why religions always have puritanical attitude towards sex and other so called lower nature of man, lower nature doesn't mean evil nature like lust and passion at least for me.
Most likely so leaders can control the masses.
Because when you control "Sex", you control the people coming into this physical reality! Sex is the gateway here.
Quote from: mon9999 on May 04, 2011, 05:28:10
why religions always have puritanical attitude towards sex and other so called lower nature of man, lower nature doesn't mean evil nature like lust and passion at least for me.
The truth of the matter is that all religion eventually becomes corrupted about a hundred years after its inception. In the case of Catholicism in which the puritanical attitudes you speak of are coming from, are based on an incomplete (excepted canocal) set of scriptures, of which the original gospel accounts are either hidden far beneath the Vatican, or were destroyed long ago. Others came up some many years later, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library.
Originally, the scriptures were written in a way to help guide the seeker in a way of life that would lead to salvation. Salvation being the reunion of the Spirit, Mind, and Body. When we are in a lower nature of man, which is the case (as in the majority) at our present time on the earth, the masses are merely unconsciously being moved by the Laws. Only after raising our consciousness can we know and understand the Laws of God and how they work upon the lower nature of man. And sex happens to be one of the keys to raising our consciousness, and is therefore an area in which the left hand of God (what most think of when they think of "evil") is able to work to bring about a snails pace of Spiritual evolution, and until man can raise up his lower nature to support the will of God, can we be reunited and complete. Evil is simply the lower animal nature interacting with the Laws of God and having his actions returned back to him. Karmic cycles are how the lower animal nature evolves at a literal snails pace, and the fact that only after having "sinned", have we experienced the Left hand of God, and have incurred the laws upon us, do we learn from our mistake and act upon our world and invoke the right hand of God, the same law in which we get the fruit of our works.
So, yes...you can say a puritanical attitude is a bi-product of an institutional authority hell bent on controlling the masses, but what is not seen are the laws working against their motives because of their own secret intentions, laws which invoke the opposite of their desired effect. So when you have an institutional authority that forces puritanical attitudes upon the people (sheeple) that have flocked to man as their salvation, you have a recipe of karma building over many many lifetimes. And rather than leading by example and following in the footsteps of their savior, they (the religious authorities) find themselves in their own decaying ism that is becoming overwhelmed with scandals and conspiracy.
Yes it is about control. Connected with this is the need not to lose control. So they carried out the institutionalisation of religion (and thus created what we today label 'religion' as opposed to spirituality) by creating a "church" and letting its authorities act as 'intermediaries' between the common people and God. Sex and drugs (and RnR?) was viewed as a way of direct communication with God/transcendence by the ancient people. That's why it was forbidden or at least heavily restricted, otherwise it would have been a "competitor", but people needed to be kept away from direct spiritual experience (hence astral projection is devil's work, too!).
"For centuries, the impression given by religionists is that to be a moral person, one must not only forgo but disdain sexuality, viewing it as if it were a curse from the devil rather than a 'gift from God'. The same can be said of drugs, at least of the variety that has anything to do with altering consciousness, even if such drugs are in the form of 'God-given' plants. Hence, the picture of a religious or righteous individual is basically someone who must have (heterosexual) sex only with one person within a sanctioned marriage, if at all; to be in a constant state of procreation; and to remain as sober as 'a judge'. To those who think life is to be enjoyed, rather than endured, this picture represents a dull, robotic state, to say the least.
The reality is that there have been times on this planet when cultures have recognized sacred sexual practices and sacramental plants not only as gifts from 'God' but also paths to 'God', or 'Cosmic Consciousness', as it were. Indeed, sex and drugs have been considered from time immemorial as devices to create union with the divine, which is a major reason behind the negative spin put on them by religionists, who insist that only they, 'Jesus' or some other entity can be avenues to the divine. In actuality, it is the priest's task to create an artificial separation between human beings and the omnipresent 'God'. (...)
These sacred sex and drugs practices have thus presented a threat to power-hungry priests and their political flunkies, because, as stated, they require no intermediary between the practitioners and the divine. If an all-powerful dictatorial state religion was to succeed, it would need to destroy this concept of sacred sex and sacramental drugs from the human psyche and replace it with fear and guilt, such that those who had sex, for example, would be driven to cleanse themselves of their perceived sins by confession or other priestcraft."
- D.M. Murdoch (quoted from her work 'The Greatest Story Ever Sold').
The three most powerful biological impulses are eating, (hunger), aggression (needed for hunting and mating) and sex. If you notice, institutionalized religions go towards the control of all of those- hence food prohibitions (all major religions prohibit some food, even new-agey ones tell you what you should and shouldn't eat, and shame you if you break it)- most religions use aggression to power crusades/jihads/etc., or tell you it's wrong to feel it, and sex, well, it's been widely discussed in the previous posts.
With all due respect CFTraveler, I know you've been here and are much more active than me on this forum, but your reply had invoked this response in me, it is not all directed at you, and it is not my intention of getting into an argument over these things with you, but if you wish to debate/discuss this I would be more than happy to. It is my belief that you had left some things out and am not claiming that you claim these things to not matter. With that in mind, here is my post:
I honestly think it is sad how the failure of religion has most everyone thinking exactly the opposite of EVERYTHING religion has to offer. I have found that every religion still retains a fraction of truth. So to totally dismiss religion is like saying; just because Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and got caught, means that he was never a great golfer. See?
Now if you are happy at your vibration and do not wish to raise it into higher levels of consciousness, then I would agree that food/sex/drugs doesn't matter. BUT, if it is your aim to raise your vibration to that of higher levels of consciousness, then I would strongly suggest that food/sex/drugs has a HUGE part of the equation.
Food: You are what you eat, that simple. One huge example is that of Meat, which carries the vibration of death, which will inhibit one raising their vibration beyond a certain level, no matter how much exercising of the mind they can do! The body is an integral part of the whole, and must be treated as a vessel for the Mind to expand beyond the organic consciousness of this world.
Drugs: They inhibit your normal frequencies, and though some drugs induce hallucination and is one way of altering consciousness, but is that the goal? Or rather, doing it natural without substances? Was it Gods great plan to just give us a drug so that we can find out their are other levels of consciousness, or was it meant to be the only way to experience other levels of consciousness? (Rhetorical question)
Sex: Sex is EVERYTHING! It is the foundation of the pattern of life itself...think about it.
Quote from: Brolyson on May 11, 2011, 19:19:15
With all due respect CFTraveler, I know you've been here and are much more active than me on this forum, but your reply had invoked this response in me, it is not all directed at you, and it is not my intention of getting into an argument over these things with you, but if you wish to debate/discuss this I would be more than happy to. It is my belief that you had left some things out and am not claiming that you claim these things to not matter. With that in mind, here is my post:
No problem. If you have preconceptions on what I believe that is your prerogative. But realize I didn't say that 'religion' is bad- I said that institutionalized religion is used to control. Just like other ideologies are used to control. It is not the religious faith that is the problem- it is the institutionalization of a belief system that is the problem.
I realize you can't know what I believe and have not read everything I've written, but I urge you to take a look at my older posts. You may be surprised to find out that I sometimes defend religion in certain threads, and actually studied to be a minister. So I am very aware of the positives religious thought has to offer.
But that's not what the thread is about, it's about why institutionalized religions tend to look down on sex.
QuoteI honestly think it is sad how the failure of religion has most everyone thinking exactly the opposite of EVERYTHING religion has to offer. I have found that every religion still retains a fraction of truth. So to totally dismiss religion is like saying; just because Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and got caught, means that he was never a great golfer. See?
But I'm not totally dismissing religion, I'm pointing out what happens when ideology becomes institutionalized.
QuoteNow if you are happy at your vibration and do not wish to raise it into higher levels of consciousness, then I would agree that food/sex/drugs doesn't matter. BUT, if it is your aim to raise your vibration to that of higher levels of consciousness, then I would strongly suggest that food/sex/drugs has a HUGE part of the equation.
I'm not sure who you're talking to here, but I don't see what it has to do with what I wrote.
QuoteFood: You are what you eat, that simple. One huge example is that of Meat, which carries the vibration of death, which will inhibit one raising their vibration beyond a certain level, no matter how much exercising of the mind they can do! The body is an integral part of the whole, and must be treated as a vessel for the Mind to expand beyond the organic consciousness of this world.
Drugs: They inhibit your normal frequencies, and though some drugs induce hallucination and is one way of altering consciousness, but is that the goal? Or rather, doing it natural without substances? Was it Gods great plan to just give us a drug so that we can find out their are other levels of consciousness, or was it meant to be the only way to experience other levels of consciousness? (Rhetorical question)
Sex: Sex is EVERYTHING! It is the foundation of the pattern of life itself...think about it.
Once again, I don't know what this has to do with what I said. Please reread what I said.
So let's do 'food' and 'meat': The desire or choice to eat or not eat meat is not the issue, the fact that institutionalized religions have very specific prohibitions designed to alienate their followers from nonfollowers is the issue.
Abrahamic religions separated their believers by telling them what they could eat and what they couldn't.
In judaism they didn't prohibit meat, they prohibited certain meats, and prohibited the combination of meats with dairy and the eating of unblessed foods. This ensured that they remain separate from gentiles, making sure that their thought processes didn't combine with others, and by alienating them from others ensured that they were disliked- it is possibly a good reason why jewish people were persecuted. Because they didn't eat with everyone else, they were not allowed to by their religion. You see, others didn't 'get' that they were not allowed to even eat on a plate that had touched the wrong food, so it was dangerous to eat with nonfollowers.
The same as Muslims- they are not allowed to eat pork and drink alchohol, once again isolating them from others and mealtime, making them 'exclusive' and going a long way towards making them not be liked.
Catholics were not allowed to eat meat on fridays and certain holidays, and some sects of protestantism is not allowed to drink alchohol or eat certain food combinations.
Vegetarianism is interesting, because only Hindus embrace it completely- not because of any vibrational belief, but because they consider cows to be 'our mothers', and this would be cannibalism. Tibetan buddhists eat meat, if it is slaughtered by someone else. When they lived in Tibet, they paid Muslims to slaughter their oxen, so they could eat the meat if they went to a Muslim butcher shop. So the prohibition is not based on a broad belief about meat, it is specific to a religion and a region.
There are lots of different food prohibitions in different religions, but they all have one thing in common- they separate people from 'others' and alienate them. In fact, your reaction to me "if you don't want to raise your vibration bla bla" illustrates what I'm saying- your attitude is, that you and I are not equal, because I don't follow (or you don't think I follow) your food choices.
Thanks for making my point.
I said:
Quote"...it is not all directed at you...
and...
QuoteIt is my belief that you had left some things out and am not claiming that you claim these things to not matter.
But then you respond with:
QuoteBut realize I didn't say that 'religion' is bad- I said that institutionalized religion is used to control.
I never said religion was 'bad', I commented on how the failure of religion has made most people negate what it has to offer...again, this was not entirely directed at you, but more to those who are interested in this topic and have read it from top to bottom. I have interacted with you on this forum before, this is why I put up a disclaimer. :-D
Quote from: CFTraveler on May 11, 2011, 21:28:36
So let's do 'food' and 'meat': The desire or choice to eat or not eat meat is not the issue, the fact that institutionalized religions have very specific prohibitions designed to alienate their followers from nonfollowers is the issue.
Abrahamic religions separated their believers by telling them what they could eat and what they couldn't.
In judaism they didn't prohibit meat, they prohibited certain meats, and prohibited the combination of meats with dairy and the eating of unblessed foods. This ensured that they remain separate from gentiles, making sure that their thought processes didn't combine with others, and by alienating them from others ensured that they were disliked- it is possibly a good reason why jewish people were persecuted. Because they didn't eat with everyone else, they were not allowed to by their religion. You see, others didn't 'get' that they were not allowed to even eat on a plate that had touched the wrong food, so it was dangerous to eat with nonfollowers.
The same as Muslims- they are not allowed to eat pork and drink alchohol, once again isolating them from others and mealtime, making them 'exclusive' and going a long way towards making them not be liked.
Catholics were not allowed to eat meat on fridays and certain holidays, and some sects of protestantism is not allowed to drink alchohol or eat certain food combinations.
Vegetarianism is interesting, because only Hindus embrace it completely- not because of any vibrational belief, but because they consider cows to be 'our mothers', and this would be cannibalism. Tibetan buddhists eat meat, if it is slaughtered by someone else. When they lived in Tibet, they paid Muslims to slaughter their oxen, so they could eat the meat if they went to a Muslim butcher shop. So the prohibition is not based on a broad belief about meat, it is specific to a religion and a region.
There are lots of different food prohibitions in different religions, but they all have one thing in common- they separate people from 'others' and alienate them. In fact, your reaction to me "if you don't want to raise your vibration bla bla" illustrates what I'm saying- your attitude is, that you and I are not equal, because I don't follow (or you don't think I follow) your food choices.
Thanks for making my point.
Do I consider myself more knowledgeable than you on these matters? Yes, I do, but only based on the incomplete response you had given, which does not mean that you do not know more than what you had written. Which is why I put out the disclaimer, that if you wished to continue this that I would be happy to do so. Do you understand what being invoked means? Why else would I of added what I felt you did not mention in your reply to the questioner of this thread? Because I was invoked to do so. If you can understand that, then you can understand why there are others who do know more than you, and who will come along and challenge your beliefs so much that you get all defensive and then accuse me of being an elitist without giving more than a quick glance over what I have said.
From what you have written in the above, I can discern, from what you write, where your understanding is, compared to where my understanding is on such matters as sex and religion. Again, this is only based on the LIMITED response that you had given.
So obviously I have rocked your cage a bit, (apparently I have an elitist attitude and believe that we are not all equal), but would it surprise you to know that we ARE all equal, BUT not the SAME. Perhaps looking into the allegory of Jacobs Ladder might help, being that you have been there and done that (with the whole religion thing).
I guess the question now is, have you the courage to challenge what is now your foundational thinking, or will you be complacent and continue on thinking that you know all that you ought to know, and refuse to look into what I have brought to your attention.
Edit: If you wish to make this into a private discussion, then I will be happy to switch format. Seems we might have some unfinished karmic business we need to hash out.
Quote from: mon9999 on May 04, 2011, 05:28:10
why religions always have puritanical attitude towards sex and other so called lower nature of man, lower nature doesn't mean evil nature like lust and passion at least for me.
Mainstream religions are something completely different to the teachings of the beings (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna etc.) after which religions were formed. Religions have tendecy to condition and control which is never good. In regards to sex in religions, the same is taught by all of those figures and is known as White tantra or Alchemy. It's a different kind of use of sex, it is not based on lust and it consist of not wasting sexual energies with orgasm.
In regards to why religion consider lust to be of a lower nature...the core of every religion and ancient culture has awakening/enlightenment as the ultimate goal. This is when a soul removes all those energies of earth (such as anger, jelously, fear, pride, greed, lust etc.) and become one with it's Higher Self, and then is liberated from Earth and has freedom to experience the multidimensional Universe or to return to the Source/Absolute/God consciousness, whatever you wish to call it. You might have read Monroe's last book. There he went thrrough similar process where, once he became one with his I-There (large part of Higher Self), he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination.
Edit: I edited from what I wrote the first time for the sake of clearer terminology.
Religion is big for many people, which is why when you ask questions you need to be careful. Whenever i say something to my parents about their religion they go ape sh*t. So, ima stay out of this. Just decided to give you a word of caution though.
~astraladdict
Sex: yes please
Religion: no thanks
Ditto.
Even at my age, (21 again, twice plus........)
ha ha.
Quote from: stan on August 12, 2011, 09:18:41
Mainstream religions are something completely different to the teachings of the beings (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna etc.) after which religions were formed. Religions have tendecy to condition and control which is never good. In regards to sex in religions, the same is taught by all of those figures and is known as White tantra or Alchemy. It's a different kind of use of sex, it is not based on lust and it consist of not wasting sexual energies with orgasm.
In regards to why religion consider lust to be of a lower nature...the core of every religion and ancient culture has awakening/enlightenment as the ultimate goal. This is when a soul removes all those energies of earth (such as anger, jelously, fear, pride, greed, lust etc.) and become one with it's Higher Self, and then is liberated from Earth and has freedom to experience the multidimensional Universe or to return to the Source/Absolute/God consciousness, whatever you wish to call it. You might have read Monroe's last book. There he went thrrough similar process where, once he became one with his I-There (large part of Higher Self), he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination.
Edit: I edited from what I wrote the first time for the sake of clearer terminology.
Interesting thoughts, Stan.
Can you explain how orgasm is a 'waste' of sexual energy? How does "White tantra or Alchemy" use this energy? I have heard tell of this sort of thing many times over the years but rarely does anyone give a useful explanation of just exactly what it is and how it actually works in practice. Does it work the same for women as it does for men?
From what I have read, Robert Monroe had a normal (orgasmic) connubial relationship with his beloved wife all his married life yet still, he managed to reach the Ultimate Destination.
:?
Rudolph, sexual energies are the most powerful energies which a human being has. When I say sexual energies, I don't mean lust. Auric energy for example is part of that sexual energy. What happens when one has an orgasm is a massive loss of sexual energies and huge strengthening/increase of all the illusionary make up that is covering our consciousness (such as lust, anger, pride etc.). Lust is at the root of those negative energies, so when you feed lust, you feed all of them. If for example a person is practicing chastity (refraining from orgasms) and is applying technique of transformation of those negative energies into something of a higher type, and then when orgasm accidentally happen during sleep, you see massive difference in your state. You feel like drugged, retarded, horrible. Definitely something very diffiult to put into words.
White Tantra/Alchemy works the same for both women and men. Basically when two opposites poles are united during sex, there is a new powerful energy present, even science discovered this new energy. With a technique which includes breathing and visualisation, a couple raises this energy from the base chakra, up the spine to the brain and down to the heart. Such transmuted energy is said to have numerous benefits, basically one is transforming entire inner energetic structure and is also forging higher energy bodies with which one can travel to a higher planes of existence.
In regards to Robert Monroe, I think it's in his first or second book where he first realized that urge for sex is a hindrance in his travels. He started using "not now, later" approach each time this urge would manifest when he would be out of body. Then in later book when he saw more of reality, he realized that lust is not really a friend ;)
Quote from: stan on August 13, 2011, 23:52:47
Rudolph, sexual energies are the most powerful energies which a human being has.
Just playing devil's advocate for a second here.... but says who?
Is this something that has been empirically proven? Or just opinion?
I think its important to realise that alot of what we told you can and cannot do are all from the voices of other humans who are in a state of control in religion.
Religion and Spirituality, to me, should be kept separate in the most part. Religion is living in the physical, more then spiritual.
Quote from: Ryan_ on August 13, 2011, 23:59:16
Is this something that has been empirically proven? Or just opinion?
I highly doubt that it can be empirically proven by current science. For science to empiracally prove which one is THE most powerful human energy, they would have to be aware of all other non-physical energies that pertain to human, and that won't happen anytime soon.
Though science is aware of certain things regarding the sexual energies. Marnia Robinson has wrote a book "Peace between sheets" and it relates to that scientific aspect as well.
You can see her intro on the book on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3koMhG-2vA
That statement you quoted is based on universal esoteric teachings.
Also, just to mention that the practice I described above should not be done on its own. There are other things that must go in conjunction with it in order for the practice to has beneficial results. If it is done on its own, the transmuted energy will strengthen negative human aspect.
Hey, have you heard that tantric sex can lead to enlightenment? If so, then sex can be just as beneficial as everything else when applied creatively. Everything has its purpose and I don't have to mention why sex is, do I? :-D
Hi there,
Just to clarify, it's not my intention to redirect anyone from their regular routine of anything. I'm just sharing what I know about it through my own experience and what some of developed beings have said. I really wouldn't put much value in their words if I wouldn't know their true nature and if wouldn't see the fruits of their teachings. What you do with what I share is entirely up to you.
Summerlander, as I already said there are two ways to use sex. One is tantric and other is normal. Yes, the purpose of normal sex is procreation and continuation of species. if you look at animal world you'll see that they use sex only for procreation and not for pleasure. Take a female dog for example, she is only "open" for sex 6 weeks per year, which clearly shows the original use of sex. However, since we humans have creative mind, we distorted this original use of procreation and use it out of pleasure.
One could argue that sex is important in order to procreate. But then again, if you consider how many people on Earth is willing to make the effort to get rid of the "heavy load" (to use Monroe's term), you will see that those are just a few. Those few really won't make any difference in a grand scheme of continuation of species.
And it is said that, if you have strong intention about it and direct it to your Higher Self, it is possible to have babies without orgasms because only one semen is enough to impregnate the womb, and some always get lost even when there is no orgasm. Whether that's true or not I dunno.
Quote from: stan on August 13, 2011, 23:52:47
Rudolph, sexual energies are the most powerful energies which a human being has. When I say sexual energies, I don't mean lust. Auric energy for example is part of that sexual energy. What happens when one has an orgasm is a massive loss of sexual energies and huge strengthening/increase of all the illusionary make up that is covering our consciousness (such as lust, anger, pride etc.). Lust is at the root of those negative energies, so when you feed lust, you feed all of them. If for example a person is practicing chastity (refraining from orgasms) and is applying technique of transformation of those negative energies into something of a higher type, and then when orgasm accidentally happen during sleep, you see massive difference in your state. You feel like drugged, retarded, horrible. Definitely something very diffiult to put into words.
White Tantra/Alchemy works the same for both women and men. Basically when two opposites poles are united during sex, there is a new powerful energy present, even science discovered this new energy. With a technique which includes breathing and visualisation, a couple raises this energy from the base chakra, up the spine to the brain and down to the heart. Such transmuted energy is said to have numerous benefits, basically one is transforming entire inner energetic structure and is also forging higher energy bodies with which one can travel to a higher planes of existence.
In regards to Robert Monroe, I think it's in his first or second book where he first realized that urge for sex is a hindrance in his travels. He started using "not now, later" approach each time this urge would manifest when he would be out of body. Then in later book when he saw more of reality, he realized that lust is not really a friend ;)
Again, interesting ideas, but you did not answer the question; "Can you explain how orgasm is a 'waste' of sexual energy? How does "White tantra or Alchemy" use this energy?" Can you give an example that might clarify this?
Since I am married and have fairly frequent sex, it has been a long time since I have experienced a nocturnal emmission but back when I did, I know that I did NOT experience feeling, "drugged, retarded, horrible". Quite the contrary, in fact. 8-)
I read all of Robert Monroe's books and I do not recall where he made any such admission. I think I do remember him stating outright that sex was basically irrelevant to the inner exploration and progress.
QuoteSuch transmuted energy is said to have numerous benefits, basically one is transforming entire inner energetic structure and is also forging higher energy bodies with which one can travel to a higher planes of existence.
I have heard of claims like this in the past. I read of the Taoist Immortals, one sect of which stores the 'vital fluids' in a knot on the forehead near the third eye. It is rumored to grant extreme longevity and other amazing powers and abilities. But no one seems to have actually met one so it is impossible to verify.
I have also heard about this 'forging' of higher energy bodies but I do not understand what they are for because I have not done this work yet I can still travel into the Higher Realms - astral, mental/causal and Atmic. I am sincerely curious about this though. I am always game for new and challenging Schools of Practice that actually produce results. If I chose to pursue this practice of White tantra Alchemy for a year or two what objective and observable results would I see? And then after five years?....
Rudolph,
"Can you explain how orgasm is a 'waste' of sexual energy?
With orgasms, sexual energies are released outwards, out of you and out of your energy field. I don't have high sensitivity, but those who have have said that their aura actually shrinks in size.
"How does "White tantra or Alchemy" use this energy?" Can you give an example that might clarify this?"
During Alchemy this sexual energy is mixed with the new energy which came from the sexual connection with the opposite pole. It is then transmuted by pulling it up with breathing and visualisation technique from base chakra, up the spine, through the brain and down to the heart.
"Since I am married and have fairly frequent sex, it has been a long time since I have experienced a nocturnal emmission but back when I did, I know that I did NOT experience feeling, "drugged, retarded, horrible". Quite the contrary, in fact. "
Nocturnal emmision was just to point out to accidental orgasms. Orgasm is orgasm regardless of how it happens.
You would experience that pull backwards in a state of being if you would practice chastity and transformation of subconscius into consciousness (which means increasing consciousness by decreasing negative inner states such as anger, greed, pride etc.)
"I read all of Robert Monroe's books and I do not recall where he made any such admission. I think I do remember him stating outright that sex was basically irrelevant to the inner exploration and progress."
He indicated that when he saw "sex pile". In that same second book he also said what one needs to do in order to get free from earth. He said how one needs to get rid of the "heavy load". Heavy load is an energy of earth (anger, lust, pride, greed, fear etc.), what he got when he first came to earth, and because of which he got addicted to it, like every other soul. It is clear that he wouldn't be able to progress had he continue to endure into lust.
"I have also heard about this 'forging' of higher energy bodies but I do not understand what they are for because I have not done this work yet I can still travel into the Higher Realms - astral, mental/causal and Atmic."
That's neat that you can do it. What technique do you use? There are different techniques that allow one to travel further then astral. Apparently though (I haven't yet verified it), you go to dimension higher then mental only as a pure consciousness, outside of mind, body and personality. With higher energy bodies one can apparently go to those planes (and above Atmic) inside bodies, which is different then just going as consciousness.
They are also said to give you something extra...like for example higher astral body (also known as solar astral body) gives you ability to feel higher emotions during your everyday life. Higher/solar mental body gives ability to use mind in a superior way etc. Such bodies are supposedly also used for a higher parts of your Higher Self to come in and merge with you. So, when one builds a causal body, one incarnate Soul; with Atmic body one incarnate Atman (what Monroe calls his I-Tere) etc. Much more to this which is beyond the scope of this thread.
I am sincerely curious about this though. I am always game for new and challenging Schools of Practice that actually produce results. If I chose to pursue this practice of White tantra Alchemy for a year or two what objective and observable results would I see? And then after five years?
Alchemy goes together with elimination of egos/heavy load/negative states. Alchemy without the later can be harmful because energy would strengthen the egos, whereas with also using elimination it feeds the consciousness. I don't have a partner so I can't tell you about results from my experience, but I have friends that practice it and one can see that they have a special kind of glow. Results are apparently a complete change in psychology and how you start perceiving the world; as well as healing; psychic faculties etc. I can recommend you a book where all this is described properly.
QuoteI don't have a partner so I can't tell you about results from my experience, but I have friends that practice it and one can see that they have a special kind of glow.
Oh, the "glow"... :| ... hmmm, now I am starting to lose interest.
I don't know about you but if I gave up normal sex and vigorously pursued some disciplined, non-orgasmic tantric yoga for a period of time I would sure as heck want a little more than a 'glow' to show for the effort.
:wink:
edit: and to answer the question about the techniques used to move into the Causal and Atmic realms -- I explained in earlier posts about my years spent practicing Surat Shabda Yoga.
... and getting back to Monroe and your claim;
QuoteIn regards to Robert Monroe, I think it's in his first or second book where he first realized that urge for sex is a hindrance in his travels.
I don't remember him saying that.
He did mention the sex pile but only in reference to those trapped in a sexual addiction and obsession. When it came to regular, normal sexual activity he came right out and stated clearly that it was neither a hindrance nor an assist, in any notable way.
What is so wrong with enjoying sex? And why does a dog hump a pillow when the grump is not in the mood? :-D
Quote
Oh, the "glow"... :| ... hmmm, now I am starting to lose interest.
I don't know about you but if I gave up normal sex and vigorously pursued some disciplined, non-orgasmic tantric yoga for a period of time I would sure as heck want a little more than a 'glow' to show for the effort.
"Glow" is what is perceived externally by others, and if you are more sensitive to energies you can feel much more then a glow. As I said I do not practice it so I can only tell you what others have said what they've gain from it: higher/solar bodies, psychic faculties etc.
Quote... and getting back to Monroe and your claim;
I don't remember him saying that.
He did mention the sex pile but only in reference to those trapped in a sexual addiction and obsession. When it came to regular, normal sexual activity he came right out and stated clearly that it was neither a hindrance nor an assist, in any notable way.
Can you quote what he said and context around it? And in which book did he said it?
Quoteand to answer the question about the techniques used to move into the Causal and Atmic realms -- I explained in earlier posts about my years spent practicing Surat Shabda Yoga.
Could not find them in your last posts...can you post the link?
QuoteWhat is so wrong with enjoying sex?
There is no right or wrong here, only goals and what you want out of your life.
Energy is just that.
Now, there is from the moment of creation, a creative force manifesting, continuously, the Universe.
When we look at our world we see life being generated in plants and animals at a specific level.
Our physical bodies share levels of this process to a point. That level of generation is what most of us think of when we use the terms Sex.
This generation is HOW the One flows and manifests the many.
For mankind there is an added factor. We, after all are not just animals. That is we can focus, direct the power of attention to create new conditions for ourselves. To do that we Direct that same creative energy
to build those new conditions. If all you did was eat, sleep and f*ck, when would you have time to create languages and learn to manipulate Fire, build Societies.
Long time ago, some members of mankind learned to direct a potion of that Creative Power to do just those things.
Now there was a time when the population of man on the earth was relatively small, and there was emphasis to create larger families/tribes, etc, in order to subdue the natural world they lived in. After we reach a certain point we have energy leftover and use it.
Now to excel in any endeavor takes forming a goal and making a plan to acheive that goal and also the discipline to to all that is required to make that goal a reality.
All of the above statement involves a certain sublimation of our inherent creative power. At some levels, it is simple and just not acting like an animal to reach some success.
At other levels it takes more. The more you control the creative power the more you can create, even things that most of us would and do find unbelievable.
It has nothing to do with Morals it has everything to do with deciding to really become Human, and rise to levels above the strictly animal nature.
Remember that most religions were started during times when most of the world population lived in a state of illiteracy. There were relatively few people who were literate. So it was not really so much about political power or control of the masses.
QuoteSex: yes please
Religion: no thanks
Haha. That reminds me of Austin Powers: "Sex: yes please"
The sexual part of people gets repressed into the subconscious as we're growing up when we're still little out of necessity. It has to for any kind of society to function, just like toilet training is a necessity. It isn't natural, but it has to be done for this unnatural way in which we live called society to work. Everything that would inhibit our acceptance into society is repressed into the subconsciousness. This is where the duality of the human condition comes from. So these hidden aspects of our self are felt as separate intruding forces we must fight against to maintain our place in society. We fear what's hidden inside us that could make us unacceptable if we let it out. Religion is ultimately about being acceptable, whether it be acceptance from your fellow believers or from God. It's about controlling oneself to be good enough for something. Thus naturally the things which had to be buried to make you suitable for human society are going to become the enemy to any religion.
Jarrod...you said it all! It's all there, people. It is the most logical perspective thus far. Shaggedelic, baby! :evil:
Quote from: stan on August 15, 2011, 05:48:52
"Glow" is what is perceived externally by others, and if you are more sensitive to energies you can feel much more then a glow. As I said I do not practice it so I can only tell you what others have said what they've gain from it: higher/solar bodies, psychic faculties etc.
Can you quote what he said and context around it? And in which book did he said it?
Certainly. Context is quoted below and the key phrases are
bolded.
And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.
Far Journeys; Epilogue/End Game. (p260)
Divest Survival Sex Ties
Due to the need to protect and maintain until physical maturity the
offspring of the reproductive act, many cultures have attached certain
obligations thereto. While this is generally a purely physical requisite,
many have taken the position or inference that far more is involved. The
reproductive act is first and foremost a very powerful response to purely
sensual stimuli. The response is not in itself an emotion, although the
depth of the experience often causes fantasizing that it is exactly that and
of much greater import. To confuse the issue further, sexual union is one
of the significant ways to express the SL emotion found in the Prime
Energy.
The load reducer is to understand the difference. There is no right or
wrong engendered either way, only difference. Recognize that, from the
perspective of solely a physical act, any emotional attachments thereto
relate only to time-space reality. As a procreative act, it is physical in
nature. Unless other energy patterns emerge as a result, enjoy it but don't
get hooked on it. You don't need to take it with you, because there's better
in the original form—what you experience here sexually is a very weak
imitation of a part of a totality. No male or female "owes" the other an
obligation to copulate. Sexual attraction and attractiveness are elements of
a survival drive which is purely physical and no more.Also p. 120;
they have her strong imprint . . . I can find her in the dark or in the light, it makes no difference . . . she taught me so much without knowing she did . . . the very female human response to moments large and little, uncovered, uncolored except by her own perspective . . . all of these she shared with me . . . so that I lead not one but three lives, hers, mine, and our meld . . . and she helped me learn release from one of the most difficult of all, that physical sexual drive is not the fundamental of this energy I don't know what else to call but love, but one of the most common inducements to kindle the process . . . once the full flame is created, the inducement is not even the fuel that feeds it, but instead a
multileveled minor physical note in an infinite chord . . . To Monroe sex is just "a multileveled minor physical note".
And when you ask about what "technique" is used to travel to the trans astral realms I can only say that there is no one technique that I can point to. Surat Shabd yoga is a way of life.
I do not recommend following Rajinder but some of the exercises here give the basic idea;
http://www.meditate.com/how-to-meditate/jyoti-and-shabd-meditation
Brilliant, Rudolph! You hit the nail on the head. But you also spoilt it for me because I am currently reading Far Journeys and haven't got that far yet! LOL! :lol:
By the way, how have you been, mate? We haven't spoken in ages! :-)
Thanks for the quotes Rudolph. Few comments on keywords you bolded:
"that physical sexual drive is not the fundamental of this energy I don't know what else to call but love, but one of the most common inducements to kindle the process . . . once the full flame is created, the inducement is not even the fuel that feeds it, but instead a
multileveled minor physical note in an infinite chord . . . "
He speaks here how sexual drive is not fundemental of energy related to love, and sexual act (with LOVE) is one of the expression of it.
In Far Journey there are insightful details, either in discussions or in his own statements, where he said that "heavy load" has to be eliminated. He mentions for example pride being one of that heavy load. In discussion with ED, BB found out that all people that enter earth get addicted to it. Now, you may argue that lust is not part of that heavy load because of what he said here:
"Sexual attraction and attractiveness are elements of a survival drive which is purely physical and no more."
Many people confuse sexual attraction for lust. The later is not physcial, it is energy that manifests in human body from higher dimension, same as all other thoughts and emotions. And lust is the reason why people give into sex. Lust manifests in all main centers of the human body: in sexual organs, in emotional center, motor center, instictual center and intelectual center, prompting a person to give into sex or mastrubation. If one starts eliminating it, one would see that it is not a physical energy, and certainly not who you are.
True sexual attraction is biological, pure, yet it is distorted by lust. One wouldn't really see every pretty person of opposite sex in a desirebale way with pure biological attraction. It is lust that does that. Lust is the greatest addiction of souls to Earth. People when have sex they have lustful sex, with lust manifesting in the centers. And if you think you are not addicted to lust, try not to indulge into sex, mastrubation and having orgasms for a few days. Within those few days observe all the sexual wants and desires that will manifest as emotions, thoughts and sensations.
And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.
Usually people don't brag around with what they created. I met one for which I know for sure. For others I don't know for sure. You can verify what one has or does not have in the astral where true nature of person is displayed by default. There are likely many peopel walking on earth which are not even aware that they have those bodies, i.e. they've created it in past lifes.
Also, check out this part of the quote you posted:
"The reproductive act is first and foremost a very powerful response to purely
sensual stimuli. The response is not in itself an emotion, although the
depth of the experience often causes fantasizing that it is exactly that and
of much greater import."
This is a good demonstration about difference between sexual attraction and lust. It is said that avarege man thinks about sex every 9 or so seconds. Don't knwo exact number but he thinks A LOT about it. Avarege woman thinks A LOT about it too. This shows that lust is the main factor that gets person indulging into sex/mastrubation. I quote you Monroe now because I see that you and many other people here put a lot of value in his words. His books are great, one of my favorites when it comes to inspiration. A lot of insights one can get from it. But bear in mind that his books do not deal with HOW to spiritually develop. The way he removed his egos (through tests when out of body) was very exceptional and it's not a regular way of development. After all he claims he had 2000 (or was it 3000?) human lifes, and that makes a huge part of him being exception.
Btw. thanks for posting that link. i will check out some of those meditation techniques. So you say that by living by that kind of way you reached those high planes (Atmic etc.)?
QuoteJarrod...you said it all! It's all there, people. It is the most logical perspective thus far. Shaggedelic, baby!
Thanks Summerlander. I must admit I didn't read this whole thread though. I just read the initial question and felt like sharing the perspective I gained from studying Tantra. If you're interested in more explanations like that you should acquire a book called The Book of Secrets by Osho.
I'll look into it. It sound interesting... 8-)
Quote from: stan on August 16, 2011, 06:35:20
And re: the Solar Body forged by the White Tantra... how many people have you met that have succeeded in this effort/practice and now walk around in this life on planet earth with this 'Solar body'? I am very curious about this sort of thing.
Usually people don't brag around with what they created. I met one for which I know for sure. For others I don't know for sure. You can verify what one has or does not have in the astral where true nature of person is displayed by default. There are likely many peopel walking on earth which are not even aware that they have those bodies, i.e. they've created it in past lifes.
Thanks Stan, understand though, we're not talking about 'bragging' here, but about establishing bona fides that lend some measure of credibility to unusual claims. The man who claims to have a better, non-carburetor type internal combustion engine will not only be asked to present, perhaps, his automotive engineering degree but his better, new and improved, fuel injected microprocessor controlled engine as well... and folks will want to see it make a few laps around the track as a sort of proof in the pudding. It is not about bragging. It is a practical consideration. Is this guy for real?... or is he just blowing hot air?
Now... I have been to the astral more than a few times and I am pretty sure that it is NOT "where true nature of person is displayed by default"... :lol: :lol: :lol: ... not by a long shot. :wink: Not that I am any expert or anything, but from what I have seen, the VAST majority of humanity lacks even the most primitive faculties required to make that sort of distinction and/or exercise that level of discrimination upon entry into the Astral Realm. The most untalented, clumsy, club-fisted astral stage shows are way more than enough to make true believers out of the common garden variety, pseudo-aspirants here on planet Earth who happen to stumble into that realm the first few (dozen) times.
If you, "met one for which I know for sure", I would like to know... how did you make that determination?
(this is a really important question)
And then back to Monroe.
You mentioned 'wasting' energy on orgasms and such. I have heard of this sort of thing before. I mentioned the Taoist immortals in this respect. But you also mentioned Robert Monroe reaching the "Ultimate Destination"... yet, clearly -- he enjoyed a regular, loving and orgasmic relationship with his beloved wife throughout their time together... and still, he made Masterful progress and attained a high state of awareness and ability.
Whaddup wi' dat?!
I mean... he didn't mention anything about how unusual sexual practices were necessary for getting from point A to point B...? ... On the contrary, he came right out and said plainly and clearly that it was just a physical thing, nothing else.
:?
Quote from: stan on August 16, 2011, 07:21:49
Btw. thanks for posting that link. i will check out some of those meditation techniques. So you say that by living by that kind of way you reached those high planes (Atmic etc.)?
No.
I didn't say that.
To know if solar bodes are real, and to know if someone has them, you can either investigate about it in the astral, or if you have some faculties you could get vague understanding about it here as well. How I found out about it was due to some experiences I had combined. In the end it's really up to you to either reject it or to try and look into it when out of body.
Astral plane is by nature energetic plane, and intentions and spirit's energies are easier to felt since there is no physical shield which could prevent emanations of those energies. There is also a matter of closing ones own emanations but this requires effort and it's not a natural state in the astral. It's kind of strange that you reacted the way you did to this claim since you say that you have been in astral more than a few times.
QuoteBut you also mentioned Robert Monroe reaching the "Ultimate Destination"... yet, clearly -- he enjoyed a regular, loving and orgasmic relationship with his beloved wife throughout their time together... and still, he made Masterful progress and attained a high state of awareness and ability.
Did you concluded that he had orgasmic sex because of those two passeges you posted?
I didn't said that Monroe reached the "ultimate" destination. I said he was enabled to travel there because he merged with his I-There. Big difference.
QuoteI mean... he didn't mention anything about how unusual sexual practices were necessary for getting from point A to point B...? ... On the contrary, he came right out and said plainly and clearly that it was just a physical thing, nothing else.
As I said in my previous posts, he was exception when it comes to spiritual development because of the number of human lifes he had. His egos were eliminated in a special way through tests in the astral. And besides, we don't know what he did and what he didn't created in his previous lifes.
In regards to what you said about "physical thing", I have already explained in previous posts about the difference between sexual attraction and lust.
Can you elaborate what did you meant in regards to visiting high planes in relation to Yoga you practiced?
Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 05:25:20
To know if solar bodes are real, and to know if someone has them, you can either investigate about it in the astral, or if you have some faculties you could get vague understanding about it here as well. How I found out about it was due to some experiences I had combined. In the end it's really up to you to either reject it or to try and look into it when out of body.
I did not ask if Solar Bodies are real (although that may be a good question to ask, but I have seen vague references to this type of thing in other venues, so I am ready to admit that there is 'something' going on behind the matter). I had two questions;
1. Have you met anyone with a Solar Body?
2. How could you tell?
You say you met one person. You made only a hand waving, smoke blowing reply about the astral in this regard. I would really like a clear, straightforward reply on this. People make claims about things like solar bodies and amazing abilities so often but whenever I press for details it becomes obvious that the claimant really has no idea what he is talking about. He is usually just regurgitating something that he read in a book.
The typical non-reply is "you can check this out yourself in the astral" -- which is a dead giveaway that the claim is just another fawning disciple's effort at advertising his favorite guru's cult. I have seen this over and over again. Those who really know what they are talking about can make very clear, lucid, objective replies to these questions.
[edit; and please don't get me wrong here. I don't have a problem with gurus and cults for the most part. In fact, I am always on the lookout for a good one that I might join. I like the new learning and camaraderie, etc. :-) ... but I do find the continuous flow of unsubstantiated claims to be a little tiresome. And I have this pesky obsession with "results". All blow and no 'go' just doesn't cut it with me.]
QuoteAstral plane is by nature energetic plane, and intentions and spirit's energies are easier to felt since there is no physical shield which could prevent emanations of those energies. There is also a matter of closing ones own emanations but this requires effort and it's not a natural state in the astral. It's kind of strange that you reacted the way you did to this claim since you say that you have been in astral more than a few times.
What is strange about my reaction? I reply that way because I *do* have conscious experience in not just the astral but Higher Realms as well and thus it is a simple matter for me to discern whether a speaker knows what he is talking about.
This is just more astral foo-foo and fluff. I asked specifically how *you* made the determination. Hand waving at vague generalities is not a valid, meaningful answer. You say you met one person that you 'know' has a solar body. I ask you, specifically, *how* did you make this determination?
QuoteDid you concluded that he had orgasmic sex because of those two passeges you posted?
No. It is just reasonable conjecture based on the fact that he presented himself as a typical westerner, married and in a normal relationship. To presume that he was NOT having normal orgasmic sex would require that you have some evidence to indicate such. To claim that this engineer and businessman in the USA in the 1950's who was completely clueless about his spontaneous OBEs was somehow practicing "White Tantra" and Alchemy is, frankly, absurd. Based on the data provided in Monroe's books it is apparent that Monroe reached this "ultimate destination" (your words :wink: ) all the while enjoying a regular, sexually active and orgasmic relationship with his wife.
QuoteI didn't said that Monroe reached the "ultimate" destination. I said he was enabled to travel there because he merged with his I-There. Big difference.
Stan, you *did* say that;
QuoteYou might have read Monroe's last book. There he went thrrough similar process where, once he became one with his I-There (large part of Higher Self), he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination.
:?
QuoteAs I said in my previous posts, he was exception when it comes to spiritual development because of the number of human lifes he had. His egos were eliminated in a special way through tests in the astral. And besides, we don't know what he did and what he didn't created in his previous lifes.
If his egos were eliminated in a "special" way... what is the "regular" or standard way? I know the Scientologists have an auditing procedure that they claim reduces the "heavy load".
QuoteIn regards to what you said about "physical thing", I have already explained in previous posts about the difference between sexual attraction and lust.
Can you elaborate what did you meant in regards to visiting high planes in relation to Yoga you practiced?
Well, yes, you explained about the difference between sex and lust but it did not really make much sense. I quoted Monroe exactly. His point was clear. Your ruminations about lust did not make a relevant point. Monroe apparently had a normal sexual relationship and he stated outright that it was just a 'physical thing'. Now, if you want to say there is more to sex and Inner Growth (via Tantra/Alchemy) than that you will have to come up with a better example than Monroe because his example serves only to contradict your claim... in a very big way.
Regarding visiting high planes I merely mentioned that my experience is contrary to your claims and you asked for detail on my method and I reported my Yoga history. Unless you ask a specific question I do not know what to say. I followed that fasting, meditation, journaling, etc. regime for many, many years. I gave you the exact name, Surat Shabd Yoga and I posted a link for further reading. If you have a specific question I might be able to home in on what it is you are really curious about.
Quote
You say you met one person. You made only a hand waving, smoke blowing reply about the astral in this regard. I would really like a clear, straightforward reply on this. People make claims about things like solar bodies and amazing abilities so often but whenever I press for details it becomes obvious that the claimant really has no idea what he is talking about.
Did it ever occurred to you that details from my experience might be personal and not something i'd like to share with everyone? And that I cannot extract just the part you are asking without making personal things known too?
Quote
No. It is just reasonable conjecture based on the fact that he presented himself as a typical westerner, married and in a normal relationship. To presume that he was NOT having normal orgasmic sex would require that you have some evidence to indicate such. To claim that this engineer and businessman in the USA in the 1950's who was completely clueless about his spontaneous OBEs was somehow practicing "White Tantra" and Alchemy is, frankly, absurd.
1950's is when he wrote his first book and when he had very limited knowledge. That spans over period of 10 years and he didn't refrained from regular sex back then. I was referring to time spans when he wrote second and third book (when he knew much more).
Quote
Based on the data provided in Monroe's books it is apparent that Monroe reached this "ultimate destination" (your words :wink: ) all the while enjoying a regular, sexually active and orgasmic relationship with his wife.
Alright, if that makes you more at ease ;) I do advise looking into it though, if your goal is to reach something above averege. One year of universal esoteric practice is enough for you to KNOW what I'm telling you about.
Quote
Stan, you *did* say that;
I said "enabled", not "reached". Read the quote again.
Quote
If his egos were eliminated in a "special" way... what is the "regular" or standard way?
Standard way is to eliminate them from moment to moment, in daily life, as they surface.
Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 12:09:01
Did it ever occurred to you that details from my experience might be personal and not something i'd like to share with everyone? And that I cannot extract just the part you are asking without making personal things known too?
I am not asking for personal details. If you claim to be able to drive a car there are certain very general observations you can make to show this. You do not have to tell me what kind of music you might listen to while driving or any other personal matters. Just simple objective statements that demonstrate how you evaluated whether someone else had this Solar Body thing.
Quote1950's is when he wrote his first book and when he had very limited knowledge. That spans over period of 10 years and he didn't refrained from regular sex back then. I was referring to time spans when he wrote second and third book (when he knew much more).
Nothing he said in any of his books indicated to me that he was practicing anything other than a normal regular sexual relationship with his wife. Can you provide quotes that indicate otherwise?
QuoteAlright, if that makes you more at ease ;) I do advise looking into it though, if your goal is to reach something above averege. One year of universal esoteric practice is enough for you to KNOW what I'm telling you about.
It is not a matter of being at ease. Nothing I said implied that I was intent upon comfort or ease. Why did you say that? I mentioned it because it indicates that your claim is bogus. What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about? One year isn't really a very long time in esoteric School terms. I would be willing to make that effort if specific gains could be realized.
QuoteI said "enabled", not "reached". Read the quote again.
Good grief! What a ridiculous nit-pik. "Reached" is a valid and accurate simplification of "enabled to travel to" a 'destination'. You said, "he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination". How is that NOT consistent with "reached"? ??
QuoteStandard way is to eliminate them from moment to moment, in daily life, as they surface.
Again :wink:, do you know of people who practice this standard exercise? Does it work? and how do you know it works? (I am very results oriented).
Quote
I am not asking for personal details. If you claim to be able to drive a car there are certain very general observations you can make to show this. You do not have to tell me what kind of music you might listen to while driving or any other personal matters. Just simple objective statements that demonstrate how you evaluated whether someone else had this Solar Body thing.
I pondered over how to tell you what happened during those experiences and I can't find a way how to do it without including personal details. Objective demonstration is entangled with personal details.
Quote
Nothing he said in any of his books indicated to me that he was practicing anything other than a normal regular sexual relationship with his wife. Can you provide quotes that indicate otherwise?
No, he didn't make a public statement that he was refraining from orgasm. His books also don't deal with HOW to spiritually develop. He only mentions what one needs to do to break free from Earth. But there are many clues about deeper nature of development. For example, he realized in second book that the urge for sex is hindrance for exploring when out of body. He used "not now, later" approach to neutralise it. Then when he saw the sex pile he said that the memory of what happened there will from now on be enough to neutralise that urge. Also in second book, ED told BB how all humans are stuck to Earth because they got addicted to things which comes with it (thoughts, emotions etc.) and how in order for them to break free of it, they need to climb out (he used similar term). Those who practice esoteric teachings know that lust is the greatest addiction of all those thoughts and emotions, and they also know what happens when one has orgasm.
QuoteIt is not a matter of being at ease. Nothing I said implied that I was intent upon comfort or ease. Why did you say that? I mentioned it because it indicates that your claim is bogus.
It looked to me like you hold on to those two passages you quoted, as a mean to justify yourself to yourself that orgasms are not hindrance to development.
QuoteWhat exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about? One year isn't really a very long time in esoteric School terms. I would be willing to make that effort if specific gains could be realized.
Universal esoteric practice is a universal way of development. By studying religions and scriptures of ancient cultures such as Mayas, Incas, Egyptians etc., one sees that they all speak of one and universal way of development.
Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P. Hall is a compilation of that demonstration. In more modern times, people who dedicated their lifes to make teachings available to others are Helena Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Samael Aun Weor, Belzebuub etc. (Apparently Carl Jung and Rudolf Steiner have a lot of esoteric practices in their books but I haven't yet read their books so I can't tell).
One year is enough to see significant changes if you put this work as your top priority. There are three main keys, I only practice first (elimination of egos) and have seen tangible result after a year. Someone who practice both that and alchemy (second key) is likely to see even more.
QuoteGood grief! What a ridiculous nit-pik. "Reached" is a valid and accurate simplification of "enabled to travel to" a 'destination'. You said, "he was enabled to travel to the "ultimate" destination". How is that NOT consistent with "reached"? ??
Lol, well to some "reached" means "to attain permanently or for a longer period of time".
QuoteAgain :wink:, do you know of people who practice this standard exercise? Does it work? and how do you know it works? (I am very results oriented).
Yes, I practice it, and know others who do too. Avarege human has very tiny percent of his consciousness available. Most of his consciousness is trapped in egos. The more egos you eliminate, the more consciousness you rescue from it and that rescued consciousness merges with consciousness you have available. In this way consciousness increases in size and that is a very tangible result. It's also very tangible when you see that you are more and more free from anger, fear, pride, greed, lust etc.
Quote from: stan on August 17, 2011, 15:35:00
I pondered over how to tell you what happened during those experiences and I can't find a way how to do it without including personal details. Objective demonstration is entangled with personal details.
That's too bad then. I am left to conclude that you merely read about this condition somewhere and you took it on faith to be true. I mean, you do not claim to personally have a Solar Body and you can only report of knowing one person who does... but you can't describe how you know this to be true. I think the inability to report objectively on the experience without being able to separate 'personal' details is a defense mechanism, subconscious or otherwise.
QuoteNo, he didn't make a public statement that he was refraining from orgasm. His books also don't deal with HOW to spiritually develop. He only mentions what one needs to do to break free from Earth. But there are many clues about deeper nature of development.
He mentioned nothing about refraining from orgasm. Nothing. Not openly or directly, and not even in a vague reference. Those who are trying to claim that orgasm hinders Inner Spiritual Growth need to avoid the subject of Robert Monroe because his work is a glaring refutation of such a claim and is a testimony to how irrelevant orgasms are to Spiritual Growth.
QuoteIt looked to me like you hold on to those two passages you quoted, as a mean to justify yourself to yourself that orgasms are not hindrance to development.
I am not trying to justify anything because I do not have to justify anything here. I am not the one who claimed that orgasms were detrimental to Spiritual growth. You did. *You* are the one who needs to justify the unusual claim that you made. So far your score is a great big goose egg. :-P
QuoteUniversal esoteric practice is a universal way of development. By studying religions and scriptures of ancient cultures such as Mayas, Incas, Egyptians etc., one sees that they all speak of one and universal way of development. Secret Teachings of all Ages by Manly P. Hall is a compilation of that demonstration. In more modern times, people who dedicated their lifes to make teachings available to others are Helena Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, Samael Aun Weor, Belzebuub etc. (Apparently Carl Jung and Rudolf Steiner have a lot of esoteric practices in their books but I haven't yet read their books so I can't tell).
Just more ambiguous hand waving. That doesn't answer the question, "What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about?" I happen to own Manly P. Hall's
Secret Teachings of all Ages and I have read much of it. I also own Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine and have read much of it. I also own many books by Gurdjieff and his followers and I met weekly with neo-Gurdjieffian Aspirants for over a year. (Gurdjieff had lots of full orgasmic sex). I have read several books by Samael Aun Weor and even spent a year or so studying and participating on the Glorian discussion forum before they shut it down. I posted frequently there (also as 'Rudolph', fyi) and I was temp-banned for asking tough questions which they labeled as 'disrespectful'. ( I wanted to know how Samael managed to father at least 6 children from at least three different women without ever having an orgasm... four of them with his main non-orgasmic 'alchemy' partner...and at least one with one of his later concubines...?...the Glorian Teachers openly admitted that Samael had several extra-marital 'alchemy' sex partners even though that was strictly forbidden according to his earlier writings). :lol: :lol:
I always got a kick outta the true believers there who replied, "it could happen".
Yeah, right.... :lol:
QuoteOne year is enough to see significant changes if you put this work as your top priority. There are three main keys, I only practice first (elimination of egos) and have seen tangible result after a year. Someone who practice both that and alchemy (second key) is likely to see even more.
I was asking for specific results. What *specifically* does a year of this practice provide? What *specifically* does adding more 'keys' to the practice result in? If the results are "tangible" it should be a simple matter to say what they are. (Why is it always like pulling teeth, trying to get those who make these claims to superior esoteric practice actually get specific?...maybe give a real example or two??).
QuoteThat's too bad then. I am left to conclude that you merely read about this condition somewhere and you took it on faith to be true.
You can conclude whatever you wish to conclude.
QuoteHe mentioned nothing about refraining from orgasm. Nothing. Not openly or directly, and not even in a vague reference. Those who are trying to claim that orgasm hinders Inner Spiritual Growth need to avoid the subject of Robert Monroe because his work is a glaring refutation of such a claim and is a testimony to how irrelevant orgasms are to Spiritual Growth.
It's pointless to go further with Monroe because you are neglecting all points and hints I mentioned to you, even from those passage you quoted from him. If you want to believe that orgasms did not prevented Monroe to reach spiritual mastery, that's fine. If you want to have your own experience of what lust is and what concequences orgasm brings, that's fine too.
QuoteThat doesn't answer the question, "What exactly is this "universal esoteric practice" and by what criteria would I be able to "KNOW" what you are telling me about?"
I briefly described this universal way of development, which consist of dying to egos, practicing alchemy and helping others. You would know what I'm talking about by applying those techniques, as I already mentioned in previous posts.
QuoteI happen to own Manly P. Hall's Secret Teachings of all Ages and I have read much of it. I also own Blavatsky's Secret Doctrine and have read much of it.
Great. There are other great readings such as Nag Hammadi scriptures and Bhagavad Gita, if you are interested.
QuoteI also own many books by Gurdjieff and his followers and I met weekly with neo-Gurdjieffian Aspirants for over a year. (Gurdjieff had lots of full orgasmic sex).
Alright, and what did you hear that made you conclude that Gurdjieff had lots of orgasmic sex?
QuoteI wanted to know how Samael managed to father at least 6 children from at least three different women without ever having an orgasm... four of them with his main non-orgasmic 'alchemy' partner...and at least one with one of his later concubines...?the Glorian Teachers openly admitted that Samael had several extra-marital 'alchemy' sex partners even though that was strictly forbidden according to his earlier writings.
It's not really strictly forbbiden. It's more that love is the keypoint in order for alchemy to work, and love develops in a stable relationship.
In regards how he could have children without orgasms, there are many factors involved how that could happen: He might have some of children before he started with alchemy. He might have got too close to orgasm and couldn't stop it. He and she might have asked Higher Self/Being to guide semen (some semen is always lost even without orgasm) to the womb. He might have had a partner who was not into spirituality and alchemy, and due to her aburpt sexual movememnt he reached too close to orgasm and couldn't prevent it. Lots of potential variables.
QuoteWhat *specifically* does a year of this practice provide?
As I said in previous post, death of the egos provide increase of consciousness and decrease of egos. How much you benefit from it is entirely up to your efforts. Details? Your consciousness increases in size which expand your visual perception. It's not that you see details which are miles away, it's more about perceiving expansion of environment around you. Just like being in a huge factory hall which has very dimmed lights. Then as the light increases you start seeing more and more of what is around you in that factory.
You also start to see more when you look into material world and its objects - you see its illusionary nature, its supstance. This perception increases as your consciousness grows. Also, the more conscious you are in physical, the more conscious you are in astral.
When it comes to decrease of egos, you know it because egos start to have less and less grip upon you. For example, say you work intensely on anger, then after a while you find yourself in situation in which you always react with anger, but this time you are much more detached frrom it, and it doesnt have such grip upon you. Anger is still there, but not in a form where it takes control over you.
What *specifically* does adding more 'keys' to the practice result in?As I said in previous posts, I don't practice alchemy (second key) so I don't know what it results in, only what I heard it does. Results which I already told you many times now ;) are: higher bodies, psychic faculties, incarnation of higher parts of the Being etc.
Third and final key is helping others spiritually. We have to help others so that we are helped in return.
P.S. Since huge part of this disscusion is based on your questioning of what say, would be nice if in future you would process what I say in my posts and continue asking questions based on that.
Popcorn anyone? :-D
Quote from: stan on August 18, 2011, 04:44:27
You can conclude whatever you wish to conclude.
Of course. But to be more exact, I will conclude what facts, logic and a disciplined intellect lead me to conclude. All of these are usually tossed out early on by those seeking to be lost in a cult mentality.
QuoteIt's pointless to go further with Monroe because you are neglecting all points and hints I mentioned to you, even from those passage you quoted from him. If you want to believe that orgasms did not prevented Monroe to reach spiritual mastery, that's fine. If you want to have your own experience of what lust is and what concequences orgasm brings, that's fine too.
Not only is it NOT pointless but completely on topic and meaningful. Monroe is a good example of how wrong your main premise is. You made no valid points concerning Monroe's writing and your "hints" were just grasping at straws, at best -- there was NOTHING in the quotes I gave that supported you claim about orgasms. NOTHING. Only those lost in a cult mentality could see the opposite of what is truly sitting directly before them. A simple case of denial.
QuoteI briefly described this universal way of development, which consist of dying to egos, practicing alchemy and helping others. You would know what I'm talking about by applying those techniques, as I already mentioned in previous posts.
You explained nothing about those things. You merely did some hand waving by mentioning some nebulous 'universal' way and 'egos' and making unsubstantiated claims about what you imagine they do. This is typical of those lost in cult-think. They accept out of hand what they read in a book or hear from the 'master's' lips and suspend disbelief and never pause to evaluate if it really is true or not.
QuoteGreat. There are other great readings such as Nag Hammadi scriptures and Bhagavad Gita, if you are interested.
Heh. I own the hardback edition of the Nag Hammadi too and enjoyed it very much. I have many volumes of the Gita as well. 8-)
QuoteAlright, and what did you hear that made you conclude that Gurdjieff had lots of orgasmic sex?
I told you that I read not just his books but also those of many of his followers. The females were open about his sexual activity and made reference to the multiple children running around the grounds of his Institute who obviously displayed uniquely Gurdjieffian DNA characteristics. :wink:
Read, The Work Life and Unforgotten Fragments by Beryl Pogson for more detail. Also try Kathleen Speath, Kathryn Hulme... The last two are probably out of print though.
QuoteIt's not really strictly forbbiden. It's more that love is the keypoint in order for alchemy to work, and love develops in a stable relationship.
In regards how he could have children without orgasms, there are many factors involved how that could happen: He might have some of children before he started with alchemy. He might have got too close to orgasm and couldn't stop it. He and she might have asked Higher Self/Being to guide semen (some semen is always lost even without orgasm) to the womb. He might have had a partner who was not into spirituality and alchemy, and due to her aburpt sexual movememnt he reached too close to orgasm and couldn't prevent it. Lots of potential variables.
Another good example of Cult-think, Stan. "not really strictly forbidden"...??... just sorta, kinda? I read some of Samael's work and extra-marital affairs are definitely forbidden. And it is/was presented as such to new aspirants. And now I have to wonder about how honest you are being here. I think you know full well that he had four children with his main alchemy partner who was supposedly 'expert'. And the Glorian folks admitted to at least one more child born to a special Alchemy partner when he got tired of his old one. They even admit to numerous mistresses at that time. The blatant hypocrisy in all this is undeniable. And your reply strains credulity. C'mon! ... maybe one child ... but SIX! or more? ... get real. And according to the Doctrine, for a Master to even have an accidental orgasm means a complete loss of progress on the Path. Right?
But for those lost in a cloud of cult-think these issues are glossed over and quickly stuffed into the "deep-denial" folder in a dark place of the brain. :|
QuoteAs I said in previous post, death of the egos provide increase of consciousness and decrease of egos. How much you benefit from it is entirely up to your efforts. Details? Your consciousness increases in size which expand your visual perception. It's not that you see details which are miles away, it's more about perceiving expansion of environment around you. Just like being in a huge factory hall which has very dimmed lights. Then as the light increases you start seeing more and more of what is around you in that factory.
You also start to see more when you look into material world and its objects - you see its illusionary nature, its supstance. This perception increases as your consciousness grows. Also, the more conscious you are in physical, the more conscious you are in astral.
That's not detail, Stan. That is self delusion. What you say, "about perceiving expansion of environment around you" is claimed by most all these meditation groups and it is true to some degree for anyone who practices any kind of real meditation and daily 'awareness' exercises. There is nothing special about that.
I have personally communicated with honest cult members who openly admit now, after many years of practice of this Death of the Egos that they have really have made no significant progress at all. And when I visit the Forums for these Samael Alchemy School groups it is clear that almost no one is making progress. The total meltdown of one group recently was a joke! Senior members, even teachers... nearly all fell into a state of open despair... the whining and complaining... the anger, hurt feelings... open expression of aggressive intent and revenge... it was laughable! A giant EGO-Fest! extraordinaire! :lol:
On several fronts across oceans, I participated in forums in both English and Spanish and what I saw was a complete lack of any sort of real progress. Very few are able to get a conscious OBE on a regular basis and "understanding" is rare. Most display common, garden variety levels of ignorance. Though some do show amazing ability to quote from Samael's books.
QuoteWhen it comes to decrease of egos, you know it because egos start to have less and less grip upon you. For example, say you work intensely on anger, then after a while you find yourself in situation in which you always react with anger, but this time you are much more detached frrom it, and it doesnt have such grip upon you. Anger is still there, but not in a form where it takes control over you.
As I said above, it became clear that even senior members let anger take complete control for months on end. It was ridiculously obvious. It was an open display of failure.
QuoteP.S. Since huge part of this disscusion is based on your questioning of what say, would be nice if in future you would process what I say in my posts and continue asking questions based on that.
What an arrogant and condescending tone to take, Stan. Just more cult-think... I have objectively processed every word you have said to me. The fact that I reject your "hints" and ambiguous hand waving means to you that I am not listening. But in reality, I am looking for results. I have evaluated your claim on its merits. And I find that there are none.
What is good and proper for one person to make progress along a particular spiritual path is not for another.
What may seem to one to be very strict difficult discipline is for another the simple joy of living on a specific level. There are levels of acheivement along the Path and there are different tasks and lessons on each level.
In any case, the simple fact is, your so called Lower Chakras have alot in common with the animal world and your Higher Chakras are reflections of a level higher than the animal world.
Consider that the more a person relates his or her Identity with the higher levels the less dramatic the pull of the lower urges.
Also, as I stated before, what is called the creative energy in a human is not just sexual energy. There is ONE energy that takes many forms. Sexual activity is an act of generation and also of Unity. The urge to unite. Can you safely assume that all humans experience sexual union the same way? Can you imagine that a person could easily use ALL of there generative/imaginative energy in expression other than sexual generation? In order to do that you have to admit that where you are now is not the summit of knowledge on the topic.
Assume for a moment that you are earning 1500.00 a month and you want to buy a house. Fine, but if you spend all your earnings on immediate pleasures rather than saving for a down payment and establishing good credit you will not have the wherewithall to buy that house, you have to give something up. You have to change how you spend your earnings.
You save the earnings instead of going out for entertainment every night, or what ever you have been Spending it on. One person saves and buys a fine house. Another never gets his/her plan off the ground because they spend to much. Another person not only saved but prospered and multiplied the saved earnings and not built a special house and much more.
Can you see the correlation?
Not only that but some people might have learned these lessons in prevous lifetimes so it is easier for them to take the generative energy to higher levels. Hey, a child might use a stepstool to reach the sink to brush their teeth but when they are older and taller they no longer need a ladder and they brush their teeth gladly. Can you get the drift?
Some Alchemists had/have children and some did not, some are completed alchemists and some are not.
You might well think that all acts of union are holy, from the smallest of the subatomic particles to the largest star masses and even amonst living creatures including us, not matter what your path is or where you are on that path.
Quote from: gdo on August 18, 2011, 21:08:12
Can you see the correlation?
Yes. But I would like to ask a few questions.
Do you practice sexual Alchemy?
If so, what School or branch? and...
How long have you been practicing?
QuoteNot only that but some people might have learned these lessons in prevous lifetimes so it is easier for them to take the generative energy to higher levels. Hey, a child might use a stepstool to reach the sink to brush their teeth but when they are older and taller they no longer need a ladder and they brush their teeth gladly. Can you get the drift?
Some Alchemists had/have children and some did not, some are completed alchemists and some are not.
Of course, the drift is simple.
This brings up another question; what is a 'completed' alchemist?
For some reason there are many people who like to comment on discussion topics in very general and ambiguous terms. For those who only dabble and just want a surface overview this is fine. But for those who are intent on making real progress this is lacking in substance. I think it is much more helpful and useful to be very specific and give exact instructions that produce a verifiable outcome.
The claims made on some venues about this Sexual Alchemy practice are pretty amazing. I read a summary decades ago from one Surat Shabd teacher that there was at one time, a valid and effective Tantric/sexual Alchemy School and Method that produced valuable results in the Eternal sense, only that lineage died out and there were no longer any qualified instructors. So far what I have seen is consistent with this assertion.
But I am willing to give any claims to the contrary a fair evaluation.
QuoteWhat may seem to one to be very strict difficult discipline is for another the simple joy of living on a specific level. There are levels of acheivement along the Path and there are different tasks and lessons on each level.
Good point gdo. I think it has a lot to do with boundaries which everyone subconsciously set to oneself. Often it's a matter of being conditioned by society, religion etc. when growing up. It's not uncommon that when people pass such boundaries that they are happy that they did, because they see things further and with higher perspective. Similarly how a person who overcomes a fear of astral is happy that they did because they see potential that astral holds for them. Though like you said, being more or less ready is also influenced by past life experiences and some other things.
Rudy,
A completed alchemist is an individual who has no further 'karma' as most people think of it, and more. These individuals have no need to incarnate as they are identified with the Life principle itself. They can and do incarnate but not out of necessity.
As far as the term sexual alchemy, there is really one Alchemy. Alchemy, as does all spiritual paths, use the creative energy to turn the base metals of personality into spiritual and physical gold.
Do I practice Alchemy? Yes.
What branch? Alchemy is a term that refers to the Western (European) schools and traditions, which are slightly different from Eastern Schools. The goals and results are the same.
I do not think I was general or ambiguous, in fact, I thought was I posted was plainly stated.
Personal Instruction is available, but not in a public forum and, as I mentioned before, what is good and proper for one person is not for another.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate what you have been involved in in these regards.
I can suggest to anyone who is interested to read the Fama Fraternitatis. Then also read what you can find authored by known Alchemists. Some of it will be easy reading and some will at first be difficult. Let it soak in.
Quote from: gdo on August 19, 2011, 15:48:47
As far as the term sexual alchemy, there is really one Alchemy. Alchemy, as does all spiritual paths, use the creative energy to turn the base metals of personality into spiritual and physical gold.
Ok. But I was mostly curious about the peculiar form of Samaelian sexual Alchemy that was just recently being discussed. The standard Rosicrucian form is a separate matter in my mind. (for good reasons)
QuoteDo I practice Alchemy? Yes.
What branch? Alchemy is a term that refers to the Western (European) schools and traditions, which are slightly different from Eastern Schools. The goals and results are the same.
I do not think I was general or ambiguous, in fact, I thought was I posted was plainly stated.
It is very possible to plainly make ambiguous or general comments.
Among the Western Schools there are many various branches and I am familiar with a whole bunch of them. One or two particular words that mean little to the average man on the street would clearly identify your School to me in no uncertain fashion. Just the super-secret modus operandi alone cuts the possible candidate field in half for me. 8-)
QuotePersonal Instruction is available, but not in a public forum and, as I mentioned before, what is good and proper for one person is not for another.
But of course.
QuotePerhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate what you have been involved in in these regards.
You first.
:wink:
QuoteI can suggest to anyone who is interested to read the Fama Fraternitatis. Then also read what you can find authored by known Alchemists. Some of it will be easy reading and some will at first be difficult. Let it soak in.
All the cloak n' dagger is too much for me. I agree with Crowley on this point. You could blabber away on a crowded street corner, any and all your brotherhood secrets and not only would most folks completely ignore you but even those mildly interested would not have a clue what it is you were talking about.
The Secret is safe.
I do not know what you mean by super secret at all. I have not tried to hide anything at all.
As far as reading the Fama and the early Alchemists, if it seems like blabber to you, then ok. It does seem like that to many people at first. So do many other types of writings.
The topic of discussion was Sex and religion. Not bona fides.
Did the analogy of saving money make sense to you? Can you see that there is a similarity between what you create mentally and the power that we use for generation?
When you meditate you are using that same power.
Quote from: gdo on August 19, 2011, 20:27:00
I do not know what you mean by super secret at all. I have not tried to hide anything at all.
Really?
I asked you outright, directly and in a straightforward manner, Do you practice sexual Alchemy?
If so, what School or branch? and...
How long have you been practicing?
You replied ambiguously and answered none of the questions.
QuoteAs far as reading the Fama and the early Alchemists, if it seems like blabber to you, then ok. It does seem like that to many people at first. So do many other types of writings.
I did not say it seemed like "blabber" (as a noun) to me - I used the word as a verb. Are you going to try to play word games with me?
QuoteThe topic of discussion was Sex and religion. Not bona fides.
The topic of discussion was sexual alchemy. The Subject heading is "sex and religion". No one asked you for bona fides... just personal history with the subject matter. (more childish wordplay).
QuoteDid the analogy of saving money make sense to you? Can you see that there is a similarity between what you create mentally and the power that we use for generation?
good grief...
What was it I was saying a few weeks or months ago here?... one of the problems commonly seen among those who begin the esoteric work is, "delusions of grandeur".
What is your point gdo?
I was recently asking Stan to back up his claims about orgasms and wasting energy...
?
What does your recent contribution have to do with the price of tea in China?
:?
C'mon guys, let's try to work together here. :)
A tip... step back once in a while, we're all friends here. ;)
I think Rudy likes to be confrontational rather than stick to the original topic.
Anyone reading this series of posts can take what they want from all of the information posted here and make what they want of it.
If, for any reason, some one disagrees with what I have posted, that is fine. Everything I stated you can look up, or disbelieve. I was not offering HOW TO information or personal solutions any one persons alchemical work, merely entering the discussion upon seeing some personal discord.
The simple fact is that each person has to find their way in spiritual development and that each of us is different enough that one rule may be generally applicable rather than specific.
Anyone and everyone uses the generative power everyday. That power has different levels of use. While it is being used for one thing, obviously it cannot also be used for another. You cannot use a hammer to pound a nail and at the same time use the claw to pull a nail.
The easiest and most approachable transforming technique for the generative power for most people has been Meditation. Ultimately each person has to anwer to his or herself on what is effective and also what is not. What is strict and uncomfortable and even painfull for one person is not for another. Somewhere between total and complete sexual abstinence and moderate normal restriction is a path for most spiritual aspirants.
Rudolph, after your last post directed to me, I figured it's pointless to continue further, but I will refer to one more thing you posted there.
You said how you didn't see any changes in people using Samael's method of dying to egos. The elimination Samael taught is based on understanding an ego in fullness and then once this is done, one should direct a petition to one's own Being to eliminate it. This version of technique, in itself, is not beneficial for progress because an ego such as fear for example, has many thousands of manifestation, and it would take a lifetime to understand it fully.
Egos also manifest at every moment, and if one doesn't eliminate them, they just feed and get stronger. Rabolu, his student who raeched mastery, said that none of Samael's students were truly eliminating egos, so he pondered over what Samael meant when he said "we need to die from moment to moment", and realized that one should actually apply elimination every time an ego surface. Then Rabolu's student Belzebuub, who also reached mastery, revolutionized this even more and combined this new version of death from moment to moment, with meditation on an ego. Usually all groups that follow Samael's teachings only do meditation on an ego, and as you may noticed on Glorian forums, people there react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment).
If you are interested, you can read more about this and many other points that were raised in this discussion, in Belzebuub's book Secret Knowledge, Hidden Wisdom. The book is now unavailable as a paperback because it will be soon released as a free ebook.
You might as well just let it go guys. Just believe in what you want because pointing out how wrong the other guy is won't make him change his mind to agree with your views, it will only do the opposite. Each one to their own. There's no right or wrong here - only individual interpretations.
Quote from: stan on August 20, 2011, 09:21:45
Rudolph, after your last post directed to me, I figured it's pointless to continue further, but I will refer to one more thing you posted there.
Thanks for the wrap up there Stan. You are a man of manners.
QuoteYou said how you didn't see any changes in people using Samael's method of dying to egos. The elimination Samael taught is based on understanding an ego in fullness and then once this is done, one should direct a petition to one's own Being to eliminate it. This version of technique, in itself, is not beneficial for progress because an ego such as fear for example, has many thousands of manifestation, and it would take a lifetime to understand it fully.
I do not think I made an evaluation about anyone else's "changes". That would be almost impossible to state with confidence. I said one honest practitioner told us that he admits that after many years of practice, he had very little in the way of improvement to show for it. He was still plagued by negative states and he could not go OBE.
I did make a general observation that I saw a veritable parade of negative states on one forum after a public site made a few minor accusations against the "master". The firestorm of negative emotion that followed was an obvious display of egos run amok and it was nearly universal. It was openly and plainly visible to all that even many years of practicing the "Three Keys" of The Death of the Egos, Sexual Alchemy, and Service to Humanity (which actually means service to Belzebuub) had done very little to advance the state of consciousness -- even among long time members and teachers. As I said, the anger, hurt feelings, aggressive tone and calls for revenge, etc. revealed just how little maturity and detachment the faithful had gained in five and even ten years of practice.
There were a few voices of reason that chimed in occasionally but they were quickly drowned out by the angry mob. I know that among the Surat Shabd Yoga groups there would have been a quick slap down on all that complaining early on, from the experienced Initiates and chelas.
I noticed how over time, the Samaelian groups are growing more and more closed and freedom of honest expression is suppressed. At Glorian and other sites there used to be open chatrooms for people to discuss their Work and progress, or lack of progress, etc. But these were shut down when discussions of topics that did the organization no favors were brought up. Both the Glorian and then the GM chatrooms were shut down and then even the open forums were closed down. I went to a Spanish (Osacar Uzcategui leader, I believe) chatroom and when the chat turned into a giant, angry Anti-Catholic bigotry party I began injecting facts and data that showed most of the comments were not true. The moderator was fine with it until I started correcting the record and then he quickly stepped in and kicked everyone off saying he had to reboot the server... heh... yeah right.... The anti-USA sentiment also bordered on outright hatred. So much for their ego death practice....
Whenever facts are introduced that make elements of the Doctrine appear less than perfection the moderators would quickly shut things down, lock and even delete threads. I found this to be common on both the Gnostic Movement and the Glorian sites. This is not how Sincere Seekers of Truth behave.
I brought up issues and questions that often caused a stir on these forums and I was given repeated warnings to back off. In the GM classes Senior Teachers even would simply make up a bald faced lie when it suited them in order to "control" the information flow. This is NOT how enlightened Disciples behave. In fact, it is a sure sign of something very, very wrong among the authority channels there.
There were many questions that I had that simply were not allowed as part of any discussion;
* Samael made a prediction of cataclysmic destruction around the world (primarily in the USA :lol:) that was supposed to hit before 1980. When that didn't happen he moved it to 1999. When that didn't happen the powers that be moved it out a few more decades... what joke. [from
Rings of Alcyon -- shortly after I pointed out this discrepancy the free download for this book was removed from the server].
* I have pointed out blatant errors of historical fact in the group propaganda and provided sources to back it up but the anti-Catholic bigotry (and even anti-USA hate speech) continues unabated. A most unenlightened condition.
* Rabolu apparently abandoned his wife and small children on a little strip of dirt that he called a farm in order to pursue missionary work for Samael. This supposedly was forbidden by Samael. Men are supposed to support their families, according to Doctrine. And then Rabolu attained "mastership"...?... but ... who was his alchemy partner? How could that be? His wife was far away in another country. No one discusses these things.
* Rabolu also predicted cataclysmic destruction (also primarily in the USA :lol: :lol:) that did not happen. He even predicted that "Sea Monsters" on the bottom of the ocean, now surviving on atomic energy, would rise up and devour coastal cities. This was all supposed to happen ten or twenty years ago. Funny how *that* part of his writings never got translated into English. :-D
* After Samael's death Rabolu informed a large gathering of the faithful that a miraculously Resurrected Samael was walking around among them in his preserved Egyptian Mummy body! and he added, "Didn't you notice the man walking around here wearing a 'turban'?" only... hmmmm... Egyptians didn't wear turbans. :lol: :lol:
* Belzebuub claimed valid descent of Master lineage through Rabolu but Rabolu had expelled/excommunicated Belzebuub for megalomania and this was hidden and kept from his followers. When documents showing this were produced some unlikely stories of how "it was just a test" were spread around. ?! You gotta be kidding me! And the credulous faithful BOUGHT it! Swallowed it whole... pure Cult-Think. Their slavish loyalty to the Master borders on neurotic.
* Other charges were made and backed up with legal documents on public record but lame refutations were made with no documentation as support and the credulous disciples again, swallowed it whole. "Gosh, I am sure glad that has been cleared up"... :lol: ... nothing had been cleared up! Most of the accusations of moral, ethical and sexual impropriety were not addressed at all!
Why can't people just look at the facts objectively and deal with them. Personally none of the revelations of multiple sex partners, property transfers, donation and money mishandling, and other such soap-opera details really bothered me as much as the simple, obvious, in-your-face reality that most disciples and followers were not making significant progress. The ability to Astral Project is presented as a key tool but the inability to get a conscious OBE is nearly universal. There is constant discussion of struggling with lust, and severe reactions to eating pork ( :?:lol: :lol: ). The regular discussion that goes on appears to the objective observer to be more than a little crazy.
Why not just admit the facts and say, "so what" and move on. ? Focus on results and making progress. But they do not do that because there is very little of that going on. The focus is on the Master's amazing Astral Adventures. Here, read his book. Make donations and support the Cause.
QuoteEgos also manifest at every moment, and if one doesn't eliminate them, they just feed and get stronger. Rabolu, his student who raeched mastery, said that none of Samael's students were truly eliminating egos, so he pondered over what Samael meant when he said "we need to die from moment to moment", and realized that one should actually apply elimination every time an ego surface. Then Rabolu's student Belzebuub, who also reached mastery, revolutionized this even more and combined this new version of death from moment to moment, with meditation on an ego. Usually all groups that follow Samael's teachings only do meditation on an ego, and as you may noticed on Glorian forums, people there react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment).
That is a well presented summary, Stan. Yes, the Glorian folks do react very negatively towards Rabolu, Belzebuub and the new version of applying the death (from moment to moment). In their defense I must admit they have very knowledgeable teachers but they can be quick to anger and are often overbearing. They got very upset and downright rude and abusive when I pointed out that their exalted Tibeten Monks were celibate -- i.e. they did NOT practice sexual alchemy, so how could their practice fit with Samael's teaching? They made the most ridiculous claims that they practiced sexual alchemy in 'secret'. Yeah, right....
It is all just so absurd. Since Samael lifted much of his Doctrine from Gurdjieff they must promulgate a story that Gurdjieff practiced this odd form of sexual alchemy too. But there is nothing Gurdjieff wrote to support that claim, and Gurdjieff wrote a LOT. And there are writings that outright refute such a claim. But these facts are ignored.
Ditto the Robert Monroe shore story. The Samael Doctrine states that sexual Alchemy is absolutely required to attain Mastery. So the credulous disciples must create some scenario where that must have been practiced. Even though Samael himself had so many children it seems impossible that he was copulating without orgasm, but to do so means the Master would 'Fall' so they must make excuses or the Doctrine is revealed as false.