Suicide and spiritual growth

[jilola]

quote:...inorder to hurry into a future existence where things are bound to be easier because you do not have a body to care for and you do not have the worries of making a living...

There's the difference between my position and the one asked in the channeling. The question presumes one is hurrying away from physical life in order to have an easier one in the afterlife. In other words escaping a difficult situation.
My position is based on the direct knowledge that one's current lifetime has reached its peak and all the spiritual lessons have been accomplished. There is no presumption of having it easier or harder or of any joys, whatever they may be).
The channeled reply is valid in the case where a person intellectualy reasons that he/she should move to the big league and in that I agree with the response.
But a time comes for each child when they indeed become adults ad that's when the reply is no longer valid. And should this time come during a lifetime the child basicaly has two options, become a babysitter or go on to independent life.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

...It is like saying they do not belong here and that just sounds negative. .../quote]

Recall tat I said inmy origiinal post about this that one had direct experiential knowledge that there is no neeed for the person to remain. In other words it's been made clear (perhaps by the higher self, the Powers That Be) that babysitting is an option and going on to be something else is just as valid a choice.

Also you mentioned "..an evolved being that seems to be stuck here..." which I take to indicate that the person doesn't have the direct experience of all having been done and instead still has work to be done in the lifetime. Or perhaps has the knowledge but also sees that he/she is needed to help others in which case the choice focuses on that individual's choice of how to proceed;should he/she stay and help on the physical or move on that help on the non-physical levels.

Why would someone want to leave? Perhaps given the knowledge of all having been accomplished in his/her lifetime one chooses to experience one perfect day and go peacefully instead of diluting it with a hundred average days?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

quote:Also, if the evolved being questions the decision at all or has doubts about it, I would say there is resistance for a reason.

Indeed. If one were to have doubts it would indicate that perhaps the choice isn't a real one.

quote:ou are here for only a short time when you look at the big picture--the astral is infinite—there is so much here that isn't there. Why not enjoy it?

The big picture is that there is no difference between the astral and physical life. They are the same excistence perceived from a different vantage point and thus rendered into different representations of reality.  

quote:I know what you are going to say but what if a Neg did attach itself to someone evolved in order to get rid of them? Not seeing the beauty of life here & enjoying the physical world, the creation, could be a negative belief

But you miss my point entirely. I've never said that person making the decision wouldn't see th beauty of life and the physical world. I've only said that the person knows that his/her work has been accomplished.
As for negs are you suggesting that a neg (for the sake of argument I'll assume there is such a thing) would be able to assert its will by using love, compassion and the serenity of knowing one is complete and in direct communion with all that exists? After every post on the boards claiming that negs can only use fear, depression, anger amd hate?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

I think I figured out where we miscommunicate.
You're thinking on suicide in the normal sense, ie. using physical means to end a lifetime. I'm referring to the simple desicision to just stop living. Much in the manner of saying "So long and thank you for all the fish" and then checking out. No nooses, bullets or icky substances involved.

quote:...it can just be a deep-rooted belief that needs clearing..

By belief I assume you mean delusion. That could well be the case and naturally one would have to carefully examine the cause of such a realization to ascertain that it's valid.

quote:...How can someone know they are complete? ...

This is a question that cannot be answered for everyone in the same manner and words. But it's the same kind of realization that a person gets when he/she reaches an enlightened state and perceives the underlying unity of all of existence.

quote:...Why do they think they would be better able to serve in the astral?...

Why would they think they would better serve on the physical? The question assumes physical is inherently better suited for all development when in fact it's a perspective well suited for some development while the non-physical is the perpective of choice for other inds of development.

quote:...Are there no spiritual consequences to murder?...

Imho, no other consequences save for those one believes there should be.

quote:insane rapture & needs to come down out of the clouds

Indeed. Like I said above one should be careful in determining the validity of the realization.
But my original premise was that one is in control and completely aware of the realization so that essentially it has been deemed valid.

A tricky matter, if any.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[narfellus]

Fantastic thread!

Frank, jiola, and others, thank you for sharing your insights and experiences. I have to say i agree in a large part with most of what each of you are saying. Everyone seems to have a distinct and clear cut opinion of suicide and lessons learned. I cannot say myself what the true implications of suicide mean. What i've most understood is that when a person kills oneself, they are robbing themselves of lessons to be learned. Furthermore, a spiritually weak or confused person will most likely CONTINUE to be spiritually weak and confused...and dead. I used to have this theory: why not kill youself? Your angels appear, God gives you a hug, says "Sorry for the rough trip. what do you want to do now?" and then you move on with existense.
  At this point in my learning, i believe that scenario would only unfold if the suicide victim truly believed it would unfold like that. And if someone was that clear about the afterlife, it is highly unlikely that they could suicide anyway.

Regardless, everyone reflections and perceptions are wonderful, often clarifying and usually enlightening. We are all here to learn, and pieces to the Cosmic Puzzle keep falling into place. I love it.

[galacticsurfer]

SOME POETRY AND POP MUSIC ON RESISTING DEATH AND SUICIDE

DYLAN THOMAS:

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.





Queen - Don't Try Suicide

A one, two, three, four, one... Yeah... OK

Don't do it, don't you try it baby
Don't do that, don't, don't, don't
Don't do that, You got a good thing going now
Don't do it, don't do it... Don't

Don't try suicide, nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, Nobody cares
Don't try suicide, you're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide, nobody gives a damn

So you think it's the easy way out?
Think you're gonna slash your wrists... this time
Baby when you do it all you do is get on my tits
Don't do that, try, try, try, baby
Don't do that, you got a good thing going now
Don't do it don't do it... Don't

Don't try suicide, nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, nobody cares
Don't try suicide, you're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide, nobody gives a damn

You need help, look at yourself you need help
You need life, So don't hang yourself
It's ok, ok, ok, ok
You just can't be a prick teaser all of the time
A little bit attention, you got it
Need some affection, you got it
Suicide, suicide, suicide, bid
Suicide, suicide, suicide, bid... Suicide

Don't do it don't do it don't do it babe (yeah)
Don't do it don't do it don't, do it... Yeah
Don't put your neck on the line
Don't drown on me babe, blow your brains out
Don't do that (yeah)
Don't do that, you got a good thing going baby
Don't do it (no) don't do it (no) don't

Don't try suicide, Nobody's worth it
Don't try suicide, Nobody cares
Don't try suicide, You're just gonna hate it
Don't try suicide
Nobody gives, nobody cares, Nobody gives a damn



I like Dylan Thomas better personally although it is not about suicide. Obviously even old people do not want to give up life quietly. My father is 80 and has this attitude. The Queen song is clear, who cares if you do kill yourself? It is not going to help at all or get any sympathy which is what most of us are looking for to get us out of our depressions, a life saver being thrown to us. My depressions were never that deep but only through a disciplined spiritual life have I obtained real joy and purpose in life. The struggle to obtain greater spiritual heights  is what makes the whole thing worthwhile, learning to really love yourself and others.

[jilola]

Narfellus:

quote:suicide victim

How can there b a victim is the alleged victim and the prerequisite perpetrator are the same person?

GalaticSurfer:
Yep, running away from problems via suicide is not a good idea although in some cases I can see why someone would choose that. The problems won't go away, only the circumstances change.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[narfellus]

well, i suppose a suicide is sort of like a part of you killing yourself. Maybe look at it as your Fear being the attacker. Anyway, i meant it as a figure of speech.

[jilola]

Narfellus:

quote: Maybe look at it as your Fear being the attacker

Yes,perhaps. If one chooses to exit a lifetime because of desperation, depression, a wish to avoid difficulty etc that could be the case.

2cents  & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

So what about the father who runs into a burning house to save his children knowing that he will not survive himself?
The bystander who runs on front of a truck to push another away and get hit?
The man who takes a bullet for another in a war?

These are both examples of what is essentially a suicide. Yet in both cases it's considered not only laudable but in many cases is even expected.

I think in the discussions about suicide and death the end of life part gets blown out of proportion and the circumstances completely overlooked in favour of the society's ideology and "accepted" thinking in the matter.

Saying that suicide is the cowards way out and that it's wrong in all circumstances is oversimplification. Our conditioned abhorrence of death clouds the mind.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

quote:Rather, only the individual involved can make such an important decision, and whatever decision he or she does make, it should be respected.

I agree with that with the reservation that the choice be made in a clear state of mind and not as a knee-jerk reaction to adversity.

The pro-choice argument is used in many other areas that involved a personal choice but in my experience without requiring that the idividual in question is fully capable of making such choices. If the person is making a conscious and calm decision, what ever that may be, about his/her person then it's for nobody else to reject the decision.

If the choices are harmful to others others should intervene but barring that who's to decide for me what a person can and cannot do with him/herself?

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Eric g]

quote:Originally posted by jilola

So what about the father who runs into a burning house to save his children knowing that he will not survive himself?
The bystander who runs on front of a truck to push another away and get hit?
The man who takes a bullet for another in a war?

These are both examples of what is essentially a suicide. Yet in both cases it's considered not only laudable but in many cases is even expected.

IMO the above is not suicide but a showcase of unconditial love..

[jilola]

Where, exactly, is the difference then?
The end result is the same only the reasons are different.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Phong]

I for one am of the pro-choice side that runlola describes, however, with one stipulation. Anyone in a position of high responsibility (a parent, spouse, military officer) should not be allowed to kill themselves, however rational and calm their mind may be. These types of positions are life-binding commitments, so your decision to accept life or reject it should be made before entering them.

So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide. [|)]

[jilola]

Phong:

quote: (a parent, spouse, military office

I agree but your examples have only one case where harm is imminent to another and that is the parent.
An adult spouse is not harmed or put in danger. Neither are the subordinates or superiors of an officer unless he suicides while in a situation that will endanger his subordinates.

If you view a spousal relationship as a "life binding" commitment then you have created a situation where those in the realtionship are directly putting each other in the harms way by refusing them the possibility of ending the relationship if it becomes disruptive ot either party. It ends being a relationship of love and becomes the prison of duty.

Being a military officer is an occupation.

The only case against a voluntary suicide is that one has dependents who would not be able to support and take care of themselves.

quote:So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide

I couldn't agree with you more. Conscious decisions and honesty. There's the ticket.

3cents & L&L
jouni

[Stillwater]

quote:Being a military officer is an occupation.

The only case against a voluntary suicide is that one has dependents who would not be able to support and take care of themselves.

Very true, however, as was pointed out by a later statement in response to a previous quote,

quote:quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, deciding whether or not to have a child or a spouse should be given the same weight as the decisioin of suicide
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I couldn't agree with you more. Conscious decisions and honesty. There's the ticket.

some choices should be made with the understanding that they carry with them a burden of responsibility that is not so lightly discarded. It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

Thank you,
Stillwater

[jilola]

quote:It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

I can agree in the case where someone incapable of surviving on their own is in my care but in the case of adults the idea that my choices are defined by others is odd to say the least.

The only choice that should always be made from the point of view of another is having children be it by natural birth or adoption.
Anyother choice is first and foremost to be made in succh a way that the decision maker is tru to his/her self. Otherwise the decisions become a prison and lead to entirely unnecessary bitterness.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Stillwater]

quote:So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

Of course not! A relationship is not he only sort of position that would bring with it responsibilities, however, it would fit the paradigm. Suicide is not the only way of dealing with problems! You speak as though it is the exclusive option in this case. You are always free to converse with others upon the situation at hand. To kill onself in a position in which others somehow depend on you without saying a word to anyone else about your condition or ideas is a negative action in most cases- it is abandoning those who hold a dependancy upon you. You would not simply stop feeding a dog or cat. This case is similar in many respects, no?

Thank you,
Stillwater

[Phong]

With the spousal issue, military, etc., you make a great deal of sense lola. One can always divorce or quit their job and then off themselves.

People tend to think of suicide as a decision made on a whim - that if only the person waited a few more years they would've changed their mind. There are people who, from very young ages, recognized the limits of this existence and have kept suicide as an option onwards towards their adult life. This is not emotional in the conventional sense, nor strictly developmental. It's personally derived preference.

Why this concept escapes so many, I don't know. To prefer what is not to what is is the essential driving force behind human growth.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by jilola

quote:It is not that it is not the right of the individual to choose, but rather that they made a previous decsion which brought others under their care or supervision, and to default upon such duties is a tragedy indeed.

So after having started a relationship my choices as an individual stop existing? And that no matter what a decision, once made, should always hold? That presumes that having made a wrong choice the life that follows is a just punishment for making the mistake.

I can agree in the case where someone incapable of surviving on their own is in my care but in the case of adults the idea that my choices are defined by others is odd to say the least.

The only choice that should always be made from the point of view of another is having children be it by natural birth or adoption.
Anyother choice is first and foremost to be made in succh a way that the decision maker is tru to his/her self. Otherwise the decisions become a prison and lead to entirely unnecessary bitterness.

2cents & L&L
jouni

Jouni,

Are you still talking suicide here or decisions in general[?]

Yours,
Kerri

[jilola]

Stillwater, Phong: Please read my posts. My position is that suicide should not be a way to run away from problems.

Stillwater

quote:To kill onself in a position in which others somehow depend on you without saying a word to anyone else about your condition or ideas is a negative action in most cases- it is abandoning those who hold a dependancy upon you

I thought we agreed on this []
Any choice and action should be made in such a way as to cause as little or no harm to others.
But a person, if considered free and having a free will, s ultimately the oneto make a decision, be it leaving, staying, living, dying, taking a oad, geting drunk. And I can see that comparing the choice of suicide with getting drunk will get thrown back at me []

Phong: Indeed such drastic a decision should be made witha a clear head and with enough time to avoid making a mistake that can't be reversed in this lifetime.

Lighthouse: Still on topic, only on a short sidetrack to tie in the opinion offered about sitation where one seemingly may not own one's self.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[narfellus]

Ah, the suicide debate. This is a tricky one, but i'll add what i can. So, before birth if we all choose our own death, it is from the spiritual standpoint that when we are in Lesson we have certain goals to accomplish, for ourselves or others or both. Suicide during life is usually the result of earthly fear, material loss, inescapable fate. The illusion of terror is so strong, the depression, the anger, the hate, the myriad of negative emotions prompt one to take their life, hoping for better, but to die when one feels SO bad often leads to them feeling just as bad dead...and with no body.

I remember reading that when Robert Bruce was possessed he was ready to kill himself. But his decision was based solely on saving the lives of his children and family, as the demon was intent on killing them first and driving him insane. I believe that at the time Bruce was aware of his spiritual options, his divine nature and would not have killed himself from lack of knowledge or intuition. Fortunately he didn't have to do that.

Add to the equation those spiritual decisions that are made where we DO decide to kill ourselves. I don't see why some spirits make this decision willingly, if not a lesson to themselves but to others. The complexity of the karma involved is mind boggling and i don't understand it all, but in general i think it is better not to kill oneself if at all possible. The Lesson ends abruptly, and spiritually you are just delaying what you could have learned. Still, there are times when suicide is not a bad choice: perhaps chronic pain, unavoidable death, unavoidable torture...I never thought that Dr. Kavorkian(sp?) was a criminal. He thought he was helping, and the people he helped die did so peacefully.

[jilola]

Narfellus:

quote: I don't see why some spirits make this decision willingly, if not a lesson to themselves but to others.

Yup. Cant think of anything that would add to that.
Edit: I could after all:

I think one should be careful to make necessary distinctions with the situations and motives for someone chooseing to end his life.

Running away from problems may indeed have spiritual adverse consequences but if a person has given his best effort to resolve the situation and has failed. What is so spiritually noble that a person would have to endure unending grief and pain?

Suicidce to harm others intentionally by causing them grief is clearly not a good idea.

Self-sacrifice is a nice and PC euphemism for a voluntary suicide. It's laudable that one should care for others so much that he's willing to risk his own life for them.

Another situation is having the revelation that one's life work (spiritually speaking) is complete and one has the option of staying to help others or leaving early. Who is to say that leaving early isn't a lesson to those left behind about the illusion of death and that one shouldn't fear it so much as to let it control one's life?

2cents & L&l
Jouni

[Nagual]

To come back to the "responsibility" thing...  What do you think of: "Your parents took care of you; so now it's your turn to take care of your parents".  Basicaly, you would be responsible for them for the rest of their lives; which could be something like 50+ years...  Is this right?  Shouldn't the parents have planned the rest of their lives?

Some parents just "kick" their children out of their house; as soon as they are 18/21.  Is that giving up on their responsability?

And, if some people feel so bad as to end up their life; I'm pretty sure they won't even think about this responsability thing.

Personaly, I love freedom.  That's why I will never get married or have children.  I don't want to be chained for the rest of my life.

Also, you talk mainly about suicide because of fear, or to escape problems...  What about people who cannot find anything meaningfull in their life?  If you put aside all the theories of re-incarnation, learning lessons, spiritual test for the after life, etc...  What pushes you to go on with your life (apart from the fear of death)?  Maybe we are just there to grow, reproduce and expand our consciousness... to be later "milked" by some higher entit(y/ies)...

[jilola]

Nagual:

quote:Also, you talk mainly about suicide because of fear,

Could you specify who you refer to with "you"? There are so many psoters recently that it gets confusing [8D]

2cents & L&L
jouni