Drugs

[Gandalf]

Here Frank, these 'focus three' areas of counsiousness.. from what i have experienced of them myself and what I've read, once constructed, they appear very stable, as stable as anything physical in fact, and seem to exist independantly of whether I am 'there' or not. 'The park' for example, appears to exist in a common form that trundles along of its own accord whether i am there or not.

I remember Ginny was talking once of how she was in some vast and elabourate complex; she found that even the present occupants didnt know who originally set it up; all they knew was that it had been constructed by people yonks ago who had long since moved on, but now others were coming in and staying there and decided to leave it as it was, since it was so impressive.. Again, the created enviroment itself seemed permanent, despite who was occupying it.

How does this fit with your focus three model?

Doug

[Ben K]

Frank:

1 more quick question. This may seem a bit odd, but I have also heard of alot of people communicating with there pets telepathically, as well as other people, while under the influence.

Would you say that this takes place in F3 or F4? Also, could you even communicate with a pet?

[Frank]

Doug:

Yes, I am aware of Ginny's recount and I'm not at variance. Focus 3 is very physical-like as it is an area of common consensus reality, as opposed to Focus 2, which is an area of individual creation. But in all these areas, the reality exists whether you are focused there or not. The only difference is the nature of the subjective energy interactions.

Ultimately, it's a question of what you are moving through.

Each of us moves through our own individual continuum of consciousness from Focus 1 to Focus 4. Or more rather Focus 4 to Focus 1 (as Focus 1 is the end result). This is our focus stream of attention. We can move "up and down" this continuum of consciousness and view the events that we offer ourselves. But all the while, we are moving within our own mind. We may subjectively interact with another focus that we objectively view as another person, or we may subjectively interact with a pool of energy that has been deposited that we objectively view as a building. But all the while we are situated within our own continuum of consciousness. We are never "independent" of our own mind. All that changes is the nature of the subjective energy interaction.

The individual continuum(s) of consciousness that related to the person/people who constructed the buildings of which you speak, still exist. The continuum still holds the energy deposits, and it is that which the people were subjectively interacting with, that they objectively viewed as buildings. What it all boils down to, is what we perceive as objective reality is, in fact, a translation of the underlying subjective energy expression.

In the physical, we may sit on the toilet, drive a car, or go down the pub with the lads, but we are still within our own body. All that changes is the nature of the interaction. Problem is, people get a bit "body" fixated and fail to realise that a body is merely an objective representation of the accumulation of a particular set of expectations regarding the enactment of certain types of actions within particular areas of consciousness. It holds no other purpose. Ultimately, we are not a body but a focus personality moving along a particular stream of attention within the wider reality.

Someone made a point against me the other day, saying, how can it possibly be subjective reality when you can view it objectively? Unfortunately, this is the equivalent of watching the sun and concluding the sun revolves around the earth. It's obvious the sun revolves around the earth, I can see it does therefore it must. Well, science makes its living cutting great swathes through stuff like that.

Objectivity, in fact, is a translation of the underlying subjective energy expression. I stop short of saying that objective reality is an illusion, because it is very real. Anyone who thinks objective reality is an illusion should teach themselves better by walking into the nearest lamppost. But objective reality does not exist as an independent entity. It is a translation of the underlying subjective energy.

Without that underlying subjective energy, objective reality would just black out. It would be the equivalent of pulling the plug on a piece of electrical equipment. Everything physical would just disintegrate into individual atoms and then individual atoms themselves would disintegrate into progressively smaller particles (including us). This would hold true within Focus 3 also, even though structures within Focus 3 are not made of atoms, but of what are commonly called "finer" states of matter.

Reading this people may perhaps be wondering where all this subjective energy comes from... it comes from Focus 4 of consciousness. Focus 4 is the subjective energy source that "fuels" our whole sense of objective reality.

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

Ben:

This is possible, though I have never done it myself, but in theory it is possible and telepathy is an interaction within F2.

Yours,
Frank

NOTE: I edited this post as I initially said F1 in error, I meant F2.

[Ben K]

Frank: This may or may not be wayyy too off topic but could you define "subjective" for me? i know the traditional "dependent on your thoughts,emotions, etc" but would you sort of explain the whole subjective energy thing for me?

Also, if the energy in this "physical world" is objective, how is it that monks and highly trained people can alter it, via telekinisis, etc? Do they alter the translation of the subjective energy?

[Nostic]

I think many of you guys are selling drugs short. I used to think in the same way to an extent. I had no interest in trying any drug. But frustration with my practice became too much and I have taken the plunge recently. I should note that I've never in my life done any hard drugs. Most of my experience has been with Salvia tincture. I've also smoked Salvia and a few other legal herbal blends. In all honesty, when on these drugs, I've never experienced anything other than a amplified version of what I feel everyday when I'm doing my energy work or breathing exercises. I have really no desire to "trip", get high, or get spaced-out. But I feel I've genuinely been helped by these substances. They help to relax my body, which leads me to achieve a deeper breath and to raise my energy to higher levels. These effect do tend to wear off as the drug wears off. But at the same time, they can be recreated if you continue to practice without the use of the drugs.

It should be remembered that shamanistic use of drugs has an ancient history. It really depends on what your intention is and how you approach the situation. As long as you're using the [legal] drug of your choice as a supplement to your practice, and are responsible in your approach, I think it's really ok.

I've been practicing for 4 years now btw. So it's like I'm some newbie that's gotten frustrated and turned to drugs after a coupe of weeks.

[greggkroodsma]

Has anybody tried using drugs as a means to attain the experiense like: ie Nitrous Oxide, dmt, Ketamine  etc etc?

Drugs don't take you into any kind of experience, they numb the things that hold you back from the experience.  If you didn't have to worry about the flesh and if we didn't have the heavy elements pumped into our atmosphere, we could probably ride the waves of solar wind to the next planet.  But, somewhere along the line of history, we gained flesh; and that is what holds us back. 

The experience I have had with Nitrous Oxide is when I go to the dentist and I can't figure out why they want me back so much.  Might be that they want to give me some gas.   

Realize that the elemental content of the earth is slowly being leached out by the acid in the rain.  The earth is just like your body; your body too is in equillibrium between acid and alkaline.  In Amsterdam, hemp grows everywhere, but the hemp there out in the open has no drug in it; no THC.  The 'pot' sold in the shops are different though; they grow them in the shops.  Take the seed from a plant grown in the shop and plant it outside, it will slowly lose the THC.  The drugs that are around now, like the mushroom, is different.  I have only done one kind, that's Psyllicibin, I guess.  And It was a very enlightening experience, something akin to what the astronauts experince in space.  But, I love pot!  I like Melatonin, but too much Melatonin for too long will do the opposite. 

5-HTP is the precursor to seratonin which is the precursor to melatonin, but 5-HTP is a calming neurotransmitter and too much will make you fly into a rage, like your body is telling you, 'STOP!'  I just found out that DMT will not effect you unless you take an MAOI with it.  Now 5-HTP, Melatonin, and DMT are almost the same.

DMT - N,N-dimethyltryptamine
Melatonin - 5-methoxy-N-acetyltryptamine
5-HTP - 5-Hydroxytryptophan

[Lighten]

My Dad was friends with a dentist, and one day they went to his practice while it was closed and he was doing some free dental work on my dad. Long story short my dad asked to play with the Nitrous Oxide. He was taking it straight from the bottle (no tube or anything). So he was laying on the chair and took a hit from the bottle, He went OBE. He flew up in the corner of the ceiling and was looking at what the nurse was doing behind his physical body. She was mixing a few things in a bowl. Then he came back and told his friend what had happened. He didn't believe him until he mentioned what the nurse had been doing behind the wall. Then he believed him.

so, sorry for the length but clearly drugs can induce an OBE, no doubt. If you think about it, if OBE's are real, and your consciousness is separating from your body (or shifting focus) then how could a drug still affect you after you have separated. For example, if you projected while you were drunk, I doubt you would still be drunk once you separated or changed your focus. The only think that worries me is that there is so much talk about the mind having to be in a certain brain wave and blah blah blah. I don't understand how it could be both real and in your mind.

[zareste]

I like greg's take on this

Drugs don't take you into any kind of experience, they numb the things that hold you back from the experience.  If you didn't have to worry about the flesh and if we didn't have the heavy elements pumped into our atmosphere, we could probably ride the waves of solar wind to the next planet.  But, somewhere along the line of history, we gained flesh; and that is what holds us back.

I'm no good at projecting, but I have some skills in telepathy and I've noticed I'm the most receptive in a half-asleep - sometimes delirious - state. It's the most effective when my brain is falling asleep but my heart is still beating at the same rate, often during arousal. The sleep state causes your mind to let down all defenses, but the increased heart rate leaves your willpower intact so you can direct this altered state of mind.

It's similar to the effect of many drugs. Lower brain waves and higher heart rate. It seems to me that our brains have 'defenses' that prevent us from using our complete mind when we're awake, disabling telepathy and projection. I don't know why these defenses exist - it may be an evolutionary mechanism to protect us from psychic predators, although I doubt it. All I know is we can do extraordinary things when these defenses go down.

[Stookie]

so, sorry for the length but clearly drugs can induce an OBE, no doubt. If you think about it, if OBE's are real, and your consciousness is separating from your body (or shifting focus) then how could a drug still affect you after you have separated.

Because a drug not only effects the physical body, but the etheric and astral counterparts as well. The drug itself has it's own astral counterparts.

My argument for this is: if it was really as simple as taking a drug to have an OBE, many, many, many more people would be doing it. There would be less of a debate as to whether it exists or not. More studies could be done in a lab.

But no matter how simple it sounds, you can't have reliable, controllable OBE's without clarity, awareness, & concentration. The exercises that help develop these qualities also strengthen chakras/energy centers in relation to the etheric and astral bodies as well. All of these things factor into AP which is why I believe drugs can never get a person very far if they want to incorporate AP into their daily life.

If there was a short cut, we would know it by now.

[Lighten]

Because a drug not only effects the physical body, but the etheric and astral counterparts as well. The drug itself has it's own astral counterparts.

That's a good point Stookie. I guess it all comes down to what you believe.

I wansn't arguing towards there being a drug that can induce an OBE whenever you want one. All I'm saying is that it worked before, so to all those people saying drugs cant induce an OBE are wrong.   

[ascended]

You can use certains drugs to have an OBE but once you are there you don't know how to manage the experience because the amount of lucidity in less than what you need.
A lot of people using drugs are having OBEs all the time, but they don't know they are because they never have one by themselves.
You master the OBE experience when you can have OBEs at will and not induced by external things.
Nevertheless, you can have a drug induced OBE experience as part of your exploratory process, but this is better if it comes after you have had OBEs by yourself, as part of your personal intention and development.
If you need drugs to have OBEs all the time you better check what is happening. The shamman does not use his plants all the time, because they are a tool for when it is needed, and in this case the drug related issue has other connotations because we are talking about plants and not about what some people find in our modern cities.
It is better if you strengthen your consciousness muscles first and only then you are ready to face energies so powerful and overwhelming without the risk of been subdued and tied by them in the first assault.

Be well!

[ascended]

For those here interested in iniciatory experiences, here is a place you can check out:

http://www.karunavine.com/4.html

As always, use your discernement, for this experiences are for true seekers.

[Mandalore]

I am fairly new to the idea of OBE and i have yet to do any psychedelics/entheogens (an entheogen is something that causes one to have a spiritual experience. all psychedelics are entheogens) but i have done quite a bit of research on boht subjects as well as shamanism.

First off in response to:

Personally, I find that if someone has had an experience whilst on a particular drug, I don't qualify it as a "genuine" experience.

I mean, if you chomp away on a handful of mushrooms, and then start seeing things and so on, wouldn't you always think to yourself "well, hey, that was some experience, but it was the mushrooms - it wasn't really me."  And you could end up relying on mushrooms, which is pretty grim, cause they taste horrible (so I've been told...)

I believe drugs totally invalidates an experience.  That's my opinion anyway.

Sarah

You are on a website pertaining to Astral Projection which is completely subjective, yet you say that an experience on a drug doesn't qualify as a genuine experience? That makes absolutely no sense. What makes the experience someone has while on an entheogen any less real than Astral Projection. Both are subjective experiences.


Right before coming to this thread i read about Frank's idea of "phasing" and i think that his idea and the ideas put forth by many "psychonauts" fit together very well. The idea that the astral is merely a shift in ones awareness, and that one can shift awareness into different focuses coincides with the idea of an "altered state of mind" cause by entheogens.

It then makes sense that the entheogens dont actually cause the "trip" but that they cause the mind to shift it awareness to a higher level.

One of the most interesting entheogens is DMT. DMT is a chemical that is found in every living thing. DMT is also argueably the most powerful entheogen known to man. In humans it is produced in the pineal gland. Scientists believe that DMT is responsible for the phenomenon known as a NDE (near death experience) as it is released into the brain when the body under goes extreme shock. I find that very interesting as i later started reading about Astral Projection and how many believe that a NDE is actually a forced OBE. DMT is naturally released in the brain during death. In my reading of astral projection it seems that death is a final projection of one out of the body, but for good. Could DMT be used to cause such a projection? i.e. death.

It seems that with what i have learned that this very well could be the case.

I have read many trip reports of people that have used DMT as an entheogen and they seem very similiar to many trip reports of astral projectors.

Terrence Mckenna is one of the world's most foremost Psychonauts. His description of a DMT trip sounds very similiar to astral travel and it seems that he came in contact with astral beings or other conscious beings.

Audio of his experience can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc01EPmnHSQ


DMT and Salvia which are both considered the most powerful hallucinogens known to man, are both short acting and extremely intense and both cause CEVs (closed eye visuals). After i read Frank's idea of phasing and how that one closes one's eyes and and focuses on noticing and turning ones awareness into one's self, it would seem that hallucinogens such as DMT and Salvia could possibly cause one to raise one inner awareness. I have actually had CEVs from smoking marijuana, which apparently doesn't happen to a lot of people.

Also i talked to someone recently about their experience with salvia and he said that the entire time he was attempting to re-enter his body. So it seems to have induced an OBE.

And on the matter that taking entheogens could hinder your ability to project and induce OBEs i think this is highly false, as many shamans use entheogens and also talk about projecting.

[slapbasser1121]

i don't do drugs in the physical realm but they're kinda fun to do in the astral 

[Xanth]

i don't do drugs in the physical realm but they're kinda fun to do in the astral 

You do "astral drugs"?  O_o
You're seriously going to have to explain that one a bit more if you want anyone to take you seriously.  LoL

And if you're just joking... then... 

[Stookie]

Someone once asked if you could do drugs in the astral.

Think about it: people use drugs to alter their state of consciousness. If you're astral, you've already altered your state of consciousness. What would the point be? To make is less vivid?

[kurtykurt42]

What if their was an astral drug that would densify your astral / energy body body (i.e. add more mass to it). That Way you could project to the RTZ and be seen by others in this 3rd dimension.

[personalreality]

You should be able to synthesize something like that on your own in the astral.  We can each have our own personal "imagination meth lab". 

The problem with using drugs to achieve AP or other altered states is that in the "western world" the quality of and connection to the drugs is usually very poor.  What I mean by that is that the people who use substances to induce altered states (like shamans) don't just buy some [insert drug name here] and trip out.  These people have an intimate relationship with the plant that helps them on their journey (I wouldn't trust artificially synthesized drugs like LSD, yes I know it was synthesized from ergot, but the process is entirely different than the one used by a shaman to produce his ally).  The shaman often grows the plant themselves or journeys into the natural environment around them to harvest just enough for their purposes.  They have a reverence for the plant that we often lack in the western world.  The actual process of turning the raw plant into something that can be ingested is one of love.  Each step is important and the process isn't just about making the drug, its a ritual.  What they are doing is a magickal ritual to "invoke" and "worship" the god/dess that lives in that particular plant.  While it may seem irrelevant to a skeptic who is only interested in the science behind the chemical interactions in the brain, the ritual is just as important (if not more) than actually taking the drug.  The reason is that if the plant hasn't been prepared with the "right" perception towards it, the experience won't be the same.  Again, if you're aren't terribly convinced by the animistic side of this, then you won't care.  But, for anyone considering using drugs for AP/OBE, unless you are apprentice to a shaman or have been invited to participate in the experience, then your experience may not be what you expect.  The actual experiences of shamans (and others who use these drugs ritually) has somehow filtered its way (along with mass produced batches of their "drugs") to the western world and our culture just isn't really structured to give the plant the attention it deserves.  It seems like a great way to circumvent the work needed to achieve OBEs but we usually only hear that people like shamans use these drugs to have OBEs, we rarely hear about the whole ritual.  To have the experience that people hear stories about, you have to participate in the whole ritual, from sowing and reaping, to making and taking.

[no_leaf_clover]

If you're astral, you've already altered your state of consciousness. What would the point be? To make is less vivid?

I'm not making the connection between all drugs and dulled senses.  Caffeine is a drug too.  Though it wouldn't help achieve OBE if you imagined yourself on caffeine it could energize you, for example.  There is no use discussing psychadelics and things like that unless you have personal experience but those definitely do not dull your senses either.  It's not like alcohol or cannabis.