Dreaming of an OOBE

[Rye]

Hi, I´m new to this forum so forgive me if I´m not spot-on with the protocol.

I´ve been filling my mind with stuff about AP for several weeks now, doing as much reading as I can. It all began with flying dreams, what got me interested.

Last night I think I dreamt of an OOBE. I most definitely experienced climbing out of my body, and then flying, or falling, through the air (like skydiving) surrounded by drones. No recollection of looking at my sleeping body, or my then surroundings. The whole experience lasted about thirty seconds, but it felt very dreamlike, not especially lucid.

What do you think? It was a dream?

Let me add something here - on waking, for a couple of minutes I was hallucinating beautiful violin music, pipes, some vocals...

I was extremely happy and blissed out about this experience despite the fact that I was experiencing auditory hallucinations. I decided at some point to let go my fear of madness, just accept everything with love and wonder, that sort of thing

Buenas dias... Rye.

[Xanth]

Hi Rye!  Welcome to the forum!

Putting aside notions of "seeing your sleeping body" or "climbing out of your body"...
The only question one needs to ask themselves to whether an experience was a projection or not is:  Were you consciously aware that you were non-physical?"

That's it.  Everything else is simply not important, that's because most people have this grand idea of what it means to project...
From what they read (from other people with the same grand notions), they get the idea set up in their heads of separating from their physical bodies and floating around their bedroom and crap like that.

The ONLY thing which is important is, while you're experiencing the non-physical, you must realize you're experiencing the non-physical. 
So essentially, what people call a "lucid dream" is a full projection, yet they simply refuse to believe it.

From the description of your experience... from the "climbing out of your physical body" (who does that if they're not aware?), I'd say it was a projection.
Now with that said, a "dream" is a projection as well.  It's a projection where you simply don't realize you're projecting.  You're the actor in a play, sort-to-speak.  While a projection is kind of like you're the actor in a play, but you have full notion that you're not REALLY the actor, and you have some semblance of control over how things play out.

Does any of this make sense?

[Rye]

Hello Xanth.

Thanks for the reply.

I see your point. There was most definitely a moment of great effort followed by a feeling of, ´yes, I´m free... up and away´.

I see it as an introductory experience.

For several weeks to several months I´ve been consuming the literature on the subject, so, from a prior perspective, I doesn´t surprise me to have ´dreamt´ about it since it was what I was thinking about during the day.

What was most indicative, I feel, of how ´real´ (or perhaps rather, authentic) this experience was, was my state of mind afterwards. Fully awake, I was aware of being connected into something. I made the conscious decision to close that faucet... I can´t walk around all day having music playing in my ears...

I´ll let you know how it all progresses in this post.

Meanwhile, here, it is raining.

Have a nice day.

[Xanth]

I see your point. There was most definitely a moment of great effort followed by a feeling of, ´yes, I´m free... up and away´.

To be consciously aware of your "self" is the only determining factor of the experience.

For several weeks to several months I´ve been consuming the literature on the subject, so, from a prior perspective, I doesn´t surprise me to have ´dreamt´ about it since it was what I was thinking about during the day.

This is a double edged sword, one which most people fall into the trap of... including myself.
They want to read and digest as much information on the subject as they can... not realizing that that very act usually leads to a narrowing of their beliefs and expectations.
There was a guy who used to post on here named Pauli, he had MANY successes with projection, yet he never personally acknowledged them because those experiences didn't fit within the narrow confines of what he had read about over the many years previously.  So he essentially threw out those experiences and labeled them as having no value because he didn't "rise out of his physical body", "felt the vibrations", etc... *sigh*

So in the end, read what you can, take it in, but kind of put it off into the "maybe" pile for now.  Reason being is that all this stuff is unique to the experiencer.  My experience of the non-physical isn't going to be the same as yours... in just about every way you can imagine.  I could share with you an experience, and you might say "well I had a similar experience!"... but you'd be horribly wrong, because experience is unique.  You may not even believe this now, but this is also how our physical reality experiences work.  Each of us experiences in a different way.

Take 10 people who all witness an event happen and you will get 10 different perspectives of it.  

What was most indicative, I feel, of how ´real´ (or perhaps rather, authentic) this experience was, was my state of mind afterwards. Fully awake, I was aware of being connected into something. I made the conscious decision to close that faucet... I can´t walk around all day having music playing in my ears...

Also, don't fall into the trap of "how real" an experience is.  Some people say that their projections feel MORE REAL than waking life... well, that's actually a silly comparison to make, because "WHAT IS REAL?"

Real is anything you can experience.  If you experience something, then it's real.  It can't be more or less real than something else.  
Example... say you had a projection where you flew over Paris.  You EXPERIENCED it... it 100% happened.  It's as real an experience as walking to your local store is, because it happens to you.

We do this usually because we lack the proper common language in order describe these experiences in a manner which we can all agree on.  If I tell you to go to your kitchen table and bring me an apple which is there, it's relatively simple to do (assuming there's an apple there in the first place LoL), that's because we have a proper common language which we agree upon.  We know what a "kitchen" is, we know what a "table" is, and we know what an "apple" is.  No such commonality exists in regard to the non-physical.

I feel that when people talk about how "real" an experience was, what I believe they're actually talking about is the clarity of their experience in comparison to their normal waking life.  
I believe the clarity comes from the fact that when you're non-physical you're not experiencing through the filters of your human existence.  Without those "human body" filters in place, things feel more raw... more clear... you're experiencing through the filters of your consciousness instead.

The best way I can describe it is like putting on a fresh, new pair of shoes.  When you start walking around on them, they feel so much nicer, crisp, cleaner and just generally feel great.
Well, that's kind of like when we go from the physical to the non-physical.  You're taking off your old shoes and putting on new shoes which you have very little experience wearing.  It feels new and crisp!

I´ll let you know how it all progresses in this post.

I look forward to reading more as you progress!  

Meanwhile, here, it is raining.

Bleh... not a big fan of rain here either.  hehe

[Rye]

Thanks for your insight... My mind is open on the subject, and by open, I mean empty. Everything I´ve read - Lobsang Rampa, Robert Munroe... - I´ve subsequently forgotten

At some point you´ll have to ask for confirmation from another consciousness of shared experience, like the shared dreaming in the movie Inception; or two points of contact between the physical and non-physical (two points required to make a line), like Madame Blavatsky asking her Indian friends to project over to London to read the Times. Putting aside what is ´real´ (Nabokov wrote´reality´ only makes sense put in inverted commas) you have to determine the relationship between the physical and the non-physical: even if the entire universe is all dreamt up by me and I´m the only consciousness.

Put another way, I´m not just interested in having more vivid or meaningful dreams, but I want to enhance my current ´reality´. I want to grow towards the sun, I want to move to the next level of existence. If this is part of the way then it´s part of the way. If it isn´t, then it isn´t, I don´t mind.

But I´m not losing sleep over the philosophy...

[Xanth]

At some point you´ll have to ask for confirmation from another consciousness of shared experience, like the shared dreaming in the movie Inception; or two points of contact between the physical and non-physical (two points required to make a line), like Madame Blavatsky asking her Indian friends to project over to London to read the Times. Putting aside what is ´real´ (Nabokov wrote´reality´ only makes sense put in inverted commas) you have to determine the relationship between the physical and the non-physical: even if the entire universe is all dreamt up by me and I´m the only consciousness.

That's what I'm trying to tell you, getting such a confirmation from "another consciousness" (aka: someone outside of you) isn't possible, because experience is unique to the consciousness experiencing.

Put another way, I´m not just interested in having more vivid or meaningful dreams, but I want to enhance my current ´reality´. I want to grow towards the sun, I want to move to the next level of existence. If this is part of the way then it´s part of the way. If it isn´t, then it isn´t, I don´t mind.

Well, okay... we start start there then.

Answer this question for me: "What is a dream?"

[Rye]

Good day.

I don´t know (what a dream is).

Robert Monroe, in ´Journeys out of the Body´, writes about comforting a sick boy while projecting. Later, in a projection, he encounters the astral body of the boy, who has since passed on. The boy asks him, ´Where do I go now?´
Later on, Monroe reads in the newspaper that a local boy has died after a protracted illness. The reason for reporting this would seem to be to suggest the boy Monroe meets projecting and the local boy who´s died are the same boy, although Munroe doesn´t try to prove it.
On another occasion he visits a family who are aware of his presence and considers contacting them in real life.
In both cases he is looking for a logical or causal connectivity between physical and nonphysical experiences that are independant of him as observor.

[Xanth]

I don´t know (what a dream is).

That's perfect.  The problem though is that you use phrases above as if you did.
Hell, even I don't know what dreams are... but while I cannot tell you what they are, I *CAN* tell you what they are not.

A dream isn't any concept of idea which humanity has currently, scientifically discovered.  That is something I can tell for absolute certain.
Science has yet to uncover anything regarding the experience.

SO...
When you say:

Put another way, I´m not just interested in having more vivid or meaningful dreams

Consider deeply what you're actually trying to say here. 

Robert Monroe, in ´Journeys out of the Body´, writes about comforting a sick boy while projecting. Later, in a projection, he encounters the astral body of the boy, who has since passed on. The boy asks him, ´Where do I go now?´
Later on, Monroe reads in the newspaper that a local boy has died after a protracted illness. The reason for reporting this would seem to be to suggest the boy Monroe meets projecting and the local boy who´s died are the same boy, although Munroe doesn´t try to prove it.
On another occasion he visits a family who are aware of his presence and considers contacting them in real life.
In both cases he is looking for a logical or causal connectivity between physical and nonphysical experiences that are independant of him as observor.

Would you care to venture a guess as to why experiences independent of the observer very rarely happen (if at all?).

I personally don't believe the causal connection most people toss around, such as a "real time zone".  I have my own theories, most of which conflict with most people who practice such things.  LoL

[Rye]

 

That's perfect.  The problem though is that you use phrases above as if you did.

Sorry.

Would you care to venture a guess as to why experiences independent of the observer very rarely happen (if at all?).

When we´re born into the physical world as infants, we don´t recognise anything around us or know what anything is. It takes time for us to create coherent semantic structures based on our sense-data. We accord these with what we read as other consciousnesses... this is an apple, etc... developing a consensus, collective reality.
That´s on the physical plane. On the non-physical plane, thought takes a more active role, becoming a creator principle. The laws determining phenomena in the non-physical are less conducive to the collective sharing of experience. Physically-conditioned beings, we´re all at sea in the astral.
Alternatively, all OOBE´s are confabulations of the subconscious+conscious mind, and dreams are the emergent property of re-equilibrating neurochemistry. They´re just dreams, but I can use them to collect social status and build my sense of separation and importance, special snowflake that I am.

I prefer to believe the first one but I can´t write off the second without validation

[Rye]

You ought to know that I keep a pet sceptic on a chain, and I take him everywhere.  He´s called Mephistopheles, and he bites, but he keeps me grounded.

[Xanth]

No worries.

I actually wouldn't have it any other way. 

In the meantime, your only goal should be to have personal experiences, that way you can go from just "believing" to "knowing". 

[Rye]

Right. It´s an epistemological quagmire. You start to understand why they write these paradoxical haikus in Zen.

Practice first, theory later.

Peace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fFbeSykaJk

[Xanth]

Practice first, theory later.

I train in Yoshinkan Aikido, and ironically, that's how we train. 

Practice, practice, practice... then understanding of how it works.

[Lumaza]

Practice first, theory later.

I train in Yoshinkan Aikido, and ironically, that's how we train.  

Practice, practice, practice... then understanding of how it works.

Figure that. That seems like that would apply with the Art of Astral Projection as well, lol!    

You would have to change it to "practice, practice, practice .... then passively observe", lol! 

[Rye]

Here´s something.

Hi, Xanth -

I was feeling a bit down as a went to bed, after an afternoon of beer and cigarettes, so I did something like praying -

About 5 O´clock I woke, unintentionally, then went back to sleep. Then I dreamt I was walking the streets of Barcelona. There was no ´leaving the body´ moment like I´ve had in other dreams. I´ve been walking the streets of Barcelona a lot lately, I live about an hour from the city. It was dark, there was no-one about. I was amazed at the detail, how I was looking at masonry, brickwork, paving, colour, imperfection, wear... all the tiny little detail that you see in life was there. Then in an alleyway I thought, ´Why am I walking when I could be flying?´ - and on my third, willed, attempt I lifted off and rose up above the level of the rooftops. I flew around a bit, but I lost control of it. I was passing through buildings and walls, I seem to remember being dragged very quickly through a room and seeing furniture. Then I cut out completely, and I think I woke.

I had in mind to try to identify the skyline as the Barcelona skyline, which means spotting one or two of its distinctive features: the Agbar Tower, the Sagrada Familia, but I wasn´t able to.

Said I´d keep you posted.

Best wishes.

Rye.

   

[Nameless]

Hi Rye, Been following your conversation here. I absolutely think Xanth is spot on. We just can't base our NP life on the confirmation of others, it's just so personal. But if you ask for confirmation you will get confirmation. Problem is that the confirmation will likely only prove what you seek to you and no one else, although there have been exceptions.

Xanth: Darn, so it's practice practice practice - then theorize. Figures I been doing it wrong. Nah, just kidding, while this might not make sense to someone who has never tried it this way once they do they will see.

Lumaza: Haha, yep.

Oh yeah, Welcome to the forum Rye. I think you will be an inspiration.

[Rye]

Oh yeah, Welcome to the forum Rye. I think you will be an inspiration.

LOL Thanks.

Well, "per aspera ad astra..."

Last night I dreamed someone commented I needed a haircut. But it was probably me.

Oh yes, as for the subject of confirmation, I have a feeling that I know where I was (in the dream I reported previously) and I´m going to go off and look for it now I´ve been reminded. There was a sort of a small square and a red brick archway...