Vehram Energy System Offers Validation for OOBE's

[VessenHopkins]

One of the biggest objectives for oobe practitioners is to achieve validation.  I have seen a number of posts on this topic and other questions about the vibrational energy.  To have a full understanding of how the Vehram System offers validation for the reality of spiritual separation requires a little knowledge about physics, and quantum physics in particular, but it all comes down to the concept that energy behaves according to a set of principles that are already defined in science, and which would not be represented in a hallucinatory phenomenon.

Without getting into a too-highly technical discussion, the basic premise is that all forms of energy obey the laws of thermodynamics, two of which are of particular importance with regards to the observed behavior of the Vehram Energy System and its interaction with the ethereal body: - the first law is conservation of energy and the second law being the law of entropy.  Conservation of energy means that energy does not disappear or vanish - it may change forms but within a closed system, energy is conserved.

One of the consequences of conservation of energy is that ambient (radiant) energy dissipates in its intensity with regard to the square of the distance from its source.  This means that all forms of radiant energy can be measured in strict accordance with the "inverse square principle" that states that half the distance closer to a source will result in an increase of intensity equal to four times the amount.  This is why the closer you are to a fire the hotter it feels.

The ambient energy of the Vehram System also follows this rule and so represents a measurable phenomenon others can validate for themselves.  Simply reach outside your body while in the hypnagogic-state with your ethereal hand, feel the radiance of energy emanating from the Vehram Array's individual orbs, and notice what happens as you get closer to the center. You will feel an exponential increase of intensity the closer you get.

The second law, the law of entropy, states that within a closed system, order gives way to chaos and not the other way around.  Temperature, which is a measurement of entropy because the faster the particles are moving the less order they are said to have, is one way of demonstrating this principle.  Heat moves toward cold which is why an ice-cube next to a fire melts instead of the flame freezing.

The interaction between the Vehram System and the ethereal body demonstrates the law of entropy in that the vibrational energy that enters the body disperses throughout the ethereal body - seeking a state of equilibrium, and in doing so creates more entropy throughout the ethereal body. An example of how this law would be broken is if entrance of ethereal energy within the ethereal body resulted in a weakening of the vibrations or if the absence of vibrations within the ethereal body caused the Vehram System to no longer generate ethereal energy.

The real point here is that hallucinatory phenomenon do not require an adherence to established laws of physics.  One may wonder why an ethereal phenomenon would.  I happen to think that whatever laws account for the interface of the ethereal with the physical requires a marriage of similar principles between the two.  Many have noted that once free of the physical body, the ethereal body may also be discarded and it is at this point that we are no longer in a physics based realm.  At the very least, something can be said of our ability to exist outside the body in terms of our basic nature being more than just physical.  If the out-of-body experience is a real separation, then so too is our experience out of the body.  The Vehram System represents a set of hard-core principles that prove our separation is real.

You can learn more at www.vehram.com

[Lighten]

Keep pretending you know anything and keep selling your books.

[Panthau]

This vehram thing only works if you are able to get into sleep paralysis.
So not useful for people who cant. Anyway, i know someone who can,
and he validatet that it works.

[T.L.]

Keep pretending you know anything and keep selling your books.

   That's quite a negative attitude you have there. If his ideas lead to new discoveries in regards to the out of body state, or at least have the potential to do so why shouldn't he sell it or be compensated in some way? Another question is if someone makes something whether it be music, art or books can you blame them for attempting to sell them, after all what is the point of creating something if you can't share it or sell it at your own discretion? Personally I have no interest though in a "system" as I use my own experience to guide me and show me what I should do next. I also like to personally experiment with the state and see for myself it's limitations, and based off of that come up with my own experiments to come to terms and a greater understanding of the state itself. Locking yourself into a belief or a system only limits the perceptions or experiments you may want to conduct.

   For example it's like a student going to physics lectures in college will be taught certain standards and "laws" that can not be broken or bent. Then when they want to come up with something new they will try to mold that idea to the laws that he/she was taught were concrete laws that had no slack..etc. They are trying to create something in a predefined box, and it limits the boundaries of what can could potentially do. Conversely someone in their own garage can create something that most physicists thought impossible because it seems to completely break some of the laws they were taught, and have taught others for years. The reason is because this guy in his garage did not place himself in a box when he thought of creating what he did, he was not taught that A. or B. was impossible and not to try it because it simply wont work.  More and more, if anything, the out of body state has taught me that nothing (especially while obe) is impossible. It even seems that you can't even factor probability into the equation for something you would like to try while out of the body because there just are not enough "knowns" yet about the state.

[VessenHopkins]

Keep pretending you know anything and keep selling your books.

If this were just about selling books, then I would not post all the information freely on the site.  Explore the subject matter and do your own experimentation.  That was the whole purpose behind sharing the discovery and the principles behind it.  The only thing you will find in my guide that is not posted on the site is my personal story and the method that I use to induce my own oobe's - much of which is shared on this site under related posts.

Skepticism has a place in science only so far as to maintain non-bias.  When it serves to outright dismiss ideas then it is no longer scientific.  Maintain an objective point of view.  Nowhere is this more important than in astral projection where mind and belief have real power to influence one's reality.

By the way, if I am wrong about the principles mentioned above, please explain.  As Albert Einstein once said about thermodynamics, "It is the only physical theory of universal content which I am convinced will never be overthrown, within the framework of applicability of its basic concepts."

[Panthau]

If this is something private, then you should use pm. If not, it should be better ignored.
My 5 cents

[Lighten]

It's just ignorant to think that you can even begin to try and explain a phenomena like the OBE. I don't know where you came up with all these theories that somehow the 'ethereal body' had to conform to physics. So when we are OBE and we are floating, does gravity not exist yet thermal dynamics exist? Your making arguments that cant even be considered theories they are so absurd. Every time you talk about energy you are talking about something non physical yet you want to make it conform to physical laws....makes no sense. And if you truly think you can understand it then please come up with something better than waking up in the middle of the night and going back to sleep. Vehram balls of energy? once you are in SP you don't need those balls.

I'm not saying your information about waking up in the middle of the night and going back to sleep and focusing on the out breath doesn't work. I'm not saying you cant come up with helpful information to sell to people. I'm just saying you have NO IDEA how it works. And when you pretend to know it makes you sound like you are either really ignorant, or are trying to sell books. Pick one.

[VessenHopkins]

There are specific principles governing our ability to separate from the physical body and because they relate to the physical condition they must also relate to physics.  Once outside the physical realm, obviously a new set of principles begin to take over.  You appear to make an argument that physics is non-spiritual when in fact the physical universe is simply an extension of the spiritual.

Every time you talk about energy you are talking about something non physical yet you want to make it conform to physical laws.

Energy is not necessarily "non physical."  The actual scientific definition is "the ability to do work."  What we generally refer to as "energy" is actually scientifically termed "electromagnetic waveforms" and they do abide by specific laws as mentioned.  The idea that I am communicating is that the Vehram Energy System abides by similar laws, as observed in the unique interactions that occur between it and the ethereal body.

I never intended to imply that the laws are hard-core physics, only that they are similar.  I generally use the term "ethereal physics" and perhaps should have been a little more careful in my post. These principles should only be applied to the ethereal body and its interface with the physical system.

The laws of gravity would not necessarily have that much affect on the ethereal body as any mass that it may contain is extremely low. (There have been experiments conducted that reported a slight decrease in weight upon death, suggesting the ethereal body may have a mass). Once beyond the ethereal level, even ethereal based physics wouldly be off the table.

You have also not addressed the question of whether radiant energy is the product of thermodynamics and the fact that the Vehram system does have an ambient radiation emanating from the individual centers.  My simple argument here is that this is a universal attribute that others can use to validate their own experience.

Mostly I find your comments negative and dissmisive, which are reflective of a most unconstructive attitude toward the phenomenon and indeed should not even garner a response.

[Lighten]

You still don't know what your talking about and are using backwards logic to try and cover yourself. At then end of the day you don't know any more than anyone else about the subject. And yes, my comments are negative, it irritates me that you come on here posting nonsense. Some people don't know any better and buy into your pretend science talk. I could argue all your points into the ground, but there is no point, you will just use backwards logic and some more "ethereal physics" and try to sound like you know what your saying.

A 13 year old can see though your BullS*it. You obviously know nothing about physics and just Wikipedia some stuff and post in on here as fact or theory. Sell your books, but don't pretend you have anything more to offer than some techniques to OBE, because you don't.

he interaction between the Vehram System and the ethereal body demonstrates the law of entropy in that the vibrational energy that enters the body disperses throughout the ethereal body - seeking a state of equilibrium, and in doing so creates more entropy throughout the ethereal body. An example of how this law would be broken is if entrance of ethereal energy within the ethereal body resulted in a weakening of the vibrations or if the absence of vibrations within the ethereal body caused the Vehram System to no longer generate ethereal energy.

HAHA! WTF

[Coran]

VessenHopkins, I find your system interesting. I am an energy user myself and I have been for a long time. This is the first time I have heard of a system that makes use of a non-chakra circulatory system. However I am a skeptic. I'd love for this to be true (though I have heard differently from one or two sources) but the question begs, why can one only access these orbs whilst experiencing sleep paralysis? If you're experiencing sleep paralysis you can't do anything especially nothing 'esoteric' or astral. If these orbs are part of your being then you should be able to access them without going into sleep paralysis. So, any other methods of doing this?

[VessenHopkins]

One thing I would point out about sleep paralysis, also referred to as the hypnagogic-state, is that this is precisely the point from which you CAN separate, but only if the vibrations are present.  Some use alternate techniques to achieve AP, and I do not dismiss those processes.  I wish I could project without going into hypnagogia as others report, but that is not the way I developed my ability.  Much is still to be learned on the various ways in which consciousness achieves focus outside the physical body.

While in sleep paralysis, simply pull the energy from the Vehram Array into your body and you will feel the onset of the vibrational surge.  From here simply lift out.

I also think it is premature to say that the system is inaccessible from any other state as anyone with the ability to manipulate their chi should also be able to utilize this energy - but much research is still to be done in this area as well.  This is one of my main areas of focus at present.  It has only recently come to my attention that one may utilize this energy for kundalini practices and because care should be exercised in that regard, I am conducting this exploration in a slow methodical process.  What I have learned so far has been very promising and I would love to have an exchange of ideas with someone more developed in either of these areas.

One possible reason for our ability to explore this more easily from the hypnagogic-state is simply that consciousness is more focused in the ethereal wavelength than what most people (myself included) are able to garner in their waking state.

The last point I would make is that if anyone has outright dismissed this energy system, beware.  It is virtually impossible to have a valid perspective on something for which one has no experience.  I happen to think that anyone who takes the time to explore this for themselves will be able to verify it.  Keep in mind that I was not the first person to interact with this array.  That honor belongs to Robert Monroe, (the ram in Vehram) although he was not aware of a "system" comprising several points.  My first interaction with this system was with the point out to the left and this led to an unravelling of the entire system. Many others have since been able to validate it for themselves, a number of whom have posted in this forum.

[Coran]

One thing I would point out about sleep paralysis, also referred to as the hypnagogic-state, is that this is precisely the point from which you CAN separate, but only if the vibrations are present.  Some use alternate techniques to achieve AP, and I do not dismiss those processes.  I wish I could project without going into hypnagogia as others report, but that is not the way I developed my ability.  Much is still to be learned on the various ways in which consciousness achieves focus outside the physical body.

While in sleep paralysis, simply pull the energy from the Vehram Array into your body and you will feel the onset of the vibrational surge.  From here simply lift out.

I also think it is premature to say that the system is inaccessible from any other state as anyone with the ability to manipulate their chi should also be able to utilize this energy - but much research is still to be done in this area as well.  This is one of my main areas of focus at present.  It has only recently come to my attention that one may utilize this energy for kundalini practices and because care should be exercised in that regard, I am conducting this exploration in a slow methodical process.  What I have learned so far has been very promising and I would love to have an exchange of ideas with someone more developed in either of these areas.

One possible reason for our ability to explore this more easily from the hypnagogic-state is simply that consciousness is more focused in the ethereal wavelength than what most people (myself included) are able to garner in their waking state.

The last point I would make is that if anyone has outright dismissed this energy system, beware.  It is virtually impossible to have a valid perspective on something for which one has no experience.  I happen to think that anyone who takes the time to explore this for themselves will be able to verify it.  Keep in mind that I was not the first person to interact with this array.  That honor belongs to Robert Monroe, (the ram in Vehram) although he was not aware of a "system" comprising several points.  My first interaction with this system was with the point out to the left and this led to an unravelling of the entire system. Many others have since been able to validate it for themselves, a number of whom have posted in this forum.

Interesting. I would like to work with you on this. I am quite knowledgeable on energy and even developed my own system. Also I developed the ability to have conscious astral sight, which I teach as well. I have been looking for other energy systems to increase my knowledge, fill in the blanks so to speak. I yearn to learn more and if this system of yours is valid, I am very very interested. Pm me.

[iNNERvOYAGER]

I think we all agree  that at least the science of mathematics in the form of geometry extends to ethereal levels of existence in the form of design.

I like to see theories and ideas about the possibility that some of the law of physics may apply to other dimensions.

For example, why to we have a semblance to gravity in RTZ? Do we move because we can mentally warp space that is easier to manipulate but still according to a law of physics similar to this world?

OFF topic, sorry.

Coran, I don't understand your avatar. Appears to be history revisionist propaganda. Hitler was a confirmed meth addict based on historical evidence and evident in his erratic behavior and monumental blunders leading to his defeat. So in some respect, thank god for Methamphetamine.

[T.L.]

The last point I would make is that if anyone has outright dismissed this energy system, beware.  It is virtually impossible to have a valid perspective on something for which one has no experience.  I happen to think that anyone who takes the time to explore this for themselves will be able to verify it.  Keep in mind that I was not the first person to interact with this array.  That honor belongs to Robert Monroe, (the ram in Vehram) although he was not aware of a "system" comprising several points.  My first interaction with this system was with the point out to the left and this led to an unravelling of the entire system. Many others have since been able to validate it for themselves, a number of whom have posted in this forum.

I don't know if that statement had anything to do with what I said earlier about being hesitant to even think about a system that can lock someone's perspective and conclusions in a box of a belief system. Here's the problem though. I have had a ton of obes and I have done a lot of local investigating, including the vicinity of my physical body and was able to observe my "second body" from a third person perspective. The only odd thing I noticed from doing the latter was I had different coloured check board patterns all over but especially on the arms (none on the head). The head was blue with an odd geometrical pattern that involved what appeared to be small yellow lotus flowers. Nothing up above the body, nothing to the sides, nothing but the ground below. There were no energy "spheres" to be seen. What you suggest reminds me of the debate about the silver cord. I tend to remain objective while out, I don't know how but I maintain that ability I just report exactly what I see when I write down the experience. Since I hold no belief about the silver cord, I do not see one. Those who believe in the silver cord do see one. I hope you are getting the point. A good question would be what about the very first person to  see the silver cord, since no one suggested to that person it existed why did he/she see it? My answer in this case was that the person most likely believed there had to be some kind of connection between the "soul" and the physical body, hence their subconscious mind made visual what they expected had to exist.

   It seems more of a psychological need of the people that experience it, to know that they are not "cut off" from their physical counterpart. As for the silver cord belief all that it does to people is to limit their perspective and their conclusions, not to mention their fun for fear of stretching it or severing it in some fashion would surely spell their demise. Also the being "pulled back by the cord" experiences in which is also a way this belief limits a person in their experience. Along with beliefs come dogma, eventually and dogma just holds people back. So you seeing and feeling the energy spheres around the body could be just as relevant as someone seeing and feeling their supposed silver cord. Also now when you tell people about this array of energy spheres you are in a way creating this belief in people, so when they look for it they will surely find it because they expected to because their subconscious will create it for them. I'm not trying to seem rude but I'm just going off what I see for myself when I'm out, and I've never seen any such thing sorry to say. That is not to say it does not exist because since you have created it now it does for yourself and whomever believes it will be there. It's almost like the believe system of heaven or hell, since it is believed to exist by people hence it does exist but to me represents nothing more than a false existence. Anyway good luck.

[Lighten]

You put that much more politely than I did.

[VessenHopkins]

T.L. You make several important points that I myself struggled with in the early years.  Belief does not preclude one reality from another (although it may create a reality)  On some level, we have to realize that there is a set of non-subjective principles that are responsible for our existence in the physical realm. But, the original question remained, how did I know that my own experience was real?

The realization came that hallucination could not universally prescribe to "non-subjective" principles.  The laws of thermodynamics are pre-defined and because they are established, you have to ask how an ethereal phenomenon could adhere to a series of strict laws if it were merely a hallucination?

Since I had no prior experience, and no special beliefs regarding an external power source, I am able to take the experience as it occured and then ask why each of the unique and specific events did occur.  When I do this, I come back to an already scientifically defined set of principles that describe not only the behavior of this external array, but traditional, physics-based, electromagnetic-waveforms.  Since this occurs however on an ethereal level, it must be looked at through the lense of an etheeal phenomenon.  However, because the laws are generally unknown to the public (requiring special scientific knowledge) there is no reason to expect that hallucination would allow the universal manifestation of these universal prinicples.

The jolt was one of the really completely unexpected events.  It is impossible to know that such an event is going to happen because the extremely powerful flow of energy is well outside one's realm of experience. It was so much stronger than anything I had ever felt before.  An electric socket does not do justice.  Yet electricity flows because of polarities and the laws governing electrons, protons and atoms.  Electricity must also flow through a conduit and the Vehram energy uses the ethereal body as a conduit.  Why would this occur to anyone who touches it, unless it is a universal response which can only be the result of a "real" set of principles - a real stimulus?

So in the case of the Vehram Array, you have an ethereal energy being generated at precise locations that are universal for all of us, each orb being the location of an ambiant radiation which emantes from a central core of ethereal plasma.  (Plasma is also described by non-subjective scientific principles and are mirrored by the behavior of the central core as described by the interaction between it and the ethereal body - the jolt- a plasma is always ionized and therefore has a polarity)

The unique reaction of making contact with these points is a universal reaction of extreme ethereal shock of such an intensity that one cannot maintain contact with the source.  The forced reaction of withdrawl of the ethereal appendage from the vicinity of the source is a non-subjective event.  Hallucination would not allow for universal display of these uncontrollable aspects of this energy system.

The title of this thread was stated as such because the Vehram Energy System does offer validation in the case for anyone who has no prior knowledge, like myself, upon the initial contact. And in my case, I have been able to describe these events.  Taken in full context of the specificity of the events that followed, we can see that they adhere to a strict set of pre-defined principles.  For this reason, I had to preclude the event from being the product of hallucination.

So when I come to a conclusion that the event was real, it is the same thing to say that my separation from my body was not a hallucination.

I know this is a really complex subject matter and while I do have the benefit of having lived the experience, it still took literally years for me to wrap my own head around it.

I just always come back to the question, "How could a universal set of principles be the product of hallucination?" I don't think it can be.  I don't think others would get the "vibrational surge" and that this would serve specifically to enable them to separate, in conjunction with the other universal qualities as described unless this is in fact a "real" phenomenon.

Much scientific testing obviously still needs to be done.  this discovery is practically an unknown, but hopefully sharing this information, and others being able to experience this energy system, will help that process along.  The scientific community should be listening and eventually will take note.  But what I want to say to everyone is, "this is how it can be verified."

Again, explore the site at www.vehram.com - It is much more detailed and the information is freely posted. For those that have and continue to support the project, you make it possible to share this in the first place.

[T.L.]

Well here is one illustration of what I am talking about. A quote from your website

Adhering to unique and specific scientific principles that are independently observable, and non-subjective, the Vehram array cannot simply be dismissed as a figment of the imagination.

In my out of body experiences (which are plenty) I have never seen any balls of energy around myself or my physical body. I even went so far as waving my hands over my own physical body before, there wasn't anything. However you are saying that these "arrays of balls, energy balls" are non-subjective, which is obviously not true. If they were non subjective I would have come into contact with them on some occasion which I have not. So by definition it is subjective as not all experience it. Subjective: pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. You can't argue that it is not otherwise I would not be here arguing with you about it, and I myself would have experienced it. I did take the time out though to read through your website, and watch a video you posted on youtube which shows a physical body with these balls of energy around it, then the body is zapped by them, then the secondary body rises out.

   The secondary body flies away and the energy balls stick by the physical body. Why would the energy balls stick by the physical body, even that notion to me (if they objectively existed) makes no sense. Unless you are saying that these electrical/energy balls you say are responsible for the vibrations are a physical phenomena? It seems to me that you seem to think that the vibrations one would experience before separation are of a physical kind of shock/or electrical output. Once again in my experience it does not seem that way, it seems the exact opposite. Sure it may feel like a shock but another way to put it is that it feels like a mental kind of energetic movement. I also get them while up and walking around, as long as I focus my attention away from my physical self, for instance if I am thinking about a previous obe I start to get the vibrations. Which by the way are always centered in my head and neck area (never any further down). Even before separation the vibrations are just centered in my head area, and neck.

   I believe I mentioned this before in this forum. They are just something I experience there, not full body vibrations like I hear others talking about. Which is another point against what you are saying. You mention that the vibrations through laws of thermodynamics would affect or seek balance throughout the body, mine do not. Which just shows me another subjective point about what you call your system. I'm not just saying that either, you can go back to other comments from days or weeks ago, and you will see where I had said that about the vibrations I get. It was in a thread where others like greytraveller stated he does no longer go through vibrations before separation. Anyway I am getting off the point here. You have to see where I am coming from, everything you point out that is objective to you, seems certainly subjective to me because I do not experience what you talk about. Of course I am not saying give up on your ideas though, perhaps you will end up stumbling across something that will lead to a new discovery that will be able to be scientifically proven. Even if you just find new methods of exit that would be something.

[Lighten]

On some level, we have to realize that there is a set of non-subjective principles that are responsible for our existence in the physical realm

No we don't. Besides "I think therefore I am", there is nothing that we can or should realize.

you have to ask how an ethereal phenomenon could adhere to a series of strict laws if it were merely a hallucination?

I could pose the same question about all hallucinogenic drugs. Why do we all experience some of the same symptoms and hallucinations. The same can be said about dreams, we all experience similar scenarios or situations. So you see, hallucinations can adhere to "strict laws".


How do you even know an ethereal body exists? How do you know any of the things you are talking about. You don't, you just say them as fact when they aren't even as good as theory.

[VessenHopkins]

There are a specific set of confirmation steps to go through.  Be assured I make no claim that you would automatically feel this if you reach randomly outside the body. You would need to be in a state of partial separation as I was in during the initial encounter and reach toward the location of these energy centers.  The effects of coming into contact with this array are universal and predefined - in this respect they are indeed non-subjective.

The spheres are located in specific relation to the physical/ethereal body.  Because they are an ethereal manifestation, I tend to lean toward the idea that they remain a part of the ethereal anatomy.  However, there is no hard data to confirm this.  Confirmation has only occurred from the state of "partial separation" in which consciousness is still inside the physical body and thereby "grounded" in physical reality.  However, since the locations are outside the body, the aspect of separation of the ethereal and consciousness' ability to perceive beyond the physical body is clearly demonstrated. 

One obstacle we have to contend with is the fact that once we have separated, consciousness often finds itself in an alternate dimension.  We often slip into a much more spiritual reality and even experiences that seem physical are marred by inconsistencies with reality, such as the dresser being on the wrong side of the room, doors existing where none really do, etc.

Once out of phase with the physical/ethereal there is no reason to suggest that one would still be able to detect the array.

Also what you describe in your waking state with regard to the vibrations would appear to reflect your activated chakras and would also explain your ability to project from a waking state.

Lighten - My point about non-subjective laws that govern our existence in physical reality is based on the idea that we are in a realm with established laws that matter not whether we believe in them.  We have to allow for a specific set of factors that account for our ability to be in the physical.  Whatever these principles are, they are pre-established, ergo, non-subjective.  The fact that we are interfaced with the physical means that we must be aligning ourselves with these physics-based principles.  I happen to think physics is governed by the ethereal and it is on this level that consciousness is in actuality bound.

Hallucinogenic drugs are chemicals that effect specific areas of the brain and would thereby lead to similar experiences.  Dreams are based on memories of commonly experienced phenomenon.  We do not have mirror image dreams.  For example, I have never shared your dreams nor you mine.  But if we did find ourselves in the exact same dream and could describe to each other what occurred, we might conclude that we were in the same reality during that experience.  How else could we have had the same dream - short of esp, etc?

I know the ethereal body exists because of the unique reaction that occurs when contact is made between the ethereal body and the Vehram Array.  The energy flows as a result of direct contact with the inner core of a Vehram energy center.  This would not happen if there were "nothing" there.  Rather the ethereal body, in order to act as a conduit, must be a "real" manifestation.

Thank you both for an insightful and thought-provoking discussion.  You raise intelligent questions that should be asked and indeed must be answered.  I don't think anyone has a monopoly on the truth, certainly not myself.  There is much still to be learned about this energy system.  It is not understood, for example, why such a system would even manifest – what generates this power?  All I can say at this point is that it is there and others have verified this.  The behavior of this system are universal for anyone who comes in contact with it and these behaviors represent a non-subjective phenomenon that others can utilize to prove there own experiences of separation do occur in real space and time.

[T.L.]

"We do not have mirror image dreams.  For example, I have never shared your dreams nor you mine."

This is not really correct though. I used to have a dream in which I went to put in one of my contacts and instead of it being the regular size, it was a massive contact. Years later I was reading a book in which the author describes a dream [to make a point] in which he goes to put in one of his contacts and it's a massive contact. So it is possible to have the same dream as another person. Im sure it doesn't happen too often though, but it is possible.

[VessenHopkins]

"We do not have mirror image dreams.  For example, I have never shared your dreams nor you mine."

This is not really correct though. I used to have a dream in which I went to put in one of my contacts and instead of it being the regular size, it was a massive contact. Years later I was reading a book in which the author describes a dream [to make a point] in which he goes to put in one of his contacts and it's a massive contact. So it is possible to have the same dream as another person. Im sure it doesn't happen too often though, but it is possible.

The point was that we do not find ourselves in the same dream as another person.  You were not in his dream when the event occurred, you both simply have similar experiences to draw upon.  This doesn't mean btw that your dream was just an illusion either.  It may have manifested on some real level of reality.  When you do find yourself in another person's dream and can describe the exact same events, we are presented with compelling evidence that you were in not only the same reality, but that the reality was indeed a real manifestation.  No real way to prove it wasn't esp, though...

[Lighten]

My point about non-subjective laws that govern our existence in physical reality is based on the idea that we are in a realm with established laws that matter not whether we believe in them.

Um, it only matters if we believe in them, and the physical reality does not have established laws. I can give you hundreds of examples of prof of this concept.

Hallucinogenic drugs are chemicals that effect specific areas of the brain and would thereby lead to similar experiences.  Dreams are based on memories of commonly experienced phenomenon.  We do not have mirror image dreams.

exactly my point. Nor do we have mirror image OBE's. And just as hallucinogenic drugs effect specific areas of the brain and lead to similar experiences, so can the OBE. Just as dreams are not mirror images of one another, neither are OBE's.

I know the ethereal body exists because of the unique reaction that occurs when contact is made between the ethereal body and the Vehram Array.  The energy flows as a result of direct contact with the inner core of a Vehram energy center.  This would not happen if there were "nothing" there.  Rather the ethereal body, in order to act as a conduit, must be a "real" manifestation.

Yea, a real manifestation of your mind....or imagination.

yes, lets keep this going. Its a lot of laughs reading your comments and easily proving them to be nonsense.

[VessenHopkins]

Um, it only matters if we believe in them, and the physical reality does not have established laws. I can give you hundreds of examples of prof of this concept.

Lighten - I am a little surprised by your dismissal of established laws of physics and the claim that these depend on whether we believe in them or not.  Thermodynamics are well established laws and form the basis of modern science, whether one thinks so or not.  Gravity exists and so does radiant energy.  Electricity is also a "real" phenomenon, whether you believe in it or not, and the laws governing all of these phenomeon are non-subjective, ergo, they exist for all of us regardless of belief.  I believe there are far more examples of this fact than what you claim can be stated otherwise.  I would love to hear your hundreds of examples, nonetheless.

You also ignore the basic point being made that the principles involved in the case of the Vehram Array are pre-defined.  This is what makes them non-subjective, and therefore independently testable - unlike much of the other events that take place in the astral. The independent confirmation of these principles could not occur under a hallucinatory experience because there is no fundamental basis to generate these events.  An argument otherwise is simply ignorant, but should include exactly what that basis might be if you want others to take it seriously.  The logical conclusion is that only if the stimulus behind this energy system is real would people be able to independently observe its specific principles.

Without having any real experience in this matter, coupled with a relative lack of scientific knowledge, your position of categorically dismissive comments is simply not compelling.  Unfortunately, they serve only to add confusion where none need exist.  The concepts are quite simple as stated.  If you can disprove them, then by all means please ellaborate.  We all want to see where the error in logic exists.  So far you have only demonstrated unfounded bias, a willingness to ignore the ideas being presented, and baseless non-sensical arguments. This would appear to be typical of your other posts as well. 

[interception]

It is a theory, not a perfect one sure, but it is different. I for one like fresh ideas.

If I came here talking about some fresh new energy system, I sincerely hope I would not have been dismissively hammered like this.

It is easy to shoot down ideas. I would think one need to have an opposing theory before hammering somebody else's, would at least make for an interesting discussion.

[Lighten]

Its interesting that you claim to know something about Quantum physics yet you don't what I'm talking about.

Just know that you know nothing.