doesnt Karma make everyone innocent..???

[Rodentmouse7]

I mean how can a man be guilty of murder?  wouldnt he who got murdered be paying back karma? so the man who actually killed him was carrying out the karmic rebalance?

Another example, if i hit someone, then karma is saying i should experience the same feelings as the person who i hit at some point in future... so when that time does come, and someone hits me- then the man who hit me is like a tool, carrying out the karmic judgement.

[Principle]

I think you should look into and read more about Karma, It is not eye-for-an-eye like everyone believes, it works differently.

[quester]

Exactly what is karma is what you're asking and most of us talk around it and your question is right on! Regarding the murderer is the passive idea of fault, not experience. In a way it does say what you ask, especially if we think of karma as lessons but karma is more, it is an unfolding process.

Until we learn karma is not (or may not be) some individual fruition of moral causation we won't understand the relation of karma or depth of it. There are 3 points to be made regarding the murderer example, one is the person themselves (the murderer), person(s) who contribute or help shape in some way to this effect, and lastly responsibility. To answer the question of karma responsibility is least important. We like to think karma equivalent to soul as meeting reward and punishment, but karma is really neutral. Karma concern is outcome. Think of it this way, not even GOD will stop the most heinous act from happening, karma is the same way, and so there must be a reason. We commonly think Karma is thought to be based on conscious act of intent with reward or punishment, but this is not consistent with reincarnation or even enlightenment. To understand karma, and the murderer, we must move away from our concept of reward and punishment based on good and evil.

One of the most interesting ideas (in Buddhist thought) is elimination of blame (as part of this unfolding process). In the murderer example is the idea the abused person commits murder but in the big picture a series of event lead to it's culmination (murder). Karma also says the abuser who (helped) shaped the murder hold as much blame for the event (of course blame is not a meaningful word). This is how karma works everything is integrated. Most westerns don't accept this and lay entire blame of act. Westerns see virtually everything purely situational. It's hard to grasp karma neither punishes or rewards. Karma tells us events are casual, so really has no fault or blame. That things and events are in constant flux and nothing can stop karma (outcome).  This is the difference between seeing with a trained and untrained mind, committing and not committing, acting and not acting through an aware mind.

We manifests through a series of events. Such event could be one that happened today, yesterday, last month or a thousand years ago. When we learn to know self we learn to think outside the box to realize outcome can be changed. But the problem is seeing change means when it happens we won't know or recognize because it never happened. This is the dilemma of change and what's behind conscious thought. Change any event changes all.

Regarding the murderer, it did not have to happen. This is the beauty and awareness of karma lacking in traditional religion. We only talk about the person who acts but not others who contribute to it that hold responsibility, so the concept of murderer is greatly expanded. I know you don't see this but I am as much saying there is murder because each of (can) contribute to it.  Karma simply tells or maybe shows us it is normal for "our" minds to be and operate in an unfocused state. This we don't like to admit about ourselves, that many of us can murder under the right circumstances, so it is not about the murderer. What is important is consciously learning to see through our emotion and attachments. Most of us don't know ourselves, we hide from self, are afraid and don't actively think in conscious ways but merely drifting along (which a murderer does) until we are led by events. We don't ask how do we see our emotional selves in fear, anger, hate, and so on. We are brought up to deny and therefore by default express negative energy with thoughts we try to repress that transform themselves manifesting in unconscious uncontrolled focus that bring out our hidden our nature. I am not all surprised we murder as billions of people believe for example (in original sin) they are bad or otherwise evil. We're brought up to believing we are and each of us are molded from birth to be told why bother even trying actually shaping our unconscious attitudes. This is the worse karma I can think of.

[zareste]

Here's how it works:  If the person gets away with killing, then similar killings will take place in a wider and wider area.  It's a pattern.  But you have to consider, was the killing justified?  Say, he killed someone for raping his daughter.  If you let it go, or congratulate him, more people will kill rapists and the pattern will flower out.

But the same goes in reverse.  Say he killed someone for being a minority, and you let it go, you'll see more and more minority deaths until the killers are done away with.  If you still do nothing, or if you believe it's not your problem, the killers will overwhelm society and become so numerous they're seen as everyday people, and you're screwed.  "Hey Jim, I just shot an immigrant!  Check it out!"  It happens all the time.

Everyone is a pattern taking place in the universe, and you decide which patterns will continue

[quester]

I'm sure traditionalist won't agree with you and say this is not karma, but I like your reflection seeing karma not only as a larger picture (which it is) but connects to other's karmas that moves away from the individual level to awareness that simply says we each contribute to the universe and what we do in it is important and has effect in unexpected and unseen ways (as well as seen).  I have to say, to me, what you've said zareste is more important then (any concept of) karma we argue.       

[badgerbug89]

I think a lot of westerners see karma the way they show it in things like the TV show "My Name is Earl" which is why i never like the idea of karma b/c if u get put into a life as a form of punishment then u might not be getting put into the life that will teach u the most and let u grow spiritually. It makes much more sense to think of it the way quester described it, as neutral. I think that's awesome and I had never heard that before, but then again I never really read much on it.

[MW]

This is what I understand, and I'm no expert.

The killer and the victim met because of their actions to date and that led them to cross paths. How they deal with the situation is not predetermined, and how they react/interact will affect their futures accordingly

Also, isnt there a saying something like, "Karma frees a wise man and binds a fool"?

[Mez]

"Karma frees a wise man and blinds a fool"

HOW VERY TRUE!!! wow thats such a beautiful expression.

The universe is not just random and chaotic it operates on a few simple, universal and unchangeable mechanisms. Karma is one of them... its not DESIGNED to punish or reward (although in essence thats what it does) it was designed as a neutral and very fair mechanism for action and equal reaction. Karma IS neutral but it DOES punish and reward. It works in conjunction with the law of attraction and also reincarnation. There is no such thing as blame, there is no such thing as a victim and there is no need to pity or feel sorry for anyone who got raped or murdered just as there is no need to be jealous of someone who won the lotto or a new car. Although these are punishments and rewards the nuetrality comes from accepting the responisibility for your own actions and all actions done unto you for once you do the "unfairness" of Karma dissolves entirely.

[sk8chik]

"Karma frees a wise man and blinds a fool"

I agree that's a very nice quote 

there is no such thing as a victim and there is no need to pity or feel sorry for anyone who got raped or murdered just as there is no need to be jealous of someone who won the lotto or a new car.

Yes everything in the universe is operating justly and for the greater good of not only the universe in total but the individuals themselves... but its OK to have feelings about it!

[Novice]

Another thing to consider in the karma debate is that an individual who has understood a part of his karma, may be put in that situation again not for their own personal benefit, but rather as an example for others. Haven't you ever seen someone in a terrible situation and they do something that absolutely moves you because it is completely opposite of what most people would do? They 'take the higher road' as they say, even though society would have completely justified a more retaliatory response.

My understanding is that karma is not reward/punishment. It is about lessons learned. You will find that you repeatedly face the same situation over and over again until you change your reaction to the situation. Once you do that, you find these situations fade from your life.

I'm not sure I believe in karma as it is currently understood, but I do believe in the general concept of it.

[MW]

Another thing to consider in the karma debate is that an individual who has understood a part of his karma, may be put in that situation again not for their own personal benefit, but rather as an example for others. Haven't you ever seen someone in a terrible situation and they do something that absolutely moves you because it is completely opposite of what most people would do? They 'take the higher road' as they say, even though society would have completely justified a more retaliatory response.

My understanding is that karma is not reward/punishment. It is about lessons learned. You will find that you repeatedly face the same situation over and over again until you change your reaction to the situation. Once you do that, you find these situations fade from your life.

I'm not sure I believe in karma as it is currently understood, but I do believe in the general concept of it.

A friend of mine commited suicide a few months ago, he jumped off a cliff.  At the funeral his dad was smiling. He'd been to the cliff top a few days before and said his goodbyes, made his peace. He didnt even wear a suit to the funeral. He was happy to meet the friends (us) who had brought happiness into his life and treated us to a meal afterwards. He even suggested we visit the area with his walking group as we shouldnt deny the beauty of that area just because of the tragic event.   

Such strength of character just blew me away, especially on such a sad day

[Novice]

That's a poignant story MW. I hope you've come to a similar peace with your loss. If you have, there are ways to visit your friend, if you are interested in phasing. If you haven't yet fully dealt with it, then wait before attempting contact. My experience has been that such grief prevents you from contacting the individual. Although, that could be different for everyone.

[MW]

Actually, one of my first thoughts on hearing of his passing was that it is possible to go and visit him, and this made everything a lot easier to deal with. Because of all my astral/spiritual interests I now find it quite easy to deal with death now.  I've been meaning to visit him for a while now but I've been a bit slack with things. Thank you for your post though

[morning_star]

To break it down to a simpler form, Karma is the slap on the wrist when you do something bad in this child-like human form on earth.  It's a lesson that keeps repeating itself until we get it right. Once you get it right and learn the lesson, you continue on to the next lesson.  When you're done with that, you no longer need to be on earth. The END.

[astraluminated]

Karma is the energetic fruits from your actions and thinking that get stored deep within your chakras and cause certain unfavourable tendencies in our being or auspicious tendencies but usually unauspicious tendencies. Say a person had in his life hundred traumas then when these traumas are not fully worked out, they get stored in our chakras as karmic layers. And these karmic layers add over the the many lives, but luckely such stored karmas in their proper time manifested again to be removed and dealt with. They might manifest as happenings in your live that gives you a apportunity to learn the lessons that you could not managed to learn when the trauma happened. Cerain happenings might be favourable and others might be hard. I experience myself that this process ends with Kundalini awakening, Because Kundalini removes the karmas faster than you can accumilate. But it is not the Kundalini awakening processes that everybody is so afraid of. This the more female approach a spontanious approach. This can happen in Sahaja Yoga. I have benifitted greatly from this. I am not trying to advertise here. But i think this yoga can be helpfull for many people. and you don't get all the weird sideeffects, i mean you can experience really nice things and all that. But it is not such a sensational thing and you won't get an ego-trip out of it. It is subtle and spontanious

[Awakened_Mind]

I've read there is Karma over all our lives, and Dharma as what happens in a single individual life. Can anyone elaborate?

-AM

[passenger1980]

In my opinion, the law of Karma is actually good in itself. If there was no Karma, we wouldn't learn and evolve as the concious energy we are. Karma is actually the perfect remedy for all of us, so i would say it's more of a blessing than a punishment.

[Awakened_Mind]

"Karma means action. It's not related to cause and effect. When we say that what's happening to you is your karma, we simply mean it's your own doing." Alan Watts

-AM

[LittleJoe]

Can you tell me what you think about the quote?

Say I always put myself first and am never ready to make a sacrifice for my friends, whilst still expecting them to do this for me. Eventually I have no friends left once they find out what I'm doing. Alan Watts is standing next to me and says 'It's your karma'.

By this he means it was my own doing. And it was indeed, because it was me who neglected my friends when they needed me. However, how can he say it's not related to cause and effect? Me neglecting them was the cause of my friends leaving me (the effect).

Personally I don't believe that things always come back at you, at some point. Same with the Wiccan three fold law, if you really believe you need to be punished for what you did, you most likely will be. That way they make this law true for themselves, but this does not mean it a universal law. Personally I can't i've been affected by it much

I don't think of karma the same way, as I always believed it was very much related to cause and effect. Really learning to understand cause and effect can help you in many ways, as it helps you more successfully plan out your actions and enhances your ability to look ahead.

I always thought this to be the underlying symbolism in karma. Your thoughts?

[Awakened_Mind]

Well personally I believe it to be related to to cause and effect, I was really pointing out the information that 'karma means action'. I think what Alan Watts meant was Karma is not cause and effect, karma is action.

-AM