Psychological/Psychiatris Interpretations

[Ides315]

Hey jo.

I agree with most of your points. It is all great except for the comments about what will work in what society. The shamanistic methods will work in all societies as long as it is a true entity that is the root of the problem. It would not matter if the person believed or even knew about what was going on. If the problem had no entity at its core, then modern psychology, or the shamanistic methods would both work as long as the person firmly believed in what was being used.

From my (limited) perspective, modern psychology is a longwinded version of core image removal. Applied mental drugs are great for both methods. It breaks (part of) the control a neg has over the subject, and/or helps in removing the obsession to the negative image that the person holdsin their mind.

I did not see anybody that was trying to be "self important" in the comments. The people involved had been through and worked with people dealing with these issues, or were unable to see the whole picture.

I think the best hope for everyone is a hybred of the 2 approaches. Both systems have things that could strengthen the other.

Have you ever "seen" a neg?

[jo]

Ides,  I apologise for my own sweeping statements about people sounding 'self important'. I guess that is exactly how I came across. It is no excuse I know, but I'd just spent a sleepless 24 hours with a loved one who was experiencing the worst torture imaginable through lack of a particular drug that creates a chemical balance. The incredible re-balancing within the brain that the drug provides  is the only thing that offers any semblance of relief for the sufferer. I was, at the time of posting, exhausted and stressed, and  became easily irritated at some statements that were made on the subject. Again,  I am  sorry.
  To answer your question, yes, I have seen negs. I have had some hair-raising encounters, particularly when I was heavily into studying Magick years ago, with an offshoot of the Golden Dawn Society in Sydney . But I have also encountered them during exorcisms. ..one in particular being horrific...when a Belgian diplomat residing in Sydney had attended some voodoo ceremonies in Haiti and brought back a few unwelcome 'visitors'.
Also, back on the subject of mixing shaman practices with western ways, I was  stuck  in a car once, whilst travelling thru the Arizona desert at night with a fellow Australian and a Native American elder and his wife, when an owl flew in front of  the windscreen. This was a sign to our hosts that there was the possibilty of something bad lying ahead in our travels. The only incentive  to keep going...we were heading for the Navahoe reservation hospital ...lay inside  a leather pouch kept in the glove box for such emergencies. It contained cornmeal, which was believed to ward off evil spirits and we all had to ingest a tiny bit of this cornmeal before continuing our journey. I totally honoured their beliefs and readily partook of the ritual inside the car, even tho my own personal belief system didn't support the fact that cornmeal could keep us safe. We arrived at the hospital without further ado and I will never know whether we'd have done so, had we not ingested  the cornmeal.  I guess you could say that it was a case of shamanistic practice working successfully for 2 westerners as well as for the elders. So  I apologise too, for not thinking through my own statement that sometimes shamanistic practice doesn't  work for westerners and vice versa. You're right, Ides. Thanks. Jo.

jo

[Ides315]

Hey, jo.

We have family members that have chemical imbalances also. I was not trying to imply that all "mental" issues are neg related, just as you were not trying to say everything could be cured by drugs.

The defensive measures you mentioned, well hard to say. A person can create their own defense system based on something that is truly "inert", as long as it convinces their inner self to get the job done. I know almost nothing about Native American magick, so cannot comment about a particular item, and its effectiveness.

I was thinking more along the lines of neg attachment removal, and I think that is where the direction of the aforementioned thread was, also. I spoke with 3 "modern" healthcare professionals, who could find nothing wrong, but what I described and was going through was unacceptable to the "accepted" model they diagnosed on. I was labled as a psychosis, and was given prescriptions for strong drugs.

When approached from the "occult" perspective, the problems where overcome, and I am a much better person for it.

And I also apologize for being quick to "take the bait". Because of my path, and the impact "modern" diagnosis had on me, I am a little testy about it.

Do follow up on the links to Howards site, good combo of both techniques.

Take care.

[MJ-12]

fe

[Ides315]

Hey, all.

It would be interesting to know how much possesion issue's cause specific reactions in people. Say a certain type of chemical imbalance, disease, or degeneration of the physical body. Robert has commented about some of this in PPSD, incubi visits having long term detrimental effects on people. One of the things I found that caught the attention of a psychologist friend was the issue of "mental" medications that the effects of wore off after a certain amount of time, and where no longer effective. I would place money on the fact that a large percentage of these are a stronger neg that has learned to work with the "new" brain mechanics brought about by the drug.

There are quite a few people that this happens to.

Just questions to ponder.

[Nita]

Hello Jo
  I have a husband who has frontal lobe epilepsy from 1/2 of his frontal lobe on his right side being missing along with one eye. He takes drugs to replace the lost chemicals and keep him in balance. I know what he acted like before. I believe that people assuming  that psychiatry is the only answer for people is wrong. It is not ignorance but with all these magical pills we are seeing a upswing in violence and everyone with nerves on Prozac in the US.
  I agree that I don't care for the quick fix mentality but those sorts of people are the same ones that expect a magic wand waved and everything in their lives corrected when magical healing is used.
  The important thing is what you need to work upon yourself. Giving psychological advice is also improper. I do what I do well. I know that everyone I have helped has thought about psychological issues and been to see a doctor about it. It didn't help. Combined methods have promise but it is still basicall core image removal. Psychicatry came from shamanistic and magical counseling just like modern day chemistry came from Alchemy.
  Nita

[Kristen]

Hi All -

From my experience with psychotropic drugs they can be a godsend if used correctly.  They make it possible for a percentage of schizophrenics to participate in society... they can make it possible for clinically depressed people to function at work and home, and they can alleviate the severest elements of ADHD behavior....

They are never to be used as a sole antidote, however, in people who are already capable of functioning (mothers with mild post partum depression, people affected by seasonal affective disorder, and so on)  they may be all that is needed, and in the short term for that matter.

The psychiatric profession is about helping people function in their private and public lives in the concrete world.  The best counselors for those who also activily pursue lives in realms beyond the concrete world are another matter... however - the concrete is part of the whole thing.... as above so below...  its sort of a hierarchy of needs idea - if you have food, water, housing, love - then that is a good starting point.

2 cents

[jo]

I feel  it is essential to be well -versed in psychological and psychiatric effects of chemical re-balancing before making sweeping statements about shamanistic solutions and the 'putting down' of modern drugs.. The shaman way was born within shaman cultures/communities. It doesn't always work in modern day western society...unfortunately....just as modern western methods wouldn't work in a shamanastic tribal environment.
  Sweeping, self-important statements do not help anyone. It only betrays IGNORANCE  and a need to feel 'important'.
If you pooh-pooh modern drugs, please do some research on how the (either) mentally ill ...or shaman geniuses... were treated in the early 1900s and before. ......  (Shackled in irons in underground dungeons was NOT an answer !!!)
If you haven't walked in the moccasins of another, please don't make sweeping judgements.( It  is dangerous for vulnerable souls who may read and believe  them.)
 I believe that the purpose of coming into this life on earth is to create a balance between the pysical and the spiritual.    We are not a body with a spirit. We are a spirit/soul  with a body...here to create balance, learn and evolve. ...and address the Karma of cause  and effect.
 But of course i could be very wrong. I honestly don't know.  jo


jo