Who created the Astral Planes

[kurtykurt42]

Every time I have AP and found a spirit guide I have asked them this question and they never gave me a direct answer. Maybe they don't know or maybe it's a secret. Where the astral planes created by beings or created naturally. In my experience anything that is flat and made of small squares is usually man made. Anyone know the answer?

[Steel Hawk]

Every time I have AP and found a spirit guide I have asked them this question and they never gave me a direct answer. Maybe they don't know or maybe it's a secret. Where the astral planes created by beings or created naturally. In my experience anything that is flat and made of small squares is usually man made. Anyone know the answer?

Well... if everything is a thoughtform then everything that is was thought. But it might boil down to what your concepts of nature and beings are.

Who created it? Someone, somewhere did. But that someone, somewhere is no longer the same someone.

Say when you were 4 years old you created a sandcastle. And for whatever reason 40 years later the sandcastle is still there. I walk on the beach and wonder who created this sandcastle.

Suppose I can even find a picture of you at 4 years old making it, that 4 year old today is long gone as you are now 44 years old living in a mansion in a different state. No doubt you have long forgotten about that sandcastle.

If I do try to find that 4 year old I will have a hard time doing so as that 4 year old no longer exists in that form. Though perhaps there is some way to travel back or use the akashic records, even so I don't think I would be able to comprehend the concepts that would be revealed.

[kurtykurt42]

Well... if everything is a thoughtform then everything that is was thought. But it might boil down to what your concepts of nature and beings are.

Are galaxies, stars and worlds thought forms? Maybe not, but they have evolved from the universal building blocks of life over billions of years. Perhaps the other dimensions follow the same pattern.

Who created it? Someone, somewhere did. But that someone, somewhere is no longer the same someone.

How can you be certain that that someone isn't the same someone. It might not even be a someone but a group of builders, billions of years old, that travel the universe creating dimensional planes of existence.

[Alfera]

Well... if everything is a thoughtform then everything that is was thought. But it might boil down to what your concepts of nature and beings are.

Who created it? Someone, somewhere did. But that someone, somewhere is no longer the same someone.

Say when you were 4 years old you created a sandcastle. And for whatever reason 40 years later the sandcastle is still there. I walk on the beach and wonder who created this sandcastle.

Suppose I can even find a picture of you at 4 years old making it, that 4 year old today is long gone as you are now 44 years old living in a mansion in a different state. No doubt you have long forgotten about that sandcastle.

If I do try to find that 4 year old I will have a hard time doing so as that 4 year old no longer exists in that form. Though perhaps there is some way to travel back or use the akashic records, even so I don't think I would be able to comprehend the concepts that would be revealed.

well i dont think this is correct , no offense to you

i think if god created everything including us , astral planes , everything then he must be something better and since we cant even find our way in astral planes without a guide , god is the creator of astral planes!! and also the creator of this universe too
you reduced god mind to human mind
if that someone created astral planes then he created akashic records too , so god already knows everything in future , past , and now
i think god exists beyond space and time because he created space and time , so space and time might not apply for god
i think thats why god always existed and always will exist because time is meaningless to god

i think , god thinks much different than us and beyond our understanding
thats why i think god is always "fully experienced"
so god remembers every detail of that sandcastle

[Kirkland]

To me the astral plane has always been there its just our minds can't comprehend something without a start. Mind you that's just a belief I never have had an obe though I have attempted it), I just think that its a logical way of thinking about it, for instance if god created the astral planes then who created god? The big bang theory there had to be something there before the bang you would think? No matter what way you look at it something has had to exist for an infinite time to me the Astral Planes came first and has always been there. Based on quantum physics thought creates reality therefore the collective thoughts of the spirits created the world. But that's just my take on things.

[Stookie]

We all create the astral plane together, continuously changing it as we evolve. It's in a constant state of flux, always dying and being (re)born. We're not separate from it at all, it's a part of our being.

[Alfera]

To me the astral plane has always been there its just our minds can't comprehend something without a start. Mind you that's just a belief I never have had an obe though I have attempted it), I just think that its a logical way of thinking about it, for instance if god created the astral planes then who created god? The big bang theory there had to be something there before the bang you would think? No matter what way you look at it something has had to exist for an infinite time to me the Astral Planes came first and has always been there. Based on quantum physics thought creates reality therefore the collective thoughts of the spirits created the world. But that's just my take on things.

maybe everything is simulation (just like matrix) , something like a computer program then big bang theory can be easily explained

like someone right clicked with mouse and created a new document a universe out of nothing haha

[CFTraveler]

I've quoted this before, and I think it may apply here:  "God creates by extension".
If you're spiritually-minded, you'll agree with me that when it comes to creation stories, causality is not a given, because causality is a product of spacetime, and it may or may not apply.
If you are religious, then causality may be a given to you, in which case these kinds of questions only have one possible answer; but if you are something in between (like me) then nothing is sure, there may be a creator and there may not, although I like the above quote (from ACIM) because it 'sort of' covers both standpoints.

[kurtykurt42]

Everyone seems to  use the word god for everything that cant be explained because you can't argue with it. If god made the Universe and Astral Planes then who made god? Biblical theologians have taught for centuries that god is eternal. Let's consider this view logically.

   1. If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now.
   2. Something exists now.
   3. Therefore, there was never a time that absolutely nothing existed.

"There never was a time when absolutely nothing existed," is to remove the double negative and say, "There always was a time when something existed." So what has always existed? We have only two options,

  1. The material universe comprised of space, time, matter and energy.
  2. An eternal and spiritual god, who exists separately from the material universe.

If god is eternal then it is possible he created the astral planes. But if the universe is a material object with a god that was created within in it, we can conclude that god is not eternal and might not have created the astral planes.

[Alfera]

Everyone seems to  use the word god for everything that cant be explained because you can't argue with it. If god made the Universe and Astral Planes then who made god? Biblical theologians have taught for centuries that god is eternal. Let's consider this view logically.

   1. If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now.
   2. Something exists now.
   3. Therefore, there was never a time that absolutely nothing existed.

"There never was a time when absolutely nothing existed," is to remove the double negative and say, "There always was a time when something existed." So what has always existed? We have only two options,

  1. The material universe comprised of space, time, matter and energy.
  2. An eternal and spiritual god, who exists separately from the material universe.

If god is eternal then it is possible he created the astral planes. But if the universe is a material object with a god that was created within in it, we can conclude that god is not eternal and might not have created the astral planes.

if you ask who made god , lets call her mother of the god then who made mother of the god , who made grandmother of the god....
things and theories that fits well with matter , energy and astral dont fit well with god , noone made god , god is something different , really , god is mind , a really really powerful mind , infinite , this is hard to understand thats why i say god is beyond our understanding

anyway , i think these are correct :

   1. If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now.
   2. Something exists now.
   3. Therefore, there was never a time that absolutely nothing existed.

and i pick this one : 2. An eternal and spiritual god, who exists separately from the material universe.

because

if big bang theory is true , at a point universe came into existence and has not always existed , and astral planes are made of thoughts , astral planes needed someone to think 

[CFTraveler]

Everyone seems to  use the word god for everything that cant be explained because you can't argue with it. If god made the Universe and Astral Planes then who made god? Biblical theologians have taught for centuries that god is eternal. Let's consider this view logically.

The biblical God is an objectified God, but other religions see God differently, some as a being that is not 'of time', and others see God as possessing both attributes.  So the notion of God doesn't only apply to the biblical God.

   

1. If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now.

Absolutely is the indicator here.  But we don't know if there ever has been an 'absolute nothing', because the word absolute nothing precludes nonexistence.  So this would mean that if there is 'nothingness' it's not absolute.  However, and this is the thing, that doesn't mean that there is no conditional nothingness.  We just haven't found it yet.  But theoretically, there can be 'nothing', as long as it's not absolute.
   

2. Something exists now.

Depends on what you mean by 'something' and 'now.'  Something exists in time, but if you take away spacetime, does something still exist?  I'm pretty sure philosophers have demonstrated that change is the only thing that we can expect from 'the spacetime continuum', so I'd say that it's not necessarily true that something exists now.  Maybe it's 'more' accurate to say that something can only exist in the now.
   

3. Therefore, there was never a time that absolutely nothing existed.

Actually, this is accurate, because the words 'absolutely' and 'time' are mutually exclusive, however only in time can things change, and change is what defines when things begin to exist and when they stop existing.  Without time there is no beginning and no end.  So change is dependent upon time, and time only happens when there are no absolutes.

"There never was a time when absolutely nothing existed," is to remove the double negative and say, "There always was a time when something existed."

No, if you remove the double negative you get "There was a time when absolutely something existed'.  So that something only can exist in time.  So that the only thing that existed absolutely existed in time.  So the phrase is an oxymoron, because time and absolutes are mutually exclusive.  So we are left with "There was a time" and that's it.  No absolute, and no never.

So what has always existed? We have only two options,

Not really.  We have no options.

 

1. The material universe comprised of space, time, matter and energy.

Which makes it finite.
 

2. An eternal and spiritual god, who exists separately from the material universe.

Conceived of minds that can only characterize God as limited and subject to causation.

If god is eternal then it is possible he created the astral planes. But if the universe is a material object with a god that was created within in it, we can conclude that god is not eternal and might not have created the astral planes.

That's like saying: "I can only conceive of a God that did X, therefore he can only have done X."
That's linear thinking, and linear thinking is born of time and space.  However, science has shown us that time and space are not what they seem.  So why limit the concept of God to what only linear thinking can come up with?

[Alfera]

The biblical God is an objectified God, but other religions see God differently, some as a being that is not 'of time', and others see God as possessing both attributes.  So the notion of God doesn't only apply to the biblical God.

   Absolutely is the indicator here.  But we don't know if there ever has been an 'absolute nothing', because the word absolute nothing precludes nonexistence.  So this would mean that if there is 'nothingness' it's not absolute.  However, and this is the thing, that doesn't mean that there is no conditional nothingness.  We just haven't found it yet.  But theoretically, there can be 'nothing', as long as it's not absolute.

no there has never been an "absolute nothing" and i think what he says is correct , "If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now."  yes if nothing existed nothing can exist because there is nothing at all but if there is god then we can say something exists

    Depends on what you mean by 'something' and 'now.'  Something exists in time, but if you take away spacetime, does something still exist?  I'm pretty sure philosophers have demonstrated that change is the only thing that we can expect from 'the spacetime continuum', so I'd say that it's not necessarily true that something exists now.  Maybe it's 'more' accurate to say that something can only exist in the now.

if something can only exist in the now then "something exists now" must be correct too because if something can only exist in now and i know that i exist, we can say something exist now

    Actually, this is accurate, because the words 'absolutely' and 'time' are mutually exclusive, however only in time can things change, and change is what defines when things begin to exist and when they stop existing.  Without time there is no beginning and no end.  So change is dependent upon time, and time only happens when there are no absolutes.
 No, if you remove the double negative you get "There was a time when absolutely something existed'.  So that something only can exist in time.  So that the only thing that existed absolutely existed in time.  So the phrase is an oxymoron, because time and absolutes are mutually exclusive.  So we are left with "There was a time" and that's it.  No absolute, and no never. Not really.  We have no options.

i understand what he tried to say if there never has been an "absolute nothing"  then something always existed

[kurtykurt42]

 No, if you remove the double negative you get "There was a time when absolutely something existed'.  So that something only can exist in time.  So that the only thing that existed absolutely existed in time.  So the phrase is an oxymoron, because time and absolutes are mutually exclusive.  So we are left with "There was a time" and that's it.  No absolute, and no never. Not really.  We have no options.

Sorry to rain on your parade but the logic is indeed sound. In formal logic this is what they like to call modus tollens syllogism. For example,

   1. If P, then Q.
   2. Not Q.
   3. Therefore, not P.

Let me try to clarify. If there was ever a time when there was absolutely nothing in existence, then nothing would have ever come into existence. But things do exist. Therefore, since there could never have been absolutely nothing, something had to have always been in existence. That ever-existing thing is what we call god. God is the uncaused being that caused everything else to come into existence.

This is difficult for many people to understand because everything we observe in nature has a beginning. God however is in a different category. God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self sufficient, self existent.

Our universe cannot be explained any other way. It could not have created itself. It has not always existed. And it could not be created by something that itself is created.

[Steel Hawk]

My head hurts. 

[Steel Hawk]

Based on quantum physics thought creates reality therefore the collective thoughts of the spirits created the world. But that's just my take on things.

Orly? That goes with my theory...

But I'm slightly insane. To some it up: "THE UNIVERSE IS NOTHING MORE THAN A PROGRAMMED SPIRIT. A THOUGHTFORM."

That ever-existing thing is what we call god. God is the uncaused being that caused everything else to come into existence.

God doesn't have to be a individual-self-aware-all knowing being.

I view God as an ocean, and myself as a drop of water.

So is that drop of water the ocean?
Could the ocean exist with out all those drops of water?

Am I not the Son of God? And God?

Our universe cannot be explained any other way.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

NO NO NO NO NO...

You... ah.. crap. Our universe is NOTHING. If you're referring to this physical plane. It's just a grain of sand. Our universe is just a thoughtform... it's stuck in time space... it's just shaped aether rolling at a lower vibration stuck in time space... so things don't happen instantly and we get time to learn before the big leagues...

I need to write a book or something and put this together where I don't sound like a whacko.

[CFTraveler]

Kurt, you are missing my point.  Using linear logic:
1. If P, then Q.
  2. Not Q.
  3. Therefore, not P.
Makes the assumption that If P, then Q.  But if P, then Q may  not be true, then 2 and/or 3 go out the window.
Saying this about the universe makes sense because the universe shows causality in the macro world, but when you get to other ways of looking at it (that there is no causality) then the whole argument is moot.
I'm not saying the logic isn't sound, the logic is constructed to explain the world as we think it is.  But concepts do not always follow this linearity, especially when we go down to what we thought was the causal level (God)- then we can find things like
1. If P, then Q, and If P, then not Q, and have both be true.
Then what do you do?
Before you say that I don't know anything about symbolic logic or philosophy, I'm trying to say that Socrates lived in a very different reality than we do, and when it comes to assigning causality, the macro world does not translate into the micro world, and the micro world appears to be closer to what we're talking about, because it describes the essence of reality, the causal level, if there is such a thing.

Hey steel hawk, I get you.  That's because we're using nonlogical arguments with people that only accept linear logic to describe reality.  Or, we're similar kinds of crazy.

[Steel Hawk]

Hey steel hawk, I get you.  That's because we're using nonlogical arguments with people that only accept linear logic to describe reality.  Or, we're similar kinds of crazy.

Well you probably get it more than I do. But yes I'd agree...


THE ROTE OF STEEL HAWK

1:1 In the beginning there was a vibration. And that vibration was the ONE force becoming the TWO force.

Okay so obviously there was one superforce which split into two semi-superforces. The original superforce still exists and really always was and is one superforce.

Think of the superforce as a magnet. One side is positive, the other side is negative.

Now these different properties of the superforce interact and form a third force which is a vibration. Like rubbing your hands together produces heat.

You might even call the superforce God. But to actually define it as intelligent is to know it, which I don't think is possible at this stage of the game.

Perhaps there's an entirely new game once you can figure out the superforce. At least I hope so...


1:2 And the vibration was aether (energy).


Aether or Energy is the vibration of this superforce.

Okay so wtf does that mean?

The magnet (superforce) creates energy, in the form of a vibration.

What do you guys and gals think so far? Should I even go with this... and sorry to hijack the thread. Please continue with the Ps and Qs.. It's just got me thinking, which is always bad.

[astralmugee]

I read some where once. it gave a good example of the thought form of dreaming. basicly we are computers, when we dream our minds render a 3d map and suroundings through a connection. this is what we see and experience in the dream world, when we astral project. we can connect with others. so instead of just our 3d map, we have manny connections from each person wich puts together its own peice of the 3d rendered map. kinda like bit torrents. many pieces being gathered from Every one to create a whole, complete piece.

[interception]

Every time I have AP and found a spirit guide I have asked them this question and they never gave me a direct answer. Maybe they don't know or maybe it's a secret. Where the astral planes created by beings or created naturally. In my experience anything that is flat and made of small squares is usually man made. Anyone know the answer?

Parts of the astral is made by all of us. The rest is made by trillions of other beings and the large scale structure is an infinite natural cyclic energy system... which probably extends into many other physical universes.

You perceived flat squares.... no offense, but people naturally make assumptions based on their narrow perceptions. I am guilty of it myself. All I can say is: don't do that, don't make assumptions, not when it comes to the astral realms. 

[l0stang3lz]

Dear all,
Let's first take in consideration that when trying to define God, we have to establish very clearly what God is and what God is not. Do not forget that we know about God comes from ancient sources. What we know about these ancient folks is that they did not have our knolwdge and level of understanding. This means that re-interpreting their data leads to incongruencies.

On the other hand please take into consideration the following very used idea that says that we(humans) are more than the sum of our parts(I think this refers to the soul ). Whar if God is more than the sum of the parts that we know of? Wouldn't our logic be wrong?

Quote
1. If there ever was a time that absolutely nothing existed, nothing would exist now...

Please tell me what value/reason/meaning would TIME have if there was NOTHING whose decay/change/demise is observed/measured as ... the effect of time passing by. (Vice versa is totally different : space without time means eternity) Actually let me ask you: "How do you define time?". Believe me, you cannot give me a complete definition of that. So not understanding totally what time is, how can we agree that "there was a time when nothing existed"?

Take into consideration that the physical universe(s) that abide the laws of time and space could as easily be some abstract ideas (when reffered to God) that either have no logic(from God's point of view regarding His existance) or God's existance simply cannot be expressed/quantified through seconds and meters(or inches  ) just like watter cannont be measured in Volts!!!

I think that God is like a 4D (or 1000D) being would be to us the 3D beings. OK for the sake of argument let's say that God is a 4D being. We couldn't understand or even see completely a 4D being even if it were right in front of us!
And, for the sake of argument, what if that 4th dimmension is somenthing so radically different from the other 3 dimmensionsof ours, that would make God such a different entity? Would it make any sense to still try to understant who/what He is???

I think trying to understand God is something pretty difficult for us humans... 

[jub jub]

I've quit trying to be the philosopher and instead, I just live life one day at a time. Trying to understand who, what, where God is or what time is, or the Astral for that matter is an exercise in futility.

Relax, have a beer, and enjoy what life has to offer. 

[kurtykurt42]

I've quit trying to be the philosopher and instead, I just live life one day at a time. Trying to understand who, what, where God is or what time is, or the Astral for that matter is an exercise in futility.

Never before in history have we had access to the technology, knowledge and information that we have today. Computers and the internet, the most powerful tools of this knowledge, allows us all to communicate information at the speed of light. Websites dedicated to finding the truth about every subject out there. Forums full of hundreds of thousands of people all sharing there experiences. So what better time than now to search for the answers to the questions that have remained unanswered for millenia.

[l0stang3lz]

Yeah, jub jub! That's the spirit!!!

[Stookie]

Relax, have a beer, and enjoy what life has to offer. 

Cheers to that!

[Psan]

kurtykurt42,

Good question. May be the answer is 42. Lol

Sometimes "No one knows" is a good enough answer. We are small.
You have the gift, explore...

And let us know if you find it.