what exists without consciousness?

[bjb1234]

Hello,

Ive been thinking again lol!

Basically Ive been thinking about what the universe actually is without life and consciousness aka a intelligent mind to observe it and experience it.

Is it just a load of vibrating particles?  Vibrating at different frequencies?

I mean....  what really exists without life?

Its this question which keeps me believing that there is more to the universe and life than just some random chemical accident in the universe that somehow learnt how to duplicate itself and then evolve from there to what we have now.  I just cant believe the idea life is some sort of accident, science has no idea where life came from, sure there are plenty of ideas out there but none of them really answer or prove anything.  It maybe one of those things we never know.

With the way our planet is going, life as we know it may not be around for much longer.

Peace guys, where ever you are in the world, what ever color, country, religion...   peace and i love you

[CFTraveler]

Peace right back at you.
Whether life is consciousness or not, whether it'll last forever, life is now, so revel in the 'is'-ness of it.  Revel in it now- and you have eternity.
(that's what happens when I ponder-lol). 

[catmeow]

According to quantum mechanics, all possible alternatives exist at the same time until consciously observed. The act of observing causes one of these infinite alternatives to be selected.  So in a sense, conscious observers are required to give form to the universe. Without conscious observers, there is chaos. With conscious observers there is order.  So in a sense, the physical universe requires "us" to give it form and order.

This particular model assumes that there is a "real" physical quantum universe, which is separate from "us" and that we actually shape it by observing it.  Well that's one theory, but no one knows and no one can ever prove that there actually is a separate "real" universe.  The only thing we can be sure about is that "we" exist.  (Well to be precise the only thing I can be sure about is that "I" exist, but for the sake of argument I'm willing to accept that "you" all exist too).

I'm not willing to accept that the physical universe necessarily exists.  I suspect that the universe does not actually "exist" anywhere at all, it is simply created by our collective minds.  It's a bit like a big dream, which we all live in and agree upon.  Without consciousness then, nothing exists.  With consciousness, there appears to be an objective, solid, real, physical universe.  But this universe is actually an illusion.  The only thing which actually exists is "us", and what we experience as a real objective universe is just an illusion, which we all agree upon, on a collective subconscious level. 

[slipknot0129]

i feel like the only thing that i am sure exists is me, things outside of me could be fake.

[Tongo]

According to quantum mechanics, all possible alternatives exist at the same time until consciously observed.


What do you mean by this please. Has this actually been explained to be a possibility with quantom mechanics? do you have any links about this in particular?

[Shee-un]

Nothing exists without consciousness. Everything is conscious, vibrating Energy.

[CFTraveler]

Nothing exists without consciousness. Everything is a conscious, vibrating Energy.

Do you mean that you believe that energy is conscious, or that vibration presupposes consciousness?

[Shee-un]

Do you mean that you believe that energy is conscious, or that vibration presupposes consciousness?

Energy is consciousness and consciousness is Energy, there is no separation at all. God is the Source of consciousness\Energy, not vibration.

[catmeow]

Hi Tongo

An electron (or photon) can pass through two parallel slits (side by side) at the same time. In other words it is in two places at the same time (impossible!).  That is, unless we try to observe which slit it passed through. In this case it "chooses" one slit or the other.  The act of observing the electron stops it from existing in both places at the same time (weird!!!!)

Excellent video (watch this!) -->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

A different experiment which proves that a photon exists in two different places at the same time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpQABLRCU_0

In actual fact quantum mechanics states that a photon takes ALL possible paths between two points at the same time (weird again).

Layman's guide to quantum weirdness:

http://www.higgo.com/quantum/laymans.htm

There is a lot of stuff in Wikipedia about the Schrodinger wave function, the collapse of the wave function, the Copenhagen Interpretation the Many Worlds Interpretation etc etc... but the video above is good fun and easy to understand..

[catmeow]

i feel like the only thing that i am sure exists is me, things outside of me could be fake.

This is called solipsism a type of idealism which is itself a type of monism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monism

Nothing exists without consciousness. Everything is conscious, vibrating Energy.

This is monism

The alternative to monism is philosophical dualism which is the idea that there is an objective physical universe and that mind is separate from it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_%28philosophy_of_mind%29

I go with monism but fall short of solipsism...

There is no way of proving which of these philosophies is "correct", other than subjective direct experience (ie mystical experience).

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Very interesting topic guys.  I'm so into this kind of stuff - which means I've read a lot about it and had several discussions with people.

My final analysis is that there is an intelligent "is-ness" that exists outside consciousness.  This is-ness is everything there ever was and is, but needs to experience 'life' to know itself.  It creates neutral energy, assumes and splits itself into several consciousnesses (ref: Mobius Ring method in Sacred Geometry).  Consciousnesses create the right environment for this process, i.e. physical life.  The result being life through reincarnation in the many universes, galaxies and solar systems as we know it today.  Our planet is one of many, our physical form (humaniod) is one of many (there are also non-physical worlds - mental or emotional). 

(So my friend, you have nothing to worry about.  If our planet dies, our consciousnesses can continue their evolution on another planet!)

My conclusion is that there is so much more to is-ness/consciousness/energy/creation that we as a human race, can grasp at this time.  But asking, reading, discussing, and learning is certainly the right way about it to help us 'know' ourselves, and go back to where we came from - the is-ness.

[healixe]

erm only read the first post.

i think the universe has conciousness but on a interlect far above are own therefore we can not communicate.

[Shee-un]

...there is an objective physical universe and that mind is separate from it

I don't think in this way. I suppose that Mind shapes our physical reality in every possible respect.

[Colden]

The old sayig about when a tree falls in the woods with no observer does it make a sound? The answer is no it doesn't. If you recall sound it just vibrational energy. Waves so to speak. And without the senses (our ears) to transduce this energy it does not make a sound it is nothing less than waves of energy in the air. This makes me believe that our world is what is percieved by us. Remember that sensing comes before perception. Imagine taking away all of our senses sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste and living behind our closed eye lids. We would then greatly develop our sixth sense that so many forget how to use. Every time I project I get rid of all my senses except my sixth sense. I live and learn behind my closed eye lids.

[catmeow]

I don't think in this way. I suppose that Mind shapes our physical reality in every possible respect.

Yes that's my take too, although as I said, we can never directly prove it. It's called "idealism".  There has been a HUGE amount of philosophical thinking on this subject going back thousands of years and it's called the "mind-body" problem, ie are the mind and body separate (dualism) or; does the body create the mind through bio-neurolgical processes (materialistic monism) or; does the mind create the universe (idealistic monism)

We have

dualism: mind and body are separate
monism (idealism): all is mind
monism (materialism): all is physical

Sorry to keep quoting Wikepdia but it's quite a good resource:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mind#The_mind-body_problem

Oh. there's an even more extreme materialistic view called "eliminative materialism" which does not recognise that the mind actually exists at all, ie we do not have self-awareness at all, it's just that we are programmed to think that we do.

[Shee-un]

Anyway, I prefer idealistic monism's views.

[CFTraveler]

Anyway, I prefer idealistic monism's views.

Me too.

[Aquarious]

I think all atoms are conscious and Time is the illusion of atoms seeking conscious perfection. In other words, us humans aren't perfect, hence, the reason we die.

I don't believe that you will experience anything when you die because the collection of Atoms that are inherited to make your physical and mental persona wont exist in the same format. It really is that simple.
Just as the dolphin is more intelligent than a goldfish and we are more intelligent than a dolphin there is undoubtedly more intelligent life forms than us in this universe that have a better idea of what consciousness is.

There is nothing that can point to hard evidence to suggest we have some sort of spirit, soul or consciousness that lives on after we die.

We the humans  are the most intelligent species on this planet but thats as far as our intelligence goes. We can't agree on religion, we live on different wealth scales, we discriminate on colour and we justify murder within war. Pretty stupid little bundles of conscious atoms if you ask me... Thats why atoms move on, giving the illusion of time as we age while the world spins.

[catmeow]

Fair points Aquarius.  When it comes to belief that life survives physical death there is very little actual hard evidence. Eventually it comes down to what your belief system is.  Some people have exceedingly convincing personal experiences (mystical experiences) which are convincing to them beyond all shadow of a doubt that they have an immortal "soul",  But this does not constitute proof.

It's an interesting notion that all atoms have consciousness.  This means that rocks are conscious. I've toyed with this notion myself.  But personally I think I prefer the idea that atoms do not actually exist at all.  In fact nothing exists, just consciousness.  Consciousness creates the illusion that atoms exist, but really they don't....

But we can go around arguing this forever (as philosphers have done for a couple of thousand of years) and never reach a conclusion.  It's interesting to hear your ideas though.  I can neither agree with you nor disagree.  But to me the idea that consciousness is all, is the simplest explanation.

[Aquarious]

Thanks for being diplomatic.

I'm not up for being argumentative or going round in circles but I'll just expand on what I mean by 'little bundles of consciousness.'

Rocks do consist of conscious atoms that are aware of the climate in which they shape and erode or mold to the rest of the earth. The fact that there is an electrical charge when a human, an ant, a gush of wind or a grain of sand comes into contact with the rock is a presentation of its consciousness. Just because it doesn't posses an intelligent form (like us humans) doesn't mean it isn't conscious. It forms part of a collection of consciousness which, in turn, make up the fire, water, wind and earth of our planet. And yes our planet is conscious and is aware of itself.

The atoms in our feet are aware of the atoms in our bones which are aware of the atoms in our blood which react to the atoms of the food we consume. The atoms in our ears are so finely tuned that they can measure the weight of the atoms in our eye-lashes when we blink. All the different components in our anatomy work together as a whole to make one overall conscious being that interacts with other conscious atoms within its radar.

But on a bigger scale, the seas are aware of the moon the moon is aware of the Earth and the Earth is aware of other planets and of course they are all aware of the strongest collection of atoms, the sun. The sun is aware of other stars in the galaxy and the galaxys are aware of each other. Galaxy's are born and die all the time and I think it is the death and re-birth of the galaxys that signify the movement of atoms which comeplete the illusion of time.

If you believe that consciousness gives the illusion that atoms exist then thats fine but it needs to be followed by a reason that consciousness percieves atoms in a notion of TIME and why consciousness arranges atoms in bundles of objects that age or decay in accordance with objective, measurable time. In other words... where does TIME fit into your notion of 'Only I'm conscious?'   

[catmeow]

Hi Aquarious

I too am not keen on long rambling pointless arguments.....    but I'm being honest when I say I can't disagree with you, because I can't falsify your position

Also I haven't made my mind up on this subject, so I am not particularly precious about it.  The reason I haven't made my mind up is that this is a problem which can not be solved, and better minds than mine have addressed all of the issues through the millenia.

The position I am most comfortable with is called "monism".  Monism is the concept that mind and matter are in fact both made of the same type of substance.  That substance could be matter or it could be mind stuff.  (I tend to think its mind stuff).

But most people (apparently) think that "the substance" is matter.  They think that the whole universe is made up of matter, and that matter has evolved into biological living assemblies (like dogs, cats, ants,  humans etc) and that these biological entities have a "brain" which is capable of "consciousness".  This is called materialistic monism.  Why such a huge physical universe should exist at all, well, nobody knows.

A minority (apparently), including me, think that "the substance" is mind.  In other words there are no quarks, neutrons, protons, atoms, molecules, solids, liquids, gases, land, sea, planets, moons, stars and galaxies.  All of these things are an illusion.  The illusion is perfect.  There are many "minds" which all co-operate in this illusion, by all agreeing on the "laws of the universe" including all of the particles I have mentioned, plus space and time itself.   This big illusion allows us all to interact in what is effectively a "virtual world".  This is called idealistic monism.  Once again, why this should exist at all is anybody's guess.

A third group of people think that mind and matter are two different things (dualism).  They think that there is a huge physical universe of atoms and molecules and stuff, and there is also a pool of individual consciousnesses (souls?).  These consciousnesses make use of matter in order to express themselves.  Once again, why this should all exist is a big mystery.

We can't resolve between these three points of view, because none of them can be falsified.

I'm not exactly sure where your philosophy fits into this monistic / dualistic thing.  but I suspect you're a dualist because you consider atoms to be real, and you also consider consciousness to be real, and for these two things to be separate from each other (?).  Sorry if I got this wrong, in which case I misunderstood.  Maybe you think that atoms are consciousness in which case you're a "materialistic monist" (well... of sorts)

Now I'll to try to answer your questions:

If you believe that consciousness gives the illusion that atoms exist then thats fine but it needs to be followed by a reason that consciousness percieves atoms in a notion of TIME and why consciousness arranges atoms in bundles of objects that age or decay in accordance with objective, measurable time. In other words... where does TIME fit into your notion of 'Only I'm conscious?'

Firstly, I'll correct a misunderstanding.  I don't think "Only I'm conscious".  That's called solipsism.  I think "Only We are conscious".  In other words there are a lot of consciousnesses.

Now as to why all of these consciousnesses arrange atoms into objects which decay and follow a strict set of rules, and that there is also this strange thing called "time".  The reason we do this is simply to create a coherent, stable "virtual world" in which we can all appear to live, and hence to interact.  I can't say why this imaginary virtual world has the actual physical laws of space and time which we have chosen.  I would be a God if I knew the reason for that.  (Incidentally physicists are now saying that there may be an infinite number of physical universes, each with a different set of laws of physics.)

The "astral world" would be a second "virtual reality" which we create.  Now in this second virtual reality, all of the laws are different.  Time and space are different in the astral. But once again the astral is a consistent environment in which all consciousnesses can interact. 

And then perhaps there are other worlds (ie other "focuses of consciousness") in which we can interact.

The only thing I can say with any certainty is that "I" exist (solipsism).  It is not clear that anything else at all exists; atoms, planets, space time etc.  But I do know that "I" exist.  I am willing to believe that "you" exist also and that everyone else exists too.  But there is no need to assume that there is anything beyond this, no need to assume that there is an objective physical universe.

I think my view passes Occam's Razor. Occam's razor is the principle that the theory which makes the fewest assumptions is likely to be the correct one.  In my view, there is no need for atoms etc.  All that there needs to be is consciousness.

Now let me ask you a question.  I'm quite amenable to the notion that every single atom has consciousness.  You say that all of the atoms of my body combine together into an aggregate consciousness.  Also that the atoms in a rock combine together into an aggregate consciousness.  Also that all the atoms in the sun combine into an aggregate consciousness.

This is a great idea, and I like it.  But where and how do you define the boundaries at which "aggregate consciousness" appears?  Does every organ in my body have an aggregate consciousness and do all of these organic consciousnesses aggregate into "me" and do all of the "me's" in the world aggregate into a big world consciousness etc?  There must be an infinite permutation of such aggregations, each with it's own "aggregate consciousness".  is that how you see it?

Also are you a dualist or a monist?

[CFTraveler]

Monist-check.

[Aquarious]

Thanks for delivering that so clear. It takes some talent to explain complicated thinking in Laymans terms.

Im a dualist of sorts because I believe that mind and matter exsist seperately but think that mind is a product of conscious atoms projecting their experience. The mind, the soul or the persona (whatever you want to call it) is only an objective trait that humans and animals posses.

Conscious 'bundles' of atoms don't all posses minds. A mind is a state of intelligence. I believe there are an infinite amount of conscious states but I'll try and keep it as simple as possible.

- Rocks, Earth, Space... Still consciousness
- Plants, Trees, Water, Fire, Planets, Stars... Standing Consciousness
- Animals... Moving consciousness
- Humans... Reflective consciousness

Conscious atoms bind to other atoms with equal 'intelligence' The more intelligent the atom, the more likely it is to manipulate other bundles of atoms, either for survival or co-exsistence. For example, Plants and trees can manipulate the Earth and Space by growing and reproducing. Animals can manipulate Plants by simply eating or killing them. And Humans can manipulate Animals, Plants and Space to make machinery, food and medicine amongst many other things.

Now, since atoms make up basically everything, its not as simple as 'x' bundle of consciousness is more intelligent than 'Y' because if a large number of atoms with equal intelligence congregate then it can have control over a smaller number of more intelligent atoms. For example, if a human walked out in 150mph winds, its likely that the winds will effect the human. But, the bundles of conscious atoms that congregate to make a human, have the intelligence to manipulate other atoms (like building a brick wall) to keep their bundle secure.

I believe that the mind is... now Im trying to find the right wording for this... The result of bundles of consciousness forming an overall input and output device in order to navigate through other atoms securly. Its how we interpret other conscious atoms all around us. Call that an illusion if you will but I believe that ALL atoms and the whole universe posseses consciousness.

Where are the aggregate boundaries? Well this is consciousness we're talking about here so its shape is everything and nothing we can imagine. If I just say that conscious atoms know and have their place in the universe based on related intelliegence then that may make it clearer. For example, The atoms that make up the liver or heart, know their function and are in communication with atoms that make up the blood and the brain in order for the combined bundle (the human) to survive. I believe there is like a radar of consciousness that accompany bundles of atoms as space is too much of a giant 'bundle of atoms' to manipulate.

When individual intelligent bundles of atoms communicate, they can interact to make a stronger presence of consciousness and can work in sink together. Like when animals hunt in packs or when humans build a football stadium... Its a new wave of manipulation.

So to sum up... Consciousness does have an aggregate and the bounderies can only be measured like that of a radar but what its form is exactly, isn't within our scope of thinking. And I beleive the mind is how we interpret other conscious atoms around us, with only Animals and Humans possesing a mind on different levels of intelligence. There may be more intelligent atoms of consciousness that dont use 'a mind' to interpret other atoms but something more sophisticated that can even manipulate us.

I think the whole idea of a soul etc... Is because humans can't picture a format that uses something more sophisticated than the mind to manipulate a material exsistence. Therefore, its easy to assume we are perfect. But I don't think we are perfect due to the way we continually evolve and some of the ways we inflict pain and misery on one-another.

But the question of 'Why' all this will probably always be asked and never be solved.

[catmeow]

Thanks Aquarious for the info.  I think I'm beginning to get a feeling for what you are saying. 

I'm curious as to whether you think a person's reflective self-consciousnes changes in some way if he (or she), for example, has a liver transplant. Does a liver transplant change the person? I think you're saying that it does, and I think you're saying that the seat of human consciousness is not confined to the brain.  There are many documented cases of people receiving organ transplants, and having their personality changed.  For example, I heard of a case where someone received a kidney transplant and started painting.  The person who donated the kidney had been an artist.

I saw the healer Matthew Manning a couple of years ago and we talked about this.  He said that a few of his clients had reported this exact type of thing to him and he was really quite intrigued by it.  So I've heard this second-hand, but that's still much better than reading stories in the media.

Thanks for your feedback, I will ponder it.

[slipknot0129]

this life is a hallucination.