The Bible

Allanon · August 23, 2003, 19:53:53

Hebrews 5:12
In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

Allanon · August 23, 2003, 19:55:11

1 John 2:5
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[ 2:5 Or word, love for God] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

Allanon · August 23, 2003, 19:56:42

15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

Allanon · August 23, 2003, 20:07:26

Mark 6:10 And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place.
Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

shadowatcher · August 23, 2003, 20:52:43

Quoting the bible wont help, people say enough stuff in the bible so that you can find a quote about anything. People have "proven" way too much with bible quotes for their to be any credibility.

no_leaf_clover · August 23, 2003, 21:22:27

Allanon, if you want to post quotes from the Bible, at least spare us the long pages and put the quotes in 1 message, and not 40934503945 of them.

Allanon · August 23, 2003, 23:07:04

quote:
Allanon, if you want to post quotes from the Bible, at least spare us the long pages and put the quotes in 1 message, and not 40934503945 of them.

My apologies.

9 He said, "Go and tell this people:

" 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'
10 Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes. [1]
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed."

WalkerInTheWoods · August 25, 2003, 08:08:31

How is quoting from a work that many of us believe and have stated facts for our belief to be altered and thus not absolute truth suppose to hold any weight with us?

MJ-12 · August 25, 2003, 12:14:58

ss

shadowatcher · August 25, 2003, 14:08:05

Well, thats Allanon for ya.

Allanon · August 25, 2003, 16:48:31

Guess who back!!! THE WORD.

quote:
Allanon believes that scripture will work on people regardless of belief.

4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6The angel said to me, "THESE WORDS ARE TRUSTWORTH AND TRUE. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Gandalf · August 25, 2003, 18:22:44

Yawn...

no_leaf_clover · August 25, 2003, 18:39:14

What can anybody say to Allanon that hasn't already been said? Allanon, you're not a stupid person. Extremely thickheaded, but not stupid. So you should understand why we don't like your constant out and out Bible-thumping, yet you continue to post as if it's your duty to convert us all.

Think of it this way: when you get a splinter in your skin, your skin is usually able to push it outwards on its own until you can pull it out with your fingers. However, porcupine quills, upon entering the skin, are able to force themselves deeper and deeper into the victim's body.

In the same way as a normal splinter, when someone doesn't like a particular idea, that's fine, and no harm is really done. But when you keep forcing ideas onto people, they're just going to get annoyed, eventually angry, and that's when you have a problem.

Corny analogy, but you get what I'm saying. I know you're aware of this situation, but like I said, you probably see it as your divine mission or whatever to convert people here. Don't see it that way. Let God and Jesus convert people on their own. No offense, but it doesn't seem to be your place.

shadowatcher · August 25, 2003, 23:03:32

What can Allanon say that he hasnt said already?

no_leaf_clover · August 26, 2003, 06:00:20

He only has to post about the whole other half of the Bible.

Allanon · August 27, 2003, 17:36:24

quote:
Not only do I believe the Bible has changed but also there used to be more books in the Bible. Did you know there are now 66 books in the Bible?

Peace & Love,
Paul

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

RJA · August 28, 2003, 13:08:26

2 Corinthians 12:2-3 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--"

In this passage Paul is talking about himself, of course. His wording "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know" clearly indicates that Paul and his readers were familiar with, and not bothered by the concept of being out of one's body.

Also, there are continual references throughout the Bible about being "in the Spirit" which are probably also references to OBEs.

Books like "The Oxford History of the Bible" (look for it on Amazon) will provide a thorough and scholarly history of how the Bible came to be in it's current form. Nearly every seminary in the country teach classes on this, so it's not a secret or a plot to suggest that our current version of the Bible has been subjected to a variety of revision and editing through the centuries.

Also, it should be noted that at the time of the Reformation several books were removed from the Canon. Martin Luther wanted to also remove The Revelation (not Christ-centered enough) and James (to works-oriented) also but didn't have enough support for that. So for those that argue that the Bible is and always was God's complete and perfect and unalterable word, - you must then ask which canon are you referring to, the one before the Reformation or after. They can't both be perfect and unalterable. So either God allowed his church to use a screwed up version for 1600 years or else he's letting us use a screwed up version now - which is it?

Jesus came to bring truth to the Jewish nation but they were so hung up on their written law that they couldn't accept Jesus' message. Jesus exhorted people to live by the "perfect law of freedom" and to "live by the Spirit" rather than to blindly follow a written law. It is obvious that he wanted people to genuinely seek and relate to God via the Holy Spirit rather than to follow a written law. What is sadly ironic is that today the Christian church has fallen into the same trap all over again, inventing a new written law - the New Testament - and making that their God instead of genuinely seeking God through the Holy Spirit. When Jesus ascended he said that he would send a helper - the Holy Spirit - but he didn't say anything about a new written law. Unfortunately it is our human nature to be scared little bunnies, foolishly clinging onto something we can hold and touch (The Bible) instead of embarking on the less clear, and more challenging path of genuinely seeking God through direct experience - it's the golden calf thing all over again.

I believe the Bible contains valuable spiritual truths, but I like to think of the Bible as a God's workbook and the Holy Spirit as the teacher. When one places the Bible before the Holy Spirit it is a religious "cop-out" that only serves to ensure a spiritual status-quo.

If you took a math class you would use the textbook to learn how to solve problems. You wouldn't just memorize the answers in the back of the book. Unfortunately people treat the Bible differently. They pretend that it contains the exact correct answer for each of life's problems instead of thinking of it as a book that will help them in their approach to life's challenges. When you turn it into a rule book, so lose all of the value and you end up living a life of fearful obedience rather than joyful, spiritual discovery.

It should also be noted that the Christian church has a long history of mysticism (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila) who clearly have had OBEs. There is a current re-emerging interest in a form of "centering prayer" that Catholic monks have practiced for centuries (look for books at Amazon on Centering Prayer, or by Thomas Keating). In one book I read it sounded like among Catholic monks various phenomina like OBEs, levitating, speaking in tongues, etc. are all very common - which is not suprising since in every spiritual tradition continued practice in quieting the mind and meditating seem to lead to OBEs.

It's clear that God built a spiritual mechanism into us that facilitates us leaving our bodies. Those who believe OBEs are somehow a gateway to evil need to ask themselves why God would make it so easy for us to leave our bodies if *he* didn't mean for us to do it? Which is not to say that certain people won't abuse the ability, - but just to assert that it is a normal, spiritual occurrence that can be used for the purpose of spiritual growth.

DjM · August 30, 2003, 14:50:41

Please bare in mind that the Roman Catholic Church kept the Holy Bible under lock and key until about 1840-1850. The Masses were spoken in Latin for many years, so many people could not understand what was being said...just showed up on Sundays and made a contribution. With the advent of the printing press, it was reprinted and distributed to the public. It was shortly thereafter that many Protestant religions came about, as people coule now read it for themselves. The problemn was that they interpreted a SPIRITUAL book MATERIALISTICALLY. This created misunderstandings that exist today.

You have asked what appears to be a simple question. However, it is not. There are countless stories, reportings, etc... that support the impetus for your question, though.

Most people are looking for ONE singular truth that is all pre-packaged and ready to be read/explained. HOWEVER, this was never the case, nor will it be. The truth is eternal. It is changing as we currently exist, as the universe itself changes. We are ALWAYS seeking the truth...

DjM · August 30, 2003, 15:01:38

quote:
Originally posted by WalkingThePath

Hey

Thanks for ALL the replies here
I am a born- Christian, but somehow what people told me about my religion and Jesus, felt "wrong". Now i know.
I feel love and admiration for Jesus, who died for what he believed in, for managing to "change" the system. Unfortunately, it seems, his name and words were manipulated from people who wnated to make the best of a situation or weren't ready to understand or accept his words.
I don't believe Jesus' plan was to create a "religion", to plant the fear of God, Sin and Devil in peoples' hearts, but rather to give them "freedom" from the paradigm of those days.
It is sad how things turned out.

Malvina

It's very refreshing to come across Christians who come to a greater understanding of their faith without being angry and refuting it all. FYI: 95% of today's Christianity is incomplete and incorrect. However, this does not mean that we should throw out the whole of it and start Jesus bashing, as many do.

As your understanding grows, EVERYTHING will make perfect sense.

I hope that you're able to find all of the answers that you seek.

All the best.

DjM · August 30, 2003, 15:42:12

quote:
Originally posted by RJA

It should also be noted that the Christian church has a long history of mysticism (St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila) who clearly have had OBEs. There is a current re-emerging interest in a form of "centering prayer" that Catholic monks have practiced for centuries (look for books at Amazon on Centering Prayer, or by Thomas Keating). In one book I read it sounded like among Catholic monks various phenomina like OBEs, levitating, speaking in tongues, etc. are all very common - which is not suprising since in every spiritual tradition continued practice in quieting the mind and meditating seem to lead to OBEs.

I'd just like to elaborate on this point a bit...

The RC Church assumed an ambiguous position regarding magnetisim. At first it comdemned it in 1841, but adopted a more open policy in 1856. In Le Monde occulte ou Mystereres du magnetisme (The Occult World or Mysteries of Magnetism; 1851 and 1856), Henri Delaage felt that magnetism was a proper means for bringing back unbelievers to the faith. His book was prefaced by the celebrated Father Henri Lacordaire who, from 1846, spoke favorably about this science after having assumed the pulpit at Notre-Dame in Paris.

In the 18th century, the Church did not preoccupy itself with condemning magnetism. It was more resolute toward Freemasonry, because the infatuation with esoterism had caused many Christians to seek entry into the Lodges. Freemasonry was denounced in a papal bull (In emineti) of 1738, renewed by the bull of Benedict XV (Providas) in 1751. Yet this interdiction remained ineffective, and the lodges expaneded nearly everywhere in France. Freemasonry was even found in monastaries. Jose A. Ferrer-Benimelli estimates that nearly 2000 clerics frequented the lodges. In this period, nearly 650 Masonic workshops were distributed around the country. With the onset of the Revolution, nearly all of them went inactice.

Traveler · September 04, 2003, 08:01:11

quote:
Also, it should be noted that at the time of the Reformation several books were removed from the Canon. Martin Luther wanted to also remove The Revelation (not Christ-centered enough) and James (to works-oriented) also but didn't have enough support for that. So for those that argue that the Bible is and always was God's complete and perfect and unalterable word, - you must then ask which canon are you referring to, the one before the Reformation or after. They can't both be perfect and unalterable. So either God allowed his church to use a screwed up version for 1600 years or else he's letting us use a screwed up version now - which is it?

Jesus came to bring truth to the Jewish nation but they were so hung up on their written law that they couldn't accept Jesus' message. Jesus exhorted people to live by the "perfect law of freedom" and to "live by the Spirit" rather than to blindly follow a written law. It is obvious that he wanted people to genuinely seek and relate to God via the Holy Spirit rather than to follow a written law. What is sadly ironic is that today the Christian church has fallen into the same trap all over again, inventing a new written law - the New Testament - and making that their God instead of genuinely seeking God through the Holy Spirit. When Jesus ascended he said that he would send a helper - the Holy Spirit - but he didn't say anything about a new written law. Unfortunately it is our human nature to be scared little bunnies, foolishly clinging onto something we can hold and touch (The Bible) instead of embarking on the less clear, and more challenging path of genuinely seeking God through direct experience - it's the golden calf thing all over again.

I believe the Bible contains valuable spiritual truths, but I like to think of the Bible as a God's workbook and the Holy Spirit as the teacher. When one places the Bible before the Holy Spirit it is a religious "cop-out" that only serves to ensure a spiritual status-quo.

If you took a math class you would use the textbook to learn how to solve problems. You wouldn't just memorize the answers in the back of the book. Unfortunately people treat the Bible differently. They pretend that it contains the exact correct answer for each of life's problems instead of thinking of it as a book that will help them in their approach to life's challenges. When you turn it into a rule book, so lose all of the value and you end up living a life of fearful obedience rather than joyful, spiritual discovery.

RJA,
Excellent explanation. I've also found this to be true. To say that the bible has not been altered is just plain ignorance. God's truth is still there, it hasn't changed but the book has been altered by those with ulterior motives. It can be said that by ommitting information and altering meanings the bible is misleading and is used by satan to lead people into living by the law, afterall, satan can quote scripture. Its possible. Christ came to condem the law cause it was of man and not God.

Allanon, question, If you believe the bible, satan rules over the earth (God gave him dominion) and will continue to do so till the time Christ comes again as stated in Revelation. Why is it so hard to believe that the bible has been altered? Satan is in control of the earth and God has allowed him to deceive and control man.

WalkingThePath · August 03, 2003, 22:07:33

hello

I was just wondering, everybody it seems here, says that the Bible has been changed. Do we have evidence for this? And to what degree was it changed? And by who?
Anything related to these questions would be great help

Malvina

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