The Astral Pulse

If we have this so called "Etheric Body" which is made up energy, why is so hard to prove something like an OBE when all you would have to do is detect energy levels dropping in the human body during an OBE, or actually detecting energy leave the body?

I think they are real, but I am beginning to question myself on how exactly these work.

I've been asking these questions for years, but have no answers yet  :smile:.
People usually tell me it's impossible to scientifically verify, yet, if the ethric/astral body exist, they quite easily interact with physical matter (body and brain), so you would have thought it would be detectable to a degree.
My current view is that the ethric/astral (and other subtle bodies/energy systems) are belief systems. Such as repeated tactile visualisation of movement evoking the 'memory' of tactile sensation, this is interpreted as energy movement, and is reinforced over time. Another example is that I currently believe chakras are created through visualisation and abstract associations are made between the physical, psyche and this new 'structure' i.e. we don't have inherent energy systems (meridian point and chakras very closely match nerve placement and the endocrine system), but we can build them through belief and use them as a tool.
Where am I going with this? I believe there are no 'external' energy movements or effects by which to detect OBE (I think it's an internal phenomenon – this doesn't detract from it as even our interaction with 'external reality' is really internal) and our best hope would be to indirectly gain evidence of the OBE phenomenon. But to do this, we need people who can consistently exit on will, which seems a near impossibility in itself :grin:.

Robert Bruce said he intends to "prove it" in 2007 with the help of scientists, I believe... I have high expectations for that :)

What makes you think this "energy" is detectable by modern equipment? Also is this "energy" a constant? If it fluctuates normally then how would you know what a change means. Then Finally assume there is a change in energy (whatever kind it may be) how would this prove OOBEs?

Personally I think OOBEs are like most psi phenomena and you need to experience it to believe it.

Quote from: GrigoriWhat makes you think this "energy" is detectable by modern equipment? Also is this "energy" a constant? If it fluctuates normally then how would you know what a change means.

If this energy exists, and if this energy has the properties attributed to it by advocates of the subtle body philosophies, it should be detectable. It's an energy which completely permeates the physical body; it has places where it is so noticeable that sticking a needle into that point creates effects on the physical (acupuncture). So either physical instruments can interact with it (the needle) or acupuncture has it's mechanics in physical means rather than in the energy body.
Also, this energy cannot be subtle since it can completely dominate the physical form allowing complete control and interaction on every level with the body and brain. This shows it's not like some of the most subtle particles we know in physics which barely interact with matter, this ethric stuff seems to fully permeate matter and interact with it completely. I'm quite shocked we haven't discovered it already, especially as many projectors state electricity interacts with their ethric body in interesting ways.

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Then Finally assume there is a change in energy (whatever kind it may be) how would this prove OOBEs?

If an energy can be detected leaving the body, moving around in external reality in a seemingly conscious manner (such as moving to set points, doing certain actions), and then returning to the body – I'm sure this would be noticed by the scientific community. And I for one would see it as a kind of proof.
But I have a feeling such energy will never be found as its part of the creative visualisation (astral), and has no physical reality. But I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and have to change this viewpoint :smile:.

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Personally I think OOBEs are like most psi phenomena and you need to experience it to believe it.

But even experiencing various paranormal/psi phenomenon does not prove its validity. I hate to say this, but many people take very natural and normal phenomenon to be paranormal simply because they can't see the natural mechanics behind it, or how it could have its roots in the reality we know. Too many people believe philosophies and ideologies far to easily based upon a personnel perception and no real thought behind how else it could have occurred.

Quote from: kiwibongaRobert Bruce said he intends to "prove it" in 2007 with the help of scientists, I believe... I have high expectations for that :)

Has Robert indicated how he's going to do this? I look forward to it anyway :smile:.

I doubt it's impossible to prove in the same way it's impossible to prove that I dreamed about being in Diablo 2 last night.

If the etheric is real, then yes, it seems there should be some sort of experiment to prove its existence. If any of it is real, you'd hope that there would be some way of proving it scientifically. Either science hasn't progressed enough, APing hasn't progressed enough, or it simply isn't real.

It seems it would be like proving the existence of alternate dimensions! Probably not going to happen any time soon.

Not going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

You could always lay a card somewhere without ever looking at it, then project to look at the card, then check it once you wake back up. I guess that's still not 100% proof, but its a good 95% lol. Lots of people have done it.

You also have to consider people who have never read ANYTHING about the subject describe identical experiences during the process of an OBE, which greatly decreases the likelyhood that its nothing but a conditioned internal hallucination based on something we've already read. There is some variance between individuals, like a reaction to anything else, but its remarkably consistant.

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Not going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

I don't think science would hold back to save the belief of religious people. Quite the opposite, I believe science will continue to research where it wishes regardless of potential consequences. A prime example of this is the discovery of splitting the atom last century.

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You could always lay a card somewhere without ever looking at it, then project to look at the card, then check it once you wake back up. I guess that's still not 100% proof, but its a good 95% lol. Lots of people have done it.

The card experiment is hard to gain any sort of validity from due to the card either being read wrongly, not being clear, not being there or actually turning into another object. If someone could consistently read a card correctly, that would show 'something' I guess. But the bigger stumbling block is the difficulty in projecting at will.

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You also have to consider people who have never read ANYTHING about the subject describe identical experiences during the process of an OBE, which greatly decreases the likelyhood that its nothing but a conditioned internal hallucination based on something we've already read. There is some variance between individuals, like a reaction to anything else, but its remarkably consistant.

On the surface it might seem to decrease it, but we cannot ignore that our world is interpreted and experienced filtered through a brain. Shared experiences might actually be produced by the same areas of the brain in each of us. This could explain why the experiences in general are similar, yet there are unique differences to each of us i.e. personal experience and belief systems change our interpretation of certain brain created experiences, and because we share the same brain, we share the same experience structure.
I'm not saying this is true, just that for every example of why OBEs might be more than hallucination, there is an equally compelling reason why they are not. This is why some form of validation would be great. It might answer such questions indirectly.

We have a tendency to think that the scientific community operates with our best interest at heart. I don't necessarily believe this to be the case. That's not to say that good people aren't a part of that community, but I can't imagine that they have ultimate say as to what information is released to the public. So, you really can't assume anything. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that many scientific discoveries have been made that we know nothing (or very little) about. There are many people in power who would like to keep the sheep just as they are- mindless and dependent.
There is no question in my mind that the OBE can be proven. It may be difficult I suppose, but certainly not impossible.

Quote from: maverick7hNot going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all! :wink:

QuoteAccording to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Humanity doesn't behave just because of threat of eternal damnation. I certainly don't. I think religion has a greater tendency to destructive behavior than to positive. A lot of people give up personal responsibility - the devil made me do it, but it doesn't matter anyway, because Jesus will make up for it.

I'm personally offended by the idea of Christianity (and Superman), that mankind will never be good enough without divine intervention. It's co-dependency at it's worst. Everyone must pay for their own "sins" - I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. It makes my life a whole lot more meaningful.

On the other hand, this isn't to say there aren't Christians I don't admire, or that I feel have a destructive or demeaning view on spirituality - I mean generally, the mindless faith saves no souls.

Talbot mentions detection of high frequency energies centered onn the traditional chakra locations in Holographic Universe.
The energy was at a frequency a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the usual EEG frequencies.

One of the reason why the etheric body has not been scientifically detected is probably that scientist don't know what to look for. Another might be that the signal is unwittingly filtered out as noise. Or perhaps there is nothing to detect?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

Quote from: jilolaTalbot mentions detection of high frequency energies centered onn the traditional chakra locations in Holographic Universe.
The energy was at a frequency a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the usual EEG frequencies.

One of the reason why the etheric body has not been scientifically detected is probably that scientist don't know what to look for. Another might be that the signal is unwittingly filtered out as noise. Or perhaps there is nothing to detect?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

In electronics, whenever a potential measurement is made, the measuring device needs to referenced to to a source. In most cases this is ground, or earth as some call it.

Now, let's say that in order to measure the vibrational frequency that we are currently in, we would have to use a reference that we don't have access to, such as another dimension. A dimensional ground if you will. Where would we find it and how would we access it?

I've often wondered about our vibrational field and how we could measure it or look at it without a reference point. If we could figure it out then maybe we could look at other dimensions as well. It wouldn't be no different than looking at different frequencies using a spectrum analyzer.

Just trying to think outside the box.

-edit- srry for going off topic. Scientific proof? high energy physics is making great progress IMHO-

Quote from: jub jub
Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all! :wink:

The existence of Hell? What about all the religions throughout history that have endeavored to create Hell on Earth? (referring to religions, not spirituality)
the crusades; the inquisition; the church graciously "forgives" Galileo after 500 years; endless persecution and exploitation of ignorance greed and negative emotion. Great thinkers and scientist simply trying to explain that the earth obits the sun were subjected to the worst abuse.

the only thing that keeps "religion" in check is government. Government forces the church in retreat to concentrating on good works of charity and that's were religion needs to stay.

I sincerely believe that if there is such a thing as the anti-Christ or satan or some powerful sadistic powerful being that chooses to incarnate on Earth, that it will surely become in charge of the most popular religion to influence the followers to create Hell on Earth.
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i'm not really a windgod, just like to eat beans and love to sail

Quote from: WindGod-edit- srry for going off topic. Scientific proof? high energy physics is making great progress IMHO-

Quote from: jub jub
Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all! :wink:

The existence of Hell? What about all the religions throughout history that have endeavored to create Hell on Earth? (referring to religions, not spirituality)
the crusades; the inquisition; the church graciously "forgives" Galileo after 500 years; endless persecution and exploitation of ignorance greed and negative emotion. Great thinkers and scientist simply trying to explain that the earth obits the sun were subjected to the worst abuse.

the only thing that keeps "religion" in check is government. Government forces the church in retreat to concentrating on good works of charity and that's were religion needs to stay.

I sincerely believe that if there is such a thing as the anti-Christ or satan or some powerful sadistic powerful being that chooses to incarnate on Earth, that it will surely become in charge of the most popular religion to influence the followers to create Hell on Earth.
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i'm not really a windgod, just like to eat beans and love to sail

Hey, you're preaching to the choir!

I'm not advocating anything. All I'm saying is that if people knew there was no such thing as heaven or hell, and that we all went to a nice place when we died, how much differently would we act knowing the Sheriff is out of town?

Quote from: jub jub
Hey, you're preaching to the choir!

I'm not advocating anything. All I'm saying is that if people knew there was no such thing as heaven or hell, and that we all went to a nice place when we died, how much differently would we act knowing the Sheriff is out of town?

Lol, was just watching "Wildest Police Videos", yes I agree.

Seeing the new unmarked police cars in our community pulling over speeders has greatly reduced my traffic infractions.
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i'm not really a windgod, i just like to eat beans and love to sail

QuoteSeeing the new unmarked police cars in our community pulling over speeders has greatly reduced my traffic infractions.

Knowing there are consequences for our actions certainly helps us behave better - but this is kind of artificial. We need someone to keep us from speeding with the consequence of a fine/ticket because we can't or won't see the consequence of endangering others by being irresponsible behind a ton of steel.

Maybe Hell is kind of the same way - an artificial, policing idea that serves as a pre-emptive caution for those incapable or unwilling to take responsibility for the longer term reality.

Religion has always struck me as being metaphorical and most people take the great wisdom of the ages and take it literally. If you can't understand it on one level, you go with the level of understanding you're ready for.

I wish I understood better what you posted about vibrational fields, jub jub. Sometimes I wonder about the Occult "veil" and earth's magnetic field, pole reversals, et al.

Suppose the greater awareness - or the ability to transfer the wider reality to our brains - is affected by the earth's magnetic field. It causes static in the transmission. Humanity's natural state is the waking life and the "dreaming" life - only instead of being remembered as hazy dreams, every night is an 7-hour OBE-equivalent.

What if OBEs are just a matter of getting wider-reality information downloaded into our brains, and doing so requires short trips, highly lucid, to have any chance of getting the memory downloaded into the physical because of the static (veil)? Without the veil in place, there's no static, and suddenly everyone is aware.

This is the only thing that has me anticipating 2012 - a real long-shot hoping that maybe it is something special, that maybe all this pole reversal talk and religious talk about the veil being parted has something authentic behind it.

I might be overly-optimistic, but I like the hope that humanity has something truly amazing in its future.

QuoteI wish I understood better what you posted about vibrational fields, jub jub. Sometimes I wonder about the Occult "veil" and earth's magnetic field, pole reversals, et al.

Sheesh...jumping all over the place here!  :lol:

I'm under the impression that when we experience an OOBE, the vibrations we feel are actually our consciousness' shifting to another reality/dimension/thought plane/etc.

The reason that we don't feel the vibes all the time is because we are living them, we are them. It's the same as a bird standing on a high tension line. It doesn't get electrocuted because there is no path for current to flow.

When we experience the vibes, there is an astral ground (for lack of a better term) and we experience the phase shifting as our consciousness is shifted to a different frequency. Then our consciousness is no longer on the earth plane but somewhere else! That might help to explain why everything in the RTZ is so out of whack, because the consciousness has to reconstruct it from memory!

When you look at all the evidence, it gives good credence to the idea of a holographic universe!

Why would it be hard to prove where our souls go after  we die??Did you mean to the world or to ourselves??

Quote from: jub jubThat might help to explain why everything in the RTZ is so out of whack, because the consciousness has to reconstruct it from memory!

There's a thought.  I wonder if those with better memory construct a more lifelike RTZ replica and those who are less observant (such as me) end up with anomalies all over the place.  I think I'll start a new thread.  :grin:

Sarah

For me, very good "proof" is that every person in the moment of death looses exactly 21 gramm ( I sad this few times on this forum :) ).

Quote from: Astral ProjectionFor me, very good "proof" is that every person in the moment of death looses exactly 21 gramm ( I sad this few times on this forum :) ).

They don't though. The whole premise of the soul weighing 21 grams was borne from experiments by a Dr. Duncan MacDougall in 1907.
He weighed a number of people on death and noted some seemed to lose a certain amount of weight (grams). It would be amazing if everyone lost the same amount of weight, but as far as I know, some actually gained weight, and those that lost it didn't lose the same amount. The experiments were also said to contain a high degree of error.
To date these results of the experiments haven't been reproduced, so this whole idea is based on the minority of results from on experiment a century ago. I'm a bit reluctant to see that as proof of a soul.
I also know he carried out experiments by killing dogs and weighing them too. He supposedly noticed no difference in weight in any of the dog experiments.

This leads us to a few possible conclusions:
1)   The soul might have a weight, but not everyone has a soul (given some didn't lose any weight and some gained weight). Also no dogs have souls.
2)   The soul doesn't necessarily leave the body on death (or even exist) and the weight drop could be accounted for by the sudden rise in temperature on death causing sweat and moisture evaporation (which accounts for the dogs not losing weight, as they don't sweat). Also, a certain volume of air and gas is expelled from the body on death which would take the weight down too. There have been a few arguments against this, but as yet, it still seems plausible.

For me at least, I couldn't in good conscious take this as proof.

The question asked in this thread might seem very complex.

I think first one must ask what's the nature of reality. Some might be surprised how modern science theories have surpassed most religions & philosophies in the weirdness factor. Did you know that most scientists now believe in the MWI, Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Yes, MWI teaches there are infinite realities. Right now you can move your finger left or right or any position. MWI teaches there's a reality for all possibilities. That is, there's a reality where you moved your finger left, there's a reality where you moved your finger right, there's a reality if you sneezed, and on and on. Infinite possibilities.

The point is that perhaps the mystics were correct in that this physical existence is not as we might think. We might even go as far as to accept what they say, which is the universe does not and cannot exist without consciousness. If that is true, then we, all beings sustain this existence. Without "Us" there is nothing. So what is "We?"  Well, as many of you have discovered, we are multi layered beings. Many of you have dabbled with the Etheric and Astral bodies, and perhaps on occasion the lower Mental body. So that's at least 4 bodies including the physical. Just how many more bodies are there? For those very advanced projection explorers, have you noticed a pattern with each body that is higher in vibration? Is it possible that at such a high realm exists the part of you that some may refer to as god, with the little "g." Is it possible that we have what some call the Spirit within? Is it possible that we are all connected on a high level and participate in a sort of Matrix type experience?

If we continue this thought, some question might arise. Such as, does a falling tree make a noise in the middle of the forest? Well, how would this apply in a Matrix type environment? For simplicity lets use computers as the force that sustains the Matrix. So you're connected and inside this virtual reality. You travel to a forest and create a tree, but this tree is kind of weak. You leave the tree and over time it withers and eventually falls. The tree inside this Matrix falls, but you are no where near it and have no idea that it fell. Yet, did the tree fall? Yes, of course, because the Matrix is being sustained by computers. The computers continually simulate all things inside the Matrix. It is called a simulation. It would not be much of a simulation if for example you pick up a ball, then drop the ball, and while the ball is fall you turn your head and suddenly the computers stopped updating the falling ball, so the ball suddenly stops when turn your head. No, that's a poor simulation. :eek:

So the same would hold true for our reality as the above computer simulated Matrix. The popular term for this is "Group Consciousness."  If it is true that on some higher level there is force, perhaps what many call our Spirit, and all these spirits are connected, and this web of connections is the Group Consciousness, then this higher force would be responsible for our reality, our simulation if you will. Therefore, when the tree falls in the middle of the forest, it must make a noise for it is a higher force that sustains all things. That higher force is aware of that falling tree regardless if there are no physical beings within the vicinity.

Now, for the final thought. If it's true that what we call reality is created and sustained by this group consciousness, and obviously this group in totality would be highly intelligent, then it could be conceived as our parent in some way. Is it possible for instance that this higher force would allow someone to create and detonate an Antimatter bomb that would destroy this planet? Well, if for some reason that is what the group as a whole wills, then I am certain it will happen. What about proof of the projection of consciousness? Such global proof would cause massive changes in beliefs, etc. Perhaps that's what the group now wills, perhaps not.

Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail. What does this mean? It means that you can have the best out of body projector in the universe and if this projector is trying to prove this existence to a room of scientists and if there are enough disbelievers in the room then the poor projector will fail miserably.

What does all this mean? I believe it means that when the world is ready for hardcore proof then it may happen. Until then, it will not. I believe it means that the best form of proof for now is Personal Proof. Great if you can prove it to the world. I wish Bruce the best!

Consider the idea that to prove the existence of projection of consciousness to yourself is a piece of cake, relatively speaking :smile:. To prove such projection to your friend is a little difficult. To prove such projection to a dozen people is a feat of achievement. To prove projection of consciousness to 1000 people is out of this world. To prove it to nearly 7 billion people is a miracle from God. :lol:

This all might sound like a bunch of theories. Well, consider a recent poll that revealed the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is accepted by most scientists. So if you believe what some mystics teach then know you are not alone in the weirdness factor. That some of the brainiest people in the world probably have one up on you in weird beliefs.

Last, I enjoy your thoughts here, but I really have better things to do than post lengthy theoretical information. I just wanted to say the reason I made this post is because it is truth for me. So yes, I became friends with a so called mystic who without shadow of doubt proved these things to little old me, and I'm a tough cookie, lol, scientifically minded.  Oh, and my personal out of body projections didn't hurt either. :razz:  Like some of you, I spent a great deal of time projecting to far places in a large and complex city and afterwards went there in the physical to confirm that yes indeed I was there out of body. Yep, this stuff is real folks! Did it work every time? Nope, it failed miserably many times. I did many out of body experiments that failed. Thing is, obe is an art, a training. Like most things in life, it takes work. Have you seen people in shape who can do dozens of pull-ups. Sure, you can do hundreds of those out of body, but I'm talking about in the physical. Does that mean you can walk over to a bar and start doing them? No way!  Yet with time and practice most of you can. As you really know, same applies with obe's? With practice and time under your obe belt you learn to develop your bodies. Before you know it (well, okay, I think it usually takes like 5 years average of solid obe practice) you could fly just about anywhere on Earth and confirm the experience afterwards in the physical. Before you know it, you'll learn to sync to Earths Etheric and project there, and it is real folks. It sounds easy, but some end up believing it is difficult. Well, truth is, it is easy, but you just need to practice practice practice. Would you like to learn how to be a good singer? Not a professional singer, just a good old singer. Some might think it is difficult. After several months you might think it is nearly impossible. Sure, you might not be the next American Idol, but most vocalist will tell you just about anyone can learn to sing fairly well. Just takes time folks!  I don't mean to preach. You all know the story.

God bless,
Inward

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The question asked in this thread might seem very complex.

I think first one must ask what's the nature of reality. Some might be surprised how modern science theories have surpassed most religions & philosophies in the weirdness factor. Did you know that most scientists now believe in the MWI, Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Yes, MWI teaches there are infinite realities. Right now you can move your finger left or right or any position. MWI teaches there's a reality for all possibilities. That is, there's a reality where you moved your finger left, there's a reality where you moved your finger right, there's a reality if you sneezed, and on and on. Infinite possibilities.

The problem of the MWI interpretation is that it offers us no tangible evidence that it exists. It's an interpretation of the uncertainty principle with no way of empirically proving its truth.
Even if the MWI was found to hold truth, I don't see how it helps us in proving the existence of the astral. 1 physical world, or a billion physical worlds, they are still all in the position we are in (physical).

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The point is that perhaps the mystics were correct in that this physical existence is not as we might think. We might even go as far as to accept what they say, which is the universe does not and cannot exist without consciousness. If that is true, then we, all beings sustain this existence. Without "Us" there is nothing. So what is "We?" Well, as many of you have discovered, we are multi layered beings. Many of you have dabbled with the Etheric and Astral bodies, and perhaps on occasion the lower Mental body. So that's at least 4 bodies including the physical. Just how many more bodies are there? For those very advanced projection explorers, have you noticed a pattern with each body that is higher in vibration? Is it possible that at such a high realm exists the part of you that some may refer to as god, with the little "g." Is it possible that we have what some call the Spirit within? Is it possible that we are all connected on a high level and participate in a sort of Matrix type experience?

The problem here is that there is no link what-so-ever between a possible (un-provable) theory of the physical and the existence of the astral. It seems that quantum theories are used as proof of spiritual philosophies because they sound outlandish to our 'commonsense', and the astral and such realities sound outlandish too, so a very tenuous link is formed. This is like saying ducks can fly, so can aeroplanes, therefore aeroplanes are a form of duck! A tenuous link produced by a perceived shared attribute.
I also see no reason why the universe cannot exist without consciousness. Unless we discount all scientific evidence to date (how the cosmos formed – which I happily admit is incomplete), then the universe has existed for a very long time with no conscious observers to give it form.
Philosophically speaking, one could state that the universe ceases to exist without consciousness on an individual level. But it still exits outside of that individual's perception.

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If we continue this thought, some question might arise. Such as, does a falling tree make a noise in the middle of the forest? Well, how would this apply in a Matrix type environment? For simplicity lets use computers as the force that sustains the Matrix. So you're connected and inside this virtual reality. You travel to a forest and create a tree, but this tree is kind of weak. You leave the tree and over time it withers and eventually falls. The tree inside this Matrix falls, but you are no where near it and have no idea that it fell. Yet, did the tree fall? Yes, of course, because the Matrix is being sustained by computers. The computers continually simulate all things inside the Matrix. It is called a simulation. It would not be much of a simulation if for example you pick up a ball, then drop the ball, and while the ball is fall you turn your head and suddenly the computers stopped updating the falling ball, so the ball suddenly stops when turn your head. No, that's a poor simulation.  

The problem here is that we are building assumption upon assumption to gather more assumptions. The conclusion will hold no truth as it is built upon 'what-if's, rather than known's.
If a tree falls does it make a noise? This can simply be reduced down to what we perceive noise to be. Is noise the vibration waves caused in air, or is noise the interception (and interpretation by the brain) of those vibration waves? So it comes down to personal opinion. If I decide the tree makes no noise, it doesn't change the fact the tree still fell and caused vibrations in the air.

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So the same would hold true for our reality as the above computer simulated Matrix. The popular term for this is "Group Consciousness." If it is true that on some higher level there is force, perhaps what many call our Spirit, and all these spirits are connected, and this web of connections is the Group Consciousness, then this higher force would be responsible for our reality, our simulation if you will. Therefore, when the tree falls in the middle of the forest, it must make a noise for it is a higher force that sustains all things. That higher force is aware of that falling tree regardless if there are no physical beings within the vicinity.

Now, for the final thought. If it's true that what we call reality is created and sustained by this group consciousness, and obviously this group in totality would be highly intelligent, then it could be conceived as our parent in some way. Is it possible for instance that this higher force would allow someone to create and detonate an Antimatter bomb that would destroy this planet? Well, if for some reason that is what the group as a whole wills, then I am certain it will happen. What about proof of the projection of consciousness? Such global proof would cause massive changes in beliefs, etc. Perhaps that's what the group now wills, perhaps not.

I have a problem with the idea of reality being created by higher consciousnesses, or being created by a group consciousness. It seems a 'get out of thinking free card'. Hear something you don't like? It's the group consciousness. Hear a scientific theory you don't like? That doesn't matter, because it's not really true, it's just a group belief and nothing more. It seems to pass all responsibility of the individual to a higher force (sound familiar?). It's also an idea which can never be validated or proven in the 'physical', and so it helps us in no way towards learning the truth of the astral.

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Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail. What does this mean? It means that you can have the best out of body projector in the universe and if this projector is trying to prove this existence to a room of scientists and if there are enough disbelievers in the room then the poor projector will fail miserably.

This is the uncertainty principle, which seems to assume an observer is needed for wavefront collapse (one possibility being chosen out of all possible possibilities). The uncertainty principle in no way even implies a person's belief or disbelief matters. The observer could be a piece of inert metal. It doesn't have to be a sentient life form.
There is also much (interesting) theory which suggests our interpretation of the uncertainty principle is wrong, and an observer is not needed at all.
I can imagine a person picking up on the disbelief of others, then that disbelief sways their own belief and so they don't project. But I can in no way see how a persons belief can effect a person against their own belief (and the uncertainty principle has never suggested such things).

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What does all this mean? I believe it means that when the world is ready for hardcore proof then it may happen. Until then, it will not. I believe it means that the best form of proof for now is Personal Proof. Great if you can prove it to the world. I wish Bruce the best!

I wonder why, if the belief of many can shape reality, Jesus hasn't come back again. There are billions of Christians, yet their concentrated effort on the coming of Christ doesn't make him come. It's not like the rest of the population are actively countering this belief, so they have no opposition to it, and their belief still doesn't change reality. Such things can be seen everywhere i.e. belief of the many having no effect. I really don't think belief changes anything outside of ones own 'interpretation' of reality (not reality itself). We would live in chaos if beliefs did change reality (even on minute scales) as 6+ billion beliefs would be competing for dominance. But then again, this can be explained away with a higher force not materialising those beliefs I guess  :wink: .

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Consider the idea that to prove the existence of projection of consciousness to yourself is a piece of cake, relatively speaking  . To prove such projection to your friend is a little difficult. To prove such projection to a dozen people is a feat of achievement. To prove projection of consciousness to 1000 people is out of this world. To prove it to nearly 7 billion people is a miracle from God.  

This all might sound like a bunch of theories. Well, consider a recent poll that revealed the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is accepted by most scientists. So if you believe what some mystics teach then know you are not alone in the weirdness factor. That some of the brainiest people in the world probably have one up on you in weird beliefs.

The problem with brainy people is that their beliefs are no better than the beliefs of less brainy people. More scientists from one specific survey (not indicative of every scientist) stated a preference for an interpretation. That doesn't mean such an interpretation is true, especially when one considers there is no empirical evidence of that interpretation.

I guess I don't like the way many occult philosophies are latching onto quantum and string theories due to their perception of what those theories mean. When our understanding of quantum phenomenon grows, many of our current theories will be discarded, and by association, so will the spiritual theories too.

Hi MisterJingo,

Quote from: MisterJingoThe problem of the MWI interpretation is that it offers us no tangible evidence that it exists. It's an interpretation of the uncertainty principle with no way of empirically proving its truth.

We agree.

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The point is that perhaps the mystics were correct in that this physical existence is not as we might think. We might even go as far as to accept what they say, which is the universe does not and cannot exist without consciousness. If that is true, then we, all beings sustain this existence. Without "Us" there is nothing. So what is "We?" Well, as many of you have discovered, we are multi layered beings. Many of you have dabbled with the Etheric and Astral bodies, and perhaps on occasion the lower Mental body. So that's at least 4 bodies including the physical. Just how many more bodies are there? For those very advanced projection explorers, have you noticed a pattern with each body that is higher in vibration? Is it possible that at such a high realm exists the part of you that some may refer to as god, with the little "g." Is it possible that we have what some call the Spirit within? Is it possible that we are all connected on a high level and participate in a sort of Matrix type experience?

The problem here is that there is no link what-so-ever between a possible (un-provable) theory of the physical and the existence of the astral.

The link cannot be found in global proof. As far as I know, presently personal proof is the only method of obtaining such proof.

QuoteIt seems that quantum theories are used as proof of spiritual philosophies because they sound outlandish to our 'commonsense', and the astral and such realities sound outlandish too, so a very tenuous link is formed. This is like saying ducks can fly, so can aeroplanes, therefore aeroplanes are a form of duck! A tenuous link produced by a perceived shared attribute.

We agree.

Quote from: MisterJingoI also see no reason why the universe cannot exist without consciousness. Unless we discount all scientific evidence to date (how the cosmos formed – which I happily admit is incomplete), then the universe has existed for a very long time with no conscious observers to give it form.

Some believe the cosmos was created before their consciousness was created. My only suggestion is that one first needs to get past the material science limitations and understand that consciousness is beyond any physical stuff. As far as I know this is not achievable by any global proof or science, yet. Although this understanding is achievable by personal proof. Once one obtains their personal proof via obe's and such then they can have a better understanding of consciousness and what exactly the universe is.

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So the same would hold true for our reality as the above computer simulated Matrix. The popular term for this is "Group Consciousness." If it is true that on some higher level there is force, perhaps what many call our Spirit, and all these spirits are connected, and this web of connections is the Group Consciousness, then this higher force would be responsible for our reality, our simulation if you will. Therefore, when the tree falls in the middle of the forest, it must make a noise for it is a higher force that sustains all things. That higher force is aware of that falling tree regardless if there are no physical beings within the vicinity.

Now, for the final thought. If it's true that what we call reality is created and sustained by this group consciousness, and obviously this group in totality would be highly intelligent, then it could be conceived as our parent in some way. Is it possible for instance that this higher force would allow someone to create and detonate an Antimatter bomb that would destroy this planet? Well, if for some reason that is what the group as a whole wills, then I am certain it will happen. What about proof of the projection of consciousness? Such global proof would cause massive changes in beliefs, etc. Perhaps that's what the group now wills, perhaps not.

I have a problem with the idea of reality being created by higher consciousnesses, or being created by a group consciousness. It seems a 'get out of thinking free card'. Hear something you don't like? It's the group consciousness. Hear a scientific theory you don't like? That doesn't matter, because it's not really true, it's just a group belief and nothing more. It seems to pass all responsibility of the individual to a higher force (sound familiar?). It's also an idea which can never be validated or proven in the 'physical', and so it helps us in no way towards learning the truth of the astral.

I'm not sure you read my entire post before replying. At the end I proposed that I have my personal proof, hence the reason I am encouraging others to diligently obtain their personal proof.
The main limiting factor with main stream science is that they do not understand group consciousness. They want to see a psychic prove time after time experiments so they can show this hard core proof to the world, but the problem is such global proof is not allowed yet. There are people that you may not consider a scientist, but IMHO they are the true scientists since they overcame the problem of material science and now seek personal proof or have gathered a group of people of like mindedness and eventually achieve great results.

In a nutshell, material science proof is open for the world. Non-material science proof is open for groups of like minded believers.  What separates the two depends on intent and outcome. If a scientist initially intends merely personal proof, but in his or her excitement of success decides to show the results to the world then ... well, the poor scientists would have never succeeded from the start. In such a case, it only makes sense that the poor scientist will never even find their personal proof.

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Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail. What does this mean? It means that you can have the best out of body projector in the universe and if this projector is trying to prove this existence to a room of scientists and if there are enough disbelievers in the room then the poor projector will fail miserably.

This is the uncertainty principle, which seems to assume an observer is needed for wavefront collapse (one possibility being chosen out of all possible possibilities). The uncertainty principle in no way even implies a person's belief or disbelief matters. The observer could be a piece of inert metal. It doesn't have to be a sentient life form.

It is not the uncertainty principle. Try the experiment as you might. Try as many times as you wish. You and many others will fail to bring global hard core proof to the world until the group is ready for such a change. :smile:  Uncertainty principle is based on probabilities. If a group of scientists try to achieve experimental success over and over and get the same failing results then it is fairly certain, lol. Many have tried such experiments on national live T.V.  They failed and would fail a million times over. Yet these poor people have performed the exact same tests in private or in front of their friend(s) have succeeded dozens of times in a row. Yes, in a few cases we are dealing with very unscientifically minded people who performed bad test. Yet there are people such as myself who are very scientifically minded and have performed good tests, successfully. As stated, I have performed many out of body experiments.

QuoteThere is also much (interesting) theory which suggests our interpretation of the uncertainty principle is wrong, and an observer is not needed at all.
I can imagine a person picking up on the disbelief of others, then that disbelief sways their own belief and so they don't project.

Perhaps you might be under the impression that I follow the Quantum Mechanics. I am not a follower of any main stream science. Such theories are material science theories and work on the physical material universe.

QuoteBut I can in no way see how a persons belief can effect a person against their own belief (and the uncertainty principle has never suggested such things).

Actually that's not what I said. :smile:  The outcome of non-material experiments is highly dependent on the observers and the subject.

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What does all this mean? I believe it means that when the world is ready for hardcore proof then it may happen. Until then, it will not. I believe it means that the best form of proof for now is Personal Proof. Great if you can prove it to the world. I wish Bruce the best!

I wonder why, if the belief of many can shape reality, Jesus hasn't come back again. There are billions of Christians, yet their concentrated effort on the coming of Christ doesn't make him come.

As stated, it is a group consciousness. I was told that the human life wave on this planet consists of over 60 billion Souls. Most are in the Astral and Mental realms. How many of those follow the Christian Bible? But that is irrelevant because of the following. As stated, a human being is multi-layered. One needs to ask if they have a Soul and a Spirit? I believe we have a Soul and within the Soul is a spark called the Spirit. The Spirit is connected to all things. The Soul and Spirit could be perceived as ones parent. Have you heard the term Lower Self? As they say, your personality is the lower self, which basically consist of a material, etheric, emotional system called the astral body, and a lower mind. That's what you know as your consciousness, your lower self. Similarly you have a higher self. Furthermore you have a Divine self. As the teachings go, it is the Divine self that forms the collective, the group consciousness, which forms the bigger picture on Earth, the outermost boundaries if you will. One boundary seems to be non-material global proof. For now it seems a real boundary, but in 20 years, who knows. :-)

As I suggested in the post, it is that higher force within that is connected and forms the group consciousness, and it is that force in totality that makes the big decisions if UFO's may make a mass landing, or if a Christ shall come in the sky and change the world, or if Bruce may provide the world with hard core global proof. :smile:

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Consider the idea that to prove the existence of projection of consciousness to yourself is a piece of cake, relatively speaking  . To prove such projection to your friend is a little difficult. To prove such projection to a dozen people is a feat of achievement. To prove projection of consciousness to 1000 people is out of this world. To prove it to nearly 7 billion people is a miracle from God.  

This all might sound like a bunch of theories. Well, consider a recent poll that revealed the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is accepted by most scientists. So if you believe what some mystics teach then know you are not alone in the weirdness factor. That some of the brainiest people in the world probably have one up on you in weird beliefs.

The problem with brainy people is that their beliefs are no better than the beliefs of less brainy people. More scientists from one specific survey (not indicative of every scientist) stated a preference for an interpretation. That doesn't mean such an interpretation is true, especially when one considers there is no empirical evidence of that interpretation.

We agree. :smile:

QuoteI guess I don't like the way many occult philosophies are latching onto quantum and string theories due to their perception of what those theories mean. When our understanding of quantum phenomenon grows, many of our current theories will be discarded, and by association, so will the spiritual theories too.

I agree, but don't you have to be a little careful to first see if the person is truly pushing such quantum theories? In my case I was only making the point that spirituality can realistically no longer be considered weird since mainstream theories have surpassed many spiritual theories in the weirdness factor. Therefore, anyone considering such material theories should also consider the existence of group consciousness. But I can fully understand how one without the personal proof of obe's could resist such a theory. Hence, in that case, I would merely recommend such a person diligently work on obtaining at least several obe's per week and eventually obe experiments.

Inward

I think that you have to believe . Just because it can't be proved doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And i don't see why you can't continue just because no one has proved anything.

I think some things do exist but are difficult to prove. When OBE and related stuff are in question there is allways Kirlian photography coming to my mind. And I know some are proving it doesn't work or is not what we see. Still, I think of it as something closest to be the proof that those things are real. It's high frequency, high voltage device which captures emanations from our body onto a photo.
Besides, if there is enough will it can be researched and then used as a diagnostic tool in medicine just like x-ray for example. To me, it may prove existance of our energy body, which is basis for proving OBE?

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Some believe the cosmos was created before their consciousness was created. My only suggestion is that one first needs to get past the material science limitations and understand that consciousness is beyond any physical stuff. As far as I know this is not achievable by any global proof or science, yet. Although this understanding is achievable by personal proof. Once one obtains their personal proof via obe's and such then they can have a better understanding of consciousness and what exactly the universe is.

I really sit on the wall here. I truly did believe in the whole 'consciousness is more than the brain' idea, but as I read more into scientific areas (neuroscience etc) and see just how even innate characteristics of consciousness seem intrinsically linked to brain function, I really have to wonder if consciousness is brain produced or not. If it isn't brain produced, I then wonder in what form it exists independent of the brain (if it has so much of its action in brain functionality that is).
For all I know, the entire astral could be supported by living brains (Which exist within a very strong magnetic field) – and without living brains, there would be no astral.

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I'm not sure you read my entire post before replying. At the end I proposed that I have my personal proof, hence the reason I am encouraging others to diligently obtain their personal proof.
The main limiting factor with main stream science is that they do not understand group consciousness. They want to see a psychic prove time after time experiments so they can show this hard core proof to the world, but the problem is such global proof is not allowed yet. There are people that you may not consider a scientist, but IMHO they are the true scientists since they overcame the problem of material science and now seek personal proof or have gathered a group of people of like mindedness and eventually achieve great results.

To reply to the above, I would really have to reference a lot of things which have made me doubt at least our current philosophies of the astral, but I really haven't got the time now (its something I might put together as a separate post, but might take a few weeks), so I'll just condense some thoughts down.
Firstly, this physical reality we seem to find ourselves within is pretty resilient to any personal belief, furthermore, it seems that everyone shares a pretty solid consensus interpretation of actions within this reality. For example, I've never met you, yet, if I suggested we both go away and follow the same set of instructions (perhaps doing a scientific experiment, or mathematical equation) we would end up with the same result. If a hundred people went away and did such a thing, they would all share the same results. The astral seems to have no such consensus what-so-ever. The only remotely shared experience I have seen which seem to share common factors are actually group guided. That is, a person describes what everyone else should be seeing and doing, and this does bring back similar results (yet still slightly different due to personal interpretation etc). But such a thing as this only has shared results due to an anchor in physical reality.
Also, people really underestimate just what the mind is capable of. We have had literally millions of years of evolution with no developed language skills, so we learnt to decipher even minute body language intricately. We still hold these skills now, but people pass off such things as being an 'emptath' or a psychic, and they bestow special powers on such things. Go and see what a mentalist can do, they really do seem to be using psychic gifts in their arts, but really they have just learnt to tap into our innate abilities to read detail information from body language (even seemingly being able to read minds etc).
I have seen groups who have such belief in their philosophies that they unconsciously change their memories to match what they want to believe. The would deny wholeheartedly doing such a thing, yet they have done. This brings me to how fickle our memories truly are. There has been some fantastic (and horrific) examples of how a mind can be made to incorporate false memories into their perceived past.
My point of this is not to sound super sceptical, or to try and diminish results of groups with shared beliefs, I'm just saying that the mind is capable of more than we can ever imagine even on the physical level alone – and we still have barely scratched the surface of this area of science. Personally, I have had a lot of solid beliefs replaced with 'maybes' now, because I want to find the truth above all. I used to be a firm adherent to Monroes view of reality. But, in a somewhat painful (and scary)_ period, I changed a lot of what I took as knowns to be possibilities. And so now I question both the physical and the astral (through my personal experiences).

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In a nutshell, material science proof is open for the world. Non-material science proof is open for groups of like minded believers. What separates the two depends on intent and outcome. If a scientist initially intends merely personal proof, but in his or her excitement of success decides to show the results to the world then ... well, the poor scientists would have never succeeded from the start. In such a case, it only makes sense that the poor scientist will never even find their personal proof.

If any of the current philosophies concerning energy bodies, and the astral have truth, then the interplay of energies should be detectable. If the physical is made by a group consciousness, then it is seated firmly in the astral and so something should be detectable of this - even if it is indirect proof, like suddenly someone overcoming the group belief and flying, or doing some amazing, seemingly miraculous act.
More recently, I am actually favouring older occult ideas that the astral is the creative imagination. What the imagination actually is though, I really have no idea :smile:.

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It is not the uncertainty principle. Try the experiment as you might. Try as many times as you wish. You and many others will fail to bring global hard core proof to the world until the group is ready for such a change.  Uncertainty principle is based on probabilities. If a group of scientists try to achieve experimental success over and over and get the same failing results then it is fairly certain, lol. Many have tried such experiments on national live T.V. They failed and would fail a million times over. Yet these poor people have performed the exact same tests in private or in front of their friend(s) have succeeded dozens of times in a row. Yes, in a few cases we are dealing with very unscientifically minded people who performed bad test. Yet there are people such as myself who are very scientifically minded and have performed good tests, successfully. As stated, I have performed many out of body experiments.

What experiment is this that you are on about? The reason I mention the uncertainty principle (most famously the double slit experiment regarding wave-particle duality) is that it is the only experiment which has ever suggested that the observer has an effect on the outcome of the experiment (i.e. Schrödinger's cat). Everett's 'many world theory' was created to possibly explain the results of this experiment (although Everett admitted he hadn't thought out any details of the theory).

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Perhaps you might be under the impression that I follow the Quantum Mechanics. I am not a follower of any main stream science. Such theories are material science theories and work on the physical material universe.

I apologise if I came across that way. I guess I see a lot of spiritual philosophies trying to gain credence by piggybacking on scientific theories, and so I might rant when I come across something which I perceived to be doing such a thing :grin:.
What I don't understand is that there really is no separation between the material and non-material universe. It has the same source, so why can't one detect the other? Why can't proof be gained? (Actually the astral seems to interact freely with the physical which confuses matters) I just see a lot of reasons why we can never know the spiritual, but none seem to add up.
The only possibly way I could see the astral and physical being (possibly) irrevocably separate, is if the astral was purely brain generated, so its reality would be a series of seeming nonsensical electrical impulses and interference patterns in a flesh brain. I don't truly believe this, so I carry on asking why we cannot gain proof.

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As stated, it is a group consciousness. I was told that the human life wave on this planet consists of over 60 billion Souls. Most are in the Astral and Mental realms. How many of those follow the Christian Bible? But that is irrelevant because of the following. As stated, a human being is multi-layered. One needs to ask if they have a Soul and a Spirit? I believe we have a Soul and within the Soul is a spark called the Spirit. The Spirit is connected to all things. The Soul and Spirit could be perceived as ones parent. Have you heard the term Lower Self? As they say, your personality is the lower self, which basically consist of a material, etheric, emotional system called the astral body, and a lower mind. That's what you know as your consciousness, your lower self. Similarly you have a higher self. Furthermore you have a Divine self. As the teachings go, it is the Divine self that forms the collective, the group consciousness, which forms the bigger picture on Earth, the outermost boundaries if you will. One boundary seems to be non-material global proof. For now it seems a real boundary, but in 20 years, who knows. :-)

What I have learnt from my experienced to date (not getting indoctrinated into others belief systems) is that there is no soul or spirit (I am coming to see these a belief systems in themselves), that everything we ever interact with is manifested by our brain/mind (i.e. we live within an 'internal' representation of a perceived external locale). My main questions lie in if the mind has any created reality than a psychically created phenomenon. You will probably think my view is very wrong (and so would many others), but it has no lesser or greater truth (proof) than the Christian view of creation, or any other religious or spiritual view of creation and reality. There is nothing which holds one above the other. We could state that personal experience gives us truth, but if you are a devout Christian, your personal findings would pretty much match the indoctrination of your religion (and so with all spiritual/religious paths). I really wonder what one with no intrinsic beliefs would find. We have an indication with Robert Monroe's journeys – which are radically different to any other authors to date (most authors being hung up with energy bodies and chakras etc).
Also, regarding this group consciousness, why was reality created in this way? In the astral one has no true form, one can manifest the object of any possible desire, yet this physical is so drastically different to the innate workings of the astral and higher planes, it seems almost incomprehensible to a viewpoint of a being in the astral. It's easy to say such things as 'it was created to teach us lessons', but why this way. Why the need for gravity, why the need for heat/cold, reproduction, food etc? Also, being created by a group consciousness would put the physical firmly into the astral. Why have no other astral locales I've visited been bounded by such laws?
I've been to locations where the inhabitants are very much like earthlings, yet, they cannot bend any 'physical' laws in their locale but I can. I fly and amaze the inhabitants, and seem not to be restricted by whatever beliefs created such a locale. So why are out physical laws so unbend-able. What is special about our location in the astral? This really makes very little sense to me.
Something else which really confuses me is people say the physical was created as a learning environment. Yet, in the astral, experience can be shared directly (i.e. Monroe's ROTE), rather than through the very inefficient 3rd hand method we have in the physical which seems to mangle shared knowledge rather than preserve it. If experience can be given directly on the astral as if one had gained that experience themselves, then why do we even need the physical? On a similar vein, all spiritual practices seem to see enlightenment as a 'throwing off' of the human condition, rising above it, becoming more than it. With this viewpoint, we actually reduced ourselves in the physical, and we have to spend a lifetime (or many) trying to throw off what we gained by coming here i.e. we were more spiritually advanced by this definition before setting foot in the physical. All I can say is why? Seems like a pointless exercise. Some might argue that we learn invaluable knowledge here – yet, in the astral, energy follows thought – we literally can have anything or be anything – so the physical lessons seem pretty redundant.

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As I suggested in the post, it is that higher force within that is connected and forms the group consciousness, and it is that force in totality that makes the big decisions if UFO's may make a mass landing, or if a Christ shall come in the sky and change the world, or if Bruce may provide the world with hard core global proof.  

I can appreciate the idea of group consciousnesses, but I really have to question why. Why do we need this idea? Why is such an idea 'more true' than a literal biblical interpretation of reality. They are both based on faith and belief.
Why couldn't the physical have started with no consciousness? Atrophy triggered by the big bang (interpreted as time) producing a universe where consciousness spawns. Why cannot the physical be the 'source' i.e. inanimate reactions producing consciousness (over vast time), which reached a certain critical mass and produced the astral, which housed the 'consciousness' of the deceased and spawned the subtler plains. I see no reason why this view of reality hasn't as much truth as a consciousness spawning denser plains until the physical is produced.

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I agree, but don't you have to be a little careful to first see if the person is truly pushing such quantum theories? In my case I was only making the point that spirituality can realistically no longer be considered weird since mainstream theories have surpassed many spiritual theories in the weirdness factor. Therefore, anyone considering such material theories should also consider the existence of group consciousness. But I can fully understand how one without the personal proof of obe's could resist such a theory. Hence, in that case, I would merely recommend such a person diligently work on obtaining at least several obe's per week and eventually obe experiments.

I apologise again if I seem to misinterpret what you were saying :smile:.  As yet, all my experienced to date have not validated the physical being created by a group consciousness, I'm actually seeing very little need for energy bodies and such (Monroe did remarkably well without his) and I'm finding many areas and actions of the astral as being belief generated (even if this belief is preconceptions or fears on a subconscious level).
I really do agree with you that people should work to gain their personal proof, but I still think the astral should have some trace in the physical which could be detected.

Sorry if this is indecipherable, I've just got back from a weekend away and didn't have much time to reply fully right now :smile: . I'll perhaps try to clean it up later.

QuoteI think that you have to believe . Just because it can't be proved doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. And i don't see why you can't continue just because no one has proved anything.

I agree totally. It's not about believing (or not) in the experience itself, but about what the experience truly is. There is a world of difference between an experience created in a flesh brain and a brain generated from belief in a shared consciousness.

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I think some things do exist but are difficult to prove. When OBE and related stuff are in question there is allways Kirlian photography coming to my mind. And I know some are proving it doesn't work or is not what we see. Still, I think of it as something closest to be the proof that those things are real. It's high frequency, high voltage device which captures emanations from our body onto a photo.
Besides, if there is enough will it can be researched and then used as a diagnostic tool in medicine just like x-ray for example. To me, it may prove existance of our energy body, which is basis for proving OBE?

Hey,

I'm very wary of kirilian photography and what it reports to show. A thread a while back discusses this:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21676&highlight=kirlian

Hi MisterJingo,

You have some good questions. I don't particularly understand a lot of the real details, but I'll just pass on what I was taught with my own added flavor.

First, I think what you call the brain is in reference to the physical brain. What I refer to as the mental is on a realm that is even higher in vibration than the astral.

I think you are correct in that the brain has consciousness. The thing is, we're multi-dimensional beings, so there's more to us than just physical brain and body. One thing meditation can teach is different types and levels of consciousness. Astral consciousness tends to be more on desires and emotions. Lower mental consciousness is more difficult to pin point and I have yet been able to put it in words, but for me it's more about creating. The upper mental is more about universal agape love. The intuitive plane as far as I vaguely know is about universal knowledge, but I'm really shooting in the dark on that one. The higher planes is far out of my reach.

Also I've noticed that when astral consciousness is reached during meditation that astral memories come to the front. In fact, in that state of consciousness you'll suddenly remember your astral friends. When you go back to physical consciousness you'll say, "Who the heck are those people."  If one is so fortunate enough to reach higher mental consciousness, then they'll recall their past lives. I'm told that the memories of past lives is within the Soul since it is the Soul that never dies in between incarnations where as your physical and astral bodies both eventually die, unless you become liberated.

As you've noted, the physical plane seems to far more stable and predictable than the astral. As I understand it, the reason is because the astral is closer to the mental planes than the physical. Therefore, astral energy is easy for the mind to manipulate. Yet this does not make the physical as you might seem. I hope one day you find a person or group that can clearly demonstrate to you just how the physical plane is. There you will see right up before you eyes how the physical plane can be just as manipulated as the astral. The physical is denser than the astral. What if you friend could stand right in front of you, inches, and then instantly vanish right before your eyes? What if your friend could instantly teleport clear across the globe? Perhaps then you think twice about the physical plane. Or what if your friend could fly in the air like Chris Angel.

On the other hand, the Astral can be predictable. Perhaps people initially confuse the astral with confusion because there might be a tv in the room one moment and if they look away and look back the tv is gone, lol.  The reason for that is clearly lack of obe time under their belt as such inconsistent experiences fade away over time.

I'm not sure mentalists do not use extra sensor perception. It is taught by the mentalist that if you look into the eyes that you can learn to draw what they are seeing. For example, you ask the person to think of a picture, and the mentalist is able to look into their eyes and get the picture. They teach that the persons eyes is outlining the picture. Have you seen Chriss Angel do this before? Some of the people are wearing dark glasses and he still gets it. Sometimes Chris turns around and still gets it. Personally I think it's extrasensory perception.

QuoteIf the physical is made by a group consciousness, then it is seated firmly in the astral and so something should be detectable of this - even if it is indirect proof, like suddenly someone overcoming the group belief and flying, or doing some amazing, seemingly miraculous act.

You mean like Chris Angel, lol. I can attest there are people who can break free from such beliefs. I don't know if Chris Angel is one, but I personally know of others. When they break free the local group belief they can fly, teleport, levitate, etc. The universal group consciousness does not dictate that you cannot fly around in physical bodies. In fact, you have an energy system the flows from the Divine and eventually makes it way to the Etheric and then trickles to the physical body. With that Etheric energy you could probably light up the world much less fly around. If you grew up on another physical planet where the society was spiritually advanced and you were taught that flying around was no big deal, then you would be able to fly. You fail because you doubt and every cell in your body and every part of your entire being believes it is impossible. You fail because you are surround by billions of similar people. They bind you to their reality. One day perhaps you will break free from this bondage, and there you'll be able to fly over fences, etc., but you'll learn that it is more difficult to perform this ability in front of people. Perhaps you'll begin to think you're crazy, until you find people of like mindedness where you can easily fly in their presence.

QuoteWhat I don't understand is that there really is no separation between the material and non-material universe. It has the same source, so why can't one detect the other?

I think you're right in that they come from the same source, but that source created universal laws. First, the physical and astral are separate universes. The physical plane is dominated by the law of opposite attraction. The astral is dominated by the law of like attracts like. The physical plane is dominated by the atom. The astral is dominated by the anim. I was told that anti matter is closest definition to the anim. Who knows, maybe dark matter is anim. ;-)  In that case, the astral does affect the physical plane, but to a minute degree, but on a grand scale of galaxies perhaps such forces become noticeable. I firmly believe the astral is detectable from the physical, but the question arises, "How to do it and how does the scientist know when it is astral energies and not Etheric or material?"

QuoteI really wonder what one with no intrinsic beliefs would find. We have an indication with Robert Monroe's journeys – which are radically different to any other authors to date

Well, Robert Monroe had the desire to bring his work to the world. I truly wish it was my right to send you a phone number of a person who could clearly show you that the astral is predicable, that 1000's of people leave their bodies and meet in designated astral locales each and every night, and how stable and predictable the astral can be. As irritating as this might sound, these people are always hidden from public eye. Perhaps you can tell me why. I can only tell you what I hear. That is, they understand the true nature of Karma, that the veil was placed over Earth for a very very good reason, that it is not their right or power to bring global proof right now. Although they say such proof will come to Earth, perhaps sooner than you think. :-)

Group consciousness ... I probably gave you the wrong impression. The group consciousness that I am referring to is far far far beyond the astral. It is beyond the mental. It is beyond the intuitive realm. In fact, you could say our entire cosmic realm is created and sustained in the eye of God, the collective consciousness. So the physical is not in the astral. They are separate parallel universes that simply abide by different universal laws.

QuoteI've been to locations where the inhabitants are very much like earthlings, yet, they cannot bend any 'physical' laws in their locale but I can. I fly and amaze the inhabitants, and seem not to be restricted by whatever beliefs created such a locale. So why are out[our] physical laws so unbend-able. What is special about our location in the astral? This really makes very little sense to me.

:-) Yes, and the astral inhabitants can bend our laws so easily when they wish. Most people in the higher astral realms can fly and outperform even advance out of body projectors. That's why they are your guides. Your guides usually follow you in the astral, until you become advanced, to keep you out of danger and trouble, but they simply maintain a higher vibration so that they are out of sink with you and in that way you cannot see them, but they can see you because they are higher in vibration. Although as you've found there seems to be many astral locals filled with people who can't even fly. This is due to their belief systems and limitations. Those are the mid astral realms. You don't want to go to the lower astral realms. Those are the astral hells. You'll probably want to go one day, when your guides think you are ready.

QuoteSomething else which really confuses me is people say the physical was created as a learning environment. Yet, in the astral, experience can be shared directly (i.e. Monroe's ROTE), rather than through the very inefficient 3rd hand method we have in the physical which seems to mangle shared knowledge rather than preserve it. If experience can be given directly on the astral as if one had gained that experience themselves, then why do we even need the physical?

As I'm taught, the Soul seeks experience and to express itself on all planes. One thing about karma is that it is easier to release it in the same universe that it was gained. So if you have physical plane karma, then you absolutely positively want to release as much as possible in the physical plane, not the astral. If you have a very small amount of physical plane karma left, then it is not uncommon for the Soul to call it quits on the physical plane and never ever reincarnate again on the physical and release the remaining physical plane karma in the astral, but it does take a long time to do so. The rules are simple. The Soul wants physical experience, so obviously physical plane karma will be gained. That physical plane karma must be release in the physical.

QuoteOn a similar vein, all spiritual practices seem to see enlightenment as a 'throwing off' of the human condition, rising above it, becoming more than it. With this viewpoint, we actually reduced ourselves in the physical, and we have to spend a lifetime (or many) trying to throw off what we gained by coming here i.e. we were more spiritually advanced by this definition before setting foot in the physical. All I can say is why? Seems like a pointless exercise. Some might argue that we learn invaluable knowledge here – yet, in the astral, energy follows thought – we literally can have anything or be anything – so the physical lessons seem pretty redundant.

They say we gain is experience. It's just part of spiritual evolution. Humanity here is in the bottom of the evolutionary process. We came from above and fell from heaven. There's no place to go now but up. All the other kingdoms on earth are still falling. Eventually they'll reach our stage, but in their own unique and different way, and they'll eventually rise again as we are. I think the problem occurs when we think in terms of time. I really don't understand time, but I'm taught that time does not exist as we think, that it is an illusion.

QuoteWhy couldn't the physical have started with no consciousness? Atrophy triggered by the big bang (interpreted as time) producing a universe where consciousness spawns. Why cannot the physical be the 'source' i.e. inanimate reactions producing consciousness (over vast time), which reached a certain critical mass and produced the astral, which housed the 'consciousness' of the deceased and spawned the subtler plains. I see no reason why this view of reality hasn't as much truth as a consciousness spawning denser plains until the physical is produced.

There is one thing for certain, in the highest sense, there was no beginning to anything. M-theory teaches that there was a beginning before the big bang. Sure, there might be a beginning to what we call time, but if so then there was another "time." Consider the highest sense of the word, "nothing." In that sense, you cannot have "nothing" and then suddenly "something." In that sense, this thing we call reality is infinity old. Can you grasp that? Infinity! No beginning! If you have infinity then you'd think that eventually perfection evolves. BUT, since there was no beginning, then it means this perfection has always existed. Think about it. This is exactly what some mystics have told us, that God has always existed, that the above was created before the lower. Material science still has it backwards. Scientists still believe that grander things came from basic matter. Yes, that is the way of the physical plane since it is a reflection of the spiritual planes, but it was the physical plane that was created by perfection and this plane is sustained by that perfection.
So in a nutshell, we're taught that ultimately this perfection / God / Collective has always existed, that the lower was created by the upper. In that pure and perfect state we willingly and decided to de-evolve and fall and place a veil over our memories. What scientists see is a minute picture of it all. They see the physical plane which is a reflection. On Earth the scientists see animals evolving. In spirit, it is the opposite. In the beginning our *Spirit* was perfect, but decided to willingly fall. It's almost like God got bored and decided to play. Who knows.

Inward

Hey Inward,

Thanks for taking the time to reply :smile:.

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First, I think what you call the brain is in reference to the physical brain. What I refer to as the mental is on a realm that is even higher in vibration than the astral.

I think you are correct in that the brain has consciousness. The thing is, we're multi-dimensional beings, so there's more to us than just physical brain and body. One thing meditation can teach is different types and levels of consciousness. Astral consciousness tends to be more on desires and emotions. Lower mental consciousness is more difficult to pin point and I have yet been able to put it in words, but for me it's more about creating. The upper mental is more about universal agape love. The intuitive plane as far as I vaguely know is about universal knowledge, but I'm really shooting in the dark on that one. The higher planes is far out of my reach.

Meditation has taught me a lot about myself, but I haven't seen a need to move these findings into an external construct (i.e. different planes).
For example, the most obvious layer of the mind is the surface layer, which is mainly occupied with day-to-day reality. The voice you hear on your mind (speaking to yourself, thinking etc) sits on this level. I think this layer relates to critical functioning of the higher brain.
The next level down I notice a layer of 'knowing'. For example, I can think to myself "I know, I'll go to town soon and buy a subway and go to Tesco's for some dinner". But, if you are observant enough, you find you already know what you were about to spend seconds thinking instantly. It's like we occupy the mind with the 'monkey chatter' and wash out the more intuitive knowledge. This layer is more the 'alpha' (passive observance brain wave state). Below this layer one sees emotional layers as we move awareness into the 'subconscious' areas of the mind, these are usually generated from the more primitive, animalistic areas of the brain. Below this layer still, as you said, we see increasingly abstract and creative areas. To me, this is simply moving away from specialised areas of the brain to the areas where data just 'is' i.e. data is experienced without filtering (such as 'this is sight data', 'this is touch data' etc). This is the layer where synesthesia is apparent, and is the source of our creativity. These layers are interlaced with curiosities, such as one noticing a 'gap' between the observer and the observed etc.
It seems to me, people have taken these natural brain areas, which sentiency allows us to observe, and they've created a map of creation – I guess taking on the adage 'as above, so below'. Philosophically speaking, I can see how this adage holds true, but this is more a case of we can only ever experience reality through our interpretation of it. So, while that star 50 billion light years away is constructed and experienced internally, it still has a reality external to the observer. The observer simply experiences his interpretation of it (rather than creates it).

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Also I've noticed that when astral consciousness is reached during meditation that astral memories come to the front. In fact, in that state of consciousness you'll suddenly remember your astral friends. When you go back to physical consciousness you'll say, "Who the heck are those people." If one is so fortunate enough to reach higher mental consciousness, then they'll recall their past lives. I'm told that the memories of past lives is within the Soul since it is the Soul that never dies in between incarnations where as your physical and astral bodies both eventually die, unless you become liberated.

I really can appreciate the above, and I did used to hold such views. But I came to the conclusion that my beliefs of such thing was really third hand. That is, I gained such beliefs from others and through books. I also noticed that my experiences reinforced such beliefs, not because such beliefs are inherently true, but because I interpreted my experiences through them. Such as now, my experiences reinforce my new set of beliefs (which are in conflict with what I used to believe). It really does seem we find what we seek, rather than find what is there.

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As you've noted, the physical plane seems to far more stable and predictable than the astral. As I understand it, the reason is because the astral is closer to the mental planes than the physical. Therefore, astral energy is easy for the mind to manipulate. Yet this does not make the physical as you might seem. I hope one day you find a person or group that can clearly demonstrate to you just how the physical plane is. There you will see right up before you eyes how the physical plane can be just as manipulated as the astral. The physical is denser than the astral. What if you friend could stand right in front of you, inches, and then instantly vanish right before your eyes? What if your friend could instantly teleport clear across the globe? Perhaps then you think twice about the physical plane. Or what if your friend could fly in the air like Chris Angel.

Regarding the physical planes position to other planes, this holds no truth outside of belief. For example, the physical is supposedly a group belief, so it would sit in the astral. How does this fit in with astral and mental planes? I.e. the physical is just astral energy, structured by a group consciousness in such a philosophy – there should be no separation between the physical and astral.

All I will say about Chris Angel is google him, as you too can do any of his tricks. He is a very talented showman, but all his techniques are 100% routed in the physical. Please go and research him and you will see he uses no extrasensory powers. This doesn't take away from what he does – perhaps adds to it.

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On the other hand, the Astral can be predictable. Perhaps people initially confuse the astral with confusion because there might be a tv in the room one moment and if they look away and look back the tv is gone, lol. The reason for that is clearly lack of obe time under their belt as such inconsistent experiences fade away over time.

I've been projecting since earliest childhood, and even now my experiences are pretty random and non-cohesive. Even gurus seem to have trouble with consistency – just read into Charles Tarts attempts to verify OBEs with amazingly proficient projectors and see how little they achieve.

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I'm not sure mentalists do not use extra sensor perception. It is taught by the mentalist that if you look into the eyes that you can learn to draw what they are seeing. For example, you ask the person to think of a picture, and the mentalist is able to look into their eyes and get the picture. They teach that the persons eyes is outlining the picture. Have you seen Chriss Angel do this before? Some of the people are wearing dark glasses and he still gets it. Sometimes Chris turns around and still gets it. Personally I think it's extrasensory perception.

All I can say is google Angel, Blane etc and learn exactly how they do their techniques through natural means. Also look into Derren Brown. He's a guy who does amazing things and freely admits he does nothing 'extra-sensory'. This once again comes back to people underestimating what the brain/mind can really do, and what information can be gleaned through body language alone. It also brings up a point I have seen many times, that is imbuing these people's techniques with psychic powers to fit a belief system. Such as once I saw a guy arguing that Derren brown must be a psychic but he just doesn't know it :shock:.

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You mean like Chris Angel, lol. I can attest there are people who can break free from such beliefs. I don't know if Chris Angel is one, but I personally know of others. When they break free the local group belief they can fly, teleport, levitate, etc. The universal group consciousness does not dictate that you cannot fly around in physical bodies. In fact, you have an energy system the flows from the Divine and eventually makes it way to the Etheric and then trickles to the physical body. With that Etheric energy you could probably light up the world much less fly around. If you grew up on another physical planet where the society was spiritually advanced and you were taught that flying around was no big deal, then you would be able to fly. You fail because you doubt and every cell in your body and every part of your entire being believes it is impossible. You fail because you are surround by billions of similar people. They bind you to their reality. One day perhaps you will break free from this bondage, and there you'll be able to fly over fences, etc., but you'll learn that it is more difficult to perform this ability in front of people. Perhaps you'll begin to think you're crazy, until you find people of like mindedness where you can easily fly in their presence.

I can't agree with this. For example, why do tribes in the Amazon who have just recently been contacted not have the ability of flight etc? They have been separated from our doubt, they don't know it. Why do children brought up in the wild away from all humans not have extra-powers? They really have had nothing but direct experience, and so nothing to fill their mind with doubt. They actually usually don't have coherent thought as they haven't learnt a structured language. Yet all cases of such happens have show people with the exact same attributes as us, following the exact same 'physical laws'. Why don't babies fresh from the womb not have special powers, is the group belief so great it immediately smothers he child's blank mind on birth? Why do we not find species of animal which we never knew existed with amazing powers, such as none-winged mammals having flight? New, unknown species are found regularly, they haven't had belief imposed on them (we never knew they existed), yet, they conform to the same laws as we do.
Also, centuries ago, when the Earth was supposedly flat, the heavens a crystal dome with stars embedded in it and the sun and planets orbited us – recorded observations of physical events match the same events today. Surely, the physical would have mirrored belief, and so certain things would have occurred differently dependant upon those beliefs. In today's world, where physical reality is radically different to such times, things still occur the same way (independently of belief systems it seems). It seems there is a lot more there than belief allows.
There are so many gaping holes in such a belief that I really can't follow it right now.
For example, a while back someone on these forums was stating food is a belief and not needed, that we can happily survive on sunlight. When asked why babies (belief-less) die in their thousands in Africa (plenty of sun 'energy'), they simply stated that all beings are bound by group belief. Such a belief which can never have any form of 'proof', and can be bent to encompass any critique due to this, just seems pretty 'fluffy'. It's no different from stating the flying spaghetti monster (http://www.venganza.org/) does it all. Such beliefs are dead-ends as they encompass everything and allow for nothing – and have no validity outside of personal belief and faith (which one must follow such a belief system to get validity of it – i.e. I don't follow it and none of my astral experiences have backed it up to me).

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I think you're right in that they come from the same source, but that source created universal laws. First, the physical and astral are separate universes. The physical plane is dominated by the law of opposite attraction. The astral is dominated by the law of like attracts like. The physical plane is dominated by the atom. The astral is dominated by the anim. I was told that anti matter is closest definition to the anim. Who knows, maybe dark matter is anim. ;-) In that case, the astral does affect the physical plane, but to a minute degree, but on a grand scale of galaxies perhaps such forces become noticeable. I firmly believe the astral is detectable from the physical, but the question arises, "How to do it and how does the scientist know when it is astral energies and not Etheric or material?"

But if the physical is a group belief created by group consciousness, it should therefore be seated in the astral. All I can gather from the above is that people created these separations between the physical and astral to create a cohesive belief system – to help explain the raging inconsistencies. So now a hierarchy is constructed of different energy frequencies, levels, beliefs etc.
anti-matter is a purely physical phenomenon. Answers as to why it is less prevalent than matter might be found in something called the 'sterile-neutrino' (although there are a number of other competing theories).
The thing is, energy is just energy. It doesn't have to be specifically astral energy and physical energy. Its just energy (the separation being man made). If it exists, it exist and should be detectable.

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Well, Robert Monroe had the desire to bring his work to the world. I truly wish it was my right to send you a phone number of a person who could clearly show you that the astral is predicable, that 1000's of people leave their bodies and meet in designated astral locales each and every night, and how stable and predictable the astral can be. As irritating as this might sound, these people are always hidden from public eye. Perhaps you can tell me why. I can only tell you what I hear. That is, they understand the true nature of Karma, that the veil was placed over Earth for a very very good reason, that it is not their right or power to bring global proof right now. Although they say such proof will come to Earth, perhaps sooner than you think. :-)

Well I belong to groups which are member only and consist of graduates of many of the Monroe institute programs, and I can tell you that none of them can consistently meet in astral locales, and that none of them know of people who can. These people are at the forefront of research into the astral, and such feats are outside of their abilities and knowledge. So I have no idea who these people are who can do such things, or why they remain hidden from the public eye. I've personally never seen evidence of them, so I'd be interested where you get this information from so I can start looking for them :smile:.

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Group consciousness ... I probably gave you the wrong impression. The group consciousness that I am referring to is far far far beyond the astral. It is beyond the mental. It is beyond the intuitive realm. In fact, you could say our entire cosmic realm is created and sustained in the eye of God, the collective consciousness. So the physical is not in the astral. They are separate parallel universes that simply abide by different universal laws.

The above again is a belief which can never be proven. And this is whay troubles me. It seems I need to turn off my intelligence, curiosity and critical mind if I ever want to accept such thigns as fact, because personally, warning bells scream out at me if I try and accept such things as truth. Such beliefs usually have a very 'human-centric' God, 'human-centric' organisation and hierarchy of reality etc – when in fact God (if such a concept truly exists) is so far beyond what human can ever conceive of as to be unknowable.

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-) Yes, and the astral inhabitants can bend our laws so easily when they wish. Most people in the higher astral realms can fly and outperform even advance out of body projectors. That's why they are your guides. Your guides usually follow you in the astral, until you become advanced, to keep you out of danger and trouble, but they simply maintain a higher vibration so that they are out of sink with you and in that way you cannot see them, but they can see you because they are higher in vibration. Although as you've found there seems to be many astral locals filled with people who can't even fly. This is due to their belief systems and limitations. Those are the mid astral realms. You don't want to go to the lower astral realms. Those are the astral hells. You'll probably want to go one day, when your guides think you are ready.

What I meant was, yes astral inhabitants might be able to bend our laws, but they cannot do so while inhabiting a physical body. I have been to locales where people seem as bound to 'physical laws' as we are in our reality, yet I can bend their laws in a body which can be seen by everyone of them. If the astral exists in the form we presume it does, a naked woman could be somersaulting above time square now and will been seen by no one. There are just huge inconsistencies in this philosophy.

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As I'm taught, the Soul seeks experience and to express itself on all planes. One thing about karma is that it is easier to release it in the same universe that it was gained. So if you have physical plane karma, then you absolutely positively want to release as much as possible in the physical plane, not the astral. If you have a very small amount of physical plane karma left, then it is not uncommon for the Soul to call it quits on the physical plane and never ever reincarnate again on the physical and release the remaining physical plane karma in the astral, but it does take a long time to do so. The rules are simple. The Soul wants physical experience, so obviously physical plane karma will be gained. That physical plane karma must be release in the physical.

I'll perhaps say something shocking now, but I don't believe karma is a universal law per-se. I have found karma to simply be a self-imposed belief system. That is ones action has effect. For example, to hate someone, I have to carry that hate inside. To love someone, I have to carry that love inside. It's simply a self-fulfilling mechanism controlled and enacted solely by us.

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They say we gain is experience. It's just part of spiritual evolution. Humanity here is in the bottom of the evolutionary process. We came from above and fell from heaven. There's no place to go now but up. All the other kingdoms on earth are still falling. Eventually they'll reach our stage, but in their own unique and different way, and they'll eventually rise again as we are. I think the problem occurs when we think in terms of time. I really don't understand time, but I'm taught that time does not exist as we think, that it is an illusion.

Again, this is belief. Evolution has no beginning, end, or goal. It's simply a process of mutation and change. No state being 'more evolved' than another. I don't see why we would need physical experience to do anything. It's like me sending a son off to hunt whales in the Antarctic to gain experience of becoming an accountant. What I mean by this is if we follow philosophies of the astral, the physical is an exception to the rule. It's unlike anything else. The only role I can see 'gaining experience' has is to fit the physical and it's purpose into such philosophies. I see the physical as just being as it is. Mechanical processes have brought it to the state it is today, and we just happen to be here now due to these processes. No purpose, lessons or reasons.

I fully agree time doesn't exist as we thing though, we interpreted it as we do purely because our brain has evolved to perceive it so.

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There is one thing for certain, in the highest sense, there was no beginning to anything. M-theory teaches that there was a beginning before the big bang. Sure, there might be a beginning to what we call time, but if so then there was another "time." Consider the highest sense of the word, "nothing." In that sense, you cannot have "nothing" and then suddenly "something." In that sense, this thing we call reality is infinity old. Can you grasp that? Infinity! No beginning! If you have infinity then you'd think that eventually perfection evolves. BUT, since there was no beginning, then it means this perfection has always existed. Think about it. This is exactly what some mystics have told us, that God has always existed, that the above was created before the lower. Material science still has it backwards. Scientists still believe that grander things came from basic matter. Yes, that is the way of the physical plane since it is a reflection of the spiritual planes, but it was the physical plane that was created by perfection and this plane is sustained by that perfection.

An aside I'd like to add is that we can get something from nothing (and this has been detected empirically), the background vacuum is filled with a broiling mass of virtual particles which constantly pop into and out of existence.
Problems I have with concepts of infinity is just that, they are concepts. There are mathematical infinities which mean nothing outside of the math. I also think that at our current stage in evolution, we simply do not have the faculties to conceive of such notions, which is perhaps why they seem so impossible and magical to us.
I also believe that perfection is a human concept and has no reality outside of that. Such as going to a point early that evolution is change, not change towards a perfect state, We might impose the concept of perfection on some states, just as we impose the concepts of good and evil, but outside of the human sphere, they hold no reality.

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So in a nutshell, we're taught that ultimately this perfection / God / Collective has always existed, that the lower was created by the upper. In that pure and perfect state we willingly and decided to de-evolve and fall and place a veil over our memories. What scientists see is a minute picture of it all. They see the physical plane which is a reflection. On Earth the scientists see animals evolving. In spirit, it is the opposite. In the beginning our *Spirit* was perfect, but decided to willingly fall. It's almost like God got bored and decided to play. Who knows.

Perhaps one day I will discover such things and have to reconsider all my beliefs, but for now, everything I'm finding is taking me away from such ideas and concepts.
I really do respect you and your beliefs, and I hope you don't think replies such as this are attacking them. I held such beliefs and have read deeply into such philosophies, but my own direct personal experience has taken me away from them and I have to be true to that. I cannot accept something because someone states that is the way it is, I have to discover for myself, and this is what I'm doing. To hold such beliefs as the above as true, I would have accept unverified knowledge as 'true'. And this is something I don't think I could swallow lightly.

I think this discussion might be deviating into belief territory which will never provide us with answers outside of our own experiences :smile:.

Hi MisterJingo,

I read you post and I agree the discussion is deviation. One thing I don't care for forums is the splitting effect. When two people continue to reply to each other then the next thing you know you end up with a zillion quotes, lol. I would be more interested if this did not occur. I think we each are looking for something different. I truly searched for real super humans, and found them. Perhaps you searched to disprove this, and found all the evidence to support your claim. As I am certain you know that I could reply to all your issues and yet once again correct them. From my point of view, you are misunderstanding the theory. So in my mind, I continually correct you and I clearly see the flaw in your thinking. Yet in your mind, I am sure you see the opposite.

In short, it seems we both found what we wanted. I think you are a scientifically minded person. All I can say is that I tried my best to study these people that I know and knew in a very scientific manner. With those studies and my personal experience, I come to another conclusion that you have. For example, you question if anyone can make the astral seem stable in obe's. Yet I have to question that perhaps you attract exactly what you want and repel what you do not want. For example, Jerry Gross makes the claim that you seem to think is impossible.

Oh well, may your journey be a great one!

Inward

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Hi MisterJingo,

I read you post and I agree the discussion is deviation. One thing I don't care for forums is the splitting effect. When two people continue to reply to each other then the next thing you know you end up with a zillion quotes, lol. I would be more interested if this did not occur. I think we each are looking for something different. I truly searched for real super humans, and found them. Perhaps you searched to disprove this, and found all the evidence to support your claim. As I am certain you know that I could reply to all your issues and yet once again correct them. From my point of view, you are misunderstanding the theory. So in my mind, I continually correct you and I clearly see the flaw in your thinking. Yet in your mind, I am sure you see the opposite.

Hey Inward,

All I am searching for is for answers regarding what I am, what reality is, the relationship between the two etc. I've been projecting since childhood, and so see projection as a natural method to accomplish this (Along with research in the physical).
I haven't ever had the need or inclination to search for super humans, so haven't disproved the possible existence of such beings.
The reason for my replying is that you brought quantum mechanical interpretations in – and the interpretation was incorrect. I understand the theory very well (in regards to such astral philosophies which you put across), but I just don't agree with it, as my own experiences counter what it claims. Also, man has bestowed such mystical meaning upon OBEs for probably as long as there has been man. The fact we are having such a discussion as this, and that no one knows what OBEs truly are shows there must be serious problems with those theories. I guess the argument about this will regard having to believe and never know – which I guess means we should not use words like theory :smile:.

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In short, it seems we both found what we wanted. I think you are a scientifically minded person. All I can say is that I tried my best to study these people that I know and knew in a very scientific manner. With those studies and my personal experience, I come to another conclusion that you have.

I'm not scientific minded as such. But we can either attempt to bring light to the subject of OBEs, or we can keep it as a niche interest of a few people and cover it in mystical and occult terminology (Which I don't think is necessary). I can happily drop all questioning and get lost in my own belief systems, answer questions on forums such as with mystical lingo. But in the long run, I don't think that would help anyone.

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For example, you question if anyone can make the astral seem stable in obe's. Yet I have to question that perhaps you attract exactly what you want and repel what you do not want. For example, Jerry Gross makes the claim that you seem to think is impossible.

I could perhaps agree with you if this was my own personal experience, but as I said, I have had correspondence with many who regularly attend the Monroe institute, and I'm a member of groups of proficient projectors. Yet, none of them can have consistent, stable or remotely similar shared OBEs (unless guided). I didn't set out with this belief, I set out with the opposite, but this is what I've found to date. So I don't see how this has had an effect on anything.

Personally, I think discussions like this can be productive, but perhaps in this instant not. You have to follow what you want to follow :smile:.
But, if you can project in a consistent manner, perhaps we should set up a meeting in a familiar astral locale? Or, get a group of us to do this, you using your knowledge and experience to guide us etc. We could then report back here and share stories. I'd be happy to attempt such a thing as this if you say you can truly do it.

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Oh well, may your journey be a great one!

and your journey too :smile:.

QuoteThe reason for my replying is that you brought quantum mechanical interpretations in – and the interpretation was incorrect.

Hold on there. That's not fair since you have not corrected me on anything yet. I already point out that you made assumptions. :-)

So please, by all means, lets see my incorrect QM interpretation.

Inward

Hello there,

QuoteThe fact we are having such a discussion as this, and that no one knows what OBEs truly are shows there must be serious problems with those theories.

According to that logic then there must be serious problems with all things known to man since you will find similar discussions about any topic amongst humanity.

OK, here's the deal. In the highest sense of the word, nothing is provable because you always say, "what if you're dreaming right now." One could say, "I drop the ball and the ball falls, therefore the ball exists." No, because you do not know if you are dreaming. Perhaps the only thing one can be certain of is their own consciousness.

QuoteI could perhaps agree with you if this was my own personal experience, but as I said, I have had correspondence with many who regularly attend the Monroe institute, and I'm a member of groups of proficient projectors. Yet, none of them can have consistent, stable or remotely similar shared OBEs (unless guided).

But has it occurred to you that such people do not want to become public eye? It has been my experience that nearly all these type of people learn early on that it is not in the best interest to publicize such a group or ability. It fact, I believe people such as Jerry Gross are a rarity, but it is Jerry's karma to work with the public.

Inward

Quote from: Inward

QuoteThe reason for my replying is that you brought quantum mechanical interpretations in – and the interpretation was incorrect.

Hold on there. That's not fair since you have not corrected me on anything yet. I already point out that you made assumptions. :-)

So please, by all means, lets see my incorrect QM interpretation.

Inward

Well firstly you were making claims to quantum theory which states people's expectations effect the outcome. I asked what theory this is, and you never replied.
Trying to get an answer to this question, I wrote that the only part of QM that states an observer has effect on an experiment is the uncertainty principle (the intention is moot, and it looks like a sentient observer might be unneeded too). You then said this isn't true, and once again ignored the question when I asked what theory you were describing. The fact you mentioned the many world interpretation (which was created to describe the effects of the uncertainty principle – as seen in the double slit experiment) in the same space as this theory either points to misdirection or misinterpretation.
So again, what theory are you referring to in which a person's positive or negative outlook affects the experiments results? If you were indeed referring to the UP, then your interpretation was incorrect. If you were referring to another experiment and area of QM, then I am genuinely interested to hear of it as I've overlooked it in all my reading and research to date.

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According to that logic then there must be serious problems with all things known to man since you will find similar discussions about any topic amongst humanity.

Not so. According to this logic, we have moved illness away from spirits, demons and other mischievous paranormal entities which were blamed for such illnesses (and birth defects) and have now placed its action in bacteria, diet, genetic errors etc.
Even rudimentary research will show countless examples of how seemingly paranormal phenomenon was found to have 'natural' means of action, where once, such phenomenon was seen to be at the hands of the same constructs which are still used to describe a lot of paranormal phenomenon.
I believe our understanding of what OBEs are will become a lot more detailed once we leave speculative belief behind and really look into it in a consistent manner.
If you miss the point of the above, I'm saying that areas where we dropped the supernatural interpretations and started looking into their true nature, we have advanced more in a hundred years then in ten thousand years of unquestioning belief.
I also think that if certain explanations are leaving the vast majority in the dark after thousands of years, we might have to reconsider those explanations – or at least be open to the possibility they hold little or no truth.

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OK, here's the deal. In the highest sense of the word, nothing is provable because you always say, "what if you're dreaming right now." One could say, "I drop the ball and the ball falls, therefore the ball exists." No, because you do not know if you are dreaming. Perhaps the only thing one can be certain of is their own consciousness.

Unless we follow a solipsist outlook, I think things can be proven to a very high level of certainty. Most of modern society is based upon technology and ideas which have proven consistent enough for us to have accomplished what we have to date.

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But has it occurred to you that such people do not want to become public eye? It has been my experience that nearly all these type of people learn early on that it is not in the best interest to publicize such a group or ability. It fact, I believe people such as Jerry Gross are a rarity, but it is Jerry's karma to work with the public.

Well I find it very sad that people would rather keep such knowledge and experience to themselves (by my own outlook, this doesn't come across as very advanced) and let the rest of the world suffer (but I guess this is karma, so its alright not to help others right?).

Note to self...

Don't ever get into a debate with MrJingo! :doh:  :lol:

Quote from: jub jubNote to self...

Don't ever get into a debate with MrJingo! :doh:  :lol:

:lol: when I get involved in these discussions, i'm actually arguing with my own beliefs and views as much as those put across by Inward :smile:. I seem to fluctuate between spiritual (belief driven) viewpoints, and more scientific ('objective' orientated) viewpoints - and discussions like this really do help me - I think i'm going through a more objective phase right now. I Hope Inward isn't taking anything i'm saying personally - because I am getting a lot from it, and don't mean any disrespect.
I'm not being negative for the sake of it. Both scientific  and spiritual theory has holes in it if one looks hard enough - and I like to (need to?) pull at those holes.

Hello MisterJingo,

I thought we agreed this discussion is now off topic. ;)

Quote from: MisterJingoWell firstly you were making claims to quantum theory which states people's expectations effect the outcome.

No I did not say QM makes such claims nor did I state QM proves such an idea.

Quote from: MisterJingoI asked what theory this is, and you never replied.

I told you exactly why I mentioned QM. Again, people should have no problem or guilt considering spiritual theories because most accepted interpretations of QM such as MWI have surpassed many spiritual theories in the weirdness factor.

Quote from: MisterJingoSo again, what theory are you referring to in which a person's positive or negative outlook affects the experiments results?

There are a lot of spiritual teachings on this, but the teacher I followed is not public so there would be no name I can give you. :-(  I thought that was clear.
As far as studying the effects from groups there are many. The Princeton University Global Consciousness Project for one. I witnessed one of their experiments on a radio show that broadcasts to millions of live listeners. They asked the audience to focus on their Quantum Random generators, called Eggs, that are spread all over the world at universities. The next day they published the results and it showed a clear spike in the time graph when the audience focused. The purely quantum randomness can suddenly become random in such cases. The study of such effects from groups of people are well studied. The problem here is that it is not 100% predictable and still remains a mystery as to why it is not always predictable. It always seems that there is just not quite enough understanding why it is mysterious or unpredictable to make it a provable material science. Yet, anyone with a brain will know that the odds of there being a huge obvious spike in the graph at the exact same moment when the people focused on it is outrageous. They know something is happening. They just can't get a grasp as to what is happening. Again, I am told that it will always be this way until the global consciousness on Earth is ready to entertain the idea of global proof. Don't shoot the messenger, lol.

Studies on the effects of single people are also well known, as in the case of prayer. I think perhaps you should reconsider that the physical plane is not meaningless unintelligent particles unaffected by consciousness. As you agreed, you cannot prove with 100% certainty that your reality is nothing more than a dream. Yet from my point of view, I found people who have made sense of the universe, who have proven to me without doubt they are the real deal, and in my case I'd have to be stupid to go back to all the questioning and doubting and searching of such simple ideas. Sure, I still and always will seek high forms of truth. Here's an example. Consider some medical teachers at a university. Would you expect a student to question such teachers and go off on their own tangent trying to invent better medical theories? SURE, there will always be better theories, but it would be very advantageous of the student to accept present medical theories. When they studied such theories, then they can expand upon those theories.

So perhaps it is true as they say, that mind effects the astral to much higher degree because as stated the astral is closer to the mental planes than the physical plane is to mental planes. Perhaps it is true as they say that the physical plane is far denser than the astral. Yet that does not mean the physical plane cannot be manipulated by consciousness.

Quote from: MisterJingo

QuoteAccording to that logic then there must be serious problems with all things known to man since you will find similar discussions about any topic amongst humanity.

Not so. According to this logic, we have moved illness away from spirits, demons and other mischievous paranormal entities which were blamed for such illnesses (and birth defects) and have now placed its action in bacteria, diet, genetic errors etc.

No, no, no. You're changing the subject. I'll put your quote back in once again,

Quote from: MisterJingoThe fact we are having such a discussion as this, and that no one knows what OBEs truly are shows there must be serious problems with those theories.

Just because we are having a discussion on this topic does not mean there must be serious problems with these theories, lol. That should be without question.

Quote from: MisterJingoEven rudimentary research will show countless examples of how seemingly paranormal phenomenon was found to have 'natural' means of action, where once, such phenomenon was seen to be at the hands of the same constructs which are still used to describe a lot of paranormal phenomenon.
I believe our understanding of what OBEs are will become a lot more detailed once we leave speculative belief behind and really look into it in a consistent manner.

When you understand group/collective consciousness theories then you see how it explains why such things become inconsistent when trying to provide globabal proof. It is silly to discount such a theory because it seems like a copout in your mind. Global proof will not happen yet. You seem to keep trying to find global proof.

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree. Call me a lier, call me delusional, lol, call as you wish, but I have my personal proof. From my point of view Earth is a school. Call it a drama play, a playground, a sandbox, or whatever. Would you expect the teacher to give all the students the answers during the test? Why would such spiritual teachers suddenly reveal themselves right now and say, "Hey people, here's your global proof. Opps, sorry that I just destroyed all your opportunities for spiritual growth in an environment where beings chose to incarnate in an environment where there is a veil over the memories."  :-)

Quote from: MisterJingoIf you miss the point of the above, I'm saying that areas where we dropped the supernatural interpretations and started looking into their true nature, we have advanced more in a hundred years then in ten thousand years of unquestioning belief.

You are assuming that all mystical teachings are incorrect. Sorry, but even though a great deal of mystical teaching are incorrect, doesn't mean they are all incorrect.

Quote from: MisterJingo

QuoteBut has it occurred to you that such people do not want to become public eye? It has been my experience that nearly all these type of people learn early on that it is not in the best interest to publicize such a group or ability. It fact, I believe people such as Jerry Gross are a rarity, but it is Jerry's karma to work with the public.

Well I find it very sad that people would rather keep such knowledge and experience to themselves (by my own outlook, this doesn't come across as very advanced) and let the rest of the world suffer (but I guess this is karma, so its alright not to help others right?).

Humanity on Earth is not exactly all that responsible in totality, yet. Yet even in the present state of the U.S. it is our scientists objective to keep interference with primitive tribes to a minimum!!!  The old tv series "Star Trek: The Next Generation" consulted with scientists. Even they thought that advanced humanity would not interfere with primitive cultures. Perhaps you should consider that the universe is infinitely old, that there are and always have been beings watching over us, and that Earth is a school. :razz:

Wishing you best,
Inward

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Quote from: misterjingo
Well firstly you were making claims to quantum theory which states people's expectations effect the outcome.

No I did not.

You clearly did:

Quote from: Inward
Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail.

This was on page three, and is the only reason I posted here. Are you really saying the above doesn't state negativity and disbelief affects the outcome of the experiment?

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I told you exactly why I mentioned QM. Again, people should have no problem or guilt considering spiritual theories because most accepted interpretations of QM such as MWI have surpassed many spiritual theories in the weirdness factor.

You mentioned QM giving the above example. Skewing QM interpretations to such a degree is what spawns many of the sites claiming such (misinterpreted) science as proof of outlandish theories. Going down that route won't get us anywhere.
I fully agree things like the MWI are outlandish, but the MWI is purely an idea with no empirical evidence to back it up.

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There are a lot of spiritual teachings on this, but the teacher I followed is not public so there would be no name I can give you. :-( I thought that was clear.
As far as studying the effects from groups there are many. The Princeton University Global Consciousness Project for one. I witnessed one of their experiments on a radio show that broadcasts to millions of live listeners. They asked the audience to focus on their Quantum Random generators, called Eggs, that are spread all over the world at universities. The next day they published the results and it showed a clear spike in the time graph when the audience focused. The purely quantum randomness because predictable. The study of such effects from groups of people are well studied. The problem here is that it is not 100% predictable and still remains a mystery as to why it is not always predictable. It always seems that there is just not quite enough understanding why it is mysterious or unpredictable to make it unprovable. Yet, anyone with a brain will know that the odds of there being a huge obvious spike in the graph at the exact same moment when the people focused on it is outrageous. They know something is happening. They just can't get a grasp as to what is happening. Again, it will always be this way until the global consciousness on Earth is ready to entertain the idea of global proof.

Thinks like this are interesting and could lead us a lot further towards whatever truths might be out there than any amount of theorising things grounded in belief.

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Studies on the effects of single people are also well known, as in the case of prayer.

And there have been recent studies which showed ill people who were prayed for (and knew it) actually recovered a lot slower than control groups who had no people praying for them, or who had people praying for them but didn't know it.

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I think perhaps you should reconsider that the physical plane is not meaningless unintelligent particles unaffected by consciousness. As you agreed, you cannot prove with 100% certainty that your reality is nothing more than a dream. Yet from my point of view, I found people who have made sense of the universe, who have proven to me without doubt they are the real deal, and in my case I'd have to be stupid to go back to all the questioning and doubting and searching of such simple ideas. Sure, I still and always will seek high forms of truth. Here's an example. Consider some medical teachers at a university. Would you expect a student to question such teachers and go off on their own tangent trying to invent better medical theories? SURE, there will always be better theories, but it would be very advantageous of the student to accept present medical theories. When they studied such theories, then they can expand upon those theories.

It's not about inventing better theories. In your example, the medical theories can be researched by the student, and they can see why those theories were reached using objective (shareable) methods. Most spiritual philosophies expect one to give up all questioning (except for with the philosophical framework presented), and present nothing by belief. People following such philosophies only have their own subjective experiences (based within a framework). You can tell me how you've had proof given to you personally, and I can point you to people such as Derren Brown who can give people such proofs using natural means too. An interesting example is when he used a doll to take complete control of a woman – he took control because the women's belief system allowed it. In her eyes, some deep, paranormal belief had been validated – yet that validation was not paranormal in the slightest. This is where the problem lies. For every psychic out there doing amazing things, we are getting to a point where those exact same things can be achieved naturally – so they give no proof of anything greater than reality.
My entire experience of all this is that the beliefs and philosophies mean nothing. They are a prop for the mind. Such as in ritual magick, the ceremonies, incantations, objects, alters etc are simply tools to focus the mind in a specific way to achieve the intended result. The mind does the work, not the philosophy behind the ceremonies and beliefs.
I could build belief systems and progress within them. But I see that as missing the point. I want to move beyond belief systems to the core of it. See what is actually achieving these feats, rather than experiencing that source as filtered through enforced beliefs.

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No, no, no. You're changing the subject. I'll put your quote back in once again,

Quote from: misterjingo
The fact we are having such a discussion as this, and that no one knows what OBEs truly are shows there must be serious problems with those theories.

Just because we are having a discussion on this topic does not mean there must be serious problems with these theories, lol. That should be without question.

My point was many theories which are around to date have their roots in ancient Egypt and earlier (many being given a modern slant by groups such as the Golden Dawn). These theories have been around a very long time. The point of a theory is to describe something. Yet 2000+ years on, in an age where we can describe the world in unprecedented (staggering) detail, we are still arguing based upon belief rather than things with objective fact. Not only that, there exists many groups with their own view of creation and how it all fits together. Nothing in the model concerning chakras, energy bodies, astral/mental planes etc puts it above these other theories. How long should we give something before we look elsewhere, or consider the possibility we need to look elsewhere?

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When you understand group/collective consciousness theories then you see how it explains why such things become inconsistent when trying to provide globabal proof. It is silly to discount such a theory because it seems like a copout in your mind. Global proof will not happen yet. You seem to keep trying to find global proof.

Again we'll just have to agree to disagree. Call me a lier, call me delusional, lol, call as you wish, but I have my personal proof. From my point of view Earth is a school. Call it a drama play, a playground, a sandbox, or whatever. Would you expect the teacher to give all the students the answers during the test? Why would such spiritual teachers suddenly reveal themselves right now and say, "Hey people, here's your global proof. Opps, sorry that I just destroyed all your opportunities for spiritual growth in an environment where beings chose to incarnate in an environment where there is a veil over the memories." :-)

Yes but there is absolutely nothing what-so-ever apart from belief to suggest a group/collective unconsciousness exists. I really did believe this, I believed the Earth-life system was a learning environment, and if you do search on my early posts here – you'll see I'm speaking the truth. I actually took the position you are now against many a sceptic who posted here.
What I realised is these were beliefs and not knowns, I looked at all my knowledge and was shocked to see how much I didn't know personally, and how much 'third-hand' knowledge I took as absolute. Couple this with a lifetime of OBEs, and intimate experience of how belief dictates experience (so you might project and find this group consciousness, yet others don't). I also have corresponded with many 'Gurus' in this field, and know many proficient projectors – and as my experience grows I come to realise they have no answers, they are exactly like me, looking for answers and fitting them into the belief systems they carry. I respect immensely anyone with an interest in this field.
There is really too much wrong with these theories right now (including my own experience) to follow it as a known. So I moved them from 'knowns' to possibilities.

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You are assuming that all mystical teachings are incorrect. Sorry, but even though a great deal of mystical teaching are incorrect, doesn't mean they are all incorrect.

I agree it doesn't mean they are all incorrect. But many people believe them blindly, and I choose not to do that. I think being a bit sceptical is healthier in the long run than jumping head first into a belief system without any research or critical thought.

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Humanity on Earth is not exactly all that responsible in totality, yet. Yet even in the present state of the U.S. it is our scientists objective to keep interference with primitive tribes to a minimum!!! The old tv series "Star Trek: The Next Generation" consulted with scientists. Even they thought that advanced humanity would not interfere with primitive cultures. Perhaps you should consider that the universe is infinitely old, that there are and always have been beings watching over us, and that Earth is a school.

I can agree we are not all that responsible, but I think we have a lot of potential as a species. But for the rest, right now they are simply possibilities (as I see no evidence for it – but that in itself doesn't rule it out) in my outlook. Perhaps in the future that will change.

Hi MisterJingo,

Quote from: MisterJingo

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Quote from: misterjingo
Well firstly you were making claims to quantum theory which states people's expectations effect the outcome.

No I did not.

You clearly did:

Quote from: Inward
Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail.

MisterJingo, I will ask again, where do I state this effect is Quantum Mechanics??? Your accusation is clear. I never stated QM describes any such material interaction from consciousness. My statement is regarding my understanding of the universe as I am taught.

Quote from: MisterJingoAnd there have been recent studies which showed ill people who were prayed for (and knew it) actually recovered a lot slower than control groups who had no people praying for them, or who had people praying for them but didn't know it.

Perhaps you found what you wanted. If you research this you should find that in most cases prayer results positive results. :-)

Quote from: MisterJingoYou can tell me how you've had proof given to you personally, and I can point you to people such as Derren Brown who can give people such proofs using natural means too.You can tell me how you've had proof given to you personally, and I can point you to people such as Derren Brown who can give people such proofs using natural means too.

No comparison between Derren Brown and my friend. You've made some strong claims about Chris Angel. So show me the published details of Chris Angels top wow tricks such as how he walked through glass.

Quote from: MisterJingoFor every psychic out there doing amazing things, we are getting to a point where those exact same things can be achieved naturally – so they give no proof of anything greater than reality.

You have it backwards. I really think your understanding is being left behind and is classical physics. M-theorist are now stating that it is possible to create a new universe from hardly nothing. They say it will start as a bubble and it will grow at unimaginable rate. Yes, these are experiments they are thinking about. I am sorry, but I really see your idea as old school, classical physics. Each and every year there are more scientists doing metaphysical studies of supernatural phenomena and with some good results. I wouldn't be surprised if such proof becomes global within 20 years.

Quote from: MisterJingoFor every psychic out there doing amazing things, we are getting to a point where those exact same things can be achieved naturally – so they give no proof of anything greater than reality.

How do you explain the Princeton University Global Consciousness Project?

Quote from: MisterJingoHow long should we give something before we look elsewhere, or consider the possibility we need to look elsewhere?

Perhaps a great deal of people have become liberated from the physical plane from such teachings? Just because your consciousness has repelled you away from such people does not mean they do not exists. Again, you are looking for global evidence. I recommend you try to discover hardcore proof on a small group level because there is a very real force that prevents such proof occurring globally. If you put forth the energy in searching and drop all your skepticism, doubt, and negativity then you will probably find such a group. If you go in with the intentions of publicizing this on a global scale then according to the theory you'll failed before you even begin. ;-)

Quote from: MisterJingoYes but there is absolutely nothing what-so-ever apart from belief to suggest a group/collective unconsciousness exists.

Did it occur to you that *you* found "absolutely nothing what-so-ever apart from belief to suggest a group/collective unconsciousness exists." I certainly found something.

Quote from: MisterJingoWhat I realised is these were beliefs and not knowns, I looked at all my knowledge and was shocked to see how much I didn't know personally, and how much 'third-hand' knowledge I took as absolute.

Yes, but haven't you noticed an obvious difference between our stories? You might consider that some people have become personal friends with people who can stand right before their eyes and teleport across the globe? I am telling right now as direct as possible, there are people on the physical plane who can teleport across the globe. The physical plane is not as you think. Yes, it is a dense plane, thousands times more difficult to manipulate than astral energy, but there are people who have dropped the disbeliefs, all the doubt, the negativity, and they can do it.

Quote from: MisterJingoThere is really too much wrong with these theories right now (including my own experience) to follow it as a known.

I am not sure what you are talking about since I have so far corrected and made logical sense out of all your problems with the theory that I presented.

Quote from: MisterJingoI agree it doesn't mean they are all incorrect. But many people believe them blindly, and I choose not to do that.

That brings up a good point. Does it really bother you in some way that some people are so blindly following a philosophy? Have you ever considered that they are utilizing another part of consciousness that is beyond mental, called Intuition? Yes, I know, intuition is highly undeveloped in nearly all people. Yet, consider that these people are exercising their intuitive body. As long as they are not using such intuition to judge others it is fine. Lets let them be and allow them to enjoy this energy of intuition.

Inward

Another thing I think is wack is that our "Etheric Bodies" do separate from our bodies. (Like with the whole thing that it floats above us when we sleep == should be detectable)

It's like removing a power supply from a computer, you do that and it's dead. Unlike hardware, which does not deteriorate from a lack of a PSU, a human body will deteriorate until the parts can no longer function properly even with our Etheric Bodies attached.

But maybe our brain can make the "projectable double," but that would mean a second Etheric Body.

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MisterJingo, I will ask again, where do I state this effect is Quantum Mechanics??? Your accusation is clear. I never stated QM describes any such material interaction from consciousness. My statement is regarding my understanding of the universe as I am taught.

The fact you first started talking about quantum mechanics, then a few paragraphs later mention 'researchers' in regards to this theory, implies you are attributing this theory to scientists rather than to a belief created by mystics. To a person reading it gives a false impression. Having a belief is one thing, implying science has backed up that belief is another. If such a link wasn't your intention, then it makes sense. But to people reading, the link was implied.

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Perhaps you found what you wanted. If you research this you should find that in most cases prayer results positive results. :-)

I haven't found anything. I am not looking into areas such as faith healing; I simply come across such research in my day to day life. The latest research didn't find prayer created positive results (quite the opposite when the subject knew they were being prayer for), which I did find interesting. Previous research could have been flawed, or this research could have been flawed. That is the point, it suggests basing views on such results will result in flawed views – because there is no definite answer (outside of belief).

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No comparison between Derren Brown and my friend. You've made some strong claims about Chris Angel. So show me the published details of Chris Angels top wow tricks such as how he walked through glass.

Firstly I haven't and wouldn't make claims about your friends as I don't know them. I simply point out that people are achieving feats through natural means which others attribute to paranormal activity.

Well his walking through glass trick, here are a number of ways which can be utilised to achieve this trick:

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This is a great illusion but requires tons of set-up.
1. the "paper holders" are in on it. They hold the paper in a way so as not to press against the glass
2. The "found" paper was planted, and is ridgid enough to be held taut
3. The glass is actually cut to the shape of the letter "U", with the open end of the "u" on the bottom--an upside-down "u"
4. The open sign is not attached to the glass, but is fixed to look as though it is.
5. The "U" shaped cut is critical because it shows the solid glass on both sides of the paper, BUT NOT THE BOTTOM. Holding the paper so that it covers the bottom of the window frame is critical- it makes or breaks the trick--as well a positioning the paper so that glass is visible on both sides of it
6. The next critical thing is CLEAN GLASS. It must be spotless, immaculate, otherwise you would see a dirtline or lint rising up as the glass is pulled up into the specially made frame. This is why the paper holders don't press the paper against the glass--they must hold it just off from the glass and not touch the glass with their hands or the paper.
7. Its a great illusion

A U shaped piece of glass is not needed if the window is a sash-window. The people holding the paper are in on it, and if you watch closesly, you'll see how perspective of the camera is used to make the trick seem more solid. On one video of this, if you are perceptive, you can actually see the window moving (the glass must not be 100% uniform, so you see the minute change is reflection).

or

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Very old trick, been used for over 50 years(though usually just a hand but concept still the same). The glass actually extends down through the wall, the trick is the bottom half has a hole in the middle, put the piece of paper over it and an accomplice slides the glass up, push through the hole give your TADA's while your accomplice slides the glass back down, tap the glass and prove that it is solid.

Very impressive. Very natural. Look into his levitation techniques and the devices he uses to accomplish them. You too can buy these devises, and learn how to do these tricks (although it will take lot of practice to pull them off).

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You have it backwards. I really think your understanding is being left behind and is classical physics. M-theorist are now stating that it is possible to create a new universe from hardly nothing. They say it will start as a bubble and it will grow at unimaginable rate. Yes, these are experiments they are thinking about. I am sorry, but I really see your idea as old school, classical physics. Each and every year there are more scientists doing metaphysical studies of supernatural phenomena and with some good results. I wouldn't be surprised if such proof becomes global within 20 years.

Please link me to papers on growing a universe from nothing, as I read deeply into such areas and find nothing of the sort. M-theory is simply a way of tying together the various branches of string theory into one common place. It adds an extra dimension (theoretical) to allow the theories to co-exist. M-Theory in and of itself is pure theoretical right now, with no idea how to even empirically prove parts of it (outside of mathematics). If you know so much about M-Theory, you would also know the growing unrest scientists are having in it as a framework of a TOE.
My understanding is nowhere near classical physics, as my interests lie in QM, ST etc.

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How do you explain the Princeton University Global Consciousness Project?

Well the fact is this project hasn't really much to explain right now (please link me to papers which state otherwise and I'll happily concede). It simply collects random data from a number of sources and correlates it. I've read a lot of lies about this project, such as stating its predicted future events (no it hasn't).
You are also misunderstanding my stance. I am not saying everything can be explained (the world would be pretty dull if it could), I'm saying most people drop at the first hurdle of research and belief the 'magical thinking' ideas, rather then open their mind a bit more and look further. I'm saying many things which are even now taken to be psychic phenomenon on the net has a natural means of action (I've lost count of the number of sites giving retinal fatigue as an example of proof of auras).

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Perhaps a great deal of people have become liberated from the physical plane from such teachings? Just because your consciousness has repelled you away from such people does not mean they do not exists. Again, you are looking for global evidence. I recommend you try to discover hardcore proof on a small group level because there is a very real force that prevents such proof occurring globally. If you put forth the energy in searching and drop all your skepticism, doubt, and negativity then you will probably find such a group. If you go in with the intentions of publicizing this on a global scale then according to the theory you'll failed before you even begin. ;-)

You state the point exactly. One has to drop everything, and believe fully in a group to get proof. The problem with this is, utter belief in a group environment can create many amazing things through the acts of suggestion and shared belief. This proves nothing outside of the group.
What is this real force that prevents it globally, why does it prevent it globally, why does something repel people from such groups unless they drop critical thought and become believing followers?
The above amounts to "only believers will get the answers (as dictated by that belief)". It really means nothing.

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Did it occur to you that *you* found "absolutely nothing what-so-ever apart from belief to suggest a group/collective unconsciousness exists." I certainly found something.

And did it occur to you that you found something because that's where your belief lay? Your finding something holds no greater truth or reality than my finding nothing. Do you see the problem with this? In physical reality, my neighbour can deny the existence of trees all he wants, but that wont make the trees go away. But I guess this is explained away by other beliefs regarding various planes and being repelled by unseen forces for whatever reason.

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Yes, but haven't you noticed an obvious difference between our stories? You might consider that some people have become personal friends with people who can stand right before their eyes and teleport across the globe? I am telling right now as direct as possible, there are people on the physical plane who can teleport across the globe. The physical plane is not as you think. Yes, it is a dense plane, thousands times more difficult to manipulate than astral energy, but there are people who have dropped the disbeliefs, all the doubt, the negativity, and they can do it.

Well please come teleport to me. Then I will believe. But I guess that can't happen because it has to remain secret right?
Dropping all disbeliefs doesn't change reality. We are not bound by belief, we are bound by natural law. You never even answered any of my critiques against such points of belief changing reality in previous posts.

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I am not sure what you are talking about since I have so far corrected and made logical sense out of all your problems with the theory that I presented.

You haven't answered about 90% of what I asked you, especially concerning why people/animals etc with no belief are still seemingly bound by the exact same laws that we are. You simply missed all those parts out, and countless others. You have also not made any logical sense – I really cannot see how logic can be applied to beliefs which are the sole domain of one person i.e. there is no way of showing those beliefs hold truth outside of the person holding them in these philosophies.

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That brings up a good point. Does it really bother you in some way that some people are so blindly following a philosophy? Have you ever considered that they are utilizing another part of consciousness that is beyond mental, called Intuition? Yes, I know, intuition is highly undeveloped in nearly all people. Yet, consider that these people are exercising their intuitive body. As long as they are not using such intuition to judge others it is fine. Lets let them be and allow them to enjoy this energy of intuition.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. It only bothers me when people try and claim those beliefs as a universal truth – rather to conceding the point they are personal beliefs.

Hi blade5x,

Actually it's commonly know in metaphysics that only part of the Etheric body leaves during projection. If all of it left then you would die as you suggested.

Inward

Perhaps there is no Etheric Body, just consciousness.

Why does consciousness have to be mobile and why does it need a body?

Ever use Google Earth? You can go anywhere in the world without moving your body. I believe that our consciousness is the same way. If we want to see something we focus our attention to it. No need for travel!

I believe that consciousness is everywhere at once. It's multidimensional and transcends both time and space. It is the fourth dimension.

Don't ask me where this came from, a voice in my head told me to type this. :lol:

Quote from: jub jubPerhaps there is no Etheric Body, just consciousness.

Why does consciousness have to be mobile and why does it need a body?

Ever use Google Earth? You can go anywhere in the world without moving your body. I believe that our consciousness is the same way. If we want to see something we focus our attention to it. No need for travel!

This idea is similar to the phasing model of AP. That is, everything is interpreted through consciousness (this doesn't necessarily mean consciousness is everywhere though :wink:). Such as the physical is simply one point on the spectrum of consciousness (so are all the other places/planes in creation). Going OOB is simply shifting (phasing) our attention from the physical to another location.

I remember reading about a profound NDE awhile back that really rang true to me. In this particular NDE the person was in space talking with another entity about the workings of the Universe. He said he was able to expand his consciousness to the point where he could feel and know the thoughts of everyone on the planet earth. He even went so far as to expand his perception even more and realized he could read and feel the thoughts of people on other planets! I know how crazy this sounds.

I read about another NDE where a father was white water rafting with his two daughters and drowned in a rapid. When his spirit exited his body, he was floating above the rapid and he could feel the desperation of his daughters to get him out of the water. He expanded his consciousness more and he could feel how happy and content the birds in the surrounding trees were just to be sitting there singing. He also stated that he could expand this awareness out as far as he cared to go but didn't care to because of the situation at hand.

Another story, in the book "Embraced by the Light" by Betty Eadie, she mentions when she was in the garden she saw a beautiful rose. When she looked at it she felt as though she went inside and became one with it. She could feel how happy the rose was to be alive and it was singing and rejoicing to God! She actually became one with the rose by shifting her consciousness towards it.

So, these particular NDE's, as well as some others have lead me to the believe that our consciousness can expand, contract or focus on just about anything. Perhaps our consciousness doesn't occupy "all" space, but it appears it does have the ability to expand, contract and shift it's focus.

Maybe this is what is meant by the term "Cosmic Consciousness"

Hi MisterJingo,

Quote from: MisterJingo

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Perhaps you found what you wanted. If you research this you should find that in most cases prayer results positive results. :-)

I haven't found anything. I am not looking into areas such as faith healing; I simply come across such research in my day to day life. The latest research didn't find prayer created positive results (quite the opposite when the subject knew they were being prayer for), which I did find interesting. Previous research could have been flawed, or this research could have been flawed. That is the point, it suggests basing views on such results will result in flawed views – because there is no definite answer (outside of belief).

The latest and greatest? Can you show us the references? That's what happens when a bunch of skeptics, doubters, and disbelievers get together and try to disprove prayer experiments. So you discount all the science research that yielded positive results? You would rather not dig into the details and just assume they were faulty experiments? So you chose to ignore the many positive results and hold on to the very few negative results?

I've seen the results of prayer. Long ago my Mother had serious back problems. For a long time she could not bend up. So she lived a life bent over at 90 degrees. It was terrible, painful, and consistent for a long time. Doctors had documented this for some time. One day she went to Catherine Coleman, a famous Christian healer. During the healing ministry she suddenly felt heat in her back and from that day forward she has been healed, completely.

So being a doubter you might think it's just the power of that old physical brain. There has been many supernatural occurrences in various such crusades of most ministries, just not Catherine Coleman. For example, one day in Kenneth Hagan's ministry he asked a crippled woman in a wheelchair to come up to the front of the church for healing. Suddenly her entire body began floating up and levitating about 10 feet off the ground floating and rotating around and began to unravel her crippled curled up body. Then she slowly floated down. This happened in front of thousands of people.

Quote from: MisterJingo

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No comparison between Derren Brown and my friend. You've made some strong claims about Chris Angel. So show me the published details of Chris Angels top wow tricks such as how he walked through glass.

...
Well his walking through glass trick, here are a number of ways which can be utilised to achieve this trick:

This is a great illusion but requires tons of set-up.
1. the "paper holders" are in on it. They hold the paper in a way so as not to press against the glass
2. The "found" paper was planted, and is ridgid enough to be held taut
3. The glass is actually cut to the shape of the letter "U", with the open end of the "u" on the bottom--an upside-down "u"
4. The open sign is not attached to the glass, but is fixed to look as though it is.
5. The "U" shaped cut is critical because it shows the solid glass on both sides of the paper, BUT NOT THE BOTTOM. Holding the paper so that it covers the bottom of the window frame is critical- it makes or breaks the trick--as well a positioning the paper so that glass is visible on both sides of it
6. The next critical thing is CLEAN GLASS. It must be spotless, immaculate, otherwise you would see a dirtline or lint rising up as the glass is pulled up into the specially made frame. This is why the paper holders don't press the paper against the glass--they must hold it just off from the glass and not touch the glass with their hands or the paper.
7. Its a great illusion

Do you actually think a huge piece of glass is going to move up and be replaced by another piece without anyone seeing or hearing this? Have you ever tried to place two pieces of glass together seamlessly so that you cannot see the seam?

Quote from: MisterJingoVery impressive. Very natural. Look into his levitation techniques and the devices he uses to accomplish them. You too can buy these devises, and learn how to do these tricks (although it will take lot of practice to pull them off).

Where can I buy a magic trick device that allows me to fly over 50 feet across and about 50 feet high in the air from one building to another? Are you tell us there was a huge crane that hosted Chris 50 feet in the air and moved him over 50 feet to the next building? Will you say that all the people who came out of the businesses to watch Chris were lying on camera. Don't you think they will notice a 100 foot crane? What about the cranes shadows on the walls and ground. What about engine noise? What about when Chris walked down one the highest Las Vegas buildings, when there was clearly a ledge that extended over Chris. How is a string going to do that?

Lets clarify the difference between David Blaine and the famous David Blaine copycat magician. David levitates about two feet off the ground while the camera man films low, showing all his feet and his feet shadows. The famous David Blaine copycat claims he can do it and he sells this trick online. People who've purchased this trick reveal the secret in forums. Most people are disappointed and even want their money back. The instructions say to cut the bottoms of your shoes off. The idea is push yourself up with the front of your feet and the people see your entire shoe rise, including the front part of your shoe.

So here's the comparison:

* David rises 2 feet, clearly showing the shadows of both feet. The camera films low and clearly shows there's no part of David that is touching the ground.
* David copycat rises about three inches off the ground and the audience must view this at an upper angle.

So the debunkers claim David used a crane to hoist his body up in the air and then used computers to remove all the cranes shadows and reflections in the glass.

Here's another question. How does Chris do his levitations where he walks in a cafe filled with people, everyone is watching, Chris floats up about 2 feet in the air and then moves forward on to a chair. The camera angle clearly shows that Chris Angles feet where no where near the ground.

Quote from: MisterJingoPlease link me to papers on growing a universe from nothing, as I read deeply into such areas and find nothing of the sort. M-theory is simply a way of tying together the various branches of string theory into one common place. It adds an extra dimension (theoretical) to allow the theories to co-exist. M-Theory in and of itself is pure theoretical right now, with no idea how to even empirically prove parts of it (outside of mathematics).

I am very surprised you do not know anything about this. It was a well known TV science show by BBC called "Parallel Universes." It interviews a lot of famous scientists. In there Alan Guth describes how to create a new universe in your basement:

Quote from: Alan GuthI in fact have worked with several other people for some period of time on the question of whether or not it's in principle possible to create a new universe in the laboratory. Whether or not it really works we don't know for sure. It looks like it probably would work. It's actually safe to create a universe in your basement. It would not displace the universe around it even though it would grow tremendously. It would actually create its own space as it grows and in fact in a very short fraction of a second it would splice itself off completely from our Universe and evolve as an isolated closed universe growing to cosmic proportions without displacing any of the territory that we currently lay claim to.

You can read some of the transcript:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/parallelunitrans.shtml

Quote from: MisterJingoIf you know so much about M-Theory, you would also know the growing unrest scientists are having in it as a framework of a TOE.
My understanding is nowhere near classical physics, as my interests lie in QM, ST etc.

Surely you know millions of dollars are being spent on M-theory experiments now. M-theory is booming. We'll just have to wait and see what come of it.

Quote from: MisterJingo

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How do you explain the Princeton University Global Consciousness Project?

Well the fact is this project hasn't really much to explain right now (please link me to papers which state otherwise and I'll happily concede). It simply collects random data from a number of sources and correlates it. I've read a lot of lies about this project, such as stating its predicted future events (no it hasn't).

It predicted 911 3 hours in advance. Did you know that quantum random generators are supposed to be the only thing that is purely random? How do you explain how they suddenly cease to be purely random?

Quote from: MisterJingoYou state the point exactly. One has to drop everything, and believe fully in a group to get proof. The problem with this is, utter belief in a group environment can create many amazing things through the acts of suggestion and shared belief. This proves nothing outside of the group.

Honestly MisterJingo, don't you think a lot of people would find your above statement very insulting? ... "suggestions"??? Please by all means, it is your right to believe all these small groups of scientists, researchers, and spiritualists are creating a big cesspool of brainwashing, fooling each other into seeing things. So I guess it helps your theory in belittling these people. It would be quite a big assumption on your part to suggestion all small groups are only succeeding through acts of suggestion and shared belief.

Quote from: MisterJingoWhat is this real force that prevents it globally, why does it prevent it globally, why does something repel people from such groups unless they drop critical thought and become believing followers?

You, I, and all beings. It is the collective, the group consciousness. Again, you are more than your lower self. So when I say "you", I am referring to your much higher part of your being. We are taught people are multilayered. For example, we can project the Etheric body, the Astral body, and even the Soul. The big picture on Earth is a group decision. Perhaps you are misunderstanding this. It is not like the collective consciousness prevents you. The global proof in way of experiments simply do not manifest. When you move your physical hand, this force that sustains and creates your hand is not from your lower self. It is created and sustained by much higher forces. When you try to perform an experiment that will change the near future on Earth to very different circumstances that is not yet willed then the experimental results will be fuzzy. The collective is not going to create any results that will drastically change the near future to such circumstances.

Quote from: MisterJingoAnd did it occur to you that you found something because that's where your belief lay? Your finding something holds no greater truth or reality than my finding nothing.

That is your opinion that I do not share. Indeed I believe that if I found a person that can vanish right before my eyes then that is better than you finding nothing.

Quote from: MisterJingoWell please come teleport to me. Then I will believe. But I guess that can't happen because it has to remain secret right?

No MisterJingo. You incarnated in this life, on this planet for a reason. This is a planet where nearly all people incarnate with a veil placed over their memories. It is one's choice to drop the skepticism, doubting, and negativity, but it takes time to overcome such negative momentum.

Quote from: MisterJingoDropping all disbeliefs doesn't change reality.

You really think so? You really think that countless incarnations of building up disbelief and doubt has not consequences on what you attract to your reality?

Quote from: MisterJingoWe are not bound by belief, we are bound by natural law.

We are bound by universal laws, of course. Yet you have a mind, which you can train to affect Astral, Etheric and Material matter.

Quote from: MisterJingoYou never even answered any of my critiques against such points of belief changing reality in previous posts.

I believe that I answered your questions.

Quote from: MisterJingoYou haven't answered about 90% of what I asked you, especially concerning why people/animals etc with no belief are still seemingly bound by the exact same laws that we are.

Yes I did MisterJingo. Perhaps you chose to not focus on it. Again, there are universal laws the all beings work with. It is very simple. Doubt, disbeliefs, negativity is not the way if you want to manipulate material matter with the mind. Such manipulation abides with universal laws. My research has provided personal proof that mind over matter is real. If you analyze numerous research, you should begin to notice a pattern. Take a look at research that is publicized to the world. Then spend some time searching for small group research. See if you begin to notice a pattern.

There was a person who could prove time after time if a person is walking behind a wall simply by looking at their aura. Amazingly enough, they could even prove this to a few people here and there, which in itself is a great accomplishment. Yet when they went on live TV they failed miserably.


Good luck on your journey,
Inward

Quote from: jub jubPerhaps there is no Etheric Body, just consciousness.

I completely agree with you. I believe it is all consciousness. The idea of an Etheric body is a collective idea that we participate in.

Inward

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The latest and greatest? Can you show us the references?

Sure:

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From efficacy to safety concerns: A STEP forward or a step back for clinical research and intercessory prayer?
The Study of Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)
Mitchell W. Krucoff MD, FACC, Suzanne W. Crater RN, ANP-C and Kerry L. Lee PhD

Duke University Medical Center, Duke Clinical Research Institute, Durham, NC

Received 27 June 2005;  accepted 28 June 2005.  Available online 28 March 2006.

If you can't be bothered to pay for that, some of the details can be found here:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

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That's what happens when a bunch of skeptics, doubters, and disbelievers get together and try to disprove prayer experiments. So you discount all the science research that yielded positive results? You would rather not dig into the details and just assume they were faulty experiments? So you chose to ignore the many positive results and hold on to the very few negative results?

Well this shows what a person states when they can't see outside of their own rigid belief system. If you read the study, if you research the people who carried it out, you will see they they're not a bunch of sceptics, doubters and disbelievers. They actually conducted the study because those done previously were highly criticised and flawed – whose results were open to wild interpretation. But I guess flawed is ok if it follows our own beliefs?
Nothing has been ignored. I simply stated that near as many experiments carried out into this area have shown prayer has not worked. The most recent study which attempted to be as rigorous and unbiased as possible found that prayer actually made the people being prayed for recover much slower. No attempt at doubt or scepticism, just a series of double blind studies and their results.

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I've seen the results of prayer. Long ago my Mother had serious back problems. For a long time she could not bend up. So she lived a life bent over at 90 degrees. It was terrible, painful, and consistent for a long time. Doctors had documented this for some time. One day she went to Catherine Coleman, a famous Christian healer. During the healing ministry she suddenly felt heat in her back and from that day forward she has been healed, completely.

Well that is fantastic news. But all it shows is she was healed. For all we know the belief she had in this person, the mindset created during the healing ministry, is what healed this problem ie she healed herself, not gained healing external to herself.

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So being a doubter you might think it's just the power of that old physical brain. There has been many supernatural occurrences in various such crusades of most ministries, just not Catherine Coleman. For example, one day in Kenneth Hagan's ministry he asked a crippled woman in a wheelchair to come up to the front of the church for healing. Suddenly her entire body began floating up and levitating about 10 feet off the ground floating and rotating around and began to unravel her crippled curled up body. Then she slowly floated down. This happened in front of thousands of people.

Please can you provide any evidence of this apart from hear say? I just find it staggering that we can view galaxies hundreds of billions of light years away, we can see down to the atomic level, we can see near anything on Earth in an instant. Yet, we still have no evidence or proof of all these flying, levitating and teleporting people. But I guess this makes me a disbeliever because I don't believe third hand knowledge.

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Do you actually think a huge piece of glass is going to move up and be replaced by another piece without anyone seeing or hearing this? Have you ever tried to place two pieces of glass together seamlessly so that you cannot see the seam?

The glass is specifically created for the trick, most people around are in on the trick. If you really want to argue about this, argue with the magicians who have been doing this too and have stated how it is done.

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Where can I buy a magic trick device that allows me to fly over 50 feet across and about 50 feet high in the air from one building to another? Are you tell us there was a huge crane that hosted Chris 50 feet in the air and moved him over 50 feet to the next building? Will you say that all the people who came out of the businesses to watch Chris were lying on camera. Don't you think they will notice a 100 foot crane? What about the cranes shadows on the walls and ground. What about engine noise? What about when Chris walked down one the highest Las Vegas buildings, when there was clearly a ledge that extended over Chris. How is a string going to do that?

Do you mean this trick?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WauSnzWG2E8
Which was done with wires, which was done with a group of Criss' groupies to show shock and surprise, and was actually done in some secluded industrial park which just happened to have a group of people to see hanging about. Just watch the camera angels, always at a position not to expose shadow, always at a position as not to look directly upwards (as they would show the devise the wires were attached to). No magician to date has been truthful when they say they use no camera tricks, that they use no stooges. Their job is to misdirect and entertain us.
If you really take this kind of stuff as proof of people doing amazing feats, I really do worry.
Also, please go do a search on the tricks Criss has botched giving the secret of the illusion away. This has happened a few times now.
Criss is a talented showman, but he is not a superhuman with mystical powers.

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Lets clarify the difference between David Blaine and the famous David Blaine copycat magician. David levitates about two feet off the ground while the camera man films low, showing all his feet and his feet shadows. The famous David Blaine copycat claims he can do it and he sells this trick online. People who've purchased this trick reveal the secret in forums. Most people are disappointed and even want their money back. The instructions say to cut the bottoms of your shoes off. The idea is push yourself up with the front of your feet and the people see your entire shoe rise, including the front part of your shoe.

That's not how the trick is done at all. Blaine uses a form of levitation called Balducci levitation (which has been around for a long time) http://www.magiclearn.50megs.com/photo2.html . If you notice, he will only levitate while at a certain angle to the people, with the people in a certain spot. The crux of this levitation type is you almost tiptoe on one foot while keeping the other foot straight. Due to your angle to the observers, that foot is obscured, so it looks like you are levitating an inch or too.
What makes the trick more interesting for home viewers is that the camera cuts to his feet, where it now looks like he is levitating 2 foot. This is added in later using wires. But the people's reaction is genuine. They simply see him rise a few inches to our 2 foot.

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So here's the comparison:

* David rises 2 feet, clearly showing the shadows of both feet. The camera films low and clearly shows there's no part of David that is touching the ground.
* David copycat rises about three inches off the ground and the audience must view this at an upper angle.

So the debunkers claim David used a crane to hoist his body up in the air and then used computers to remove all the cranes shadows and reflections in the glass.

Read the above and do your own research on this. This is an illusion which has been used for a very long time.

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Here's another question. How does Chris do his levitations where he walks in a cafe filled with people, everyone is watching, Chris floats up about 2 feet in the air and then moves forward on to a chair. The camera angle clearly shows that Chris Angles feet where no where near the ground.

Hmm lets see from the horses mouth:

http://media.putfile.com/Criss-Angel-Levitation-Revealed-20

Add to this stooges and complimentary camera angles. If you look at no links I supplied, please look at the above.

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I am very surprised you do not know anything about this. It was a well known TV science show by BBC called "Parallel Universes." It interviews a lot of famous scientists. In there Alan Guth describes how to create a new universe in your basement:

Yes, but this is speculation not theory. Alan Guth is the guy who proposed inflationary theory. This theory has seriously holes in it, which you can research for yourself. This is nothing to do with M-Theory as such. It's just an idea that a universe can be created (no information on how such a feat would be possible) and it would expand rapidly. That's it.

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Surely you know millions of dollars are being spent on M-theory experiments now. M-theory is booming. We'll just have to wait and see what come of it.

What M-Theory experiments? I'd be very interested to hear about them.

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It predicted 911 3 hours in advance. Did you know that quantum random generators are supposed to be the only thing that is purely random? How do you explain how they suddenly cease to be purely random?

No it didn't. It simply showed a supposedly none random spike in random data before an event. We don't know what this spike is, or what caused it. It could have been some global awareness. We really don't know. So I don't make claims as to its meaning or importance right now.

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Honestly MisterJingo, don't you think a lot of people would find your above statement very insulting? ... "suggestions"??? Please by all means, it is your right to believe all these small groups of scientists, researchers, and spiritualists are creating a big cesspool of brainwashing, fooling each other into seeing things. So I guess it helps your theory in belittling these people. It would be quite a big assumption on your part to suggestion all small groups are only succeeding through acts of suggestion and shared belief.

I for one have not directly insulted anyone. I actually have stated many times I respect people interested in, and researching into these areas - so making such claims is a bit dramatic.
If you wish to see the power of suggestion do a bit of background reading into the countless experiments which have researched suggestion in solo and group situations.   Also look into false memory syndrome, the placebo effect (which has been shown to have a natural cause), accelerated recuperation, and do further reading into mentalism, suggestion through media and advertising etc.
I haven't belittled anyone. I have simply stated that I have seen groups convince each other of pretty drastic or far out actions through reinforced belief and suggestion. I have seen people who, through belief imposed on them through a group, believed amazing things were happening to them i.e. their body was taken over by another member, they were pushed down to the floor from a distance by another group members mind etc. All of it had its roots in suggestion.
Nowhere have I ever said everything is suggestion just that by giving up rational thinking and having total belief in a group don't mean amazing things experienced there hold any greater truth.

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That is your opinion that I do not share. Indeed I believe that if I found a person that can vanish right before my eyes then that is better than you finding nothing.

Well that's fantastic. Why don't they record themselves doing it and put it on the net. They could obscure their face etc if they want anonymity. As you said in the RTZ thread, you have to ask for proof and research it.

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No MisterJingo. You incarnated in this life, on this planet for a reason. This is a planet where nearly all people incarnate with a veil placed over their memories. It is one's choice to drop the skepticism, doubting, and negativity, but it takes time to overcome such negative momentum.

I might have incarnated here for you to teleport to me. Belief or disbelief has nothing to do with this. So please, I would love you to teleport to me. For all you know, you could have incarnated her to do this act.

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You really think so? You really think that countless incarnations of building up disbelief and doubt has not consequences on what you attract to your reality?

I believe one can effect change in their reality own interpretation of reality, but not effect reality itself. I've seen nothing to convince me of this fact to date.

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Yes I did MisterJingo. Perhaps you chose to not focus on it. Again, there are universal laws the all beings work with. It is very simple. Doubt, disbeliefs, negativity is not the way if you want to manipulate material matter with the mind. Such manipulation abides with universal laws. My research has provided personal proof that mind over matter is real. If you analyze numerous research, you should begin to notice a pattern. Take a look at research that is publicized to the world. Then spend some time searching for small group research. See if you begin to notice a pattern.

Well you didn't answer why babies (no belief at all) do not produce amazing feats, you didn't explain why animals who wouldn't understand our beliefs do not do amazing feats. You didn't explain how tribes found within the last 10 years, so absolutely secluded from our beliefs, haven't had a history of amazing feats. There are countless examples where such a theory falls on its face. But I've found adherents to such theory either ignore the gaping inconsistencies or simply redefine their beliefs to state such things as the collective unconsciousness is the cause :roll:.

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There was a person who could prove time after time if a person is walking behind a wall simply by looking at their aura. Amazingly enough, they could even prove this to a few people here and there, which in itself is a great accomplishment. Yet when they went on live TV they failed miserably.

I've read of experiments where such people also failed in laboratories or the experiments where a psychic claimed they could detect the energy of a living being. The experiment simply consisted of a young child putting their hands under the blindfolded psychics at random intervals, and the psychic simply had to state when she could detect energy. This failed spectacularly. All experiments I have read like this have failed. An amusing program pitted a monkeys' random predictions against that of a psychic in a number of challenges, and the monkey actually scored higher. I really wish these experiments had gone well. I don't watch them, or read up on them wishing them to fail. But having seen so many spectacular failures, and no stunning successes, I have to question why this is.

Just spotted all this stuff about David Blaine and Criss Angel.  I'm really amazed that there are people who believe these guys are really levitating!  It's a trick guys, get real.  MisterJingo explained exactly how it's done.  It's done by misdirection, camera angles, wires and stooges.  

The Blaine levitation is as MisterJingo says, a simple trick of standing on one tiptoe, filming peoples reaction's and then adding in the 2 foot wire-levitation later when no-one is around. I can do this trick myself and it amuses people.  YOU can do it and check out how it looks in a full-length mirror, it's spooky.

Both Blaine and Angel are excellent magicians, as is our own Derren Brown (here in the UK).  But that's all. It really is ridiculously easy to fool people using the most simple, allbeit ingenious, techniques. You need to take alook at "13 Steps to Mentalism", to see how easy this stuff is:

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/exec.php/product/ProductDetail/00828//

What I would say though is that there is very good evidence for ESP, and I've certainly performed ESP feats which I believe are incontravertible.  I've also been to Psychic Fayres and been utterly unimpressed at the pathetic psychic readings I've been given.

So you takes your choice.  But Blaine and Angel are just magicians.  Sheesh.... :confused:

btw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly!  :lol:

Quote from: catmeow
You need to take alook at "13 Steps to Mentalism", to see how easy this stuff is:

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/exec.php/product/ProductDetail/00828//

Dammit! Posting interesting sounding books, hence forcing me to buy them :mad:  :grin: I just went and bought it off ebay :lol:

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What I would say though is that there is very good evidence for ESP, and I've certainly performed ESP feats which I believe are incontravertible.  I've also been to Psychic Fayres and been utterly unimpressed at the pathetic psychic readings I've been given.

I hope I don't come across as a complete sceptic  :confused:. I've had a lot of very interesting things happen which do seem to have their roots in ESP (or at least areas we currently have no real knowledge of) - I just haven't felt the need to take on board all encompassing belief systems to explain these things.

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btw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly!  :lol:

:wink:

OK, this discussion is getting to argumentative. We can go back and forth forever. You want global proof. I keep telling you it won't happen for many years. You don't have any personal proof. I have personal proof. If it bothers you that other people actually came to have personal proof then you'll just need to deal with it. :-)

I'll try to keep this short.

Quote from: MisterJingohttp://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Wouldn't you agree that shows positive results? It is perhaps the Christians that are disappointed with the results. Three groups of about 600 people each. The group that had nobody praying for them had 158 cardiac complications. The group that silently prayed (the patients had no idea a group was praying for them) had 187 complications. That's a significant difference statically, which if accurate shows consciousness affects matter. Again, the poor Christians, yet it is still positive results by my standard. Art Bell discovered this effect long ago when he was conducting numerous live radio group consciousness experiments. It scared him so bad that he said he never wants to do another one. Once he had his millions of listeners focus on a storm. It worked but backfired in huge way. The storm changed direction and hit a worse area <<<G>>>.

Personally I am a little surprised such publicized results are not random. I would expect such well publicized results to be all over the place. That is, if you perform 10 well done experiments then you would get 10 different results. On the other hand, it is somewhat hilarious how possibly the collective consciousness achieved both results. 1. The science community loves it because it achieved the opposite what the Christian community claimed. 2. It still provides positive results in that it is still showing that when someone prays for a patient that it changes the results even though the patient has no idea they're being prayed for, but I would not be surprised if this changed if the scientists continue to push the matter. That is, if they continue to dig into the matter then I think the results will eventually even out. Who knows ... I don't speak for the collective, lol.

This goes far beyond praying for people. From affecting bacteria to plants.  Dr. Franklin Loehr achieved positive results in a controlled experiment to see what effect prayer had on germinating seeds. Time after time the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination. Yet negative prayer halted germination.

Dr. Dossey in his research noted that if bacteria respond to outside intentions by growing more slowly when prayed over, than control groups not receiving prayer, then one cannot dismiss this result by attributing it to negative suggestion.

Jean Barry, a physician-researcher in Bordeaux, France, works with the destructive fungus, Rhizoctonia Solani.
Quote, "The researchers William H. Tedder and Melissa L. Monty from the University of Tennessee replicated the experiment. The goal of this study was to inhibit the growth of the fungus from the distance of one to fifteen miles. Two groups participated. Group one was made up of Tedder and six others who knew him and frequently interacted with him over a year and a half. Group 2 consisted of 8 volunteers who either did not know Tedder or did not interact with him frequently.  When the growth differential between the experimental and control dishes were compared, group one was highly successful. The likelihood of explaining their results by chance were less than 3 in 100,000. Group two was less successful. Their likelihood of a chance explanation was 6 in 100. Why was group one more successful? The researchers theorized that because of their established rapport with Tedder they might have had greater expectation and more motivation of a positive outcome than group two had."

Quote from: MisterJingoYet, we still have no evidence or proof of all these flying, levitating and teleporting people.

You mean lack of global proof and your lack of personal proof.

Quote from: MisterJingoWell you didn't answer why babies (no belief at all) do not produce amazing feats, you didn't explain why animals who wouldn't understand our beliefs do not do amazing feats. You didn't explain how tribes found within the last 10 years, so absolutely secluded from our beliefs, haven't had a history of amazing feats. There are countless examples where such a theory falls on its face.

I've explained it too many times. It takes a developed being. Remember our hypothetical example of advanced people on other planets? Animals do not have a mental body like humans. Babies do not have a developed astral body much less a developed mental body.


Inward

Quotebtw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly! Laughing

Copperfield, now he's the real deal! :mrgreen:

Actually I'm not suggesting Chris has any supernatural abilities. Personally I think he does has some abilities. Here's my quote from the start in this thread

Quote from: InwardYou mean like Chris Angel, lol. I can attest there are people who can break free from such beliefs. I don't know if Chris Angel is one, but I personally know of others.

Can someone please explain exactly what you mean by "not having a belief system."  If I understand the definition of the word "belief" then I'm wondering how can someone not believe in anything?

Inward

MJ - Hope you enjoy the book! Wow I sold something...  :wink: