Grief and Loss: The five stages

[Dark Knight]

Yeah, I can just see this post dropping like a rock to nothing...the site that doesn't acknowledge emotional work.

[Clow]

There has to be acceptions to people with these five steps. Mine goes like this.

1.Shock
2.Depression
3.Anger
4.Depression again
5.Acceptance

I think that the human can not be read so easily. Unless it wants to be.

[Dark_Phoenix]

well anyways these are my steps that i had passed through in 1995 when my great grandmother died.

1) denial
2) pain
3) guilt
4) depression
and,
5) acceptance.

[wantsumrice]

"Yeah, I can just see this post dropping like a rock to nothing...the site that doesn't acknowledge emotional work."

I don't really understand what you mean by this statement.  Someones own emotional distress is his/her own buisness.  I understand you might want to come to the forum and post your problems, but those are ones own problems for YOU to deal with.  I've been going through a lot lately and I don't feel the need to implement my feelings on others here, just out of courtesy.  

I think we all acknoledge that you have been through a lot too, but are you looking for some sort of new "Psychological Help" forum?

~ivan

[Dark Knight]

quote:Quoted by Wantsumrice
don't really understand what you mean by this statement. Someones own emotional distress is his/her own buisness. I understand you might want to come to the forum and post your problems, but those are ones own problems for YOU to deal with. I've been going through a lot lately and I don't feel the need to implement my feelings on others here, just out of courtesy.

All right, you've been gone too long,...recap#1.....

No, repeating once again, I am not talking about my experiences in those threads, and I am not asking for help, I got help and am doing fine now, thank you for your concern. [] My experiences are not what I am bringing up here.

You're absolutely right, implementing your feelings on others is rude...and that is exactly how people under attack have been treated and received coming here.

Why will it drop like a rock? Because the post above does what I have been saying is needed, you have to move through emotion and fear to get through a situation like this, and that is the one action people under psychic attack have been blocked on over and over in this forum,...because ANY recognition or experience of fear or anger is defined as a negative attitude. Then when people suffering attack are blocked and can't move through anything, they get the blame for not taking responsiblity for their lives and problems. The blockers need to take the blame and change their attitudes and perceptions towards others and themselves. How you treat others is a mirror reflection of your soul, your fear, your flaws,...you have the responsiblity to learn a lesson as well as people under psychic attack...and I don't see it happening. I see the blockers forcing their lessons on others instead of assuming the responsiblity themselves.

In all fairness, Nita, you'll have to change you post because I editted mine.

And I'll leave it at that...recap#2 has been conveniently relocated at the very end of this post, with corresponding links.

quote:http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.aspTOPIC_ID=10249&whichpage=4
All right then, we'll give it a try...problem is, Fuzzy, the blocks that happen here aren't singular quotes they are entire contexts. And that is how I am going to describe them.

People under attack have a hard time making life work and have to compromise a tremendous amount of themselves just to make it through the basics of life,...have to fight sometimes to get the energy to get up and in the morning. Then on top of all that, they have to endure the abuse of people wanting to force fit their experiences onto theirs. When you tell them their ideas aren't working, you're told no, you're just being irresponsible, or just being negative, why don't you put in any effort...as if making life work as best they can wasn't an effort. Your experiences are the end all, so it should work, and you deliberately put people who are under attack on the defensive to force it to be true. You forcibly challenge them to prove your wrong. The people suffering from psychic/supernatural attack are trying to cope with everyday life survival, they need serious help, not games...investing energy into something that does not work is just more energy depletion. It's called honoring and respecting the self (how that is negative I have no idea). People who are under attack are expected to prove why they should have their needs respected...how in the hell do you prove that, especially when the consequences are flat out rejected as happening in reality.

Well, forcing individuals to defend themselves on why they should have their experiences and needs respected works as intended...shuts up people suffering attacks real well...can't move through something or take responsibility without acknowledging it exists. No focus, energy stops flowing, blocks form. Since you can't defend yourself, you end up playing a game that doesn't work which causes you to lose more energy (and that is what I call being positive for the hell of being positive). That is what I call positive for the hell of being positive. Tends to tinkle you off after a while (That is the point, God gave us the power to become angry as a pain receptor to warn us when our value is being diminished...that isn't a negative thing).

When we do protest we get, "Why are you getting upset, it's just an opinion, just a theory." If it is just an opinion, just a theory, why are do you need to drive home the idea that individuals under attack aren't positive enough, are lazy, and irresponsible. You don't accept the idea that you can be overwhelmed, why? What's the motivation? You're more than willing to put forward the intent of giving the idea, but you don't want any of the consequences that go along with it (noticed that's a theme in a lot of these threads, lot's of mention of the initial intent, no follow through). You don't even acknowledge the consequences exist...you take all the benefits and none of the responsibility. Your ego does all the work and you take all the credit.

This kind of behavior takes its toll after time...Fuzzy, Sam, during the Christmas Holiday I exchanged emails with a former member of this site who was on the verge of suicide. She couldn't do it anymore, couldn't cope with the attacks and try to engage the forced defensiveness of the love and light loonies. That is the consequence this behavior creates. Hey when you convince people they have to prove they need their experiences respected, and that person can't, the logic becomes "I don't deserve respect." I showed her something, I won't say what. She wrote back saying that I had confirmed something she had been suspecting and it made her feel better. I gave the suggestion, she pulled herself up (she deserves the credit not me, I only validated something she had already thought of).

I keep hearing the "We got over abuse" line over and over. Yes, in answer to James' question, that was a positive thing, in it's OWN place and period. What is wrong is using it as the insertion point for every other experience their after. Like saying, "I gave to the poor so now I can rob a bank and use my previous experience as a cover and claim credit." You cannot use a past experience as a substitute for dealing with the present. The positive of overcoming abuse is no more a substitute than alcohol, drugs, food, or shopping. You deal with a situation in the present on it's own individual merits and yours. You not only drag it into the present you use it as a club to beat people to death with. Your "positive experience" is not more valuable than the person you are alledgedly trying to help, or the things you have to destroy inside that person to make it so.

And don't give me this crap about helping or having compassion for people...there is a big difference between the abusive situations you were in and the situation a person under psychic/supernatural attack is in. When you were being abused, it was your hide on the line if you didn't overcome it. You had to do everything required of you to get over it. But when people being attacked ask you for the same help and the same requirements are demanded, you give as much as you want to, and whine when more is asked of you. Who's hide are you thinking about? And do you really need a damn shrink to explain to you that people don't have to defend themselves to have their needs respected? Is that what it's come down to, we need shrinks to explain to us how to treat people? That is beyond pathetic.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10249&whichpage=8People under attack have been put on the defensive and given the responsiblity to prove and justify why their feelings need respect and understanding. This is a devastating thing to do to any human being under any kind of attack, physical, spiritual or otherwise. People don't have to give a reason to feel, they are human that is all they need. And feeling anger, fear, or sorrow is not negative, it is part of moving through the healing process. Everytime feelings are challenged and put on the defensive for unreasonable reasons the healing process comes to a dead stop. Then the person under attack is blamed for not getting over it, and it's not their fault. They're trying to take responsiblity by moving through it and identifying everything and their blocked every step of the way.

Kakkarot, this is more than not believing in what a person is going through...kakkarot, people under attack have been given advice and if it didn't work in their case, they were blamed for it not working. I recommend blessed ritual salt bathes, but even I don't have the ego to believe if it doesn't work in a particular person's case it's because they're negative or not trying. People under attack that I have been speaking to privately have been doing things that do not work or help their situations just to be "accepted by the group." Just so they don't feel alone...but in actuality it's the worst kind of loneliness there is...being surrounded by people and utterly alone. Others were too weak to pretend, they had already compromised too much, so they left, and they really needed help and support...God only knows what happened to them. If a person dies and no one hears the scream did he/she really die? You guys only heard me screaming so you thought I was only talking about myself (it's just past tense rhetoric, I am fine now, really, I'll just keep saying it)?!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10249&whichpage=9

Kakkarot, you get the things you have in life because of compromise. You may not feel the effects of the compromise because you live in a "world" where there is cooperation, respect, and compromise between people to lessen the load. The compromise made to get what you want isn't painful or is neglibly so. When a person gets no cooperation or respect, the only person they have to compromise with is themselves (self). You literally have to compromise whole parts of yourself to get what you need to survive. Do you understand what that means? It means you're in a situation where you can't walk away from anything because you have to do everything yourself. That kind of compromise is extremely painful, destructive of self, and frightening...and then they're being attacked on top of it. You don't get better slowly over time because what you're doing is essentially cannabalising yourself.

I didn't start getting seriously better until I got that help, cooperation, and compromise because I didn't have to compromise all of myself anymore to get what I needed. I could use that freer portion for other things, like enjoying life, enjoying people, seeing more of the positive.

Kakkarot, people forced in a position to compromise their self to survive (not even live, survive) can't see the positive because there is nothing positive about being forced to live that way. You walk around making affirmations and see that everything else around you has value except you,...so you continue to say the mantras all the fluffy bunny people want you say, all the while dying slowly and painfully inside...and there is total awareness every waking second of everything inside you which dies...you have to look at to compromise it. Everything a neg wants in a subject they get when people in pain are treated this way.

One year ago this month I was in the middle of the download. On Feb 13, 2003 I was fired from my job because the channeling was so severe I was muttering to myself, would stare out into space for long hours, and could not function or interact with others at all. I was taken into protective custody with my parents and watched as they and the family dog were channeled. I'd hear in my head, "We'll make sure they send you to the hospital, [Dark Knight], we'll make sure you never get out." I had no idea what the hell was happening to me. At one point I walked out to the nearby lake and looked at all the icebergs and thought I could walk out there and end it (and ending meant no life beyond the body or being ripped to shreads by whatever was one my case, anything to end it). I could've walked out there and no one would have found my body till the spring. I would've been ruled a suicide and no one would have known what had actually happened to me.

How many people has this happened to, and how many people really needing help came to this site on their last legs only to be driven away? This argument is petty but the suffering are not. This has to stop.

[Nita]

Hello Dark Knight
  Good comments. Everyone emotional work is part of overcoming anything in life. If you do not do emotional work then you are not living life but just repressing it.
   Nita

[Dark Knight]

You have to deal with fear and you have to deal with reality. You can't use a positive attitude to wish reality away so you don't have to move through the unpleasant aspects you don't want to touch.

[kiauma]

...because ANY recognition or experience of fear or anger is defined as a negative attitude.

Wrong.  And not just wrong, but absolutely wrong.

Just about EVERYONE here has accepted and recognized your experience - that is not and never was what all your whining has been about.  Let's look at WantSum's comment again,

quote:Someones own emotional distress is his/her own buisness. I understand you might want to come to the forum and post your problems, but those are ones own problems for YOU to deal with.

...and this goes back to your comment,

Why will it drop like a rock? Because the post above does what I have been saying is needed, you have to move through emotion and fear to get through a situation like this, and that is the one action people under psychic attack have been blocked on over and over in this forum,...because ANY recognition or experience of fear or anger is defined as a negative attitude. Then when people suffering attack are blocked and can't move through anything, they get the blame for not taking responsiblity for their lives and problems. The blockers need to take the blame and change their attitudes and perceptions towards others and themselves. How you treat others is a mirror reflection of your soul, your fear, your flaws,...you have the responsiblity to learn a lesson as well as people under psychic attack...and I don't see it happening. I see the blockers forcing their lessons on others instead of assuming the responsiblity themselves.

So please, once again, in YOUR accusations (how you treat others) show us the mirror of your soul, force your 'lessons' on us, do not take responsibility for yourself, tell us how your suffering was all our fault.  Tell us DK.

You are confused DK, confused over what is your right, what is your opinion, what is your perception.

Everyone here accepts your experience.  What we do not accept is the reflection of your pain you project onto others - all of your demands and accusations.  That is the truth of it, the truth that you can not bear to face.

That we do not accept responsibility for your pain, that wounds you deepest.  If we are responsible for your pain, then it must follow that you are responsible for ours - is that true?  No - because THAT we do not accept.  We know that the best defense is no need for a defense in the first place.  

If there is any lesson to be learned here, that is it.

[Dark Knight]

quote:Everyone here accepts your experience. What we do not accept is the reflection of your pain you project onto others - all of your demands and accusations. That is the truth of it, the truth that you can not bear to face.

That we do not accept responsibility for your pain, that wounds you deepest. If we are responsible for your pain, then it must follow that you are responsible for ours - is that true? No - because THAT we do not accept. We know that the best defense is no need for a defense in the first place.

Then I'll quote Nita:

quote:by Nita Hello Everyone
People always want to remove the fear they feel when hearing about psychic attacks. It seems that most people do it by attacking the ones with the problems. It is easy to do and they can feel that they are superior and it will never happen to them.
Balance is important in magic and defense along with blocking and techniques. I always advise people to never use attacks as they can be reversed and the victim can suffer even worse. That was a good quote by Robert, Dark Knight.
Nita http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10569

I'm sorry about that Nita and that is the last time I will use something you have written.

No one under attack can bear withstand total invalidatation because it chips away at everything that makes you human and a part of creation. The only way to refuse responsiblity for how your actions affect others is to cut yourself off completely from creation and deny other.

[findtruth]

So... The point here is that people need to be recognized that they are experiencing pain and fear when they are experiencing pain and fear and need help, or it takes away their humanity.

[kiauma]

No one under attack can bear withstand total invalidatation because it chips away at everything that makes you human and a part of creation. The only way to refuse responsiblity for how your actions affect others is to cut yourself off completely from creation and deny other.

I've been over this before, how if you are so fragile that something you read on a forum by people you have never even met can be so shattering, then you should LEAVE immediately, for your own safety!

Alternatively, here is something you could do, though it seems you have never thought of it.  You say you are so wounded because people say you have caused your own negativity?  I firmly believe you are the best judge of what is right for you - how about if you DO NOT TAKE THEIR ADVICE?  Novel concept, yes?

Because - and this is important - I guarentee you there are many, many people in this world who will not only hold you responsible for your experience but will also deny any reality to it!  What are you gonna do, go on a personal crusade to make sure every man, woman, and child in the world adopts your views?  Because by your reasoning, that is what you are going to have to do for your peace of mind.

You can't shoulder the responsibility for your self, so you think the world should do it for you.

And THAT is the bottom line DK, it is you against the world!  Perhaps that has been your 'weakness' the 'negs' have exploited all along, your ready acceptance of negativity.

Only babies think they are going to get what they want by tinkling and moaning, so do everyone including yourself a favor DK, grow up and quit yer bitchin'.

It's the only way we are going to responsibly co-create the world.

[Dark Knight]

quote:So... The point here is that people need to be recognized that they are experiencing pain and fear when they are experiencing pain and fear and need help, or it takes away their humanity.

A little more than that, Findtruth, it has to do with how you treat people and their needs. Recognizing is step one, not the finish line. What you do with the recognition is the next step. Like Maya Angelou used to say it's like little murders, first someone takes one small piece of yourself, then another, then another....it doesn't happen over night, it whittles away over time. People want to deal with their problems by running away and you can't run away forever. You run out of room and run out of safety.

Findtruth, people under attack need assistance so they can cope with their situations and actually be able to walk away from little stuff...walk away to think, feel, do something positive. Then over time as they can do more and more on their own, get stronger, cope with more complex situations, they can't fight the negs off themselves. But when you not only invalidate people, but thrust your expectations, your fear onto them, force them to cope with it plus the attacks, plus everyday responsibility...you isolate the person, they begin to cannabalise themselves to stay alive, and fall deeper in the grip of the imposing neg. You're not separate from people or creation, and your actions do have an impact on the world and others both positive and negative.

[kiauma]

...walk away to think, feel, do something positive.

Your expectation seems to be that you couldn't DK, because of what other people think - where does what you think enter into it, DK?

I'll tell you - you thrust your fear onto others, that they have power over you.  You isloate yourself - YOU choose what you are going to do, no one else.

Yes DK, I am impacting your experience - but only YOU can decide what you are going to do with my statements, wether you accept them as truth or not.  No one is holding a gun to your head that mine or anyone elses opinions define you, and they never have.

Only YOU are responsible for your self, who you are and what you do.

You can try to run away from your responsibility and ignore the truth, but everyone here has eyes DK.  Everyone here can see what you are doing.

[findtruth]

Dark Knight.  There is no need for you to lecture.  Did it ever occur to you that there is more in peoples' heads than what they type here?

[Dark Knight]

Thank you findtruth, sorry I didn't trust more []

[kiauma]

Actually, NO, it doesn't occur to her:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10576

I had asked her in another thread how she validates or recognizes those with different views from her own.  I asked for an example.

Her answer, as you can see in the above thread, is that she doesn't.   That is EXACTLY the one-sidedness she is hypocritically alluding to not having in her reply above.

To overcome a conflicting agenda, the valuable qualities must be placed in an order of priority.

Guess who she gives the highest priority here? - That's right, herself.

That is amazing, considering this is the internet, and by the very nature of the medium she can't know squat about whoever she is talking to!  Even where the difficulties and challenges of others are voiced she merely brushes them aside.   Mayatnik is blind, but she still insists her suffering is worse.   Nay told of a very painful childhood incident, but was also rebuffed.   Bear in mind that these are not subjective psychic attacks, these are REAL PHYSICAL OCCURANCES AND MALADIES, but DK still says that her problems and 'pain' is far worse than anything they could have endured.

By now it should be clear that she not only assumes her problems are bigger than everybody elses - she insists!  She has had only disparaging words for myself since my very first post, but she doesn't know me at all.  For all she knows I may be typing this on a library computer because I do not have a computer.  For all she knows, I may not have a computer because I do not have a job or even a home.  For all she knows I may post the way I do because I am grumpy from the voices, and the hunger, and being awakened all night by the rats running over me in the abandoned building where I found shelter, and right now I have empty chairs on either side of me because I stink so bad of fecal matter and sour clothing.

For all she knows, I may enjoy none of the comforts or joys that she does enjoy every day, and maybe not - she wasted no time in finding out - she just assumed that her problems were worse.

I have to wonder, is this because she NEEDS to be seen as the worst off - the one most in need of sympathy?  Hey, I could be wrong here - but you do the math.

To top all that off, she has the gall to wield Mother Theresa's "How dare you be so comfortable at the expense of others!" like some kind of justification for her self-serving assumptions and hypocrisy.  

Hey, if everyone wants to encourage this kind of emotional blackmail, I suppose you can all make up your own minds, but I am having none of it.  DK is a big girl, she doesn't need me to abdicate my beliefs so she can feel good about herself - well, that's what I think, anyway.   If she wants comfort, fine.  If she wants love, fine.  If she wants acceptance, reassurance, support, fine.   But if she wants me to be responsible for her problems - [B)]

Think again, DK.

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Dark Knight
You're absolutely right, implementing your feelings on others is rude...and that is exactly how people under attack have been treated and received coming here.

Why will it drop like a rock? Because the post above does what I have been saying is needed, you have to move through emotion and fear to get through a situation like this, and that is the one action people under psychic attack have been blocked on over and over in this forum,...because ANY recognition or experience of fear or anger is defined as a negative attitude. Then when people suffering attack are blocked and can't move through anything, they get the blame for not taking responsiblity for their lives and problems. The blockers need to take the blame and change their attitudes and perceptions towards others and themselves. How you treat others is a mirror reflection of your soul, your fear, your flaws,...you have the responsiblity to learn a lesson as well as people under psychic attack...and I don't see it happening. I see the blockers forcing their lessons on others instead of assuming the responsiblity themselves.

Ok, Dark Knight, I really think this whole point you're trying to push has not only been well and truly beaten to death, it's now in advanced stages of decomposition and long overdue for burial.

I'm sorry, but Kiauma is correct - we have accepted your problems AND offered help, but you seemed to want to turn your nose up at the advice.

Just to bring things into perspective for those who have not been on this site long, and to support what I just said, please spend a few minutes looking over this topic which is in fact Dark Knight's first post on this forum:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6730&whichpage=1

For all those who DID offer you support, and WERE willing to listen you ended up with this little gem of a post:

quote:Hatemongers...

You will choose a lesson and get a high off of the power you recieve, instead of getting a high off of people. You stay outside of creation and act as if you're not a part of it, then claim you are. Don't worry, I'm leaving, thank you.

You aren't going to be able to walk away from this forever. I'm going to drag the spotlight on this mentality. Challenging something doesn't make a person a victim, and guess what, challenging you and not taking the spot light off of you doesn't take your choices away. You still have them, you still have free will, there are still consequences, and you are still responsible for them.

Needing support occasionally isn't being a victim, it's being human.

You think you're defensive now...

So Dark knight, you didn't leave. It seems you decided to stay, but for what reason? So you could teach us all the lesson YOU believed we had to be taught?

You were offered help and support when you came to this site, you were NOT blocked and your problems were NOT denied.

I'm sorry if this has gone somewhat off topic, but I think its long past time that you put your tired old arguments and accusations to rest. This is not a polite request - I am now telling you Dark Knight - do not continue this line of accusations and lecturing against the other members of this forum. They are well within their rights to speak their opinions and ideas, just as you are well within your rights, as I believe Kiauma has already appropriately pointed out, to either ignore the suggestions made that you don't like, or leave this site.

James.

[SpectralDragon]

I have lost all respect for a lot of the members of this board.

Nobody is listening, NOBODY. And nobody is willing to say "I Might be wrong" This must stop.

What happened to the atmosphere this board had?

[wantsumrice]

Why would we care whether or not you give respect or not?  It's just the internet.  We hardly know each other, except through words and letters on the screen.  

We are addressing a topic that has been discussed over and over and over and over again.  So much futile energy has been put into it that it should be stopped.  Why would we be willing to say "I might be wrong!"?  There isn't anything to be wrong about, because we aren't basing any argument on fact, but common sense.  

And i fully agree with Kiamu, thank you SO much for stating that so extremely well, it's been on my mind for ages.

~ivan

[SpectralDragon]

quote:Originally posted by wantsumrice

Why would we care whether or not you give respect or not?  It's just the internet.  We hardly know each other, except through words and letters on the screen.  

We are addressing a topic that has been discussed over and over and over and over again.  So much futile energy has been put into it that it should be stopped.  Why would we be willing to say "I might be wrong!"?  There isn't anything to be wrong about, because we aren't basing any argument on fact, but common sense.  

And i fully agree with Kiamu, thank you SO much for stating that so extremely well, it's been on my mind for ages.

~ivan

The reason I say that is is this has gone on for too long. this forum is for asking for help, and you have people telling these people that everything is in thier minds, no matter what some of the moderators will tell you. I am going to find a good amount of these and put links to them here in a minute.

I say if we argue, fine, if we debate, fine, but let's at least show some courtesy to each other, and James you are as much guilty as DK is. So am I. If she goes, you should go, and I should go too. I will get the links and show you how ALL of us have been doing this.

Kiauma, you keep rampling on about how a much of a hypocrit people who argue with you are, look at yourself. I have seen much hypocricy from ALL SIDES. I am also going to find the links to these as well.

This forum is still not nearly as bad as I have seen others fall to, but it's getting there.

[kiauma]

Nobody is listening, NOBODY. And nobody is willing to say "I Might be wrong" This must stop.

What happened to the atmosphere this board had?

You tell me SD, you tell me.

Here's one of my fave quotes:

I do NOT blame you for everything, it's all YOUR fault!

[wantsumrice]

Alright, alright, this whole deal is just miscommunication and lots of self contradiction.  Shall we just drop it?

Kiamu, it is just her ego getting in the way, many time's I am sure that you may have tried to boast about something that may not have been exactly positive...right?  If not, then more power to you, but I believe she understands now that it may have been a mistake.  

~ivan

[findtruth]

This board started out slightly negative, and now it's escalated.[]

The mean word hurt they does[V]They hurtses everybody

[SpectralDragon]

quote:Originally posted by kiauma

Nobody is listening, NOBODY. And nobody is willing to say "I Might be wrong" This must stop.

What happened to the atmosphere this board had?

You tell me SD, you tell me.

Here's one of my fave quotes:

I do NOT blame you for everything, it's all YOUR fault!

Yes, Kiauma, This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

And if by that quote you mean I am saying I am not at fault, well guess what, I AM and I already admitted it. Is it your turn yet?

And if that's not what you mean by that quote....Well I already pointed out people need to be more clear with what they are portraying.

[findtruth]

Why do I continue to return here?
Okay, so we're all at fault, including me.  If this forum still has a purpose, let's get back to it.  If it doesn't, why not forget it?