a guide to RTZ-OBEs from LDs

[cube]

That is very interesting about the stabilizing clock displays, why is it do you think that they eventually stabilize instead of continually fluxuating?

RB talks about walking into photos during a projection in order to teleport there. That would be an RTZ->RTZ teleportation.

Do you think that if someone made a picture of their impressions of somewhere in the higher astral planes you could just print out the picture and walk into it in order to have an RTZ->Higher plane teleportation?

[upstream]

I suppose it won't work but we have to test it to be sure. Have you got some idea for an experiment?

[cube]

I'm going to try printing out a picture of the API, shine a flashlight on it, then try walking into it in a projection:

http://www.astralpulse.com/locale/

I haven't had a full projection lately, just a lot of wake/sleep boundary type experimentation so maybe I'm due to have a controlled OBE soon and I can try this.

There's also this guy who reportedly can send a projector on to higher planes:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/LucidCrossroads/gatekeeper.htm

[upstream]

quote:That is very interesting about the stabilizing clock displays, why is it do you think that they eventually stabilize instead of continually fluxuating?

Because I've observed that countless occasions. They could show the real time even when they are not at their right place or has a changed look. I have to hypothesis to explain this mystery: 1. those clocks are not real but there is something in our mind that know the time all the time. The syncronisation of our inner-knowledge and the picture of the clock outside help we to believe that we indeed having an RTZ-OBE which is, as I said before, necessery to hold the RTZ-state. 2. the filaments of the semi-condensed energy body keep contact with the displays although their transmitted sensory informations remain heavily interpretated, thus guised. I suspect that somehow both of these hypothesis could be right, because our inner and outer experiences aren't separated so keenly as we tend to think.

I have to say that the gatekeeper guy from that site is very suspicious. He really looks like he is on something right now. He's even bald like RB. But seriously, it is an interesting idea. I mean, creating a virtual guy then declaring that he is able to transport anyone where he or she wants to be, is genuine. People will believe in that and it will happen. But their experiences will remain hopelessly as it is, a lucid dream.

However, if sufficient aspects of those dreams would be match with anothers' by using a common entrance point like the image of the API then the dream could be shared. In this sense RTZ-OBEs are shared dreams too, they are shared by our waking society.

Please keep me posted here or in PM about the results of your experiments.

[Gandalf]

upstream_

Thanks for the article!

In my view, I find that people get too hung up on trying to establish what is an 'astral projection' from what is a 'lucid dream', from what is a 'normal dream'.

imo, all the above experiences are in fact THE SAME THING. They are ALL astral experiences; even normal dreams are subconscious scenarios being played out on the astral level, albeit on a low level.

The actual difference between them is YOUR OWN LEVEL OF CONSCIOUS AWARENESS. If you enter with almost zero conscious awareness, this s 'dream' level; we do this every night. A little more and it is called a lucid dream, and if you enter fully awake, then you are APing. Entering fully 'awake' or with full conscious awareness is the goal of ap techniques.

I think it is important to realize that the real difference is in fact your own level of conscious awareness, as then you begin to see that you DO in fact have a (low level) astral experience every night, and that in fact, you CAN do it. Achieving astral states does not seem so daunting in future if you see it in this way.

Also you avoid the false issue of 'was it really ap or just a dream?'. Instead you see that they are one and the same; however, you might set yourself the goal of increasing your awareness next time you are out.
imo the expression 'it was just a dream' is one of the worst in the language. People generally take 'dreams' for granted and have no idea of their true nature.

A good tip I recommend is next time you find yourself out of body or even waking up from a 'dream'; ie your level of conscious awareness rises one night:
Ask aloud for mental clarity... sounds daft I know, but if you ask for it, I have found that your level of awareness does indeed rise to waking level.
Once this is done you can dismiss your immediate astral surroundings, which is a scenario generated by your subconscious mind (what you call 'dream' level), you will find yourself in the astral proper, or even in the RTZ floating around somewhere.

Regards,
Douglas

[upstream]

Thanks for your feedback, it's a great complement for my guide. I agree with you in many aspect except three....

1. I think dreams and astral projections are different. Speaking in the terms of The Monroe Institue (which popularity is increasing
in this forum) normal dreams occur in upper-mid Focus 22. The startpoint of my guide is the lower F22 which is the result of getting conscious control on a false awakening type state. "Real astral experiences" tend to occur above F23.

2. You could hallucinate an entire dreamscape with full awareness.

3. By speaking your intent out loud you're able to raise your awareness above its waking level, however without enough "sensory surface" to grasp into chance for waking up fully will increase with every passing moment.

I think I didn't emphasize this awareness thing enough only mentioned it. So the following is a complement to my guide.

If I raise my level of awareness, the dream environment will gradually become frayed around me. First dream characters will disappear. They don't like it, so they will try to disturb my practice. To avoid that I lock my dream room (enclosed practices) or I'll fly to the roof of my house (which could be the starting place of the outdoor practices).

As a result of increasing my awareness by slow counting, my vision become instable. This occurs in jumps so I'd better to keep my perception in constant sync with the rapidly changing dream. For that purpose I try to notice all the changes on fly and grab objects around me to anchor myself into the dream. If I do the awareness rising for a prolonged period of time eventually I would wake up or I have to re-separate again from my slumbering body to avoid waking up. However, this reseparation takes place again into low F22, because after separation I'll find myself temporally blind and couldn't get vision again before my state reach the stable visual environment of F22, the dream state. This is a pseudo-OBE, controlled false awakening that occurs in a hallucinated room and won't result in RTZ-projection.

Normally I do the awareness raising on the balcon of my house. At the same time I move my attention between points of the hallucinated balcoon and the space outside in order to keep myself grounded into the dream. My balcon is the F21 "landing unit" of my F22 "spaceship" which is my hallucinated house. When quality of the space I look upon from the balcon get the quality of enormous depths I would know I've reached F21 from from outside as opposed to the normal phasing process at which F21 is reached on a "centrifugal vector", from the body through a window of the mind's eye. Nevertheless, both cases will result in 3D blackness but by rising awareness the 3D blackness will surround the remeiniscent of my hallucinated house.

F21 is the edge of space and time as we know it. You could see various entrance structures to various states of consciousness in the form by which your brain interpret them. The brain should be highly active in this state according to the fast fourier analysis of the TMI F21 preset (see last post @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13338&whichpage=1[url])%20perhaps%20in%20order%20to%20interpret%20the%20various%20energy%20structures%20that%20we%20can%20perceive%20from%20this%20state.%20According%20to%20my%20theory%20about%20fluctocondensation%20in%20this%20state%20your%20"energy%20body"%20is%20a%20highly%20decondensated%20energy%20field%20meaning%20that%20its%20size%20should%20be%20commensurate%20with%20the%20size%20of%20the%20Earth's%20magnetopshere.By%20using%20those%20entrance%20structures%20I%20can%20zoom%20into%20the%20"deep%20astral"%20(see%20for%20example%20my%20trip%20into%20"crap%20heaven"%20@%20[url]http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13578), or, as a second option, I could further condensate my energy body by the enclosed (see my guide) or outdoor practices. Along by the process the energy body will decrease in size and increase in density to the point it is able to interact with dense energy fields of "physical" objects. Normally, the dreamer couldn't observe this process directly, though my hypothesis is based exactly on those anomalous experiences.

In F21 there are two options ahead of me to getting real experiences: 1. I could order my system to manifest the symbol of my target into the space then I zoom onto it by fixing my attention on and carefully avoiding flying at the same time; or 2. I could go back to my house to practice enclosed fluctocondensation in a sensory secure environment just as I've described in my guide.

I hope people will understand the significance of this practices, that are, as I see it, the missing link from the current knowledge of astral explorers. I'm sure many would understand this and it would be obvious from now without remembering me or the fact that this guide was ever written.

[rantboi]

Upstream, maybe if you wrote in a more reader-friendly fashion (which might or might not include 'plain' english), more people would reply to this thread.

Unless your goal is to only have intelligent dicussions with like-minded people, and not to inform those 'plain' folks who need help with astral projection or whatever.

Just trying to see what your goal is when posting these things...

-Ater

PS: From my experince, most people aren't overly obsessed with science. On the contrary, it bores them.

[Gandalf]

Rantboi_ I agree with you to a certain extent, but at the same time I also like to see good 'left brained' astral exploration as described by Upstream, even if it involves a more focused reading.

Thanks for your input Upstream.

Douglas

[rantboi]

Gandalf, I agree, but if his goal is to reach the 'regular' folks, he should probably take it down a notch.

Upstream, I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that. Just telling you what I think could improve your response with the more regualr folk. (If they are your goal audiance.)

-Ater

PS: I feel b*tchy.[]

[upstream]

Perhaps the text is little demanding, but hey, the goal isn't lesser. It's a guide about how to project into the real-time zone in order to break through the veil of hallucination and let astral projections possible.

I'm aware the fact that this guide may not for everyone, however, no doubt in my mind, people who need this information would find it at the right time and would understand it properly. Spreading informations is the purpose of this forum. Isn't it?

Also, this thread is indeed for informing people, not for conversation. Why? Because it's a guide. I've done my best to explain what I'm doing and what for. I've tried to give some hypothesis how those might supposed to work as well.

If something is not clear about it I might answer, because this information is very important. However, it would be better if everyone would understand it on his own and would find further application themselves. This practice speaks for itself, try it if you are interested. At that point conversation would be more than nice - I want to learn new tricks too.

See, I got a promise: if I get my job done I would evolve further. So I done my best by appling a strategy which now seems to failed. I have no talent nor time to explain myself in plain English. As you see, I have even great difficulties with the grammar. So I've chosen a language that was felt most appropriate. It is free from personal interpretations - almost exact like science. Unfortunately, it is far from science but still boring.

Look, we have to work very hard for our extasy. That means study, understanding and exercises in our waking hours in order to being able to enjoy ourselves in the astral without all that ballast. Logical thinking is the human way to understand ourselves and the world around. Mixing scientific understanding with mysticism could be our future.

If someone take the time to understand this guide would see that its essence is actually very simple. I've just tried to squeeze into it as much supporting information as I could. I'm in hurry, from September I wouldn't much time to posting here.

Did you take the time to understand my reply Rantboy? I don't think so. Just look at the time of our posts...

But we remain friends. Chrew it! To solve this abrupt tension...hihi...check out this link...it's for you.

http://img1.uploadimages.net/305366h.jpg

Is it good, isn't it?

[rantboi]

quote:Did you take the time to understand my reply Rantboy? I don't think so. Just look at the time of our posts...

Everything went fine until I came to this line. Why wouldn't I take the time to understand? (BTW, it's 'rantboi,' and if that's hard, just call me Ater.)

quote:Is it good, isn't it?

It was okay. I didn't really laugh much.[8D]

-Ater

[upstream]

That pic somehow got me. I especially like the guy's demanding look. He seems disciplined but probably in a wrong way. Maybe this is the case with me.

Stay away from this thread until you get some constructive, Ater. Your second input was useless, obviously driven by anger or frustration or something else I don't want to contact with. If you still need to say something send me a PM. (The mistype of your name wasn't deliberated).

>>> upstream

[rantboi]

quote:Stay away from this thread until you get some constructive, Ater.

You're the only one who's getting a bit uncounstructive in this thread. Instead of acting like an adult to discuss the things I kindly brought up, you resort to attacking me.

Just to make things clear: You have no right to tell me where I should or shouldn't post. This is a public forum. You posted a thread. I had a few questions. You decided to attack me for no apparent reason. Unless you can lock the threads you don't want me to respond to, I have every right to post where ever I want.[]

-Ater

PS: If you have any more personal attacks, please send them to my PM box.

[upstream]

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/224304fireman.jpg[/image]
You're right, Ater. No more personal attack, I promise. This post is dedicated to you..

Tom wrote:

quote:I have often wondered how much of our perception in reality relies on sensory inoput. If putting a number on it, it would not surpise me if 1% sensory input, and 99% imagination is enough to keep us stabalized and locked into "physical" perception.

I too won't be surprised but heard the estimated ratio of 1/9. We may have to consider the possibility that the external world isn't exactly the way it appears to be. The brain uses very little sensory input to create the world. According to some modern theory about sight visual perception is more like a special form of dreaming, an upstream of memories.

Along with the fact that fixed gazing in lucid dreams will stop rapid eye movements and rock REM sleep, hindering the reflux of memories by disregarding peripheral sensory input could serve as an explanation for the vulnerability of dream objects. For example, after we get used to a new home change of objects/furnitures could be totally unnoticed. It's quite possible that we walk inside the mental representations of our homes even in our waking hours, and in this case our real environment isn't much differing from the F22 "landing unit." Or at least isn't, until someone take the effort to broke the reflux by forcing silence and mindully observing his environment. This would be more powerfull if one combined with fixed gazing (trakata). I have some intersting experiences about eye fixation in both states (in wakfulness mostly via mirror gazing) that led me to conclude that in this sense there are no much differences between waking and dreaming.

I have had the impression countless of times - mosty after separating into an instable dream room - that my environment is changing somehow just over my capacity to catch it in action. The feeling of being in an ad hoc reality in very uncomfortable but there are many machanism designed to hide that state (my favorite: being unable to see). At first, I didn't understand why this effect would wear off by time I spend in a given lucid dream. Later I realised that not my perception got better by time but my lucidity is lessened, because every time when I've done some sensory exercises I got aware that gloomy feeling again. It is like being enclosed in a bubble that in could be the result of a greater stream of refluxed memories we used to have in our waking states.

The central and peripheral part of our vision seem governed by different aspects of our consciousness. The central vision could be our exclusive window onto "external reality." It is a frustratingly little spot and the brain does various trick to hide this fact alone. Thinking about this makes me feel enclosed and squeezed into a very limited reality. Perhaps peripheral vision even doesn't exist in this context, because it is obviously ruled by subconscious processes and serve as a playground for the reflux of sensory memories. Paradoxically it seems to be a more authentic door for our perception. It's a widespeard belief that peripheral vision is the favorite place for spirits to manifest onto.

It could be turn out that we are unable to perceive other than our preprogrammed shematas. It is like playing Worms 3D on the Net. Every player has a computer capable to dechiper and display in 3D those very little data stream that responsible for creating visual coherence of the shared game. It is like we would be maniacs in the end of our personal tunnels, or we would be gigantic beings that seeing the same peepshow through their little personalised holes. I want to turn my attention away from this hole, because I desperately yearn for a more brighter and broader room to exist in. Funny that I try to accomplish it by spending so many hours looking to a monitor or the darkness behind my closed eyes. But the most important practices I know that serve this purpose are those I written in my guide - thanks for Castaneda. Dreaming could be the preferred way to free ourself from the world-illusion. I suppose it could be accomplished by 10-30 years of practice, so I need about 3-23.

One of the simplest method to check the realness of our experiences is fixating our gazes. In astral projections sensory processing is supposedly inaffected by the brain and physical eyes are motionless, thus fixating dream gaze doesn't matter at all. The practice of serial zooming as I've described at the end of my guide (outdoor practices) could work as a gentle force for gradually stopping REM sleep without loosing visuals. The first station is the RTZ somwhere between REM & NREM sleep. The brain is still very active but not as much as in F21 or lucid dreaming.

F21 could be reached by increasing awareness and expectation for seeing through the veil of hallucinations. If I get a sight of an astral object in F21 and able to zoom to it my brain should drop into deep sleep within a couple of seconds - a trick we are unable to do from wakfulness. At that point movements of "astral eyes" will be detached from they biological counterparts which become motionless in NREM. According to my theory about binaural entertainment (http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13338&whichpage=1) exclusively higher brain areas are targeted by wave patterns of F23-F27 in order to shut down the cortex into 4Hz. This amount of cortical syncronisation (low theta) makes those acute perceptions & sharp cognition totally impossible that one used to experience in any regular astral projection. This means that astral projections are very little if any to do with the brain.

If one able to set up an experiment in which the subject need to use his higher mental functions to solve a problem that require great amount of real time even a simple EEG-monitoring session would prove or disprove astral projection. (I plan to bring an EEG to home and check out this transitions. It would be interesting to monitor hippocampal activity too to figure out whether download of astral memories are occur on fly or after/around awakening. True nature of OBEs & Phasing could be revolve around the results.) Normally OBE type astral experiences are squezzed into moments of our "real time". They are flashes of vison that require mind split to get downloaded but I've read a TMI script about someone who channeled his experiences on fly. Obviously there were no loss of memories except those that were not verbalised. What does it mean? Another dissociaton between brain parts? I still advise Matti Pitkänen writings about semi-trance ftp://rock.helsinki.fi/pub/misc/matpitka/cbooknew/semitrancec.pdf. According to him some "brain parts" (my note: not anatomical parts but "dispersed" functional units) are able to dissociate and get "asleep" or entangled with our Higher Selves while others remain "awake" and channel the experience. If this is possible we have something we need to think about Tom because our favorite matter, connection between OBE & Phasing seems to revolve around those experiences.

quote:It makes one wonder what the stabilzing characteristics of RTZ consist of.

In an RTZ-OBE central vision is somewhat "blurred" (or more precisely it is very difficult to observe). As opposed to dreaming periferal vision seems to be responsible for state stabilizaton that, as I suspect, is the result of a "sensory feedback." The stabilizing effect of sensory feedback is supposed to work in the following loop-mechanism: (1) the energy body "perceives" the object through interaction between their overlapping energy fields, (2) something in our mind/brain translate the raw sensory input into the most appropriate dream picture (there is lesser interpretation thus more objectivity when the "condensation degrees" of the interacting fields are matching), and (3) driven by the expectation that things can not disappear our sensory system try to hold the state of energy body that makes this perception possible thus stabilizing its current state. The three components form a feedback loop mechanism that will decrease in effect as the experience become more contamined by hallucinations. The energy body start to fluctuate and eventually the state that responsible for RTZ-perception will collapse. Density of the energy body will rapidly decrease accompained by increasing uncertainity of its localisation (process of decondensation from F12). As a result of decondensation new types of fields come into view or the old ones are become so heavily interpreted that cannot be considered otherwise than hallucination. Of course it is only a hypothesis and currently I see no way for validation.

Thanks for the DeGracia writings. It is interesting seeing him joined to the LaBerge team. I've read his book, 'do OBE' - he was obviously a stone occultist at that time... How did you get that picture of my camel, Krapulax? Have you found him? Feed him with carrots and he will let you to sleep with him. Anyways, thanks for your wife for the photo she sent to me. Seems you and you guide make some serious efforts in F10 (ref. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13528).

[image]http://img1.uploadimages.net/879984f10.jpg[/image]

Sad to see you cut your sideburns...

[upstream]

"Wakefulness is nothing other than a dream-like state modulated by the constraints of sensory inputs." That definately sounds like something I would say, but it was, in fact Rudolfo Llinas, Professor of Physiology and Biophysics at New York University, School of Medicine. It was difficult to find him because I've remembered him as Rudolf Leonard.

I've found a relevant paper by Google with the following keywords: <"rudolfo llinas" dreaming> @:
http://mind.ucsd.edu/papers/diss/disshtml/chapter3/ch3.html
For my cybernetic approach, especially the section 3.4 is interesting.

An another shot of wisdom from Ramesh Jain: "Perception is basically a controlled hallucination process."

That's enough for now. I'm sure you as a clinical psychologist (and enthusiastic but amateur hypnotist like many of us) are already know about hypnodisk, but others might be surprised and have some fun with it. It can be downloaded from this link:

http://www.hypnotic.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/freeserve/hypno2.exe

Double click on the downloaded file and choose target directory to unzip (for example: 'C:'). I've scanned it with Avast! 4.0 HE and found no virus inside. Double click on the unzipped hypno.exe file then press space. You'll see a vortex. Stare into the middle for about 1 min then stare into your face in a mirror or simply look down on your hand.

Thanks for your inputs Tom. I've understand and agree with you. Now I want to paint something...

Seems you do remember me from my previous nick, s***stream...  Just to know: my anal intruder electrodes are almost ready. I'll shake people into lucidity from behind regardless to how fat, lazy one is or being in the state of thinking about sex, consumption or finding the romantic love of his/her life all the time! Be prepared.

>>> upstream

[wisp]

upstream,
Thanks for all the info. I find it all so interesting. I find it's easy to follow what you write.It takes some thinking about.

I have a stupid question. Could you give your explanation of what phasing means? I can't seem to understand it's exact meaning.

[upstream]

Not a stupid question at all, but considering the importance of Phasing and my limited experiences with it, I'm afraid I'm not a qualified person to answer you.

My experiences with Phasing are limited to my first two years of OBEing. At that time I was thought it is an advanced form of dreaming - something I still believe in. For me the meaning of dreaming is that has changed forever.

As you may already know, Phasing is technically a special form of WILD (Wake Induced Lucid Dream) in which you would go directly into the dream state without having the feelings of leaving your body.

Until recently, I was more interested in its theoretical aspects. Now it seems I'm at the verge of unite those theories with my OBE & dreaming practices to form a new, personal style of OBEing.

I cant stop until I find my peace,

>>> upstream

[wisp]

Thanks upstream,
I can understand what WILD is because I experience that sometimes. Since I do the polarity flip maneuver while going into an obe I may bypass the other forms of phasing as you have suggested in a previous post. I do know I have not advanced at all. This is probably because of lack of trying or practice.I'm learning things though.

Good luck on your plans, it sounds very exciting.

Do you have help from other spirits in your travels?

[upstream]

I have some tricks to invoke help while traveling. Asking questions aloud and plugging the ears of my dream body has a great potential for communication. Most of the times I didn't understand the first words because tuning to the voice takes some time. Some voices are like coming from a telephone center coupled with some mechanical noises, others seem to come from real persons. I have been heard a broad range of voices from young boys to old ladies. I need more experimentation to uncover all the possible sources, however it has been proven that most voices comes from other dreamers and independent entities.

Once I tried to believe that a voice of a young man I was heard in a dream came from someone who is outside the scope of my perception. When I imagined that he we in a situation of trying to speak through invisible walls, I experienced a brief sensory chaos. The next moment I found myself in a calm conversation with him sitting at a table. Our dreams seemd to mixed around the focal point of that table. Later I worked out a simple method for uniting sensory bubbles based on a specific attention driving similar I've described in my guide.

On the other hand, the robotic voices seem to come from my energy body/subconsciousness. I've found that dealing with my energy body is require hightened awareness and clear purpose. I've reached a point where I use real definitons to get a desired outcome. This is especially true when I'm fly in an autopilot mode. It happened to me after many years of flying that got to point where I'm practically unable to fly on my own. There is a gloomy environment between lucid dreams and RTZ-projections. Well that is where I got stuck. Moving is very difficult in that state yet I've observed a heavy traffic. Sometimes the autopilot function of my energy body the only option to move. Sometmes it seems indistinguishable from getting external help.

I could use regular dream characters as shells to let guidance into my dreams. All I have to do is talk to dream people as they are already would be animated by the person/force I want to contact with. I create an empty shell by asking aloud a family members to come in, then I start to controll our conversation by pretending that the figure is already inhabited by my target. They look will change accordingly, mostly in unnoticided jumps. I am still extremly cautious with those "people" because my experiences make me believe that some odd things are waiting outside of my sensory bubble all the time ready to use any means to get inside.

Recently I got the idea for an another method that seems the most secure so far. What I do is simply speaking to the air like someone would be at that spot. It's funny but works great if I want more than a disembodied sound, but not want to go as far as to manifest a full apparition. I've read an interesting article about the connection between lateral preference of sensed presence and its emotional connotation so the next time I would try to imagine my guide at my left. By the way, the most friendy helps I could ever get seem to choose this invisible form. This forms represent an unobtrusive but potent help, something that able to transport quickly and without exerting any uncertain aim. Sometimes they transport me as a wind or armchar, sometimes I feel myself being grabbed at the level of my stomach.

I'm interested in your experiences with the polarity flip maneuver (I like this name!)

[wisp]

Wow! Thanks for all these desciptions, upstream. I can now compare these with other dream characters.

I had a slight variation of my polarity flip recently. I was visiting my daughter at her place (change of sleeping location). We were both drifting off to sleep. She had something additional to say to me. I was already in the flip zone. I thought she was in front of me talking and I was looking at her in the dark. Then I realized I was disoriented (I must get past that misnomer). Then I came back, she was behind me. It was weird.

[upstream]

Yeah that was a spontaneus flip. I still didn't practice it from waking. I'm sad seeing the days passing by.

Good luck to everyone,

>>> upstream

[wisp]

upstream,
Yesterday during a nap I recognized I did a polarity flip while waking up from a nap. During this time I misinterpreted my environment. The location was wrong, the person (a neighbor) I misinterpreted as a strange intruder. I screamed just before I actually awoke. The neighbor wasn't aware of my presence by the window. He didn't hear me scream. Once awake, I recognized him as my neighbor down the street. He was an innocent victim of my disoriented state. If I had gone back to sleep I may have been under the false impression that he was sneaking around my house, or some other distortion.In reality he was only walking up to the door and ringing the door bell.

quote: I have some tricks to invoke help while traveling. Asking questions aloud and plugging the ears of my dream body has a great potential for communication. Most of the times I didn't understand the first words because tuning to the voice takes some time. Some voices are like coming from a telephone center coupled with some mechanical noises, others seem to come from real persons. I have been heard a broad range of voices from young boys to old ladies. I need more experimentation to uncover all the possible sources, however it has been proven that most voices comes from other dreamers and independent entities.

Once I tried to believe that a voice of a young man I was heard in a dream came from someone who is outside the scope of my perception. When I imagined that he we in a situation of trying to speak through invisible walls, I experienced a brief sensory chaos. The next moment I found myself in a calm conversation with him sitting at a table. Our dreams seemd to mixed around the focal point of that table. Later I worked out a simple method for uniting sensory bubbles based on a specific attention driving similar I've described in my guide.

On the other hand, the robotic voices seem to come from my energy body/subconsciousness. I've found that dealing with my energy body is require hightened awareness and clear purpose. I've reached a point where I use real definitons to get a desired outcome. This is especially true when I'm fly in an autopilot mode. It happened to me after many years of flying that got to point where I'm practically unable to fly on my own. There is a gloomy environment between lucid dreams and RTZ-projections. Well that is where I got stuck. Moving is very difficult in that state yet I've observed a heavy traffic. Sometimes the autopilot function of my energy body the only option to move. Sometmes it seems indistinguishable from getting external help.

I could use regular dream characters as shells to let guidance into my dreams. All I have to do is talk to dream people as they are already would be animated by the person/force I want to contact with. I create an empty shell by asking aloud a family members to come in, then I start to controll our conversation by pretending that the figure is already inhabited by my target. They look will change accordingly, mostly in unnoticided jumps. I am still extremly cautious with those "people" because my experiences make me believe that some odd things are waiting outside of my sensory bubble all the time ready to use any means to get inside.

Recently I got the idea for an another method that seems the most secure so far. What I do is simply speaking to the air like someone would be at that spot. It's funny but works great if I want more than a disembodied sound, but not want to go as far as to manifest a full apparition. I've read an interesting article about the connection between lateral preference of sensed presence and its emotional connotation so the next time I would try to imagine my guide at my left. By the way, the most friendy helps I could ever get seem to choose this invisible form. This forms represent an unobtrusive but potent help, something that able to transport quickly and without exerting any uncertain aim. Sometimes they transport me as a wind or armchar, sometimes I feel myself being grabbed at the level of my stomach.

I found all this similiar to some of my own dream states (except the dream people being shells),I don't have control.

I too suspect mechanical voice is my own. I traveled back in time once. Using this mechanical voice I made a remark about myself while gazing at myself at the age of 3! I was in real time when I did this. I don't know if my idea of real time is the same as described as rtz explained here.The 3 year old experience happened after the 9 year old experience. This hints of a regression process to me.

It sounds like you have contact with a guide. I have had a similiar contact with a guide at a table. I was not aware of how I got there. You seem to describe the circumstances in more detail. I think your on the right track! The difference for me is that I wasn't able to hear what me and the guide were saying. I was more of an observer than a participant in this. I was about 9 years old in this scene.

Do you suspect these bubbles being orbs?

[upstream]

Have you had a false awakening in a flipped state? If your neighbor didn't recognized you why was he victimised?

As for the guy at that table in my dream, I'm sure he was not my guide. Considering my later experiences about shared dreaming, he was an another dreamer.

I have no contact with regular guides. Years ago I meet an eagle on my way to home. I was frightened when I saw him circling around me. He sat down on my arm and we had a fantastic jorney together. It was night in the dream we started but the rest of the dream was very bright and stable. At first we flew above a fantastic landscape. Sometimes I felt we fly very high, sometimes it seemed we are just  above a miniature land. I saw a skeleton of a giant animal coated by little villages and some strange creatures walking away. We flew very long and I couldnt follow where we went.  

Now I know this is trick we require sometimes to free our attention from a heavily interpreted astral environment. Currently I use my palm to concentrate on, not the landscape so my flyings are very brief. Progress toward my target means some internal changes that I track by asking the disemodied voices.

So we got into a city and the eagle turned into a man without my notice. The next thing I could remember that we were sat in a harbour watching the ships come and go. I asked him to make me lucid in my regular dreams. I couldn't remember our conversation except that we made some deal and my amazement how real the city was. I've also observed tiny pores on his face.

When we finsihed our meet I was excited and sad from what I was told. I tired to fly home but the city was surrounded by a grid like structure I couldnt get through. At that point two other people appeared and explained why. First they seemed to be some of my old class-mates then turned into unknown but still familiar people. Perhaps they are my guides, I don't know. All I can do now is pulling some guidence into my dreams when I needed to. If guides are really exist they respect my wish to be alone.

quote:Do you suspect these bubbles being orbs?

2-3 years ago I've made some efforts to compare my notes about my RTZ-movements with light balls. I concluded that in the RTZ I behave similar to those balls. I think some orbs are condensed energy bodies of spirits or some other intelligent forces. Others are just natural phenomena that having the same physical envelope (ionised gases) without underlaying consciousness.

Phyisical laws seem to play a great role determining movemements in that form, but this not exclude the possibility that some of those balls have consciousness. According to my theory, more remote an energy field that pass by the RTZ more decondensated its corresponding phyical field projection from the point of view of an RTZ observer. Power lines and power stations literally curve the space-time. This is the result of the Heaviside components of the electrical flow that most textbooks miss to mention. This component is perpenicular to the well known Poynting flow that moves inside and around the wire. The Heaviside flow assembled from the entire vacumm and 3D-space representing an enormous amount of energy that miss our circuits and couldn't used by our electrical systems.

I saw some pictures about light blobs turning into space-ship type UFOs around high tension power lines. I heard that crews of many shooted UFOs sit in a circle and seem to control the flight without any identificable technical equipment. I think the crew are dimensional travellers, just like we humans would be in the near future. I see the future of The Monroe Institue like this: 5-12 people are laying in a circle around a computer that synchronise they focus states. Because they strictly synchronsied focus and intent they share the same dream and own the same energy body. They dream themselves into a ship or a room with windows they mentally constructed beforehand. Those human explorers would manifest to other beings similarly like UFOs for us. I've already taken some steps to using ship like dream rooms by doing some "horizon-enginering" in F21/F22.

However if you refer to bubbles from my post you quoted then you may misunderstood me. By bubbles I meant personal dream environments of different dreamers. Those bubbles are separating and uniting when dreamers are meet and divorce. For instance, you invite a dreamer by saying his name aloud and he come in your dream bedroom. If you focus your attention on his body you may found yourself in a place you never seen before. This place is the other dreamer dreams about. However, if you refuse the pull by sustaining sights of elements from your original environment your "bubbles" would only unite forming a strange mix of the two places. Sensory bubbles are similar to virtual conference rooms we would likely encounter in our lifetime.

[wisp]

upstream,

quote: Have you had a false awakening in a flipped state?

I have only recognized the flipping thing within the past year. I first became aware of it when I could see my astral body above my physical body, then the flip occurs. I don't have false awakenings.I do have what could be called hypnagogic things happen. Is this the same thing?

quote:If your neighbor didn't recognized you why was he victimised?

I shouldn't have used the word victimized. I wondered if that wasn't necessary and confusing to say.Nevermind that.

Interesting about your viewpoint on guides.

I will have to think about your views on orbs. These are more interesting things to think about! I might have some more questions.

Thanks

[ralphm]

Upstream, There is a lot of good info in this topic, somehow it relates to having a quality OBE experience, which seems to be lacking in a lot of projectors. A few questions-
Is the complaint of not seeing things lit up, not being able to move, just a part of the RTZ and not the astral? These things seem to happen when I don't seem to have enough 'energy' to reach the astral.
What part do the chakras have in these ideas? I equated the problems I had with a lack of awareness, sometimes the awareness now mantra seemed to work, sometimes staring at objects seemed to help, but last night I had a lenghthy OBE and came back to a place near my house but I had such brow chakra energy I had really good sight. Unfortunately my wife moved at this point and woke me. Maybe my brow chakra development/activity is borderline for having  exceptional OBE experiences?
I know that Casteneda talked about silencing the inner dialog, but people report that they have better OBE's when they keep a dialog going. Could this be a focusing technique, just like focusing on an object or awareness now! ?