That's actually a wicked good question! Yes, there, in a sense are two different paths to enlightenment. One, ridding yourself of ego, and the second, living in the ego. You must consider though, that enlightenment is just another life lesson you chose yourself to experience. One life you may have chosen the ego'less path, and another, you may have had a huge ego. Either way, both are towards enlightenment, and both teach you lessons.
One cannot actually rid onesself of his ego. I see the ego as something always with you, your identity, without it, you don't exist. However hard you try to pry it off, it's like glue, always there with you.
Hopefully this gives you some ideas.
~ivan
hello makoto!
good question. i think there is a big difference between losing the ego and fighting the ego. only understanding of the I makes it smaller, fighting builds up tension. in the beginning the I is very much needed for development i believe. someone said the ego is like a boat- you dont need it when youre on the other side.
does the river need boats? it pretty much doesnt care about boats.
so my answer is, the more understanding of the I, the smaller the I becomes, and the greater the sympaty for other people with problems. because its quite often the same kind of problems we have... sadness, hate, desires and so on.
i dont believe there is a way to live an egoistic life and reach the final goal, but we can surely reach other goals that the ego find interesting, AP, TK, PK etc, but not understanding the ego.
bye! /jonas
quote:
One cannot actually rid onesself of his ego. I see the ego as something always with you, your identity
That comes very close to the way I've approached the apparent problem of ego.
Ego is a useful tool, like fire or a hammer. It helps you to gain a concrete individual point of view and to communicate ideas of your perceptual existence to others. (by using the terms I, me, you, them and viewing your existence as separate).
But it's
ONLY a tool. You don't let fire take control and the hammer certaintly doesn't swing the blacksmith.
Unfortunately that's exactly what ego has become, the usurper and runaway fire.
The concept of ego annihilation refers, imho, to the process of tearing down the ego gone wild and out of control and then replacing it with one that is in its place and fulfills the function without getting in the way of our continued development.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Very good question indeed, and I think there is something to what you are saying.
The ego is the demanding, seperating identity of a person. The irony is that the more a person desires to be rid of the ego, the more an expression of the ego it becomes! Indeed, the desire for perfect egolessness is the ultimate expression of the ego.
Personally, I think the ego is a necessary part of our animal survival. You will notice in all the legends that when a person is finally able to lose the ego, they quickly ascend to nirvana. The reason for this is obvious, they have lost touch with their animal survival, and unless taken care of by others or through the resumption of some ego process, will quickly perish.
Certainly, the path to enlightenment is available through the ego, but only if one sees it for what it is - only then are you no longer in it's power. Of course this might also be described as the way of balance. I agree completely with Jilola, who stated this very well.
quote:
You will notice in all the legends that when a person is finally able to lose the ego, they quickly ascend to nirvana. The reason for this is obvious, they have lost touch with their animal survival, and unless taken care of by others or through the resumption of some ego process, will quickly perish.
That's because they have only done half of the task. They have ripped out the out of control ego and left a void. There needs to be an ego but it should be the servant of a person not the master.
For most of us ego is the master and completely out of control. That's why we are constantly sufferring from the perceived threats to the ego, having it dented, hoard more and more things etc.
Ego(I, me) is one of many focii that we can use to experience and create our reality. Other focii are for example You, We, They.
They all are tools and none is intrisically better or worse than any other when when they remain tools. Once they get out of control the wider and more inclusive focus tends to be more beneficial than the restrictive I (to give an example.)
Once ego is completely eradicated the focus tends to move away from individual perceptual reality and one ends up in the state Kiauma described. That state in itself is quite fine but it's not the only desireable state, nor is it in some way better or worse than any other.
Use the tools to build the chair(yourself and your reality) not yourself to build the tools.
2cents & L&L
jouni
quote:
The concept of ego annihilation refers, imho, to the process of tearing down the ego gone wild and out of control and then replacing it with one that is in its place and fulfills the function without getting in the way of our continued development
I agree that it would be more of a replacement then an actual destruction.
But how can ego be a tool if ego is me. Our concept of ourselves is(at least to us) us, no?
quote:
But how can ego be a tool if ego is me.
That's the thing. You are not your ego. Your ego is just a reflection of you.
2cents & L&L
jouni
quote:
But how can ego be a tool if ego is me.
Ego is
your concept of yourself as a seperate entity.
As Jilola says, it should serve you, not you serve it.
quote:
That's the thing. You are not your ego. Your ego is just a reflection of you.
But if it is your reflection then it changes with you not around you.
quote:
Ego is your concept of yourself as a seperate entity.
I like this definition ,however same idea. You create your ego based around urself but when the ego is in place it will affect you as you strive to become more and more like it
but whatever shape it takes it is still you. Ego can't have a mind of its own because it is ur mind and if it is merely a tool then once again it cannot shape you of it own violition either way its you changing yourself because the ego is whatever you demand it to be so it changing you is only you changing you.
When you examine your ego ask yourself where did it some from.
Is it from your own self or a reflection of the outside world, other people and their expectaitons, judgements and beliefs of what you should be?
Be brutal, but above all be honest. What is "I" and what is "Ego" and how much of each is something other than "you"
It sounds like a play in words and just playing silly buggers but the firts hurdle to self realization and everything that comes after that is making sure you understand who you are as opposed to who you hve been taught to believe you are.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Yes, ego is you, however it is another aspect of you, just as your spiritual you is also an aspect of you. Ego is a self-created aspect that is fear based. The spiritual you I consider the nmore authentic aspect, because it is more at the root of who I am and because I was born with spirit. The spirit you is based on love and oneness.
Looked at in this way, it becomes obvious why there is so much tension between the ego and the spirit, and why it is so important to understand the proper place of each.
Or look at it from an evolutionary point of view. One celled organisms didn't have ego's, the ego came to life when the brains of animals developed more and more. It is nothing more than a tool that let's us survive. Intelligence was the way to survive in the survival of the fittest, so intelligence was the way evolution had to go.
The problem is that our tool became so sophisticated that it tricked us in letting us believe that we are that tool and that we are different from the life (plants, animals) we see around us when in fact we aren't different at all. We (humans, animals, plants) all ARE, and that is our essence, we ARE.
The main issue here is "What is the ultimate goal" Some believe that goal to be Nirvana or Moksha, however I'm not so sure of that. If the goal is to "Merge with the universe" then I believe that the ego is what separates us from that state. We are all inherently made of the same stuff, the divine spark. And our path through each incarnation evolves our awareness towards that final goal. However when we start out as an individual point of awareness our mind is ruled by instinct, and as the spirit evolves, through experience it slowly sloughs off the instinctual state of mind and moves into a state more governed by the intellect. And through this process of experience we eventually move into the state governed by intuition. And of course, this that is slowly being refined is our true self relying less and less upon the ego and merging more and more with our true original state, the source, the divine spark, until we reach that ultimate goal. Total balance with the universe. I like to think of it in terms of this example: The Universe is pure, clean water, and we each are a point of awareness, a drop of oil. And through the evolution of the spirit, directed by our superconscious mind, we slowly rid ourselves of the oil and become more pure, more like that from which we came, until finally we are totally balanced and realize the truth, that we are a drop of water in the ocean of the universe, and become that which we already are. And more specific to your question, I believe that the oil is our ego or identity, that which must be gotten rid of in order to realize self.
And I know that you probably like your sense of self and your identity and don't want to let it go, however, when you reach that point you will realize and fully understand that all of that stuff that makes up your self image is only a shell.
I could probably keep going on this topic for a while, but to keep it short (or at least not so long) I will attempt to come to a point.
Could the way of the ego be a different path? This is something I have thought about myself. I personally believe that anything is possible. And this could be a path to follow, however I'm not quite sure where it would lead. I don't think it would lead towards merger with the universe. To conclude this lengthy dissertation I just want to say that I believe what I have said to be truth, however that does not make it truth. Each individuals path is just that, the path of the individual, one that you must take on your own. Good luck on your path. I do however have a lot more to say on the topic of enlightenment. If interested let me know. Thanks
I believe ego can be a path, it is the only path, and there is no way to get rid of the ego without also losing individuality. When that happens you get taken in the whole, merge whit the universe. I also believe that ego is no tool of you, but a tool of the universe, making it possible for individuality and freedom of choice to exist. So as I see it, it is all a learning and experiencing process in which the ego/individuality role diminish when you spiritually grow.
A question: If you think you can be the master of your ego, then who is this "you" that the ego answers to?
Akensaiquote:
A question: If you think you can be the master of your ego, then who is this "you" that the ego answers to?
The real "me". Ego is the concept of "I" we
learn and are imprinted with during our childhood.
2cents & L&L
jouni
quote:
Originally posted by jilola
Akensai
quote:
A question: If you think you can be the master of your ego, then who is this "you" that the ego answers to?
The real "me". Ego is the concept of "I" we learn and are imprinted with during our childhood.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Who is the real you?
Akensai:quote:
Who is the real you?
Trick question. I have no verbal reply that would be adequate.
Perhaps a leaf blown around by a wind. Perhaps a wind blown around by a leaf.
Thing is, a reply to that question would be specific to me and wouldn't mean thing to you. That's why words aren't adequate for the reply.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I Am That I Am.
So spake the lord unto his diciples. That is ego that is me, I am that i am. The real you is your ego because you create that portion of yourself but who creates it you ask You Do and you are ego. If one were to merge with the universe then there concept of ego would not be destroyed merely changed to a new and different ideal.
"Oh no, Savagi taught us to control and guide the ego, but not to destroy it. One never eradicates the root completely so why try."-The Kundalini Equation
wind blown around by a leaf, [;)]
I have another question then.
Would you still exist as an individual without a ego?
No.
then there is no "you", there never was.
Akensai:quote:
Would you still exist as an individual without a ego?
Yes, but not a s separate individual apart from everything else.
The diffenrece is mostly perceptual imho.
2cents & L&L
jouni
using a zen koan can punch a hole in the ego to realise the true state of existence. Ego acts like a wall, stopping the true nature from shining through
Samsara
But a koan can lead to an illumination lacking the invaluable understanding of one's individual presence in the non-dual existence.
That's why the necessity of continuing to deepen one's realization becomes paramount after the first glimpse of self-realization.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I think this subject relates a la "corportate restructuring" or "computer defragment".
Sounds nuts eh?
People lack the knowledge that there are many different "I's" housed under one roof (body). The ego which craves self-worth directs the person to seek out desires. Desires lead to obsessions. This is common with the ego because its craving for self-worth is also a search towards happiness/contentment.
So what is contentment? When someone smokes a joint or has sex or wins a million dollars, what is the ONE thing that is common in all these experiences?!?
Awareness of the Moment, the NOW. When someone is happy, they are focused/magnetized/attracted to being aware of the PRESENT. Not the past and not the future which is the act of seeking externalities to manifest something within.
So my point for saying all of this is that the ego searches down the wrong path. So for the healthy 'adept', it is necessary to take the self, shuffle and identify the myriad of little I's, and reorganize it all in a hierarchy. Higher-self/Intuitional (awareness in the NOW) at the top, Intellectual 2nd, Emotional 3rd, etc. Perhaps I am bunching other 'centers' together, but I think the reader gets what I mean. The ego resides as a personality between the intellectual and emotional centers, so it should still exist beneath the solidified "I" that doesn't change from moment to moment, searching and craving for an externality to focus itself once again towards happiness. Because the search will always be a waste-of-time. Because such a road is in the shape of a circle. Because it all resides from within and not from anything outside. They are only catalysts.
Just some thoughts...
Destroy the ego? No, it has to exsist for a reason (someone fill that in for me please)
Not allowing it to drive you crazy, yes. If you allow your ego to become upset, you become more and more subjective rather then seeing things for what they really are...which is ultimately what enlightment is all about! Seeing the truth without the crap you make up!
Reality[:)]
Given free reign the ego will search its ultimate realization as a crystallization of all there is.
You have to perceive the disctintion between you and the ego and render the ego as the tool of individual perception that it should be.
That way it's entirely possile to perceive and experience the ubiquitous eternal now and the equally proverbial oneness of all while still being able to contrast them with individual perception.
The thing about the enlightenment experience is that it can lead you astray just as easily as any other experience. You can have the Bing Blink and think there is nothing and then someone asks you "Who had the Big Blink?"
There is always a perceiver but the secret is to realize the unity between the observer and the experience and between the experience and eerything else as a whole. It's a circle and the deepest ralization comes from finally being able to say "I choose this as the start of the circle."
2cents & L&L
Jouni
I have experienced my EGO out of control. Not a pretty sight, and a barrow full of bad karma to go with it. I still have problems with it. Condesending attitude, and talking down to people when I know better are signs I still have much work to do.
But, In knowing that I also lessen the effects. I think beyond the here and now, I look for alternatives that don't require ego.
Then again, there are times to use EGO. After all, what good is a tool if it's never used? If the Goddess gave you a tool, and you worked a physical lifetime to be rid of it, doesn't that imply you aren't considering the big picture? For why would you be given a tool to never use? I've never bought into being given something you have to work a lifetime to get rid of.....
Indeed why get rid of a perfectly good hammer? Just replace the shaft and get a good grip on it.
2cents & L&L
jouni
Can't the ego be shown that whatever it craves only brings temporary happiness so it will then work with the higher self to attain true nature?
Samsara
fear is the root of ego, who will do everything to maintain itself regardless of what you may already know, one of the ways is to perceive the ego from the outside, from the real I (whatever you may call it) and then work on it, if you don't understand that the ego is not the centre of you, and that emotions you feel at the moment are not you, effects will be temporary, self-observation is the key
(to know is not equal to understand)
Wouldn't it rather be: "Ego is the root of fear?"
2cents & L&L
Jouni
Fear due to attachments. Egor only likes to gain...aggrandize.
Indeed.
The fear of losing or harming the attachments by which the out of control ego tries to define itself.
Once the ego is rendred into its proper place as a tool of focusing individual perspectives most if not all fears disappear as we realize the true extent of our existence and infinite nature of our being.
2cents & L&L
Jouni
It seems a common theme among those who wish for enlightenment to strive to destroy the ego. To become a part of the whole and remove the I.But could not the way of the ego merely be a different path, a changed perspective.When ones ego reaches fullfillment then you would be all things. Some wish to join the universe as you are already apart of it. But I say that it is a part of me. A different ideal entirely. I beleive it may have been said that the ego gets in the way of psicick devolopement like telepathy. But isnt it really that what you view as you you have perfect control over, the act of expanding you field of influence(ego) would come out the same as letting the source or god or w/e enter and become a part of you.Two roads traveling to the same destination from different paths. I am not one with the universe the universe is one with me.