"I am more Enlightened than you.."

[Naykid]

We're talking about enlightenment, not beliefs. Enlightenment itself is just a word. It can be used to describe an experience. To tell someone who has had an experience they describe as enlightenment as BS is being judgmental. I have no idea where hell and karma fit into this.

I think because PR mentioned that enlightenment was a scam to make people behave morally.  I'm not quite sure how that does tie in to being enlightened... I just think it's a overall good idea to have a moral compass.

[Stookie]

Absolutely. Of course everyone has their own morals that can differ from someone elses, but holding onto good ideals can be a very positive thing and guide you to the right places. Maybe even to enlightenment.

One last thing about enlightenment - it should be liberating. From physical materialism and belief systems and attachment to definitions, as it can't be described or defined or put into a box, only experienced.

[WASD]

I like your description of Enlightened Stookie. But it makes it very easy for "non enlightened people" to dismiss it as religious crap. But i guess that's just the way it is.
You simply can't prove that something like "enlightenment" is real without experiencing it yourself. But you can't really know because you feel, like people who feel there is a god (may be a bad example for some).
You can't really know anything.

[personalreality]

just because some people are spiritually deluded, doesn't mean my point isn't valid.

to clarify, here's my point.

enlightenment, if it's anything, is beyond human comprehension.  it's some abstract term to describe something that "spiritual adepts" have supposedly experienced.  but to even begin to assume that mere humans can possibly comprehend transcendence of perception beyond the bounds of our human experience is just plain silly.  ask a zen master what enlightenment is and they will tell you that you are stupid for even asking.  defining and aspiring to achieve enlightenment is counterproductive.  it's not something you attain, it's something you are and you are it right now.  so, in a sense, discussing that word and talking about it like it's something you can have or be is exactly the same as scaring someone with the threat of eternal suffering unless they are morally just. 

being compassionate to other human beings isn't a question of morality though.  morality is just another way that people are tricked into deeper and deeper duality.  nothing is black and white, everything is gray.  but, if you are genuinely compassionate towards other people then you can help create an integrated society where we all work together towards achieving a human utopia.  you don't need to bring arbitrary morality into it, that's just gonna muck things up.

so if you hold enlightenment as some pinnacle of spiritual achievement or the goal that you aspire to or even consider the word to represent the experience at all, then you are a hopelessly deluded case.


I don't know if this is clear, but i'm basically tell you all that there are no rules, nothing is definite.  there is no answer, there is no question.  there is only your subjective experience and you get to decide what that is and what meaning it has for you.  don't ask other people because their experience is theirs not yours and so it is useless to you.  you will never learn to find the source of your being if you constantly turn to the watered down opinions of other people.  everything is possible, just try.

[Stookie]

Thank you for a thoughtful reply PR. That's all I wanted. You can't go into a church and just yell "you're all wrong!" and leave. I mean, you can, but it won't help anything.

I like your description of Enlightened Stookie. But it makes it very easy for "non enlightened people" to dismiss it as religious crap. But i guess that's just the way it is.
You simply can't prove that something like "enlightenment" is real without experiencing it yourself. But you can't really know because you feel, like people who feel there is a god (may be a bad example for some).
You can't really know anything.

All I said is that it's an indescribable realization, nothing religious or mystical about it. I never said what about - it could be something unique to each individual. And I'm not saying that's it should be a goal or end to anything at all, life goes on as normal. Everyone's experiences are unique to them. My main point was that it's not right for anyone else to say that what they haven't experienced is fantasy or a belief system because it doesn't fit in with their belief system. You've got to be open minded or you'll just keep coming to the same things over and over again and never progress.

[Naykid]

Enlightened.

1: freed from ignorance and misinformation <an enlightened people> <an enlightened time>

2: based on full comprehension of the problems involved <issued an enlightened ruling>

I was looking at enlightened as having knowledge, not in a mystical way or something beyond human comprehension.  Like the other day I was enlightened on how delicious creme filled donuts are because I finally tried one. 

being compassionate to other human beings isn't a question of morality though.  morality is just another way that people are tricked into deeper and deeper duality.  nothing is black and white, everything is gray.  but, if you are genuinely compassionate towards other people then you can help create an integrated society where we all work together towards achieving a human utopia.  you don't need to bring arbitrary morality into it, that's just gonna muck things up.

I don't know if this is clear, but i'm basically tell you all that there are no rules, nothing is definite.  there is no answer, there is no question.  there is only your subjective experience and you get to decide what that is and what meaning it has for you.  don't ask other people because their experience is theirs not yours and so it is useless to you.  you will never learn to find the source of your being if you constantly turn to the watered down opinions of other people.  everything is possible, just try.   

I don't get this.  Are you saying it's ok to be an A-hole because you know that there will be no recourse for your bad behaviour, so continue being an A-hole?  That scares me.  In the world today, there are too many people doing mean and awful things to others because they think that it doesn't matter, that there are no rules. 

For example did anyone see that couple who taunted a seven year old child who is in the last stages of a degenerative brain disorder diagnosed as Huntington's Disease?- the same disease which killed her mother.  I'd rather have those two people believing that they will burn in some kind of hell for doing such a thing than running around clapping their hands with joy that they can be turds to a dying little girl.

[personalreality]

cool

[Xanth]

cool

Very

[CFTraveler]

Ditto.  Well said Nay.

[Naykid]

Thanks CF. 

PR, I was hoping that you would answer my question on whether or not my assumption was right, but I see that you and your bro decided to take the high road and practice being adults.  Keep this up and you'll both be there in a few years.  Good luck with that.

[personalreality]

I'm sorry Nay.  I've been having some stressful times these past couple of days and I have felt a plethora of emotions that have nothing to do with this conversation.  so, rather than respond out of the anger and sadness that have been the overall theme of my life the past couple days, i decided i would do better to not respond at all.  perhaps once i've handled my current problems and have once again become centered, we can continue.  but until then, i'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion on morality with you.  it won't be productive for us or the forum.

i humbly concede and remove myself from any further discussion until i decide that i am capable of continuing said discussion with a clear and level head.

[Lezi]

I for one believe in karma. What Karma means is different to each individual but I personally believe Karma goes a long the lines of this: Say somebody beats the heck out of a hobo. Well, rather than being "punished" by karma they instead must go through what that hobo went through in a later life or so. That is what I believe Karma is. Karma is not there to keep somebody in line, but rather to help us have a better understanding of others and to help us learn from our mistakes

[Xanth]

I for one believe in karma. What Karma means is different to each individual but I personally believe Karma goes a long the lines of this: Say somebody beats the heck out of a hobo. Well, rather than being "punished" by karma they instead must go through what that hobo went through in a later life or so. That is what I believe Karma is. Karma is not there to keep somebody in line, but rather to help us have a better understanding of others and to help us learn from our mistakes

But, is that not exactly what you're suggesting that it is?

You do something bad, so at some future point in time be it in this life or another, you're "forced" into experiencing that "bad" that you did to someone else.

This is why I simply can't accept Karma into my belief system anymore as I fully control my own life (here and whatever future life I may partake).

[Naykid]

But, is that not exactly what you're suggesting that it is?

You do something bad, so at some future point in time be it in this life or another, you're "forced" into experiencing that "bad" that you did to someone else.

This is why I simply can't accept Karma into my belief system anymore as I fully control my own life (here and whatever future life I may partake).

I don't think it means you are "forced" persay.  I believe YOU have control of how fast or slow you want to learn.  I'm curious though, why does the idea of karma make some uncomfortable?  Is it an authority issue?  A control issue?  I'm not quite sure what leaves the bad taste in ones mouth.

[Jarrod]

I'm gonna but into this conversation real quick and give my opinion on karma.  I think it's just another word for that all encompassing natural law of the universe: Like Attracts Like.  So karma functions for the same reason that dream pools form, or even for the same reason that matter is attracted to itself.

[Stookie]

But, is that not exactly what you're suggesting that it is?

You do something bad, so at some future point in time be it in this life or another, you're "forced" into experiencing that "bad" that you did to someone else.

This is why I simply can't accept Karma into my belief system anymore as I fully control my own life (here and whatever future life I may partake).

But aren't the decisions you make influenced by past choices? Perhaps the life you chose now you picked due to the outcomes of other lives you've lived and what you still need. And how this life turns out can effect the choices made in other lives. In this case, you make the decisions, but it still follows the idea behind karma.

[Xanth]

I like to think I made those choices through complete free will for my own benefit.
Not because some law or rule forced/persuaded/nudged me to do it. 

I guess we could just be talking, yet again, semantics?  LoL

I guess I just see the application of "karma" as something forced upon a person.

[Stookie]

I like to think I made those choices through complete free will for my own benefit.
Not because some law or rule forced/persuaded/nudged me to do it. 

I guess we could just be talking, yet again, semantics?  LoL

I guess I just see the application of "karma" as something forced upon a person.

You can't escape cause and effect. What has happened will effect what is going to happen (what decisions you make). If you make bad decisions, things will be effected. The idea isn't so much that you're being judged and forced, but that you need to be conscious and aware and responsible of choices you make. In this case, Karma is really just common sense.

[Naykid]

Nicely said, Stookie. 

[Xanth]

In a single lifetime situation, yes.  I wouldn't call that Karma though.
In a multi-lifetime situation... I don't believe so.

[Stookie]

In a single lifetime situation, yes.  I wouldn't call that Karma though.
In a multi-lifetime situation... I don't believe so.

You don't think it's possible that all of your physical lives could be connected? Wouldn't you think that when you start choosing the next life, those choices are made from previous experiences? If not, what would those choices be based on?

To me, this seems like an important part of the "whole". Even Monroe and Frank agreed on that.

[Taoistguy]

Where does this wisdom of choosing what our next life is come from? Are we suddenly imbued with Wisdom when we die that we can make that choise? Or do we still hold the same values and judgements we have whilst alive? Or is it all random?

[Xanth]

It definitely "can" play a role in your choices.
But I don't believe it "has" to play a role in your choices.

I mean, as Robert Monroe once said... perhaps in one life he just felt like he didn't eat enough Hamburgers.
Sure, he could decide to come back JUST for that reason, but then again, he could just as easily decide against it this time.

That was a great video... I think that was his Wednesdays with Robert videos. LoL
Hamburgers... that guy cracks me up. 

[WASD]

I mean, as Robert Monroe once said... perhaps in one life he just felt like he didn't eat enough Hamburgers.
Sure, he could decide to come back JUST for that reason, but then again, he could just as easily decide against it this time.

That was a great video... I think that was his Wednesdays with Robert videos. LoL

I've watched that one and I don't remember anything about hamburgers but he said something like "perhaps in one life you didn't X and you want to return to that".

[Taoistguy]

So if I thought I hadn't killed anyone, I could come back to kill people? Or am I taking it too basically?
I've always thought, that if reincarnation like that was possible, then there would be more meaning and loving soirit involved?