The Astral Pulse

Astral Projection & Out of Body Experiences => Welcome to Out of Body Experiences! => Topic started by: Mr.PumperNickle on September 22, 2011, 21:33:00

Title: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Mr.PumperNickle on September 22, 2011, 21:33:00
Do you see things in a 180 degree radius or 360? Is it true or not?
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Xanth on September 22, 2011, 23:45:27
You'll see however you expect to see.  Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Alex-Anderson on September 23, 2011, 02:17:35
As much as I'm aware of the 360 viewing opportunity I have never yet experienced that, my vision is exactly the same as when conscious in the real time frame.

However I find that despite having vision during my experiences, as an aid it feels secondary to other senses, sort of hard to explain but almost as if vision is only there because I expect it to be there but it's not acting as the primary tool in my decision making, sometimes I will stop my vision to prevent corrupting the experience. But thinking about it perhaps vision is interpreted exactly the same in the physical world - entering the philosophical discussion on semiotics I guess.   

However it would be cool to experience 360 viewing.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Lionheart on September 23, 2011, 02:44:15
 I find that because when in the physical we are only using our physical eyes that when I am in the Astral I use those eyes as well. Hard to bypass years of training I guess. But there have been a couple of times when I have looked behind me or beside me in the Astral and haven't turned my head to do it. I once tried to look in back of myself while flying over some mountains. That totally disoriented me and ended the session there quite abruptly.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Alex-Anderson on September 23, 2011, 02:50:38
Funny you should mention that because in some of my OBEs I will view myself the "OBE'er" from above, or from the side, but basically viewing myself from a different angle, but never really thought of this as some form of extended vision but more as a separation or split, but could be just a wrap around type vision.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rostum on September 23, 2011, 07:39:26
My view has always seem limited, as if it were more like a 45 degree angle. For some reason I can never get myself to think about seeing clearly.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Alex-Anderson on September 23, 2011, 07:44:52
I usually find saying 'awareness now' or 'clarity now' usually allows me to focus more clearly. Never has failede yet, so if you can ever remember (that's the hardest part) give it a go.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Astral316 on September 23, 2011, 09:36:57
Always have a 180 degree vision field, more or less... I imagine one would have to log a ton of "astral hours" before they lose the habit of viewing things from a human perspective.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Szaxx on September 23, 2011, 19:07:18
Hi,

You can see with the palm of your hand if you wish to. Imagine an eye appearing there and one will.
The problem with this is your 'outing' will end abruptly as its so scary to see it seeing you simultaneously.
wierd .....
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 23, 2011, 20:16:45
Quote from: Mr.PumperNickle on September 22, 2011, 21:33:00
Do you see things in a 180 degree radius or 360? Is it true or not?

I think the 360 degree viewpoint was an idea first posited by an author speaking of the 'view' from the Atmic realm which is wayyy beyond the Astral. It was given as a metaphorical representation of "perception" and not meant to be taken literally as a physical allegory.

The astral is more like tunnel vision in comparison to the Atmic perception.

From what I read on most of these AP forums it is clear that most APers are getting 45 degree vision at best.

Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 23, 2011, 23:39:00
Quote from: Ryan_ on September 22, 2011, 23:45:27
You'll see however you expect to see.  Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now.

:?

Not quite.

In fact... not even close
(not if the reports of 99% of the people sharing their experience is to be taken at face value)



Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Xanth on September 24, 2011, 12:26:40
What are 99% of people sharing their experiences reporting?
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Astral316 on September 24, 2011, 14:15:03
Quote from: Rudolph on September 23, 2011, 20:16:45
From what I read on most of these AP forums it is clear that most APers are getting 45 degree vision at best.

Huh? That's just a quarter of what a human would normally see... which means 75% of one's vision field would be blank. I don't see many, if any references of such nature in the AP stories I read. All I hear is "It's the same as waking reality" which implies 180 degrees or a bit less...
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 24, 2011, 15:28:40
Many report vision problems ranging from darkness to muddled unclear vision. Of those who can see, a large percentage report tunnel vision. This would be more typical.

Although some individuals may mock up a field of view that mimics the physical vision I would say that not only is this unusual but it is unnatural for the 'astral' realm experience.

If OBE vision were typically like physical waking vision why would there be so much discussion on how to improve vision and clarity, "Clarity Now!" and so on?


Some excerpts to show what I mean;

...  the first few seconds I am always blind, as my physical eyes are closed and the  ...
...  that I learned. I started to rub my eyes together in front of my face, and as I  ...
...  so my vision became clearer. I yelled out the  ...
... ), when I did this I got a MUCH clearer vision of my room, although not as clear and  ...
...  command...however I could not make the vision more vivid after a certain point. I  ...
...  to slowly float up and over my bed. My vision was fixed straight upwards, and I felt  ...
...  black cloudy stuff entering my field of vision from the left side (meaning it would've  ...
... , and I felt like I was starting to lose vision and control. I repeated the hand  ...


Once I was out I was partially blind. I had a kaleidoscopic or fragmented  ...
...  of being in my dark bedroom and saw the light coming from  ...
...  hallway and mentally demanded that my vision be improved. It only improved slightly  ...
...  to run towards it and plunge into the darkness in order to go somewhere else. I  ...
...  was shifting at high speed through the dark void. I was happy with the speed and  ...
...  me while I was gliding through that darkness. I started to think of several  ...


...  dream fade out. All I could see was a dark blue tint and I heard a loud buzzing  ...
...  from one eye, then I'd get a kind of tunnel vision. It ended with a party in an  ...


...  it became black. I got a kidn of tunnel vision and then it just went.
I tried  ...
...  anyhting to do with any type or auric vision or if it's just my eyes being defected  ...


.  experience... I was going through the 'tunnel' or whatever (all dark) and all of a  ...
...  the whole ordeal I do not believe I had vision... at least, everything was black black  ...


...  clarity now!" This may activate your eyesight. Or another trick is pretend you  ...
...  removing something from your eyes pretend you're using your hands as if  ...
...  put a mask over your eyes and you're trying to remove it. worked  ...
...  me two times I was blind. This is what I use and I'm assuming  ...
...  If it's the case you're still partially stuck to your body but partially out,  ...
...  to get you out. And if you're still blind apply those techniques mentioned above. ...
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Lionheart on September 24, 2011, 16:45:21
 Most of those people that are experiencing this Rudolph are also having their first OBE's or are Phasing for the first time. Your vision becomes crystal clear with practice and more experience controlling it.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 24, 2011, 18:24:27
Quote from: Lionheart on September 24, 2011, 16:45:21
Most of those people that are experiencing this Rudolph are also having their first OBE's or are Phasing for the first time. Your vision becomes crystal clear with practice and more experience controlling it.

Note that my original point was about a claim of "initially", as in, "Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now" which simply ain't so, imo.

And it is not just "first time" APers... the vision troubles are persistent and pervasive across a wide swath of projectors at not just the 'first time' point but completely through the beginning and well into intermediate levels as well.

Note that "forcing" an astral experience to sensory mode-wise fit into a physical rubric is not necessarily a good idea or even a good thing. Learning how to experience the Inner realms on Its own terms wholly apart and separate from the physical Earthly experience and sense modality can be a most useful skill in the Eternal scheme of things.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Astral316 on September 24, 2011, 19:08:13
Well there's a distinction between field of view and clarity of view. Just because one has poor clarity doesn't mean the field of view can't still be a typical 180 degrees. I'll give you references to tunnel vision, but these occurrences aren't more prevalent than experiences with typical field of view.

Quote from: Rudolph on September 24, 2011, 18:24:27
Note that "forcing" an astral experience to sensory mode-wise fit into a physical rubric is not necessarily a good idea or even a good thing. Learning how to experience the Inner realms on Its own terms wholly apart and separate from the physical Earthly experience and sense modality can be a most useful skill in the Eternal scheme of things.

True in a sense, but for the sake of communication it's all we have to compare... and for non-physical environments akin to our own reality the comparisons are appropriate enough.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: catmeow on September 24, 2011, 22:54:02
I agree with the distinction between clarity and field of view. lack of clarity does not imply reduced field of view. Personally my OBEs/LDs are typically 180 degree vision with extreme clarity. I have been studying AP for many years and can not say that I have noted any references to tunnel vision, in spontaneous OBEs, other than the "tunnel" motif experienced during NDE; but this is not the same as tunnel vision. I have however seen a number of references to spherical or 360 degree vision.

Reduced clarity and field of view is common in the early stages of self-induced OBE, but it generally clears up with a little effort. By contrast, spontaneous OBEs are typically very clear with normal field of view or expanded field of view. Refer to "Out of the Body Experiences" by Celia Green for a more detailed analysis of visual perceptual realism in a moderate sized study group (~300 cases) of spontaneous OBEs.  93% of the study group experienced vision and of these (quoting from the study):

"Subjects characteristically describe their field of perception in the ecsomatic state as if it was an exact simulation of what they would normally perceive if they occupied the position in question."

and

"In some cases the subject of an ecsomatic state reports that he had a more comprehensive field of vision than normal. He may describe himself as being able to 'see all around me at once'."

Celia Green does not mention even one instance of tunnel vision in the case study.

Please look here and count the number of cases of tunnel vision (I haven't found any but I may have missed them): http://www.oberf.org/ (http://www.oberf.org/)

Is there a confusion between AP with travelling clairvoyance? In travelling clairvoyance, tunnel vision is commonly reported, but in this case the subject "feels" as if they are still located in their physical body and they sometimes view remote scenes via a "tunnel".

I would be interested to be pointed towards cases of tunnel vision occuring in spontaneous OBEs, because, as I say, I can't say that I have noticed any.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: T.L. on September 25, 2011, 00:13:54
Quote from: Rudolph on September 23, 2011, 20:16:45
I think the 360 degree viewpoint was an idea first posited by an author speaking of the 'view' from the Atmic realm which is wayyy beyond the Astral. It was given as a metaphorical representation of "perception" and not meant to be taken literally as a physical allegory.

The astral is more like tunnel vision in comparison to the Atmic perception.

From what I read on most of these AP forums it is clear that most APers are getting 45 degree vision at best.



Let's not just go by what people say and instead experience it for yourself. I experienced it myself before I ever read anything online about it. I had no idea others were experiencing this as well. It happened a number of times and I just found it too disorientating. As long as I actively think about it not happening it doesn't. It's really really hard to explain and I can not even come up with a kind of comparison to explain what it is like. The only thing I can tell you about it is it was near impossible (the first time) to tell which way is up or down, left or right. I also felt small as well, more like I was a speck of light, or dust particle..etc like I said hard to explain. I also felt it less comfortable than just feeling like I do now, obviously. It's indeed interesting to experiment with it from time to time but probably something you wouldn't want to do regularly. When I project I want to take as much time as I can to accomplish whatever goal I set, when this kind of thing happens you waste a lot of valuable time just trying to navigate around and orientate yourself.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 25, 2011, 11:30:10
Quote from: catmeow on September 24, 2011, 22:54:02
...I have been studying AP for many years and can not say that I have noted any references to tunnel vision, in spontaneous OBEs, other than the "tunnel" motif experienced during NDE; but this is not the same as tunnel vision.
[...]
Celia Green does not mention even one instance of tunnel vision in the case study.

Please look here and count the number of cases of tunnel vision (I haven't found any but I may have missed them): http://www.oberf.org/ (http://www.oberf.org/)

Is there a confusion between AP with travelling clairvoyance? In travelling clairvoyance, tunnel vision is commonly reported, but in this case the subject "feels" as if they are still located in their physical body and they sometimes view remote scenes via a "tunnel".

I would be interested to be pointed towards cases of tunnel vision occuring in spontaneous OBEs, because, as I say, I can't say that I have noticed any.

:? :? :?

wha???

How can you say that? How can you NOT HAVE NOTICED?!   :-o :lol: :lol:

I just got done quoting several such references to said "tunnel vision" taken straight from this forum!

...  dream fade out. All I could see was a dark blue tint and I heard a loud buzzing  ...
...  from one eye, then I'd get a kind of tunnel vision. It ended with a party in an  ...

...  it became black. I got a kidn of tunnel vision and then it just went.
I tried  ...
...  anyhting to do with any type or auric vision or if it's just my eyes being defected  ...

.  experience... I was going through the 'tunnel' or whatever (all dark) and all of a  ...
...  the whole ordeal I do not believe I had vision... at least, everything was black black  ...



:? :|

Why did you insert the qualifier, "spontaneous"?? What does that have to do with anything?


Edit; I just got done checking the website you linked to and were not able to find tunnel vision references... I stopped counting when my search found over 2 dozen....
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Xanth on September 25, 2011, 18:15:37
It seems to me then that everyone involved here isn't, perhaps, using the same definitions.
This is a problem we encounter frequently with this subject.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: catmeow on September 25, 2011, 19:48:32
Quote from: Rudolph on September 25, 2011, 11:30:10
How can you say that? How can you NOT HAVE NOTICED?!   :-o :lol: :lol:

Easily, please re-read my post. I specifically asked for examples of tunnel vision in spontaneous OOBs. The examples you quote are from the forum and therefore I assume were self-induced OOBs, were they not?  There is a big difference in the taxonomy of self-induced and spontaneous OOBs.

Also in my post I did say that "reduced clarity and field of view [tunnel vision] is common in the early stages of self-induced OBE" (sic). So I do accept it happens but only as far as I am aware, in self-induced OOBs. There may be the odd example in spontaneous OOBs but I am not aware of any.

But whilst we're on the subject of tunnel vision, of the 26 examples you quoted, only TWO mentioned tunnel vision (there was one report of passing through a tunnel which is an entirely different thing). You did give numerous examples of difficulty with vision but only two experienced tunnel vision. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the following statement which (imo) is not correct:

Quote from: Rudolph
From what I read on most of these AP forums it is clear that most APers are getting 45 degree vision at best.

I just noticed your edit:

Quote from: Rudolph
Edit; I just got done checking the website you linked to and were not able to find tunnel vision references... I stopped counting when my search found over 2 dozen....

Are you confusing "going through a tunnel" with "tunnel vision"? They are entirely different things
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: catmeow on September 25, 2011, 20:20:44
Quote from: Rudolph
Edit; I just got done checking the website you linked to and were not able to find tunnel vision references... I stopped counting when my search found over 2 dozen....

I have just been through the first 30 or so cases on that web site and could not find the 2 dozen references to tunnel vision you mentioned.  In fact I couldn't find ANY references to tunnel vision. There are however frequent references to a "tunnel" (which I would expect) but this is NOT tunnel vision. With tunnel vision your field of vison is reduced to only the central field. If you move around you can still only see centrally. 

A "tunnel" on the other hand is a fixed structure, which you can look away from. If you turn away from a "tunnel" you can still see it in your periphery, in other words you have a wide field of view, even though you can see a tunnel structure. I believe you are using  the term "tunnel vision" when what you mean is "seeing a tunnel".  They are entirely different things. 

Could you link to some of the examples of tunnel vision you found?
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 25, 2011, 22:53:27
Quote from: catmeow on September 25, 2011, 20:20:44
... There are however frequent references to a "tunnel" (which I would expect) but this is NOT tunnel vision. With tunnel vision your field of vison is reduced to only the central field. If you move around you can still only see centrally. 

Classic nit-pik.

I already copied for you (twice) relevant examples from this forum.

And a simple report of a tunnel effect is close enough in the context of what I was saying...a "tunnel" is sufficiently narrowed in vision to make the point. You may see them as "entirely different things" but I do not. The fact that vision is constricted as in a tunnel is obviously reflecting a condition that is NOT consistent with, "Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now".

Plus your link was to a site that was more NDE oriented and I also now understand better why you inserted the "spontaneous" qualifier (which you chose not to answer when I asked why). Pure obfuscation. That site is mainly reports of a nature that is not typical for aspiring "Conscious and purposeful" wannabe Astral Projection/Phase aspirants and learners. ... very tricky, but I am onto your game.

The report of vision problems is VERY common on many of these forums. I have already shown that sufficiently for reasonable people. Those with an agenda that is in conflict with reality can choose to cling to whatever errors get them through the day.

Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Xanth on September 25, 2011, 23:07:32
Quote from: Rudolph on September 25, 2011, 22:53:27
And a simple report of a tunnel effect is close enough in the context of what I was saying...a "tunnel" is sufficiently narrowed in vision to make the point. You may see them as "entirely different things" but I do not.
So then there are different definitions here being tossed around.
We're not talking apples vs apples then.

... just sayin.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: T.L. on September 26, 2011, 09:10:12
Umm yeah I have had experiences of going through a tunnel at a fast pace. However I didn't have 'tunnel vision' I could see as I normally do complete with peripheral vision... so when I talk about this kind of thing I mean normal vision but going through a literal tunnel. Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: catmeow on September 26, 2011, 13:51:24
Rudolph if you are not willing to engage in an actual discussion, but would rather insult by accusing me of nit picking, obfuscation, game-playing, unreasonableness, etc etc there is no point in continuing this discussion. I thought I was bringing clarity not obfuscation. If you had simply said "oh huh I see why we're saying different things" that would have been fine and we could have moved on. There is a big difference between "tunnel vision" and "seeing a tunnel" the former is a visual impairment and the latter is not. Your post was all about visual impairment, so it's important to make the distinction. I have no agenda other than discussing the facts (no "tricky" no "game"). Since you don't wish to do this, I won't reply to you any more.
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: catmeow on September 26, 2011, 14:02:29
Quote from: T.L
Let's not just go by what people say and instead experience it for yourself. I experienced it myself before I ever read anything online about it. I had no idea others were experiencing this as well. It happened a number of times and I just found it too disorientating. As long as I actively think about it not happening it doesn't. It's really really hard to explain and I can not even come up with a kind of comparison to explain what it is like. The only thing I can tell you about it is it was near impossible (the first time) to tell which way is up or down, left or right. I also felt small as well, more like I was a speck of light, or dust particle..etc like I said hard to explain. I also felt it less comfortable than just feeling like I do now, obviously. It's indeed interesting to experiment with it from time to time but probably something you wouldn't want to do regularly. When I project I want to take as much time as I can to accomplish whatever goal I set, when this kind of thing happens you waste a lot of valuable time just trying to navigate around and orientate yourself.
I find this fascinating T.L. I have never experienced this spherical vision. What you describe is in fact different to 360 degree vision, it is true spherical vision (left-right, forward-backward, top-bottom).  Spherical vision crops up quite a lot in OBE and NDE accounts and is something I think skeptics have difficulty explaining.  I have never heard of people having spherical vision in regular dreams (?) but in OBE/NDE it happens...

Quote from: T.L
Umm yeah I have had experiences of going through a tunnel at a fast pace. However I didn't have 'tunnel vision' I could see as I normally do complete with peripheral vision... so when I talk about this kind of thing I mean normal vision but going through a literal tunnel. Hope this helps.
Me too, I have travelled through tunnels... and... yes... my vision was not impaired in any way...
Title: Re: Your view of the astral world.
Post by: Rudolph on September 26, 2011, 17:31:56
Quote from: catmeow on September 26, 2011, 13:51:24
Rudolph if you are not willing to engage in an actual discussion, but would rather insult by accusing me of nit picking, obfuscation, game-playing, unreasonableness, etc etc there is no point in continuing this discussion. I thought I was bringing clarity not obfuscation. If you had simply said "oh huh I see why we're saying different things" that would have been fine and we could have moved on. There is a big difference between "tunnel vision" and "seeing a tunnel" the former is a visual impairment and the latter is not. Your post was all about visual impairment, so it's important to make the distinction. I have no agenda other than discussing the facts (no "tricky" no "game"). Since you don't wish to do this, I won't reply to you any more.


Catmeow, I made no insults toward you. Identifying a nit-pik as a nit-pik is NOT an insult. Identifying obfuscation as obfuscation is NOT an insult. I did not accuse you of game playing. I did not accuse you of unreasonableness. I described my examples as sufficient for 'reasonable' folks. If you want to somehow take that personally there is not much that I can do to help you.

I politely request that you withdraw your false accusations toward me.

But I can say, "oh huh I see why we're saying different things". It looks to me a little like it is because I pointed out an error on the part of a local hero and the clique decided to circle the wagons. Even though the error was blatant and obvious. Vision (and also simple navigation) problems are extremely common among new APers. For an experienced APer to step up and say, "not for me" is irrelevant.

It does not matter if you insist on making an irrelevant distinction like, "There is a big difference between "tunnel vision" and "seeing a tunnel" the former is a visual impairment and the latter is not" -- because it does not change the error of the original observation that "Initially, you'll most likely see exactly as you do right now".

Neither "tunnel vision" nor "seeing a tunnel" is an accurate description of seeing as "you do right now". Nit-piking on the difference between those two distinctions constitutes obfuscation. My post was NOT "all about visual impairment" -- it was about that original characterization of seeing, "exactly as you do right now".