2nd comming contradiction

[Beth]

Logic,

I posted my own interpretation of this in the "End of Days" thread.  With my interpretation--there is no contradition at all.  Apocalypses come not just once (or twice), but every day in many ways.  I will re-post it here:

Hello everyone! – Discussions of nuclear armaments aside, here is MY take on this concept.  My interpretation is two-fold: One is personal and one is global.

From my metaphorical reading of the apocalyptic scriptures (canonical and non-canonical,) and then trying to understand their highly cryptic messages, I have thus applied them to my own life. In doing so, I realized that I have experienced "The End of Days" many times in my life.  I will explain.  

For me, whenever I progress to a new level in my spiritual awareness, my life is forever changed.  There is no way that I can go back to seeing the world the way I did previous to the advance.  In essence, the moment of epiphany or the period during which I am experiencing a leap of consciousness, marks the "End of Days" as I have known them.  These periods are oftentimes very disturbing, full of unanswered new questions, both of which are challenging me to discard old beliefs for new incoming understandings and ways of living.  Many of these times have been very painful. Sometimes this was the loss of loved ones that I had been attached to for many years; in relationships that no longer served my spiritual progression.  These people have been blood relatives, spouses, and friends. Most often this has come in the form of a parting of ways, which are "emotional and psychological deaths," but sometimes it came through physical death.  These losses can be very shattering experiences. But I always found in hindsight that this was always best—for either them or me—and perhaps for both. This same thing also applies to job losses, accidents, physical illnesses, and depressive episodes. In essence, I have lived through many "End of Days" and they are not over yet.  This is my personal application of this epic message.
 
Where do I get this?  In the biblical epic, metaphor and allegory are heavily used when writing of the "End of Days."  In Hebrew, Jerusalem means "City of Peace."  As a person, as an individual, I am a "city" unto myself.  "My city" is where I live, where I do my spiritual work, and where I must make my way as best as I can.  "My city" has psychological "walls" to protect it, "roads" of "knowing" to help me navigate through life, and even an "inner sanctuary" in the center of my city that acts as my temple, a place where I go to make most of my better decisions and reflect upon the future and purpose of my city.  "Other people" also inhabit my city.  I have "a wife" which acts as my intuition; I have a "husband" which is my "reasoning capability"; I also have "passions" that act as prostitutes, "prison guards" that inhibit my growth, and even "rulers" that govern my attitudes and behaviors. These governors are my "conscience" and they "punish" me when I have strayed.  

When I am content, I can truly say that I live in a "City of Peace."  When I am offered advancement however, "My City of Peace" is attacked, brutally sometimes, and ultimately destroyed.  And yes, "death" of "what these people represent" occurs around and within me. But with all destruction there is new building, the raising of a New City and with every new city there are new marvels to discover.  (Many of us have experienced these kinds of marvels through our consciousness expanding experiences and in our contact with the Astral Realm.) Each time I build a "NEW JERUSALEM" I am building a "New City of Peace" within myself.  

So to me, when a person steps onto and makes the conscious/free will decision to walk their spiritual path—no matter what it requires of us—there are many "Ends of Days."  When I have "walked through the fires of my judgment" through my own personal "purgatory" time and time again, answers to old troubling questions have always been answered. More often than not, this takes "time."  But, in time, I always come out a better person, a more loving person, and a more spiritually aware person.  With every spiritual advancement new and more perplexing questions have arisen that I am sure will be answered in the same way. I think that to "stop" at any one junction and settle into any dogma that would cause me to cease in my spiritual growth, would truly be Hell—a perpetual Hell.  I hope that as long as I am in this body that I will continue to progress along my path, even if I must continually experience the pains of each of my "End of Days."  

In NT terms this is found with Jesus (it will come like a "thief in the night"), but also with the Apostle Paul.  As I have stated elsewhere, Paul and his contemporaries were expecting and yes hoping, for Christ to return any minute, any day, or any week.  Paul's life, as depicted in his letters shows of many trials, tests, and the ultimate overcoming of those trials.  When you look at all of this in a different context, I am sure that Christ did return, every minute, every day, and every week as individual people experienced their own spiritual progress.  As a group, these earliest Christians were jointly experiencing an "End of Days" as well, where old ideas were being left behind and new growth was taking place.  Individually and together, these people were striving for a better life and a better world. This brings us to a global application of "The End of Days."  

On a larger scale, this process is much slower, because it must take the status of all people into consideration.  Metaphorically, Jerusalem can also represent the "physical world" – the world that all of us share. Globally, history shows us many such "Ends of Days" where power exchanged hands, territories expanded and broke apart, oftentimes at great expense to the people.  But in this, "great leaps in consciousness" have also been made, where old ideas were discarded and left behind, making room for new experiences and new ways of understanding.  These periodic "End of Days" have helped us all to progress as a world people.  

For one example, the western idea that the earth was at the center of the universe was very ingrained in people's view of reality.  Imagine what it would have been like to have a belief like that taken away!  Since then, look how far we have come and how much broader our view of reality is—and yet—many do not "believe" that there is life anywhere else in the universe.  Global progress takes time.  In this process, we still have a long way to go however, for in many ways we are stuck.  We still live with tyranny, both political and religious.  We still have wars, weapons of mass destruction, mass hunger and mass disease.  

As a global society we have, so far anyway, failed in the tests of some of the most simple of all spiritual lessons: we have failed to "Love one another, as each of us wants to be loved"; we have failed to see where "we reap what we sow"; and, we have failed to seek those things that are the most important. As found in Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."  

My treasures are all of the precious lessons that I have learned while I have built, destroyed and rebuilt, my ever-new "Personal City of Jerusalem."  As a global society, I have to wonder what our treasures are now and what they will be in the future.  

So, may we all continue to experience apocalyptic times in our lives and as a global society may we learn our lessons as quickly as possible.  

Peace,
Beth

[Logic]

Beth,
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. According to most church going people, like christians, swear by the fact that yes, all of the prophecies have to be completed before the second comming of christ, yet, the seccond comming can happen at any time at all. It sounds like the words of the bible are being taken out of context, to further strengthen the dogmatic intetions. My point was never to discuss the ideas and theories behind the apocalypse, but the interpretations that most religious people have about it being able to happen at anygiven time contradicting the acctual text of the bible.

[no_leaf_clover]

Logic -

Sounds exactly like another one of the 'tools' of the Church. They seem to like to play dirty. Hell being a fiery place, etc., is a similar example to the kind of the crap they'll hit you with. The fact of the matter is that at no point in the Bible does it say that either Hell is fiery or that Satan is a red guy with pointy horns unless it was written after the publication of Dante's The Divine Comedy (in which Hell was metaphorically displayed as firey) or influences from pagan european mythologies (stereotyped 'Satan'-like characters).

What they won't tell you - and this is getting off topic but is something to think about, and try not to take offense because none is intended - is that according to other prophecies from the Old Testament, Jesus, by the prophecies, is NOT the messiah. The messiah was prophesized to do the following things, among others:

• Mark the beginning of a time when men would no longer commit any sins or crimes


• Cause all of the nations of the world to acknowledge God


• Bring a final age of peace (no more wars!)

It wasn't until Jesus was gone when people started making up crap about the messiah dying on the cross for your sins, being the son of God, etc., etc. Jesus died on the cross because he was stirring up crap with the Roman Government, which was still supporting Roman Mythology. Ironically, the Roman/Byzantine Empire fell to invasions from the Huns and Germanic tribes after a slow decay into ruins after adapting Christianity (and I'm not implying that Christianity was the cause their downfall) as their official religion. So much for a great age of peace, Jesus 'the Christ'!

I've heard people say that the things from the Old Testament no longer applied once Jesus was born, since he died for everybody's sins and whatnot. That's all fine as far as the commandments and general christian morality goes (I guess the church wanted to start up some 'crusades'.. 'Thou shalt not kill' went right out the window []), but to say the prophecies no longer apply is a bit much. Prophecies are for predicting the future, not just predicting the future within a 'pact', since the prophets would obviously also see the end of that pact and what would happen afterwards. To say the Old Testament no longer applies would also be saying that the Messiah will never even come a 2nd time, necessarily.

Who or what could the messiah be if it hasn't come around yet (or came around yet to current knowledge) but is about to come around a second time, nonetheless?

A little off topic, but in the ballpark, and something to think about IMO.

Note: I forgot to fill in the bullets, so if you came to the post as saw jibberish or 'oopsies...' then that's why. It's fixed now.. []

[Beth]

Logic,

Yes--you are right--I did misunderstand [:I]... sorry!

Peace,[]
Beth

[Mustardseed]

The church people might misinterpret but there is no confusion in the scripture!. The problem is that most church folks chose to believe the PRE TRIBULATION rapture theory. That they would not have to go through the tribulation. However the POST tribulation theory says we will. @ doctrines. According to the first there is a problem according to the 2nd no problem. Actually it only says "of that day and that hour know no man not even the angels in heaven", says nothing about years decades etc. It is however a very controversial point but not impossible to understand, and not contradictionary.
Regards Mustardseed

[James S]

It might not be impossible to understand, but its most definitely not impossible to screw up!

I remember clearly a minister some 12 years ago who made some very bold statements giving all sorts of "hard evidence" that Jesus was going to return in the year 2000.

Not the only minister I heard spouting this.

As is typical human nature, those who want to see signs of the prophesies coming true will see them, and such people have been doing so now for nearly 2000 years!

James.

[Mustardseed]

Yea you are right James. This is religion and people get very upset when you tinker with their beliefs [] I know!! It is emotions and feelings faith and hope all mixed up in a little butterball.
Regards MS

[jc84corvette]

A 2nd comming scares me a little bit! I am only 15 (almost 16) and thats not my whole life! I do not want to die now!

[False Prophet]

quote:If all the events in revelations have to happen before the second comming, yet the second comming can happen at any given second no matter what has happened, how the hell does this work? I never really understood this..

God can do whatever the bonk he wants.


[Note from the moderator:  I was going to edit this post--but--I have decided not to at this time.  Please clean up your language False Prophet, or I will do so in the future.  --Beth]

[jc84corvette]

Yes I was going to say something about that language.

[Passionate-fool]

Interesting thoughts about end time prophecies Beth.  I have also come to the conclusion that they can be used for personal times of ending and new beginnings.  I have found it relevant in my mind at least.

As for Logic's question, I believe it is a valid one.  I have actually been studying this to a great extent lately.  Mostly in context to revelation which is the Christian standard for end time events.  I'm about to delve into Daniel to help give me a greater understanding.  But, here is how I have come to see it.

Revelations Chapters 1-3
The messages to the Churches
Summary

The messages to the seven churches were written down and sent out, indicating they were local messages to the churches in "the province of asia"

The messages are very different in character; and for us living today, the purpose is to find somthing that reveals our flaws that we get a chance to correct ourselves according to God's eternal standards.

The seven messages to the seven churches are given for the purpose of self-assesment and not for judging someone else.  We should find for ourselves what fits our situation as a group, church or denomination and make the appropriate change.

Revelations chapter 4
summary

The door in heaven was opened at Calvary.  Full contact with heaven has been restored though the blood of Jesus Christ.  All honor, worship and prasie is given God who sits on the throne.

Chapter 4 and onwards John is shown what "will take place after" the seven churches.  The chronology is initiated in this chapter.

The Four Living Creatures, the lion, the ox, face like a man, and the vulture.  in order they represent the royalty, the sacrifice, the humanity of God, and the judgement.  They represent God's character and every feature is met in Jesus Christ.

Revelation chapter 5
Summary

The big question in the heavenly throne room is: "Who is worthy to open the scroll with the seven seals?

The "Lamb", the "Lion of the tribe of Judah," the "Root of David" and the "Lamb that was slain" are all expressions for Jesus Christ.  He is the only worthy being to receive the scroll from the Father and open the Seven Seals because of His victory on the cross.

The first 5 Seals

Seal 1: The first Living Creature addresses John to come and shows him the Rider on the white(purity) horse armed and with conquest on his mind.  Started in A.D. 34 and continued to A.D. 323.  During this time the church, God's faithful believers are victorious and pure in spite of good or bad times.  Their master is Jesus Christ and the believers are filled with their "first love" towards him.

Seal 2: The second Living Creature addresses John and shows him the rider on the red(sinfulness) horse with a large sword.  A.D.323 Constantine accepts Christianity with imperial favor.  It is a time of compromise.  The red sin is coming into the church.  Human wisdom is introduced, the fourth commandment was attacked and the seventh day Sabbath was changed to worship on the first day of the week for which there is no biblical support.

Seal 3: The third Living Creature addresses John and shows him the rider on the black(utter opposite of white) horse.  This period begins in A.D. 538 with the elevation of the bishop of Rome to be the universal head of the church.  Changed the doctine of Christ as the center to Pope as center, thus elevating man above Christ.  The law of God was changed yet again when the second commandment is ignored.  The change made earlier to the 4th commandment by Constantine is accepted and promoted by the church.  Forgiveness of sins accomplished by Jesus Christ was changed to the practice of priests forgiving sins and assigning penance.  Jesus as the resurrection and the only source of life was changed to a pagan doctrine of natural immortality.  Priests and people were sunken in ignorance and vice.  The dark ages begin and continue to deepen for centuries.  there is hope though.  "do not damage the oil and the wine".  Representing the word and spirit.  God promises to protect His word and His Spirit.  Ends about A.D. 1100

The fourth Seal: The fourth Living Creature addresses John and shows him the rider on the pale horse.  The riders name is Death.  He carries scales(judgement).  He is given power over 1/4 of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts(nations) of the earth.  About A.D. 1100 the papacy claimed authority over emperors and kings.  The inquisition was established to ensure that no one would secretly acknowledge any authority but the Pope.  It is estimated that anywhere from 50-200 million people were killed by the inquisition.  estimated that 25 million died of plagues.  The plagues caused severe famine in which many more people died.  Also a time of Barbarian kingdoms invading.  Ends in 1798 when Napolean captures the Pope and brings him to france.

The fifth Seal: A.D.1798-present day,  During the 5th Seal some kind of judgement takes place since the dead faithful saints in the text are given a white robe.  The white robe representing Christ's righteousness which is given to all faithful believers.  However this does not mean that the Saints are in heaven as they are told to "wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed".  we are in a period of waiting.  Waiting for the sudden return of our savior.

The Sixth Seal
Summary

The 6th Seal is the unexpected second coming of Jesus.  Earthquakes, the whole universe is shaken, signs in sun, moon, stars, the sky recedes like a scroll and every mountain and island will be removed.  No living person will miss this event.

The Lamb comes sitting on His throne and the wicked sense that God's wrath has come and would rather hide in the shaking mountains than to see the glorious face of the Lamb on His throne.

Who can stand?  final words of Revelation chapter 6.  Chapter 7 goes on to explain the seal of God on His faithful believers and the Saints dead and alive go to heaven.

I could go on but I won't considering this is already a very lengthy post.  In my mind most of the things that must happen before Jesus comes back have already happened and thus I can with a good concious expect His emminant return.  Granted, I hold a different picture of the book of Revelation than other people.  Even within my own denomination I'm somthing of a renegade.  I don't expect any of you to believe this, but Logic's question was a very very good one so i've attempted to explain how this could be according to my own personal beliefs.  This is not to say that I don't think certain events aren't GOING to take place before He comes just that according to my research of prophecy it has been all but fulfilled.

God bless,

PF

[The AlphaOmega]

Never heard that arguement before (LOGICS).  Only God knows when it will happen and under what circumstances.  Not even the prophets of the LDS church (which I assume you are referring to) know when it is going to happen.  It is "believed" that we are the chosen generation to see it, but there is only ONE who knows.  I also believe that the terms have been misunderstood.  The mormon church is under the assumption that the world will end in a hail of fire and retribution.  To me this contradicts the very nature and message of Christ, even according to them.  I guess only time will tell.

[thechunk05]

All the signs are here that we are near the end of the age. I believe that sometime within the next 20 years the Rapture will occur, when all who have accepted and have been cleansed by the blood Christ are take up in an instant to heaven, and will be saved from going through the 7 year Tribulation period. All who are not raptured WILL NOT be doomed, as they will be given a second chance to turng their lives over to Christ. However, they must still go through this terrible time. Then, during the final battle of Armageddon(the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation), Christ will return to earth to put a stop to it, and he will creat a new earth and will rule and reign for 1000 years. All who have been good and accepted Christ during the Tribulation will be rewarded and all of those who have been unfaithful will be punished. Those who were raptured will return to earth with him and will rule and reign with him. The battle of Armageddon is NOT the end of the world, but the end of the AGE, and a new earth will be created, as the earth will never be destroyed! Do not be fooled by cultists who claim the end of the world, and that when christ returns the earth will burn. Instead, look foward to the the second comming of Christ![|)] So, the Tribulation period must come before the return of Christ, and the Rapture before the Tribulation.

[Mustardseed]

What scripture do you base the statement on, (that the rapture must come before the tribulation?)

[Gandalf]

All the signs are here that we are near the end of the age. I believe that sometime within the next 20 years the Rapture will occur, when all who have accepted and have been cleansed by the blood Christ are take up in an instant to heaven, and will be saved from going through the 7 year Tribulation period


hmm, Well I won't hold my breath, but everyone's entitled to their beliefs!

In mine, I believe that people like us will be sitting discussing about how the 'end times are coming' a hundred years from now, just as they did a hundred years ago, and a thousand years before that. The 'signs' are always 'there' if you look for them; but that just my take on it; just don't go and try and bring it about yourself by building atomic bombs or killer viruses aka '12 Monkeys'!!!

However, I do support the more moderate line taken here and the one which is followed by most sensible christians whereby even non-christians can still go to heaven if they have lived a good life, as it is possible to be 'good at heart but mistaken'.

This angle puts the Christian god in a much better light than before and protects against that odd and never entirly confortable notion of him being a god of 'unconditional love' even although in the previous model he condemned thousands or even millions of fundamentally good people to hell just because they hadnt quite got the idea of being Christian or were wrapped up in their own allbeit mistaken (from a xian pov) religion.

As far as I know, the catholic church has already adopted this modification, but how widespread is it amongst other christian 'factions' as it were?
I think it essentially rescues christianity and is a reasonable approach which is probably why it is adopted by most reasonable, moderate Christians, but I'm guessing the 'fire & brimestone' community are having none of it?

Regards,
Douglas

[shedt]

Christianity will continue to evolve and change as it has been. If it is deliberate or not, if it is from translation problems or from someone's perception and interpretation, it does not really matter. it will change. let's just hope it id for the good.

[The AlphaOmega]

Good point Gandalf.  What signs exactly?  War, famine, disease, hate, lies, corrupt power?  Love, compassion, forgiveness, service, change?  All have been here since it all started.  Aside from being technologically advanced, specifically what underlieing virtue, good or evil, do we have now that we have never had before?  As for the Christian aspect of it all, many christians don't practice christianity... hm!  Did Christ teach that sinners are damned, or did he get his feet cleansed by a harlet and promise her salvation?  The only reason I can see for His second coming for the redemption of us all is because of all the hypocrites that preach and preach, then preach some more.  He never did like them much []!

[onefromsomewhereelse]

There are many variations on end times interpretations in the Christian community.  The most popular now is the PREmillenial, which basically says that prophecies should be interpreted literally as much as possible; the POSTmillenial is an older view, and the Amillenial is the view that, when a prophecy has been fulfilled spiritually there is no need for seeking a literal interp.  

Most of the guys on TV are pre-mils.  They are the ones who are with Israel always in everything, since they believe the Jews will "make a comeback".  Amils, like this guy, know that the children of God are "spiritual Israel", and the physical nation of Israel has nothing to look forward to, since they rejected the Messiah, or are actually still looking for him.  Amils and Premils don't get along too well.

Sorry for the quick overview, but hope it might slightly help at least someone.

One

PS:  Many Christians don't accept the teaching that the Children of God are not all registered Christians, but the Bible plainly teaches this historical truth.  Real Christianity is actually quite liberal in this way.

[Logic]

If all the events in revelations have to happen before the second comming, yet the second comming can happen at any given second no matter what has happened, how the hell does this work? I never really understood this..

[jereome]

If all the events in revelations have to happen before the second coming, yet the second coming can happen at any given second no matter what has happened, how the hell does this work? I never really understood this..

Your mistaken and thats why your confused on this subject.

In the end days there are actually 2 comings.

The first is when Christ comes for his Bride / Church and the second is when he physically sets down at the last battle to take his kingdom.

The first can happen at any time but the second can be calculated to the exact day from the 6th seal.

The exact day is 7 years after you see the moon turn to blood and and the sun becoming black.

The exact day is 7 years after you see the Anti-christ confirm a covenant with the nation of Israel possibly the Mideast peace treaty.

The exact day is 3.5 years after you see the anti-christ go into the temple of God and declare that he is God.

The exact day is 3.5 years after you see God's 2 prophets possibly Moses and Definitely Elijah killed in the streets of Jerusalem and the world celebrating their deaths.

The exact day is 3.5 years after you see the worlds armies conquer Jerusalem and force God's 144,000 Jews into hiding. Where God will sustain his children for exactly 3.5 years.

[jereome]

What scripture do you base the statement on, (that the rapture must come before the tribulation?)

Simple he uses the whole Bible for scripture. Throughout the Bible God has always preserved his people from the wrath to come and delivered them from it.

Biblical Examples Include:

The Flood - God delivered Noah and his family from the judgment of the earth by commanding him to build and enter the ark.

Sodom and Gomorrah - God brought Lott and his 2 daughters out of Sodom and Gomorrah before he brought judgment and destroyed those cities.

Passover - God killed all the first born in Egypt but spared those that had the blood of the lamb on their mantles.

Another example that has just come to me when I was pondering Sodom and Gomorrah was when Abraham was talking to God about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Genesis 18:
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the LORD: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

My point behind this is that as long as the world has a significant concentration of people living right by God's standards he cant judge the world by his own standards.

So in order for him to judge the world at the end of days he either has to do 2 things.

1) Wait until a time of utter disbelief, so bad that there are no longer any believers or a population so low that its less than 10 people per city.

2) Or deliver all the Righteous people then commence to judge the world.

and yes the tribulation period is God's judgment of the world therefore by his nature he has to deliver his people.