OBEers. I mean I could say i think Saturn is made of cheese but it's up to me to offer proof, not the scientists to prove that it ISNT.

cya

Atlas

---

You could well say that Saturn is made of cheese. But on the subject of "Saturn" there is evidence that obe research told of various factual aspects of this planet *before* the NASA space probe.

It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend.

Yours,
Frank

G,day all

Lost spawn,not sure if you have read through all the posts on this subject,but we have allready stated your No.3 & No.4 questions & is the crux of what we are arguing here.The idea of the institute by RB & proving OBE's on his own terms is exactly what the skeptics DON'T want.

The skeptics,science & religous organisations (that don't allready incorporate this concept of non-physical bodies) are quite aware of the drop in numbers of people joining up,the money draining away from where they want it to be & into books like Astral Dynamics or TMI. In a way it benefits people dealing in metaphysics to be as abstract as a religion,that way they can't rush in with the spooks & claim where's the proof? As most religions operating today are based on theory & practical proof cannot be demonstrated.In respect to Christianity,Buddhism,Mohhamed,Allah,.....where's the proof? I don't see any Gods,look I'll even afford you perfect lab conditions or whatever you require to prove you have some connection with God,Jesus,Buddha,Allah or Vishnu.
If you don't guess the number I have in the box,not only don,t you not win $1 Million,but it will PROVE you don't have a connection with these deities & your religion or beliefs is a lie.

Check out this link & more importantly the bit near the bottom where it talks about physicists working on atoms & particles found that their own thoughts or focus affected the experiment.

http://www.davedavies.com/splanet/realms.htm

Good journey's

Mobius

Whatever religion you are from...it is all love anyway. Regardless any level starting 24 to 26 (the religious belief system territories as defined and mapped by TMI) It is a all love.

As for vatican...well in their huge library with all kinds of miracles they already know how to and all that.

What religion you are from depends entirely on you noone else.

Regards,

Manfred

Manfred
http://www.astraltravellers.com/

Hi Manfred

Yes that is the message that most religions convey,one of love,that is what they would like people to perceive.So many are the epitome of a good person,but the few who have financial control manipulate the information.Why not just be good outright? & do the right thing, always,when other people are involved,that comes naturally to us all & children are born with it & it is only when they are taught,these things that it becomes part of their nature.I bet you could walk into any kindergarten in the world & gather a classroom of kids to come up with a set of ten commandments we all should live by & they would probably tell us that 1) you shouldn't kill people or kill anything you don't need to. 2) you should probably treat other people the way you would like them to treat you & many other things that are just intrinsic to us anyway.

I don't discourage anyone from being in any religion or condemn them for doing so,we all have our own opinions, beliefs & relative freedom of choice,the only thing I suggest is thoroughly read their religious texts,find out about their references they have used in their texts,cross check them,practice it if need be, don't just accept it on face value.

Here is another link with some excellent articles on OBE's, Robert Bruce is in there as well.Also check out the library on this site,very cool & check out their link page,absolutely massive & very comprehensive.

http://www.newage.com.au

http://www.newage.com.au/library.pages/oobe.html

http://www.newage.com.au/library.html

Good journeys all

Mobius

>>It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend. <<

Frank, no offense meant here mate but I find your claim at being a scientist questionable if you mention "faith". Faith in something requires that it not be provable or have evidence otherwise you "know" it and it is no longer a matter of faith. Science is about facts, reason, rationality, evidence. NOT faith. Faith is the realm of religion and mysticism, not science.

Experiments performed by you on yourself can't just be accepted you know. There's no way to avoid bias in that circumstance. Here's an experiment. I will give you my address, We can use TerraServer so that you know how to get here, and I will paste a 5 digit number on my front door. Go into the real time zone and come read it. Now THERE is an experiment!

And like i've said, my FAITH , for better or worse, is STRONG! BECAUSE, despite my 0 success rate, despite my issues with this in terms of logic and rationality, I STILL believe this a true phenomenon. That's pretty much faith, since everything rational is telling me this is a load of malarkey. :)

Thanks for the post. Cya

Atlas

>>It is not encumbent on OBE capable people to prove anything at all to anyone - because they are not disputing anything, and they know OBE is a fact, not speculation. It is science that is skeptical, because OBE is, for the most part, outside of their sphere of understanding, which for the most part is within the physical universe. Accordingly, the burden of proof that OBE and other dimensions of reality does not really exist is with them, if that is what they prefer to believe.<<

I am not saying OBEers have a duty to prove anything. HOWEVER, i do believe that if the burden of proof rests on anyone, it is on the OBEers, not the scientists to DISPROVE it. It's not that they are disputing anything, but they are putting something ENTIRELY new on the scientifiic table. They are claiming there is a second "energy" body that dislogdes during an obe and travels around. The burden of proof is on them, otherwise, scientists would be busy 24/7 trying to disprove claims about time travel, ufo's, dragons, moon bases, unicorns, and leprechauns. If someone can obtain FACTUAL data about the physcal dimension through the obe experience (through real time zone exploriation), s/he should have no qualms about proving it under scientific conditions. I know I would.

Thanks for the post,

Atlas

Well I cant say that i can personaly see it being proven in the near future. It's appears simalar to the ufo problem. Lets imagine there are et's out there, they land(visit) here,there advanced(true beings if you like).  
           Would a government go public, what would the government tell the populas. They (government) could say, hey wev'e been talking to some et's, there more adanced than us, they have no material wanting's,no greed,lust,envy,anger ect ect, to get to the level that there at we have to try and give up our materelistic wantings(attachments) ect.
           I would assume that most individuals reading this post could understand the above due to the fact that you have in one way or another been drawn to this site, but the problem would be that the genaral populas would not.
            I peronally think that there is some sort of spirtual law in place,I know people who have used psi capabilities for the wrong reasons,only to have those capabilities reduce or stop alltogether.

Anyhow ,just my thought's.


Regards  Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Atlas:
>>It's also rather comical to me, being a scientist, and who recounts to this BBS my controlled, consistent attempts at performing various obe states that you would ask for further "proof".

Faith is sadly lacking in you, my friend. <<

Frank, no offense meant here mate but I find your claim at being a scientist questionable if you mention "faith". Faith in something requires that it not be provable or have evidence otherwise you "know" it and it is no longer a matter of faith. Science is about facts, reason, rationality, evidence. NOT faith. Faith is the realm of religion and mysticism, not science.

Experiments performed by you on yourself can't just be accepted you know. There's no way to avoid bias in that circumstance. Here's an experiment. I will give you my address, We can use TerraServer so that you know how to get here, and I will paste a 5 digit number on my front door. Go into the real time zone and come read it. Now THERE is an experiment!

And like i've said, my FAITH , for better or worse, is STRONG! BECAUSE, despite my 0 success rate, despite my issues with this in terms of logic and rationality, I STILL believe this a true phenomenon. That's pretty much faith, since everything rational is telling me this is a load of malarkey. :)

Thanks for the post. Cya

Atlas

---

No offence taken. I much prefer communicating with people who have the courage to speak their mind.

My Collins dictionary gives the primary meaning of the word Faith as: A strong or unshakeable belief in something. Which is how I meant the word to be used.

Yes, I do readily admit the same word can have religious connotations. Llike, a belief in something unproven such as the existence of some kind of God: which appears to be the context in which you assume I have used it. But my use of the word was solely as given above.

There is nothing wrong with experimenting on oneself. Provided any inherrent biases are ironed out of whatever conclusion(s) I happen to make, I see no harm in it.

As for popping over to your house, I've said before that travelling to a *specific* place in the RT zone is a tricky thing to do. It's something I currently find impossible. That's precisely why I have been working on slowing down my normal projection process in order to try and make it more controllable.

It was only fairly recently that I managed to project into the RT zone. That was after literally hundreds of projections into the Astral. I thought it was weird, at first, but I got a lot of comfort from the fact that in AD Mr Bruce tells of how his experiences had been primarily in the RT zone. Which was virtually the exact opposite of what I experienced. So I thought, well, that's not quite so freaky after all.    

You never know, sometime soon I might take you up on your offer.  :)

Yours,
Frank

 

quote:

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Why not just be good outright?

---

By Mobius


Mobius that is a part of you...a part that only wants to do good. It is never noble of you though :)

Regards,

Manfred

Manfred
http://www.astraltravellers.com/

>>You never know, sometime soon I might take you up on your offer. :)<<

hey man, if you are ever ready, just let me know.
That goes for anyone else too. No reward money here though hehe

Atlas

>>If you don't guess the number I have in the box,not only don,t you not win $1 Million,but it will PROVE you don't have a connection with these deities & your religion or beliefs is a lie.<<

I'm not sure this is the same thing as asking an OBEer to read a number in a box. If you did it through a religious deity, the success of the experiment relies on the deity, not the person communicating with the deity, whose claim it is you are trying to prove. So I may be talking to jesus every day, but he may not want to read your number.

With an OBEer, the success of the experiment depends purely on him and his intentions(granting that the person doing the experiment with him is objective and upright and following the correct scientific protocols), not some intermediary.

>>Check out this link & more importantly the bit near the bottom where it talks about physicists working on atoms & particles found that their own thoughts or focus affected the experiment.<<

This is very true especially in the world of quantum physics. No small number of scientists are pretty freaked out by what they are finding here. What they are finding seems to be that consciousness has a direct effect on physical reality. A quantum particle can be 0 AND 1 at the same time, take path A AND path B simultaneously, until a conscious observation forces that particle to decide which path it actually took. It's called quantum decoherence when the particle "makes a decision".  It's very strange and fascinating if you ask me. It seems that all of reality is constantly being rendered by conscious observation.

Atlas

...... And, hopefully, some time soon, they will conclude that what we Physical beings call "thought" is a primary energy. :)

Yours,
Frank

G,day Atlas

Sure the quote of mine you picked out is a generalisation & oversimplified,but you yourself said"I may be talking to Jesus everyday,but he may not want to read your number".That's a convenient excuse they can use as a crutch isn't it? You talk to Jesus everday,really? what does he say?why wont he tell me the number? can't he do it? or is he being a snob? when you talk to him,does he answer you back?What's his birthday?.

This wouldn't work so well for the OBE,er,could you imagine "Oh,sorry I couldn't  tap into the Astral today,but that doesn't mean I can't do it"
"Ahaaa!" says the science skeptic hosting the show",hocus pocus folks,all talk & no proof" as the crowd forcibly laughs to feel part of the scene & not to stand out as a loony if they speak up.

This stuff on quantum physics IS really interesting isn't it? I think it's just a pity that not enough scientists read up on the metaphysical sides of things & utilise some of their possibilties.So many scientists are trapped in their own belief systems & are almost the reciprocal of religion & the dedicated theologian.Never ever considering another point of view or concept,because their beliefs have told them that there is no point,as whatever they are involved in is the only possibility.I would have loved to have a video camera back in the days when the majority of scientists said that the sun orbited the earth & not the other way around & the look on the faces of the scientists who said the earth was flat & you would sail off the end & die.What would have been going through their minds when their belief bubble was burst.So many scientists ARE really blown away by the thought that thought affects things,but why should they be?go with the flow I say,don't resist,just accept it & work with it's possibilities.

I hope to be among a different breed of scientist myself as I have allready had OBE's for many years & have been involved with metaphsical concepts for years now.I,ve really only just begun but I,m at uni  studying science & have plenty of years up my sleeve,so we'll see what the future holds.

Atlas the day you have OBE's you are going to have an avalanche of memories that will creep back to remind you of where you've been.You say you have been trying that long Atlas? I,m curious & want to help,do you have a journal? I gather you have SOME OBE books,Bruces & Monroes? have you tried any hemi-sync stuff? or sound & light machines?If you are this determined Atlas,you will get there I feel.

Good journeys all

Mobius

History is replete with examples of where Physical science got it wrong.

I started out in the electronics field. When I was learning we had what was called "conventional current flow" and "true current flow".

We were told that the early scientists originally worked out that current flowed from positive to negative. You had a positive charge that dissipated into a the negative. I suppose they thought of it in much the same way as a full bucket of water would dissipate when poured onto a patch of earth. So they developed all these formulas, and so forth, that "proved" their findings.

However, years later, some bright spark started claiming they got it all wrong. Saying that current didn't flow from positive to negative at all. In fact, it was the other way around. There naturally followed a period of dismissal. However, one by one, scientists had to eventually accept they got it wrong and all the formulas were rewritten.

It's the same way I feel today when talking about "thought" being a primary energy. Of course, I'm not the only one. But we are a very tiny minority. All that scientists are beginning to discover is there are finer and finer states of matter; and that the Atom is not the be-all and end-all they once thought it was.

Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

Understand that the Astral is not some separate place that you travel too. The Astral realms are composed of progressively finer and finer states of matter that are interwoven within what we call Physical matter that is composed of Atoms.

It makes sense that, as scientists develop the technology to magnify atoms more reliably, and to an ever greater extent, they will start to begin to reach the stage where their instruments will have the capacity to detect the finer Astral matter that is interwoven within the Atoms themselves.  

They are surprised at the way this finer state of matter seems to react to their thoughts. Well, of course it will. Because such is the nature of Astral matter. On the Astral, with a little practice, you can actually manifest any object at will. Thus create a form of that object (or creature) from Astral matter merely by thinking about it in a particular way.

Yours,
Frank

those of us who have been out of the physical body know for certain that we exist as beings which can consciously function outwith the physical frame....but we have to be scrupulously honest and state that we cannot doit at will..in the real time zone...there are billions of folks in this world who might just appreciate having scientific proof that we are "spiritual" beings and can reject the materialistic paradigm....thats as good a reason as any for those of us who OBE to prove it...and the experiment is easy enough to set up..Ive tried it for two years in the past and failed...but Im not going to do the "susan blackmore" thing and reject it cause it cant be proved right now..she for example has a sense of "releif" that the materilaitic paradigm is correct..ie its all the physical brains doing and is basically a very "real" hallucination..she is definitly wrong in this but she is not wrong in claiming the burden of proof is on us who say we have experienced OBE's to prove it or at least be prepared to attempt to prove it..the objections to doing this or at least be prepared to do this are increasingly hollow sounding and dreserve to be treated with "philosophical contempt"..in my view..
michaela

There are those people "out there" who have to grow-up and realise that what we early explorers are involved with here is a new and emerging science.

10 years ago I dared not talk about my "experiences" through threat of ridicule. Now, I can converse with people over the Internet in a civilised way. Which comes as something of a relief, to be honest, because the thought that I might be "insane" crossed my mind many times in the early years.

Those who totally dismiss the idea of the Astral are very sad people, in my opinion. Perhaps they are just "materialists" so limited in their thinking that they can only relate to anything in terms of money.

But they are a transient breed.

Just like those who believed the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth: no-one can convince these people any different. So why should I (for one) waste my valuable time trying? They will just die off naturally in any event.

But don't get me wrong: I would love to take this guy's million dollars and burn the whole lot in front of him.

However, that would just leave me standing in some kind of emotive revenge-scenario that, knowing about how to visit the Astral, and after having had hundreds of Astral experiences, teaches you plainly and clearly to avoid at all costs.

Fact is, you come across these kinds of people, in various inhabited regions of the Astral, all the time: people who continue to act out all their various earth-bound "habits". Only thing is, they don't actually realise that they are Physically dead.

Some of them just look at you with a confused stare. Others blank you completely because they are so totally engaged in some monotonous routine; that you know they will be continuing for maybe a thousand or so years of "earth time".

This Randy the Amazing bloke will, eventually, die and (most likely) continue the very same thing in the Astral worlds. He will attract a "crowd" and issue the very same "challenges". However, in a Physical sense, he will be dead... yet won't realise it.

Please understand there are vast areas of the Astral, packed full of such people.

Yours,
Frank  
 

>>thats as good a reason as any for those of us who OBE to prove it<<

Yes it is. In my opinion, pick a reason, as there are many reasons to prove OBE.

>>Ive tried it for two years in the past and failed...but Im not going to do the "susan blackmore" thing and reject it cause it cant be proved right now<<

I really like your post Michael but this brings up another point. You've tried for two years and failed to prove OBE (I respect your honesty). Couldn't it be *POSSIBLE* that what you think is going on is NOT going on? I know how real it seems...but my dreams seem completely and totally real too, when I'm in them. I guess what I am thinking is that it isnt possible to prove that an OBE is NOT a lucid dream experience, UNLESS you can get information you previously did not know about the real world through the OBE, that (in my opinion) would have to be its defining characteristic. And that's all I'm asking for as proof really. Come read my number! :)

>>but she is not wrong in claiming the burden of proof is on us who say we have experienced OBE's to prove it or at least be prepared to attempt to prove it..the objections to doing this or at least be prepared to do this are increasingly hollow sounding <<

I agree.

Atlas

>>There are those people "out there" who have to grow-up and realise that what we early explorers are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

I agree that that may be true Frank, but it doesn't make this "new" science exempt from things like proof and logic and reason.

>>Just like those who believed the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth: no-one can convince these people any different. So why should I (for one) waste my valuable time trying?<<

Well, when people refused to believe the world was round and that the earth revolved around the sun, the scientific method was still relatively new and not understood by people. At this stage, a lot of people are familiar with and respect the scientific process, so comparing todays world with Galileo's isn't quite accurate. More people respect what science is trying to tell them today than they did then.

I also think that you are assuming that "people who don't believe in OBEs never will and are just stubborn skeptics who will never change no matter what I do". I don't think that's true. Yes there are people like that, but I don't think it's the majority. Me for instance. All I want is a little proof.

I am torn between the sincerity of people like yourself and Robert Bruce, and the obvious lack of proof combined with completely inconsistent stories and accounts in this field.

You know, here's something, I will give ANYONE here FIFTY chances, over as spread out a period as s/he wants, to come read a 5 or 6 digit number on my front door. If someone gets it right just ONE time, I will accept that as proof, since even with 50 chances it's close to impossible to guess a 6 digit number.
You wanna bet how many takers I'll have? My bet is ZERO :)

Atlas

Interesting discussion
Frank - something you said really caught my eye:

quote:

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Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

---

Could you describe precisely what you have seen?? I would love to hear more about this. I remember I asked a projector once who had done this and she said it was like small universes with no end to how tiny you could get. But I wonder how you would "see" an electron since it is "travelling" so immensely fast.

Everyone here has offered excellent arguments against that fraud the "amazing" Randi.  But there's one simple argument that even atheists would have to agree to:  the whole idea of nobody ever collecting a million dollar challenge "proving" a psychic phenomenon is "proof"  that such phenomina don't exist, is laughably absurd.  This is especially true with a guy who's entire career is dependent on proving such phonomena false! Oh yeah, I can certainly imagine this guy just waiting to sign a check for a million dollars!

Dear Inguma, and others,

Do not forget that time-space is only an illusion. It makes the learning system successful, and faster. By the way, I think that the person who can have obe at will does not need any proof. OBE is not for the physical world.
Even if you would project for the x billion-trillion money, when you start having them, you will be not interested in any way in the money. Just try it out!

Take care, Pe-

quote:

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Originally posted by Inguma:
Interesting discussion
Frank - something you said really caught my eye:

quote:

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Now, I don't need a 10 billion dollar research facility to find this out, because I can project within these finer states and discover them for free. Just as we have the Physical world composed of Atoms, we have the realms made of a much finer matter than Atoms we call the Astral. As I say, scientists are only now beginning to discover the existence of these finer particles of matter.

---

Could you describe precisely what you have seen?? I would love to hear more about this. I remember I asked a projector once who had done this and she said it was like small universes with no end to how tiny you could get. But I wonder how you would "see" an electron since it is "travelling" so immensely fast.

---

I'm not exactly sure if I am seeing electrons or atoms or whatever particles, but I've come across various "energy areas" on the Astral that contain all kinds of energy-particles. It's something I've yet to work out.

You see them quite easily by matching their speed and direction. Imagine if you were standing by the roadside and a car came past you at 500 mph. You just see a fleeting blur. If it made several passes at ever increasing speed there would come a point where you wouldn't see it at all. But if you were alongside the car, matching its speed and direction, no matter how fast it was travelling, relative to the ground, the car would appear stationary to yourself.

I've travelled along and within huge light-beams and I've seen what look like individual photons that make up the beam as a whole. They appear as a suspended ball of energy, each giving off a certain degree of light and each spaced about 30cm, or so, apart. Thus forming a huge 3D grid. Some get thrown off and form a whirling kind of light cloud. When you look at these particles some are different shapes and can be multi-coloured.

As you travel through them you can feel an electrical charge that gives a tickling sensation. As I say, I'm not exactly sure what these are. If I fly out of them and view the whole thing from a few thousand miles away it looks like a huge beam of light.

Yours,
Frank

Hi guys

I think Pe makes a good point about materialism.Most of the human inhabitants of this planet have to become part of the monetary system in one way or another & we seem to be reaching a saturation point very soon.Noticed the rediculously high wages of company CEO's in proportion to the average wage earner?Insurance pay outs in the millions for petty things,banks that have billion to trillion dollar turn overs everyyear?Third world countries that have the same bank balances as a single person walking the streets in a first world country.Because they are dumb? no,because of their religion or colour or race? no, because the ones who have the money,the stuff that virtually ensures success,don't want to change that,they want the money to stay in power utilities,defence utilities, & manipulate where the attention of the majority of the planet will be focused on,while they eat your pants off your arse/butt & don't even turn in their sleep at night in worry.Most people know that money will help a great deal in an individuals success & that of their offspring.Natural intelligence is another,but hard in a third world country to succeed.The other advantage a parent can give a child is to teach them from birth,everything,music, speaking,reading,languages.

The ethical issues behind genetically altering your child to have a high IQ are way behind the scientific realities that are taking place right now,money is a big issue here for all,will only the exceedingly rich be able to have babies with no genetic defects & high IQ? while the poor debate the ethics & morals,a generation later we will be living in the movie GATTACA.The US government has allready declassified the RV program files & admitted there is something to this idea that every individual has some psychic ability & can be taught.Thus the flood of people into the new age & metaphysical market,the next generation will have psychic abilities as a pre-requisite on job applications.Like Frank said,10 to 15 years ago you just couldn't talk about this stuff,now there are people coming out of the wood work.

The basic dilemma we are faced with here is MONEY,while it exists,there will always be trouble & manipulation.I guess the rebuttal from the top 10 richest on our planet would be ;sure you can't take any possessions with you when you die,but you can make sure your children will be exceedingly wealthy too,at the expense of millions.We all know intrinsically that money is wrong,it stifles life.

Atlas you didn't get back to me on what OBE books,techniques or meditations you have tried in your attempts to have OBE's & whether you have a journal & hemi sync? I have taught people guitar & karate in the past & the majority buy a guitar or learn a technique or two & then say "why can't I play as good as you?" "Iv'e bought a guitar or uniform why can't I kick arse/butt?" when no effort whatsoever has been put into actually practicing it & not talking about it.Please tell me Atlas as it would be a shame to hear you have no books,no journal,don't meditate,stretch,try NEW, or some other technique? or you work for the government in your spare time.

Good journeys matee's

Mobius

Atlas..I agree with your points as well..especiallythe bit where you state that there could be another explanation for lucid dreams and OBE's...I mentioned susan blackmore..as you know she started off the complete believer after smoking hash and having a stunning obe...the only one shes had...but she grew to reject it as "really" being out of the body since she saw roof tuiles which were differnet coloured than they really were...fair enough..Ive had a few real time projections where i saw absolutely no distortion in perception of the material world...only differnece i noted was a slight hazy outline....I konw for sure i really was out of my physical body which i saw...on the other hand ive projected many times into the "astral world"..where there were all sorts of amazing perceptions..totally conscious in myself...andparadoxically the reason i can convince myself if nobody else..is that..like sylvan muldoon I have no particular desire for "eternal life"..as he says "life is a curse"..he wished death was eternal oblivion...thing is I know there are spiritual beings..Ive seen them under obe and other clairvoyant situations..amazing stuff....and as the saying goes the universe and the world and its auntie can tell me or try to convince me that I was hallucinating and i could not in all sincerity accept that point of view..ultimately the astral body or whatver one likes to call it is "unreal" but at my stage of development the experience was totally real and fully conscious....i hate to accept the fact but it is possible that OBE's are somehow monitored by the "spiritual world" etc..I do not like to think that my excursions when they happen on average once every 5 weeks or so are somehow done under the auspicies of the spiritual world or guides but on my reading ( eg Steiner in his "Theosophy") I think that is a possible scnario and also why for its own reason the spiritual world may not want this to be proven..I hate to acknowledge that pissibility since it sounds so pat..convenient and a cop out..but it might just be a possible reason neverthless..but this does not stop me trying to develop my obe abilitiies..sheer laziness is the only reason i can offer as to why in two years attempts with the Institute of Psycophysical research in oxford in the 1960's is why it didnt happen....develping the chakras and raising consciousness is my personal imperative which i have not succeeded with very much at all...but i do belive that in some sort of evolutionary sense maybe in the next 100 yeasr more folk may indeed be able to prove it using a simple random target system...

Hey

I,ve heard many explanations on why we sleep,dream & have OBE's,including one a few days ago that said "Once we fall asleep,every 90 mins an electrical discharge is sent through the brain,these electrical impulses are basically messages from all around our body,sending in their gathered details & recordings of the day,these are displayed visually in our brains in the form of dreams,which are displayed in a metaphorical sense."

Then there is Freuds theories that it is all to do with sex,that one I find hard to swallow.Lucid dreams & OBE's are different I believe,sure you can have a dream where you can see your body,but what about hearing things people say in another room,or seeing what they are doing,numerous NDE cases in hospitals have reported seeing & hearing what the doctors were talking about.Clairvoyance? Clairaudience? OBE? whats the answer?

Some very talented remote viewers like Joe McMoneagle,not only went to TMI regularly,but married a monroe.He often stated in interviews that sometimes he left his body for retrievals of info & psychic ability was a definate advantage.Every single one of them despite all their success CANNOT see numbers very well,sure shapes & scenery,but numbers were deemed by all an extremely hard target,2 or 3 numbers yes but 5 or 6 no.I suspect most skeptics have read this also & rely on that one sticking point for proof.The thing is who cares what they think,you guys obviously think there is something to it otherwise you wouldn't be in here.Why not today decide that the whole thing is a lie & a hoax (OBE's) & never concede the idea again in your life.Get on with things in the physical & even though you believe that microwaves cook your food,have you seen them exactly? they mustn't exist if you can't see them,you can't see the energy's inside our bodies either,so that can't be a possibilty.

The reason you don't abandon it,is because you KNOW there is something to it.As ancient an art it is,it's still only just come onto the public market 5 to 10 years ago.So you can forget about it for now & then watch as others pass you by,simply becaused they tried.

Good journeys guys

Mobius

>>I think Pe makes a good point about materialism.Most of the human inhabitants of this planet have to become part of the monetary system in one way or another & we seem to be reaching a saturation point very soon.Noticed the rediculously high wages of company CEO's in proportion to the average wage earner?Insurance pay outs in the millions for petty things,banks that have billion to trillion dollar turn overs everyyear?Third world countries that have the same bank balances as a single person walking the streets in a first world country.Because they are dumb? no,because of their religion or colour or race? no, because the ones who have the money,the stuff that virtually ensures success,don't want to change that,they want the money to stay in power utilities,defence utilities, & manipulate where the attention of the majority of the planet will be focused on,while they eat your pants off your arse/butt & don't even turn in their sleep at night in worry.Most people know that money will help a great deal in an individuals success & that of their offspring.Natural intelligence is another,but hard in a third world country to succeed.The other advantage a parent can give a child is to teach them from birth,everything,music, speaking,reading,languages.


The basic dilemma we are faced with here is MONEY,while it exists,there will always be trouble & manipulation.I guess the rebuttal from the top 10 richest on our planet would be ;sure you can't take any possessions with you when you die,but you can make sure your children will be exceedingly wealthy too,at the expense of millions.We all know intrinsically that money is wrong,it stifles life.
<<

Hmmm...these sound like arguments I've heard before....by a guy named Karl Marx. And we already tried getting rid of the ultimate "evil" capital...that was called communism and millions of people were tortured terrorized and killed in that wonderful system.
I love money. In a free society, it is the symbol of exchange and ideas between people, with an absence of physical force. The reason a CEO makes a "ridiculously" more amount of money compared to the average worker is that he has a "ridiculously" more difficult job. The reason third world countries are so poor is because they do not have a system that honors individual rights, property rights, or encourages business and entrepreneurship. They are usually ran by warlords and dictators. But we are getting deeper into political philosophy here and I suggest we don't or this thread won't be 4 pages long it will be 40 :)

>>Atlas you didn't get back to me on what OBE books,techniques or meditations you have tried in your attempts to have OBE's & whether you have a journal & hemi sync? I have taught people guitar & karate in the past & the majority buy a guitar or learn a technique or two & then say "why can't I play as good as you?" "Iv'e bought a guitar or uniform why can't I kick arse/butt?" when no effort whatsoever has been put into actually practicing it & not talking about it.Please tell me Atlas as it would be a shame to hear you have no books,no journal,don't meditate,stretch,try NEW, or some other technique? or you work for the government in your spare time.<<

I have probably about 20 books related to teaching psychic skills. I have Monroe's first two books, and Astral Dynamics among them. I've done NEW, I've tried the rope technique. I play instruments also and have a black belt so it's not that I dont know how to work toward things and I understand that skills don't just appear out of thin air. I've had some "questionable" experiences but nothing i would call a success. I've tried hemi-sync. It was fun to listen to, but didnt trigger any OBEs or anything.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

>>Every single one of them despite all their success CANNOT see numbers very well,sure shapes & scenery,but numbers were deemed by all an extremely hard target,2 or 3 numbers yes but 5 or 6 no.I suspect most skeptics have read this also & rely on that one sticking point for proof<<

What if I make them big? numbers are just shapes really. They can't see shapes? even if they are big?

>>Why not today decide that the whole thing is a lie & a hoax (OBE's) & never concede the idea again in your life.Get on with things in the physical & even though you believe that microwaves cook your food,have you seen them exactly? they mustn't exist if you can't see them<<

I disagree...there are many experiments you can do to prove the existence of microwaves. I'm not taking issue with obe's because I can't see them and hear them, its because there is NO EVIDENCE. None. No evidence of them occuring or of any effects. And I don't believe that there is ANYTHING wrong with demanding proof or evidence of something to accept it. Just as I'm not going to believe in time travel, until it is proven and repeatable.

>>The reason you don't abandon it,is because you KNOW there is something to it<<

The reason I don't abandon it is not because I KNOW it is true, since I do not, but because I WANT it to be true, because OBEs sure sound like fun and I'd love to have them.

Atlas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atlas:
I'm not taking issue with obe's because I can't see them and hear them, its because there is NO EVIDENCE. None. No evidence of them occuring or of any effects.

---

That's not really true, in my understanding.

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter16.html

http://www.mach1audio.com/out-of-body/techniques/survey_results.htm

I'd say extreme commonality of experience throughout the ages is a pretty good indicator of reality. And there have been experiments where people have obtained objective information from an obe. The downloadable (non-summary) version of the first link should have some information.

Mark

>>I'd say extreme commonality of experience throughout the ages is a pretty good indicator of reality<<

Ok...the problem is that I see the experiences as being NOT COMMON with each other. If you read Monroe, and then you read Bruce, they are TOTALLY different, except when it comes to the projection reflex itself which is pretty similar. For example,
BRUCE
-melting hands
-astral wind
-akashic records
-astral "skins"

MONROE
-loosh

Bruce makes no mention of "loosh" and Monroe makes no mention of any of Bruce's "hallmark" experiences. Bruce makes it seem that most of those things you can count on experiencing if you are truly OBE. Loosh was pretty much the huge discovery of Monroe's adventures and if I remember correctly, the prime mover of the entire earth experience basically, and yet Bruce never mentions it once. Odd.

Atlas

As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science. As such, we have not yet evolved a common system of labelling. But it will come, given time.

The problem you have when searching for commonality, Atlas, is you have no experience of projection. As such, you views come across to me as being very one sided. When I read RB's and RM's work they have quite a lot in common, both with each other and with my own experiences.

I read Ultimate Journey for the first time the other week. I'm about halfway through and it is mind-blowing the extent to which Monroe's experiences run parallel to my own. However, had I read that book 15 years ago (assuming it had been published then) I'd be struggling to make sense of it all.

That's basically the position you are in right now. Well, I suppose that's the position the majority of people are in when they first try and project.

Yours,
Frank

Ok Atlas

I can see that I am wasting energy on you,as even if you are given examples,you will either misquote them,take them out of context or make up something,just to ignore what is being said.We should not get into political philosophy like you said,but it seems you havn't gone back into any of the previous threads,as you would have found,that I don't believe in communism or any ism,especially capatilism.I wont go down the path of telling you how the stock market works,as I can sense you are a fairly defensive & patriotic sort & will choose to ignore what is going on around you.I have the same opinion of my own governments politicians & the system we are part of here
in Australia.

You love money you say? It is the symbol of exchange & ideas,with the absence of physical force? Where did you get that from,a US government text book? Or inside the set of the truman show part 2? Once again,you choose to be ignorant.

We have also discussed many times in this & other forums here about the various terminologies used in Monroes,Bruce's, & others books & came to the conclusion that they were all talking about much the same thing,but had their own terms which made sense to them like Focus levels,Projectable doubles,the training ground as used by Frank,higher & lower astral realms etc.You have to look past the terminology & take what you can out of them,give the exercises all new names if you have to,but the main thing is to practice the exercises or techniques & not get bogged down by the terminology.

If you ask me Bruce is the first one to just simply say energy or NEW,instead of constant references to loosh,kundalini,prana etc he just says storage centres for energy  & energy paths etc.,how simple,the OBE book with contemporary terms & meanings.Most of it seems to be an elaboration on eastern concepts & picks the best of everything.I wish I knew nothing about OBE's & read that book first,as it would make so much more sense to a novice who has never heard any other terms.

http://www.crystalinks.com/kundalini.html

Atlas you pulled a quote from me & misquoted it,you even put it above your own writing.Like I said "The reason you don't abandon it,is beacause you KNOW there is something to it" not "because you KNOW it's true".I think it is obvious you don't think it's true,which leaves 2 possibilities.
1) Like I said you KNOW there is something to it,maybe you have had some experience with metaphysical concepts personally,but not yet OBE's,so you hope someone will somehow give it to you.
or
2)You are an employee of the amazing randi or some other debunker or science fraternity that has very strict beliefs & agenda's to push.

Good journeys

Mobius

>>I wont go down the path of telling you how the stock market works<<

I am a stock trader by profession so I don't think I require your tutelage.

>>I can sense you are a fairly defensive & patriotic sort & will choose to ignore what is going on around you<<

I ignore nothing. Yes I defend capitalism when it is attacked because it not clearly understood 99% of the time. Capitalism is a system of voluntary exchange to mutual benefit, BARRING physical force. EVERY other system consists of one group of people stealing/extorting from another.It is the system of a free people.

If you look at what I said, I did not call you a communist. What I said is that the idea that capital is responsible for oppression/(choose your evil) around the world is one of the main ideas behind communism

>>2)You are an employee of the amazing randi or some other debunker or science fraternity that has very strict beliefs & agenda's to push.<<

Haha...the truth comes out now doesn't it? :) One person desiring proof and reason...that's all, and that must make me a debunker, member of a science fraternity with an agenda to push. My beliefs are NOT strict. I will believe anything if it can be proved. I will believe there are ancient ruins on the moon if you can just show me some evidence. That's all.
But ...apparently this field is "above" proof. I knew I would be attacked sooner or later.

By the way I did not misquote you. Anything you say is in >><<. what's below it is MY response.

I looked back at my last few posts and I dont  know what it was I said that made you so angry and decide to start accusing me, but whatever It was I apologize. I can see this is starting to get under your skin, so I'll give you the last word and we'll call this thread closed.

Thanks for the post.

Atlas

>>As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

You have said that and I totally agree that it might be, but as I've said and I think you'll agree, this new science is not above the scientific method. You have said that it may be proved in the future and that might be the case also, but as it stands right now, I see no reason to believe, based on EVIDENCE here, that the OBE is not a vivid lucid dream. I totally understand your position, and I think you understand mine. Only you know that you are having an OBE, and that it is NOT a dream. There's no way to prove it to anyone except in the ways we've stated.

Thanks for the post

Atlas

Wow,you are a stock trader by proffesion Atlas,but somehow you don't see how it can be manipulated by the guys at the top.Just because they don't get their hands dirty doesn't mean they are somehow respectable civilised people.Not sure if you were watching the stocks around the time of sept 11,but surely you must remember that huge amounts of stocks were sold in the airline companies before they crashed,hmmm.Then there was billion dollar trades in options in Lockheed Martin & other US military stocks,all before sept 11.

At the time of the gulf war,exactly the same thing & guess who got the contracts to clean up the mess afterwards & rebuild? companies owned by the same ones who have the majority of shares in the defence stocks.
Nice little money maker that one eh? I trade myself once a week or so & I'm not a stock broker,but I do check all the way back into who the companies majority shareholders & what other interests they have,surely you can't just ignore the majority US push for total control of oil around the world & drugs too.

Every time you post you display your ignorance,I just cannot believe what I am reading,you seem to be fairly well educated Atlas & write well,but I get the feeling you just dismiss anything said about America & think that somehow I feel you are personally resposible for it all.We will get nowhere if you wont look at reality,choosing "ignorance is bliss" because you are in America.I know you wont bother to check back on my feelings for America so I will summarize here, I love America & have many friends over there.You are just being patriotic & will twist anything I say to make it sound like an attack on America & you.

I just can't believe that statement,"Every other system consists of one group stealing or extorting from each other" Now I know what I am dealing with here,you don't think that happens in America or any other Capatilist country?Ok,I will not burst your bubble.

Heres some more food for thought for skeptics.

http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter26.html

http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/index.html

Good journeys

Mobius

Hi Atlas..just in passing i would note that the fact that I am an admirer of ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro , Che Guevera and think Joe SDtalin had a lot of good points doesnt make me a communist or materialist nor necessarily and admirer of the UK and USA foreign policies in the middle east etc...the main point in which i totally agree with you is that my political predilictions have no bearing on my ability to OBE....and I totally  respect and indeed admire your empirical attitude..ie you havent experienced the OBE but are ttoally open minded as to its factual possibility..in my case if i hadnt expereinced it i would tend to accept the susan blackmore/sceptical point of view more readily.But having had my own empirical proof I am only keen now as indicated earlier to develop my skills in order to attempt..again,..to achieve public proof...please keep attempting it..itmay very well happen..can I point you to an excellent site IIPC ..if you dont already know it.....great courses etc in obe training...

You crazy kids and your politics.
LoL why is this thread still active

*/me Beats the dead deer with a bat*


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/You must try some of my purple berries.
I've been eating them for 6 or 7 weeks now, haven't got sick once.
Prolly keep us both alive.
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Atlas:
>>As I have said before a number of times, what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.<<

You have said that and I totally agree that it might be, but as I've said and I think you'll agree, this new science is not above the scientific method. You have said that it may be proved in the future and that might be the case also, but as it stands right now, I see no reason to believe, based on EVIDENCE here, that the OBE is not a vivid lucid dream. I totally understand your position, and I think you understand mine. Only you know that you are having an OBE, and that it is NOT a dream. There's no way to prove it to anyone except in the ways we've stated.

Thanks for the post

Atlas

---

Yes, I understand where you are coming from.  

Also, as you pointed out likewise, with Mobius, if I may say with respect that I am a scientist and there is no "might be" about it. As such, it couldn't possibly be "above the scientific method". But look around you and see how that is beginning to happen.  

At last, as far as I am concerned, this whole "thing" is being taken out of the hands of the mystics and steadily being observed and experienced by those who have a more scientific-based sense of reasoning. Robert Monroe was the forerunner of this.

Myself, I have inadvertently been "following in his footsteps" without realising it. I have only recently read Far and Ultimate Journey(s) and, while Monroe has gone much deeper into the Astral than I have thus far, I am gobsmacked at how our Astral experiences have so much in common. But, then again, he observes from basically the same viewpoint as myself.

I've said before that negotiating the real-time zone is very tricky for me. I only recently learned how to project into it after having had hundreds of previous Astral experiences. But, as an on-going experiment, I'm prepared to make it my goal to try and visit your home, or some big landmark or other (that you are familiar with in your vicinity) and I will try and project to that place and tell you something about it that I couldn't have known normally.

Okay, it's not "proof" in the scientific sense of the word, i.e. a conclusion that has been derived from repeatedly successful double-blind testing. But it will be a start. Plus, it will give me a more definite goal to work towards.

You never know, it might work. Then, perhaps we can move on and perform some more advanced tests: like reading figures pinned on your front door, or something. I'm not sure whether I can do it, and I am unsure as to how long it will take. But I am willing to give it a go.

Let me know what you think.

Yours,
Frank  

Excellent, we have a do-er!

Frank would it help, do you think, if to try this you and Mobius or whoever could agree on a time and date (maybe a regular slot), and at that time Mobius could send out a strong telepathic signal to you? Would this help you find the place?
Just a thought....

and please guys - chill out!

"My [tax cut] plan is realistic because it avoids meaningless 15-year projections."
"It's important for us to explain to our nation that life is important. It's not only life of babies, but it's life of children living in, you know, the dark dungeons of the Internet."
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully"
"I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to answer questions. I can't answer your question"
"It's going to require numerous IRA agents."
--On Gore's tax plan,

I mean come on! When you have George Bush as president, well you gotta either get very serious or just laugh. Or both. Wonderful projections of different political system mean squat while you have people like that running countries and, more importantly, people letting and even loving it. Not sure what relevance that has but the quotes made me laught, just had to say something....lol

G,day Inguma

Yes I agree,we & I should chill out a bit & I apologise Atlas if I offended you or anyone else.I will just let things be & each to their own,it's just that here in Australia,we are very passionate about hating our politicians & even worse the people that tell the politicians what to do,must be a throwback from our convict days & we have the tall poppy syndrome real bad,that is believing anyone who is exceedingly rich arrived at that point by dubious means.


On the subject of the OBE's,well,it can & could work,a telepathic link up or an OBE meeting & I am willing to try with OBE'ers with a bit of experience & are open to the idea.At present I am very time poor,have essay's due & exams over the next 3 weeks,but after this semester I am keen.

Peace all & please try to do good on your journey's

Mobius

astral projection or remote viewing as it has been called
has been used a lot in the cold war by both the Americans and
the Russians to discover hidden bunkers.

Frank,

How long have you been projecting for? 10, 20, 30, 40 years?

I'm interested to see how long it has taken for you to get where you are now.

- Ashfo

Projecting without realising much of what was going on for about 3 years. Then spent around 5 years stuck in what I later termed the Training Ground. After which I've been projecting to the Astral proper for 10 years. So around 18 years in all.

I'm still not too sure where I am in the general scheme of things. That's why, about a year ago, I decided to try and make some real sense of it all: as opposed to simply looking at the Astral as a place to wander round and have adventures.

Yours,
Frank

Mobius and Atlas's exchange on political views has some merit, as it brought up the issue of can or can we not have differing philosophies and still have OBE's. I occasionaly (albeit rarely) have OBE's, but I am with Atlas all the way. Sorry, I do not see at all that he is closed minded or predjudiced. In fact, of all the posters, he seems to have the most potential for not being fooled by the astral reality shifts that so many others are mislead by. I am surprised by all you posters who do nto recognize that it is precisely Atlas's arttitude that is necessary in order to avoid being mislead in the astral world!  He should be encouraged by this, not dismissed as a debunker, for christ's sake!

In my opinion (just opinion!) Mobius is the more bigoted and politically ignorant of the two of them, adopting the common anti-establishment pose of "if it's big, itis evil" and making the common mistake of confusing the abuses of a system for the system itself. Mobius, surely you would agree that TRADE is a good thing, no? If I made windchimes and you made digeridoos (sp?) and I wanted to trade one of mine for one of yours, surely THAT would be OK in your anti-establishment world view, no? If you would agree with that statement, then you do not understand capitalism at all, and I urge you to study it further as a philosophy rather than to mistake it for the results of man's abuse of politics and power.  If you would temporary abandon your predjudice to this deeply spiritual and karmically correct way of fairly exchanging goods and services, I believe that you may find that you have been mislead by your peers into thinking that Capitalism is McDonalds, or Phillip Moris. It is not. It is merely a transformation of trade, (yours for mine), up one demensional level to where this trading system works better and more efficiently for everybody! In other words, what if I do not want a digeridoo, but you DO want a windchime? Capitalism has done far more for humanity than any other system of creative expression and invention. Don't blame the virus's (abusers) for the great program they infiltrated (Capitalism)!

I truly believe that CIA and the NSA is abusing and misusing psychic abilities. Does that mean that the systems we use for inducing OBE's and psychic development are morally wrong? Of course not. In such as case, we clearly see where the blame lies. Not in the system but in the people! Don't make the same mistake with capitalism.

Cheers,
Dashour
Atlas, keep shrugging.

Dashour,not sure if you have read all the posts, but looks like you defeated your own philosophy. Now I am anti-establishment,as well as communist & marxist,hmmm sounds like you are getting some good exercise from jumping to conclusions.

You answered some questions for yourself on our differing abilities to OBE & our different outlooks on life. I,ve been having OBE's since 6 years old,admitedly had no control until about 21,but had them regularly. I continue to have them when I choose now & put it all down to my beliefs & attitude.
It will be interesting to see if much success is achieved for those with beliefs firmly rooted in the physical,so keep us posted. I am not opposed to trade or the exchange of goods,just capatilism,given the nature of human beings,these days, your enthusiastic push to sell a product results in another country suffering,for no fault of their own.

Good journeys all

Mobius ( apparently now a bigot & ignorant according to dashour)
A rolling stone,gathers no moss

Mobius, forgive me if it was not you who originally called Atlas bigoted and ignorant. My statement was only an attempt to defend what I felt was an unfair statement against him. I have indeed tried to go back and read all the other posts, but my server is real slow here in Indo..........

I am tempted to explain further what I said about capitalism, because most people, as Atlas accurately said, misunderstands that this is a philosophy, not a movement. The definition of Capitalism is not "the effort of big multinational corporations to take over the world". I too, am vehemently opposed to this!  But, I am 100% a capitalist, because I have studied and every other choice, and realize that NO system is by itslef going to solve our worldy problems for us. Only by ourselves overcoming greed and dishonesty and pride and lust will we solve our problems. In a society of fully aware, honest, kind, sharing, compassionate and generous individuals, Capitalism is a beautiful philosophy, and the only one that makes spiritual sense. It does not matter to me that my New Age peers who have never say, read Ayn Rand, or seriously studied Capitalism as a philosophy, would prefer to just spout the latest accepted colloquial wisdoms.  

However: I will from now on stick to the subject related to OBE, as otherwise it is unfair to the other readers, so sorry everybody about previous deviations.

So, The question is: Can two different people have radically different political beliefs and still both be very successful at OBE? My answer would be absolutely, yes, no question about it. Anybody who presumes that one particular politcal stance is somehow more "spiritually correct" and therefore those with that stance will naturally be more sucessfull at OBE, IMHO, is sadly predjudiced and narrow minded. That reeeks of "my religion is better than yours, and God is going to prove it by giving me more access to higher states of consciousness than you will achieve"

I cannot for the life of me imagine a conscious universe that so limits our inate abilites in this way. Our success at OBE most certainly does depend upon our beliefs regarding OBE itself - nearly everybody with even a little experience with this knows the deep connection between one's subconscious programming and success. But to make a suggestion that another persons success would go much faster if he adopted one's own politics seems a bit immature to me. I am not accusing anybody here of doing such a thing, but some have come quite close to that in this thread.  

Love, devotion, surrender,
Dashour

dashour, can you point me to the bit where I said Atlas was a bigot, can't seem to find it. More misquoting & insinuations, also as I stated before on this topic I don't have a problem with a person choosing to have a religion,each to their own & I never suggested that I have a better religion than any other as I have no religion,so I don't have a religion to compare with you & wouldn't want to convert you or anyone into anything.

quote

" Only by ourselves overcoming greed and dishonesty and pride and lust will we solve our problems. In a society of fully aware, honest, kind, sharing, compassionate and generous individuals, Capitalism is a beautiful philosophy, and the only one that makes spiritual sense."

Yes I would like this too, but I live in a different world it seems,when are all those things going to happen? Honest,kind,sharing,compassionate and generous individuals, don't go with capatilism,how often do you see that happening? I wish people would & could be like that too,the fact is though, it won't be happening soon,so the  imbalance will continue.

dashour can you copy & paste the part of my last post where I suggested that someone would advance so much quicker if they adopted my politics?It does sound immature,that's why I didn't write that.

quote
"But to make a suggestion that another persons success would go much faster if he adopted one's own politics seems a bit immature to me. I am not accusing anybody here of doing such a thing, but some have come quite close to that in this thread"

Good journeys all

Mobius

Hey Mobius! Relax, take a deep breath! You really do need to read just a little bit slower my friend. I have gone out of my way to firstly apologize to you if indeed I mistook you for the person who used the words "bigoted and predjudiced".  I then offered an explanation of how and why I made that honest mistake. Then later on in the text, I specifically stated that I was not directly accusing any of the posters of anything.  Further, regarding religion, I used this as an ANOLOGY to the politcal stance issue, not as the example you treated it to be. It was a literary device, a simile. In other words, "This........., is like......"

This last post of yours gives me the impression that you have missed all that, and feel attacked.  Don't worry, I love you! Words are very powerfull symbols, as you already know, and I honestly think that it would benifit you to go a bit slower if you chose to reread all that. You are jumped to conclusions, and read things into my words that I did not mean, and reading an attack that I did not commit. I meant that bit about "immature judgements" in a general way, a statement relating to the issue that I wanted to comment on, not a reference to your personal comments. (!)

Love, Devotion, Surrender,
Dashour

Dashour mate, I never batted an eyelid,found it all a good learning experience & took it quite lightly,I assure you.As far as relaxing goes I couldn't be more relaxed these days as I take 12hr slow release morphine for chronic back pain,so if I did get tense.....I never felt it.

We all have our differences & opinions,my aim here is to assist people in any ways to obtain an OBE relatively easily,with practice & I don't want to convert anyone to anything but reading.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Thanks for your reply. I guess we better bail on this thread, too long, and it has become more of a personal dialog, but thanks for your continued responses.  Sorry to hear about your back, but sounds like you incorporate it all very well. Keep up all the good advice in this forum, I myself have gleened some very good things from many of your other posts. You and Frank are the two that have actualy inspired me the most!

Cheers,
Dashour (jack, actually)

Bailin' on the thread?  Just when it was getting interesting!  Just kidding!  Despite the "heated" debate, I really think a lot of interesting truths were brought to light and a lot of good points were made.  I am just glad everyone can agree to disagree and still be agreeable.


fides quaerens intellectum

G,day Daniel & Dashour

By the amount of pages this debate has generated & the number of times read, it's clear that this is a topic people are interested in & don't want to stop either. So thanks to people like Amir Noma, Atlas & Dashour for sticking your necks out on the chopping block & saying things a lot of others are probably thinking, but don't have the time or confidence or whatever reason, to put it in print.

I personally have learnt a lot of things out of this topic & wouldn't have even known about if it wasn't posted. Frank is right when he say's that this is an emerging science (OBE's), the ability to do it & the concept is ancient, but the science of proving it is new. When we develop machines able to measure more accurately the science of this phenomenon,there will be a spiritual revolution. I hope we get the chance to develop this technology before war or some dilemma plunges us back into the dark ages.

My studies, work & hobbies are leaving me time poor at the moment & I'd imagine other members are at this time of the year too. It deserves more attention this topic,but for me I'll have to wait a couple of weeks to clear up other matters occupying my mind at present.

We all want the same thing, but are coming from different angles, so some common ground must be found for us all to get to the bottom of this thing that everyone wants anyway.

Good journeys all

Mobius

Proof Of Obe - And Reward
Or
how to win 1,000,000 US$

      In the  Harry Houdini spend allot of his spare time during his performance tours to visit local psychics and mediums asking for proof of psychic phenomena in order to contact his late mother. He never found that proof. what he did manage was to expose many charlatans.

      Today his work is carried on by "The Amazing Randy". Randy picked up the glove that Houdini left when he died to prove or disprove the existance of psychic phenomena. Currently, he is offering 1.1 million dollars to one which will proove psychic phenomena.

       I am an astral projector but never have i been able to stay in the "Real Time Zone". where proof can be found.

      I ACCUSE Robert Bruce of being a charlatan. forcing him to raise the glove, and prove once and for all that Astral Projection is real. the experiment which i suggest is reported to have been accomplished once succesfully, the motive to perform it again is 1,000,000, 1 million United States of America Dollars. worth enough to fly to the US for.

       The experiment is as follows: a completely random number is written on a piece of paper without any living soul knowing the true number. it is placed in a place where only someone cheating or projecting can read it. the projector - And i am sure robert Bruce with his expertice will be succesfull in this - projects in the "Real Time Zone" and memmorizes the number and then recites it to the people overseeing the experiment who will be "The Amazing Randy" and his apprentices, which will make sure fraud is not optional.

       The projector in this case Robert Bruce or any one of you who can project in the real time zone, accomplishes 2 things:
   1. Proving to the world OBE is real
   2. Wins 1 million Dollar (Which should be contributed to welfare minus the  
       expenses of travel)

        Not Accepting this chalenges is currently considered by the rest of the world as disproof of psychic phenomena and OBE.

       More information about the 1 milliion US$ go to "The Amazing Randy"'s website.

                                                    Good Luck - the traveler - Amir Noma