Sexuality vs Spirituality

[Adept_of_Light]

Dear Jilola,

Originally posted by jilola

AdeptofLight:

quote:I believe that by "our true nature" you meant our desires and needs as the human beings we are today, but those so called needs we have are not ours, but belong to our temporal Egos which are sperate from our spirits, and it is our Egos which keep us in the perception of being seperate from the whole. Remove the Ego, and you remove desires, you remove needs and all the sins that go along with fulfiling those desires and needs, what remains afterwards is our true nature in all its purity.

Jilola:

quote:
I disagree. Removing the ego from te driver's seat doesnät remove desires and it should because ddesires are what keep us moving forward. It does, however, remove the attachment and dependency on the achievement and quality of the result of pursuing those desires.
In other words while one still strives towarrd a goal there is no longer any difference between achieving the goal and not achieving it.

Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment. One who has accomplished this has reached the goal and no longer has any desires of any kind.

If one still strives toward the goal, then one still has an Ego to deal with, and so long as one has not achieved enlightenment, logically one can not TRULY know from experience the difference between achieving it and not achieving it, though even a little rational analysis of the problem of living with an Ego tells us that not having one would allow us to experience superior forms of bliss. Further, when one engages in the serious work toward enlightenment, one is capable of seeing gradual improvements in our selves and we begin to slowly experience more and more states of happiness, so the logical conclusion here is that there is indeed a difference between not engaging in the work, being on the path and actually doing the work, and having completed the work.

Cheers,
Adept of Light

[Tayesin]

This discussion is getting more and more interesting at it delves deeper, isn't it excellent.

Quote:- " Raising the kundalini ***NATURALLY***, *SAFELY* & repeatedly leads to the perfection of the self which brings our spirit closer to union with its other half (the divine self) which once united results in permanent Enlightenment which is the experience of everything and NOT *a* mere individual experience."
- by Adept

An excellent insight.  It is extremely important that any Kundalini work be done with support, either from an experienced teacher or Guides.  If raised to the Brow chakra it will re-connect you with your own 'christ-consciousness', you will experience being and knowing the entire Universe...being in Oneness.  This will bring Enlightenment.

While the awareness and energy we are open to with enlightenment will always be within our reach after such an experience,  we are not Enlightened Always.  

We are open to it, closer and able to reconnect easier, yet we are not always Enlightened from that moment on.  Enlightenment is not 'attained', it is not a trophy you will always have.  You must take on the responsibility, work with it even when you do not want to.  It may seem like a heavenly experience, and it is, but... it's responsiblity is awesome... the inner power that is now awake can be seriously overpowering.. even in a physical sense.  I would not advise it for the faint hearted


Quote :- " Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment. One who has accomplished this has reached the goal and no longer has any desires of any kind."- Adept

An ego is part of being human, and you are very right about it not being in the driver's seat.  Some think that the ego needs to be suppressed in us or we need to be egoless, rather than we ego less.  
It would seem balancing the ego is more the goal than removal.

Why would one be free of desires when enlightened ?  Desires are not just an Earthly thing.  Doesn't your heart yearn, desire, something ?  Mine still does, I desire to awaken as many people as possible.. it drives me.  Enlightenment will not take away our desires.  Old monks who devoted their lives to experiencing their divine state are a different matter to We people in the World.  Their lives are in a sense still ruled by their beliefs... the filter of their experiences and dare I say it... Asceticism is not a balanced human life in the world we came to experience.

A state of perfect Bliss by definition would have to include ego, our dark and our light.  Otherwise it is not bliss, only a poor imitation.  Our task may not be about taking our awareness to higher levels and remaining there, maybe it is about going there yes, and regularly, but learning to bring our awareness to Here and Now.  Being the great spirit we are in this life and doing it fully aware.

Love Always. []

[kiauma]

quote:To engage in sexual esoteric work is to master the accumulation and then transformation of sexual energy into spiritual energy.

As I believe I said in a previous post, a simple observation of physical sex shows two bodies attempting to unite into a single one, but in the end this is never achieved (the bodies always end up eventually separated) because typical physical sex is a very poor attempt at emulating what we subconsciously want - a divine union of our spirit with our other divine half - our higher self.

Well said.  Further, energy is moved by the tension between opposites.  Were bodies able to really unite, the 'tension between opposites' would be lost, which would be a great loss.   This is why the energy side of it must be understood and practised.

quote:Removing of the Ego from the drivers seat is the very definition of liberation or enlightenment.

Well said.  Not removing the ego - but instead not being driven by the ego.  Big difference.

quote: A state of perfect Bliss by definition would have to include ego, our dark and our light. Otherwise it is not bliss, only a poor imitation. Our task may not be about taking our awareness to higher levels and remaining there, maybe it is about going there yes, and regularly, but learning to bring our awareness to Here and Now. Being the great spirit we are in this life and doing it fully aware.

Whoe!  Now that's living large! []  Again, well said.

[narfellus]

Wow. i love you guys(and gals). What someone mentioned about a spiritual community here really meant something to me. I was raised christian but never ENJOYED church. Here, i feel at home. The words and wisdom shared here speaks to my heart more than anything i've ever experienced.

I am working toward kundalini, and i have a full understanding through personal research and purchased books as to what it means. i have a long ways to go, but that's fine.

My own sexual life is unsatisfying to me. I feel SOMEHOW that my creativity suffers for it. i am a writer by nature, telling stories is what i love more than anything, but i have noticed that when romance and sex are missing from my life, all creativity is drained away. Nothing. I am in a relationship with a woman where we are not sexually compatible. To put is simply, i'm healthy and she is not. I am adventurous and she is not. But i love her, the best friend i've ever known, so fear of loss traps me into near-celibacy. Fear cripples my creativity. I can see my own faults and mistakes and yet i let them occur.

I feel that my own sexual freedom is tied with my spiritual advancment. I have often fantasized about many sexual situations and partners, sometimes obessively. (probably neg attachments, i've had horrible problems in the past, and only recently figured out why)

Any suggestions? I would not usually be so open with my personal life and soul but i trust many of you as if i know you. []

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by narfellus

Wow. i love you guys(and gals). What someone mentioned about a spiritual community here really meant something to me. I was raised christian but never ENJOYED church. Here, i feel at home. The words and wisdom shared here speaks to my heart more than anything i've ever experienced.

I share that sentiment... I even love you Wisp, you show me where I still have room to grow.  I just had the most wonderful experience.  I went house hunting this weekend (such a difficult thing to do from out of town) and was given the opportunity to drive eight hours by myself in my husbands car while he drove the whole way with my kids... this gave me the opportunity to listen to Neale Donals Walsh's Conversations with God Book 1 without interruption.  

I am starting to understand as I think Boydster pointed out... that I am indeed growing and that thing I am searching for is the experience of the Beloved, or God.  To expereice God passionately and completely through my entire expereince.

An other thing I realized is that when I do feel LOVE for someone, I m experiencing my soul yearning to experience that too... it is God calling my soul back, the desire to expereince the Beloved through my connection with that person... I see the Beloved in that person for that is what he or she is... an individual expression of the beloved.  In the book, I had the same feelings for "the voice of God" that I have for many people who I communicate well with.  This I am starting to understand as my ability to see the Beloved in them and that experience is God calling me to God... to understand and expereince who I truly am.


Love,
Kerri

[Tayesin]

Kerri,
A very nice post.  I agree about "seeing the Beloved in them."   For me it's seeing the natural beauty, no matter how they may look at the surface.  I do see a young, vibrant and beautiful person in front of me.

I have to say, the term 'God' sits uncomfortably with me in these discussions.  Because of the connotations it holds.  We know God is not the name of a Prime Being.  We know it is a word describing a concept.  It is a tag we use, yet it does carry those very connotations with it.  In most conversations it would usually indicate some christian belief,  while I do not think you were using it in such a way Kerri.  

I'm a bit of a stickler for apt descriptions, so I tagged it the Creative Awareness.. which doesn't have the verve of 'God' but it does describe it more effectively. LOL

Love Always. []

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by Tayesin


I have to say, the term 'God' sits uncomfortably with me in these discussions.  Because of the connotations it holds.  We know God is not the name of a Prime Being...  

I'm a bit of a stickler for apt descriptions, so I tagged it the Creative Awareness.. which doesn't have the verve of 'God' but it does describe it more effectively. LOL

Love Always. []

     

You're so picky lol []

Kerri

[narfellus]

I'd say that is splitting hairs too, tayesin, but i see what you mean. []

The more i read and learn of the sex/spirit connection the more i am intrigued. i've come to understand a lot about repitition and why spirit adores it. Repitition breeds ritualistic imprint on the subsconscious. it is applicable in all aspects of life. Physically it builds and tones muscle; mentally it enhances memory and ideas; spiritually it helps us understand difficult concepts and ideals that a single thought could not convey. Sexually, the act of repitition is one of the most powerful forces given to us by spirit. The repeated friction of flesh on flesh has the power to create life. We are truly gods forgotten our divine nature.

I have a question:

I have purchased online a kundalini book translated from the notes of a deceased master. i'm only just beginning, but it includes all warnings and explanations of the process, morning rituals, yoga, meditation and mantras. I'm planning on using it in conjunction with Robert Bruce's NEW system to slowly fill my energy reservoirs.

Even at this early stage i've found that at 4:30 AM when i do the lower triad chakra exercises, i find myself sexually stimulated and often stimulate myself (no doubts as to what i mean). Is that wrong? Is that wasting raised energy, or is it normal? I feel very relaxed and calm afterward, and my energy levels stay very elevated throughout the day. I've yet to try the mantras or advanced meditation, i'm seeking a local yoga group trained in the fire serpent so that i can learn the appropriate pronunciations of the mantras (the book includes excellent details and note scales, but i still prefer someone who has experienced it).

[narfellus]

Does it make you horny Lola? Maybe i shouldn't do it naked...So, where did you get the DVD's? What I need is a way to pronunciate the mantras, they're sorta tricky, lots of yaaaaaaaaas and uuuuuummmmms and such.

[narfellus]

Well, amazon.com owns my pocketbook already, i might as well pad it some more. Kundalini here i come! Thanks for the tip, lola. And you should try it naked sometimes, it feels a little more sensual. And yes, i guess it is a sexy feeling, like you're in tune with your body in new ways, yet familiar ways. I'll pass on the bellydancing though...[]

[Lighthouse]

I bellydance too.  It is a great way of reclaiming the Divine Feminine for me... it makes me feel very sensual and powerful in my femininity... like the Goddess.  I think a lot of the spiritual/sexual link has to do with the degree to which one claims your own power as a sexual being.  I believe much of the dysfunction that revolves around sex and the spiritual life has to do with repressing our own sexual nature and therefore denying ourselves.  

I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, I don't think so but I am also reading The Woman with the Alabaster Jar which talks about Mary Magdeline being the Holy Grail (She being the chalice that held the Holy blood of Christ ... his child)   I thought between my Bellydancing and my work of reclaiming parts of myself supressed during childhood, that I had reclaimed a large degree of my Divine feminine.  Nothing has done that like reading this very well researched scholarly work by Margaret Starbird which suggests that Mary the Magdeline (Magdeline is another word for a tourch or beacon) was the Beloved Bride of Christ... I was totally not expecting the healing and transformational experience that this book has brought me.  It is almost like it awakens the Goddess in me to new heights and helps to claim myself as a sexual being beyond anything I could have possibly predicted, expected or even hoped for.

Kerri

[narfellus]

That's awesome Kerri. I think you've posted somewhere about that book, i remember seeing your name tagged to it, but i wasn't until now that i realized what you meant about MM being the Grail itself, for she was the original container of the blood of the christ. F-in A! I'm glad to hear that the book helped you touch a deeper spiritual side of your feminity. I might want to read that as well. We're all very similar, male and female really, and in the reincarnation sense we all walked both sides of the fence. I'm sure the book could glean some meanings for us all as well.

And do yoga naked!  It makes ya feel SEXY! whoo hoo!

[boydster]

quote:Originally posted by Lighthouse

 

I don't know if I mentioned it in this thread, I don't think so but I am also reading The Woman with the Alabaster Jar which talks about Mary Magdeline being the Holy Grail (She being the chalice that held the Holy blood of Christ ... his child)   I thought between my Bellydancing and my work of reclaiming parts of myself supressed during childhood, that I had reclaimed a large degree of my Divine feminine.  Nothing has done that like reading this very well researched scholarly work by Margaret Starbird which suggests that Mary the Magdeline (Magdeline is another word for a tourch or beacon) was the Beloved Bride of Christ...

Earlier in my life I knew someone who was quite accomplished at reading the akashic records in matters such as this. And this person said that the soul of Mary Magdeline was indeed the twin soul of Jesus.

She was not through with incarnating at that point though and had a number of lives after that. Her final incarnation was that of Aimee Semple McPherson who was the founder of the Foursquare Gospel church. She is said to have been very charismatic and there are stories of many, many healings which happened while she blessed people at the altar.

She is now a part of their dual soul with Jesus as an ascended being. Obviously I can't prove any of this. Please don't go there....

Kerri, I really appreciate your comments about your quality of life increasing as you learn to see and love God in everyone and everything. As you gradually see only God everywhere you look, life begins to be pretty amazing. I feel that way too.

Someone once wrote the phrase, "Drink me while I am drinking thee". It sums it up for me.

[Lighthouse]

Boyd,

quote:Someone once wrote the phrase, "Drink me while I am drinking thee". It sums it up for me.

AAAh yes, this is so true... I have felt this so strongly at times with certain people... mmmmmm.  Thank you for your tidbit about Mary being the twin soul of Jesus.  This concept is so liberating for me...It feels so right, my heart just sings with joy.  It's so difficult to see the psychological damage our cultural, societal and religious entities have done regarding the role of women and all things feminine until the healing takes place... so difficult.

Kerri

[narfellus]

quote: As you gradually see only God everywhere you look, life begins to be pretty amazing. I feel that way too.

I agree. The more open i become to God everywhere the more at peace i feel with everyone and everything, even those lashing out around them because they just don't understand.

[narfellus]

Our world society has f-ed sex up. It is abused and regarded as dirty and secretive, so most people don't know that it is for anything other than a quick jollie or starting an eight kid family. I hope future societies bring back the sacred beauty of it and teach children that it's okay and natural, rather than letting commercials and tv blare it day in and out. Good lord, they sell SHAMPOO with sex!

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by narfellus

Our world society has f-ed sex up. It is abused and regarded as dirty and secretive, so most people don't know that it is for anything other than a quick jollie or starting an eight kid family. I hope future societies bring back the sacred beauty of it and teach children that it's okay and natural, rather than letting commercials and tv blare it day in and out. Good lord, they sell SHAMPOO with sex!

Narfellus,

The reason Sex sells is becasue we are so conditioned to think it is taboo, dirty, bad, lustful, impure, etc... All of these things make us want to repress out own sexual nature and the more we push something away, the more it persists.  Have you ever noticed that if you try to deny yourself something... anything (chocolate for me) the more you crave it?  This is what we have done to our sexual nature.  We deny it consciously or subconsciously we feel we should not enjoy it or it is only appropriate within certain "moralistic rules set forth by the powers that be... whoever they are!  Therefore, since we are so busy feeling some degree of guilt for the pleasure that sex allows us, it is used as a tool for selling things because it is effective... we all want it but feel guilty for our cravings.  

Imagine how healthy we would all feel if instead of repressing our nature, we were allowing ourselves to BE the passionate, loving, sexual beings we are!  To have freedom of expression without human made value judgments.  Would that not make all the difference?

Kerri

[narfellus]

quote:Imagine how healthy we would all feel if instead of repressing our nature, we were allowing ourselves to BE the passionate, loving, sexual beings we are! To have freedom of expression without human made value judgments. Would that not make all the difference?

I actually have trouble imagining a society of sexual freedom and communication. Does it mean sex as young as someone wants it? Parental supervision, like drivers ed? Group sex in an educational setting? What kind of changes would that make to eroticism and childbirth?

I recall reading that Neale Walsch and God had similar discussions. There, God said that other Highly Evolved Beings DO have a very open, healthy outlook, without abuse, without shame of toilet behavior or odor or body shapes. It sounds great to me, but our world is so far from that right now it would take an enormous effort to change.

[Lighthouse]

quote:Originally posted by narfellus

I actually have trouble imagining a society of sexual freedom and communication. Does it mean sex as young as someone wants it? Parental supervision, like drivers ed? Group sex in an educational setting? What kind of changes would that make to eroticism and childbirth?

I recall reading that Neale Walsch and God had similar discussions. There, God said that other Highly Evolved Beings DO have a very open, healthy outlook, without abuse, without shame of toilet behavior or odor or body shapes. It sounds great to me, but our world is so far from that right now it would take an enormous effort to change.

At least it would be talked about in families and proper use would be taught... It is in the nature of the taboo that the dysfunction occurs.  We as a society are not ready for it yet but it is something that we can teach... healthy sexual attitudes.  This education would dispell the dysfunctional behaviors surrounding sex and it would not be a source of shame and guilt... there would be no need to control others with it becasue it would be seen as natural as walking.

Kerri

[narfellus]

As natural as walking...i guess it is in a way, with a little practice. It's funny that while the internet has great uses like bringing people worldwide into these forums to share information, it also propogates the sex problem to unforeseen heights. The abuse of sex on such a global scale DOES hurt human spirituality on a global scale as well. I'm sure negative entities have a field day with all the confusion and abuse out there.

[jilola]

In every other walk of life humanity learns from the mistakes of others.
When it comes to sex we shield our children and ourselves from the experiences and lessons of the past and commit the future generations to making the same mistakes and receiving the same wouds we did, only because we think in this case is somehow taboo/special/naughty. HEck, we even call parts of mour own bodies the naughty bits!!

Think about a lumberjack-to-be who's expected to figure out a running chainsaw without ever hearing about them or that moving sharp chains can be harmful? Without knowing the best way of getting the most of the thing? It sounds iditotic and silly, doesn't it? But that's exactly what we as a society are doing with regard to sex and sexuality. Blundering in the dark and refusing to grasp the flashlight.

We hide our heads in the sand and expect kids not to figure out what certain bits are for. We then expect them to be celibate with all the hormones runing rampant while being oblivious to what the inevitable sex equallly inevitably will have as its result. THe we cry and rip pur collective togas about teenage pregnancies when all we need to do is tell the kids what's what and make sure they know what they are doing and that they have every bit of understanding about avoiding the unwanted pregnancies, VDs etc.
But no, we seem to want all that. Go figure.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Lighthouse]

I'm listening to The Road Less Traveled and Beyond by M. Scott Peck and this morning was listening to a part about sexuality vs spirituality.  

In it, Peck states that in many fundamentalist viewpoints, sex is the devil or evil trying to tempt us to be lustful and sinful (a belief that neither myself nor Peck subscribe to) and that God would not be a sexual being.  Some of these groups would purport that God is a-sexual and living a spiritual life in the truest sense means denying the yearnings of the flesh (a belief that many organized religions have adopted.)

Peck goes on to disagree with the notion that sexuality and spirituality are in conflict with one another... Stating that the physical union of flesh is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved, also the quest for spiritual enlightenment is the desire to know and unite with the Beloved.  He sees no conflict.  He then goes on to say that sex "screws things up" and that we often confuse the object of our sexual yearning for God and this is what makes sex a "problem" (he states that we all have problems with sex: Married people, single people, straight people, gay people, men, women and even Scott Peck.)

Then he goes on to state that if indeed we are made in Gods image, perhaps God is a sexual being, passionate, sexual, spiritual and sensual.  I have heard and read of experiencing the Divine in a truly passionate, even erotic encounter.  Many saints have written poetry on this as well as had written accounts of experiencing true passion through their Beloved Lord, God.  

He goes on to state that chastity vs celibacy is in his view the moral ground upon which to tread(I need to look this up because I always thought that to be chaste was equivalent to being celibate) He further explains that to be chaste is to have sexual encounters of the most fulfilling orchestrated by the Divine hand of God (instead of trying to orchestrate them ones self.)  He states that some sexual encounters would fall under the descripiton of being Chaste -- for the moral and spiritual higher good.  That most marital encounters would not fit within this category and that even indeed some subset of extra-marital and pre-marital encounters could qualify as being chaste encounters.

I have a few questions for you,
1.  Does anyone understand well enough the difference (if any) between being celibate and Chaste?  

2. What are your views on Spirituality and Sexuality?  Is there a conflict between the 2 and if so why?  

3. Why is it that most Holy Men and Women choose to be celibate?  Does it enhance their passion for the Divine by harnessing that passion instead of being distracted by the longings (and idolotry) of the object of their physical adoration?

Kerri