Adam and Eve (No Offense)

[Fuzziwig]

Then what about the asians and the indians ?

[DjMidgetMan]

I dont think it matters much. If all of mankind came from Adam and Eve than we are all one race, it wouldnt matter what color they were. Color of the skin is determined by what climate certain groups of people gathered and lived in, generation after generation. From what i know, The Bible doesnt mention what color their skin is, so it wouldnt be right to say they were White, Latino, Black, Asian, etc.

[Spirit_k9]

It doesn't matter, it's just a parable anyway.  If all humanity arose from 2 people we'd either all be mongoloids or look nearly identical. Such as the case with the tigers.  One particular type (forget which) of tiger was nearly driven to extinction, now the ones that are left across the globe are related, according to DNA samples.

If there was an "adam" and an "eve" they were coated with hair and didn't use language well enough to make a decision between themselves...LOL!

As a parable, the Adam and Eve story is simply stating that God put us here and there were specific rules to follow that weren't followed, thus every human since was born with "original sin".  That's all the story was meant to be.

Now, can this topic go into the correct forum?

[Nick]

Hi T_Kman0610,

I thought that your topic would be better suited to our Modern Christianity forum rather than Astral Chat. If you disagree please pm me and we'll work something out.


Very best,

[Beth]

T_Kman0610,

Adam and Eve were not the "first two humans" for they were not even real people.  The whole book of Genesis is an attempt to recreate a creation story that would keep the attention of ancient people as they sat around the campfire at night...

In Hebrew--Adam means "human being" and Eve means "to give life."  On a very basic level, Adam and Eve coming together merely represent the fact that "humans are alive and together they create new life."  On the same level, you could also say that by "making cloths out of fig leaves" that Adam and Eve represent the "misplaced thought" that living for materialistic aims is more important than just accepting yourself as you are.  With this interpretation, "Materialism" was of course deemed to be original sin...

I could go on...but unless specifically requested...I will refrain...

Peace,
Beth

[Tenacious]

T_Kman-

If I'm not mistaken, we are all created in gods image.  Therefore, the soul is the only thing that matters.  Color has no bearing on life []  We are all the same and we need to teach and be taught that very lesson.

Beth-

You know what?!?!?  You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge.   I thank you very much for your insights, as I have learned more from you than the church I use to attend.

Take care all!

[wisp]

Not the "being" of the first humans is "missing" the point.
The "point" is something else. The point is part of other points. The points form something.

Not being real removes and displaces points. Points that can take form, and position. In a geometric way you might say. A way for things to take shape or solve a dilemma.

The spirit of God would not be present in an illusion.

The things present and the things that happen is for a reason.  

Material is awareness and awareness is material.

The presence of God. A feel that is real.

If this was/is a dream, where are you in this?

Interpreting a dream helps. Whose the dreamer?
Multifaceted that way. And what about those points?
Where will this lead?

Where did this come from?

Beth, you seem to be coming out sounding like the serpent.
Is this your intention? Thoughts are important you know.
The story isn't real to you, so you shouldn't be offended I hope.

[kakkarot]

not to be a brat or anything, but that's a fairly dangerous stance to take beth, to say that something is *only* a psychological metaphor. i do realize that there are a few hints in the bible which seem to point to it being a metaphor of sorts, but from my experience interpretations are merely a person telling themself what they want to hear.

i'm not sure how much of the story of the garden of eden is true, but i personally don't care because it doesn't affect me either way. as for their race, as djmidgetman said: the bible doesn't say. although, later in the bible it does say that God seperated mankind from itself (during the tower of babel thing, where they were trying to physically reach heaven. emphasis on the *trying*) by creating different languages. it might also say different races but my memory is rusty about that part so i encourage you, t_kman, to look it up at your convenience ^_^ .

~kakkarot

[Mustardseed]

I would have to agree w you  about intrepretation Kakkarot . I dont know what the truth is and neither does anyone else living today. However that said I BELIEVE they were real people and as for their colour it is anyones guess. One thing is for sure that the first mention as far as I remember of a black person is the son of Noah, called Ham meaning dark. The question brings on the everlasting discussion of evolution vs creation etc as well as the flood and maybe we better not start that one []. From what I understand neither belief can be "proved". Faith in the Bible as well as faith in anything else that happened back some 6ooo years or (50 trillion)ago is just that....faith.
Regards Mustardseed

[Hephaestus]

quote:Originally posted by Beth

T_Kman0610,

Adam and Eve were not the "first two humans" for they were not even real people.  The whole book of Genesis is an attempt to recreate a creation story that would keep the attention of ancient people as they sat around the campfire at night...

In Hebrew--Adam means "human being" and Eve means "to give life."  On a very basic level, Adam and Eve coming together merely represent the fact that "humans are alive and together they create new life."  On the same level, you could also say that by "making cloths out of fig leaves" that Adam and Eve represent the "misplaced thought" that living for materialistic aims is more important than just accepting yourself as you are.  With this interpretation, "Materialism" was of course deemed to be original sin...

I could go on...but unless specifically requested...I will refrain...

Peace,
Beth

PLEASE CONTINUE! Im very interested! []

[Beth]

Wisp--

quote:Beth, you seem to be coming out sounding like the serpent.

 How so wisp?  I would think that "the serpent" would be saying that "materialism is GOOD for you....."

quote:Not the "being" of the first humans is "missing" the point.
The "point" is something else.

If you tried to explain that "something else" immediately after this quote--I am afraid I do not understand your point.

Kakkarot--

quote:not to be a brat or anything, but that's a fairly dangerous stance to take beth,

Thanks--but since I feel confident of this position--I will take my chances!![] But--thanks for your concern...[]

Tenacious--Well at least someone understands what I have to say!![]

Peace all,
Beth

[Beth]

Hephaestus:

Okay![]  I will be glad to.  Let me go put something together on this.  It will take a little prep time...but hopefully I will post it before the evening is out...

Peace,
Beth

[wisp]

Hi Beth,
I take it your not into duality concepts. That's okay if your belief is different. It's what ever works for you.
"Something else" is an open door, or an open window. Pathways for going and coming in. Points, lines, shapes, graphs, diagrams are navigational tools through the doors or windows. I suspect most people have this inner ability consciously or unconsciously to travel various routes. We each design the shapes and other learning tools for the journey. You have your system which must work fine for you. You express confidence, this is a good thing. You seem to lack (in your writing) a connection or understanding of other's pathways. That's okay too, it just places doubts in how your system would work for me. We all are headed for the same destination aren't we? I know that many people who hold to the "oneness" concept have a tendency to place dualist in a box out there in the astral somewhere. You haven't exactly said what you believe as yet. I'm just guessing because you haven't said anything specific yet. So far, you can bait a hook. You see what you can catch. You don't share yourself. So far you use words to sheild yourself or search for something. Open up. That's why I liked your metaphore in "End of Days". You opened yourself up. A few barriors present perhaps, but don't we all have some?

I hope I clarified myself? I would say take a stab, but then, you might. []

[Beth]

Wisp,

I am very careful in what I "believe" and I try very hard to be very "discerning" in what I "know."  On this board, for the most part, I discuss what "I know."  If I am unsure, I pose it as a question or clearly state that it is a conjecture. If it is "my own application" like in the End of Days post, like you did, you will recognize it.  If "I am" anything, I am a seeker...

Now...Hephaestus, here you go! (It's a bit long[:O] but I wrote it as briefly as possible!)

[To my critics, I am not pulling any of the following out of my ear or anything—the things I am about to write are FACT.  They are FACT because, biblical scripture was originally written in HEBREW, by Jewish writers.  All the names found within biblical scripture are, for the most part, HEBREW names and ALL Hebrew names have very explicit meanings that are derived from the Hebrew vocabulary.   So, while I am "interpreting it allegorically" and yes, differently from the traditional way, I am doing so in the same spirit that ancient Jews did (and the earliest Christians,) and further, I am not going to deviate in any way from the actual meanings of the names vis-à-vis their lexical meanings as found in the Hebrew Lexicon that sits here on my desk.  All I am doing is translating the names from the original Hebrew. So--I am not making any of this up—nor is this "the serpent" speaking.]

On the opening chapters of Genesis IN HEBREW:

"Adam" means "man, or human"
"Eve" means "to live, or to give life to"
"Cain" means "possession or acquisition"
"Abel" means "vanity"

So, Adam and Eve represent the fact that humans exist, and that they procreate to make other humans.  When Adam and Eve first realized they were "naked" they made for themselves "clothes of fig leaves."  This represents humanity's realization that there were other opportunities to be explored besides just living for God's sake and God's pleasure.  Why so?  In Hebrew the same word that is used for "fig" is also the same word that means "an opportunity, or purpose." (Hence "fig" is a metaphor for "opportunity, purpose.")  This act of course got Adam and Eve booted from the Garden of Eden.  (By the way, the Garden of Eden could easily be interpreted as "Time and Space" for the Hebrew word for "Eden" also means "time" and the word for "garden" means "enclosure" or "with boundaries."  Hence, "time" and "space.")  

Now, (see Genesis 4) Adam and Eve's first son, Cain, represents "the acquisition of material possessions" and this then leads to their second son Abel which represents "vanity."  As the surface level of the story tells us, Cain slew Abel.  So, the "acquisition of material possessions" will "slay our vanity."  (You can read in Ecclesiastes about the "meaninglessness" of the whole vanity thing.)  While vanity dies a cruel death, the acquisition of material possessions continued to exist and was only banished to the Land of Nod.   Why is the word "banished" used??  Because in Hebrew the word "Nod" means "banished" or "thrust away."  So, Adam and Eve went the way of accumulating material possessions instead of living for God's sake and they suffered greatly, for their vanity was forever taken away from them, and as a result humans were "banished" through their desire for acquisition of material possessions.  

But, this is where the story gets even more interesting.  

Genesis 4:17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

Enoch means "initiated, to dedicate, to train, to catechize."
Irad means "pass on" or "advance"
Mehujael means "the destruction of God"
Methushael means "men of false gods"
Lamech means "to be brought low in wickedness"

So, (interpreting verses 17-18) "The acquisition of material possessions gives birth to the teaching of one to advance in the destruction of GOD, leading men to false gods which only bring them low in their wickedness."

Genesis 4:19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21His brother's name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play the harp and flute. 22Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain's sister was Naamah.

Lamech means "to be brought low in wickedness"
Adah means "ornaments"
Zillah means "shadow, to be shady"
Jabal means "be born along"
Jubal means "the stream"
Tubal-Cain means "flowing forth of material possessions"
Naamah means "pleasantness"

Now, being brought low in wickedness joins together with ornaments of mere 'shadow'. These ornaments cause humans to be born along a stream flowing forth with material possessions of pleasure."

Genesis 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." 26Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh.

Adam means "man, or human"
Seth means both "appointed, granted" and also "foundation"
Abel means "vanity"
Cain means "acquisition of material possessions"
Enosh means "human 'beings'"

Humans were then "granted" another chance, so in place of the vanity of material possessions, they built a foundation of human "beings."  

Why the difference in "humans" and "humans beings?" The next verse clarifies:

Verse 26: "At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD."  

The "LORD" in the original Hebrew is the god-name YHWH which is derived from the verb "to be" or "to become."  

In closing then, after all was lost of vanity, humans began to evolve or to become "human beings."  With material possessions destroying our vanity, we are mere humans, but with God as our foundation, we are becoming HUMAN BEINGS.

That's all for now!  Good night....

Peace,
Beth


p.s. Mustardseed,  

quote:One thing is for sure that the first mention as far as I remember of a black person is the son of Noah, called Ham meaning dark.

Be very careful saying what is "for sure" for this is incorrect--the name "Ham" has nothing to do with race.  "Ham" actually means "warm or hot" as an adjective, and "to become warm or hot" as a verb. I will have to get back with you on how Noah's geneaology can be interpreted...it too is fascinating...[]

[Mustardseed]

Dear Beth
I just dont know how to deal with this and feel so very frustrated. Sometimes it feels like we talk 2 different languages. I realise that is my problem and I will take your advise and take a deep breath.
Firstly ok not "for sure" then, the question I was trying to answer was about race, and I always thought that Ham meant dark or black I will look that up, sorry if I was wrong. That was all. However now that I have your attention let me ask you something. I have listened for a long time and through a lot of posts to your opinions. Some has been interesting and some has been confusing and some went way over my head. All that taken into consideration I see nothing in your research that proves anything.Nothing, nada .I understand the whole concept that the names mean something but so what??? You always present your views as absolute truths but to me they are not. What does it prove that the names have those meanings. Maybe thats how they named their kids or maybe the guy that wrote it down forgot ant put the names that way, but it does not prove that these things did not happen.!!! I see that it has made YOU draw the conclusion that the Bible is a man made story and I have no problem with that. But I see no such thing as proof. In so many words it feels like the empeorors clothes.....look he is not wearing anything. []No Offence but I keep thinking about my time as a hippie sitting around the campfire and hearing all these exieting theories and stuf.Whooee wow heavy man.You know!! I would agree with Wisp that you strike me as very onesided and sure of yourself, and come across as very superior, and maybe a tad condecending toward the paths and truths as seen by others. Now to me that is also a form of dogma and quite churchy.  

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

I don't quite know what to say to that Mustardseed...

Let me get back to you on this....

Beth

[Beth]

No wait.  I do know one thing I want to say.  Why is it necessary to attack me personally??  I do not understand this. For example:  

quote:I would agree with Wisp that you strike me as very onesided and sure of yourself, and come across as very superior, and maybe a tad condecending toward the paths and truths as seen by others.

How do you get that?  I am only posting what I have spent many years studying very hard to learn and understand.  I am only sharing with the AP the knowledge that I have obtained.  How does that make me condescending?  And further, condescending toward the paths and truths as seen by others?  Am I not one of those "others?"  Aren't YOU attacking me personally and also attacking the path that I am on???  Wouldn't that actually make you more guilty of what you accuse me of?  I certainly haven't made a post about you in this manner....

I don't appreciate comments like this Mustardseed.  Have a go at proving my research to be wrong--but please stop "having a go" at me personally.

Beth

[Mustardseed]

Thats fine Beth no problem. I really hope we not gonna get into another heated argument over this. I think I must just be too simple minded to "get it" !!!. Actually I had a few other thoughts and wanted to clarify to the question on the beginning of the thread. We havn't really touched on that, but we have to first realise that most likely Jesus was a whole lot more like American blacks than the whites. There seem to be no indication to me at all that he was blonde blue eyed and like the whities like to think of him. I traveled extensivly in the mideast and they are very dark. Even more so back then. It seems that ham went soutrh and started the african people and if you have ever seen a guy from somalia there is a difference.
Regards MS

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

quote:I really hope we not gonna get into another heated argument over this.

We aren't and won't.  The next time you post something like that, I am not going to respond to you ever again.  

quote:It seems that ham went soutrh and started the african people

So you are saying that Noah's sons were not the same race as Noah???  That perhaps Noah was a lighter color, and one of his sons was Black?  Mustardseed--think about this.  Do you really think there was ever a "1st black African"  Or a "1st White person?"  

Beth

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed
We havn't really touched on that, but we have to first realise that most likely Jesus was a whole lot more like American blacks than the whites. There seem to be no indication to me at all that he was blonde blue eyed and like the whities like to think of him. I traveled extensivly in the mideast and they are very dark. Even more so back then. It seems that ham went soutrh and started the african people and if you have ever seen a guy from somalia there is a difference.
Regards MS

Just a thought here -
You're likely right about Jesus, Mustard. He was a Jew, he was born to jewish people. Even if he was concieved by God he still had Mary's DNA. This would make him of a middle-eastern complexion, dark hair and brown eyes. If he were too radically different in appearance to his people he probably would have been treated as an outcast from the get-go. As to God's physical appearence? Nope, leaving that one alone alltogether!

One thing to consider here - try arguing the topic instead of arguing the person. This ain't Ice Hockey! You're not here to knock the they guy on the other team unconscious just so he can't get the puck!
Please stop criticising Beth, and for that matter yourself.
Beth is not condescending, and you're not simple minded!

Beth writes with a passion that comes from enjoying the journey she's on, and takes pleasure in presenting what she's found to other people.
The facts that she presents, as in the case here, are based on known Hebrew language origins. Just as someone who speaks Japanese can pick up an english dictionary, and dictionary of etamology and KNOW that they are getting accurate english meanings and origins. She's never claimed to have all the answers, but please, give her some credit for all the years she has spent researching this stuff. I don't think anybody else here has been as dedicated to exploring the mysteries of biblical history as Beth has.

If you or anybody here truly thinks Beth is wrong, prove it! Do the research, put the time in. Don't mock her or try to slander her character, thats a poor tactic that should be reserved for pathetic weak minded politicians who's script writers can't think up anything better to say in reply.

Mustardseed, you've shown on a number of occasions your level of knowledge and insight. You're no simpleton and you have a lot of experience behind you. Your questioning of my methods of determining whether or not my spirit guide is on the level has led me to find out some rather startling revelations about the reality of Jesus, and the relationship my guide and other spirit beings have with him. YOU KNEW THIS! You knew what I was going to find if I kept digging, and I'm very grateful you pushed the point.

When we look at another facit of an object, we discover a whole lot more about that object than we would have if we continue to view it from only one angle. It doesn't make the first view invalid, in fact it can often help us understand more of what we are looking at.

Don't feel threatened by Beth. You two are on the same side - that of knowledge, life and love.

Kind regards,
James.

[Mustardseed]

Hi James
Well I am threathened by her. I feel that I am talking to MY WIFE. The minute I try to question her I get this "I am never gonna talk to you again". What the f....is that all about. GROW UP BETH.!!!!! I have questions and if you feel I am too hard to talk to be my guest and stay the bonk away. I sent you some PMs and let you know I am at a difficult point in my life, but intend no harm, maybe I will survive maybe not, however I am not going down without a battle. I really care for you ( ? )though I will never be able to show you how much on a computer thread, maybe some other day. but I am not GOING TO ACCEPT YOUR VIEWS UNTIL I MAKE SURE THEY ARE THRE TRUTH FOR ME. I am getting to the end of my rope and all I have is some female Beth Phillips who is concerned about the fact that I DARE TO QUESTION HER about the meaning of life.!!!!!!!!!!THIS IS LIFRE AND WHY WE ARE HERE BETH. Well  suit yourself and dont ever talk to me again. .......What the heck is going on here!!!!

To all of you who are struggeling,, who desire the truth and yet is hesitant to let go without knowing for sure. Hold on make sure, take no mans word for it and find the truth for YOURSELF. My hand is above my head in a fist I care not for all the PHds  in the world. I wanna know for myself. and to you Beth if you cant take the smoke in the kitchen....get out. Go find some sweet  admiring , mallable unquestioning soul, stay away from me. I have been hurt, I have suffered under false teachers, been abused by decietful women and decieved by cunning lying teachers, my heart is torn and the blood is still running fresh from my wounds , i dont trust you or ANY MAN. This is not some quaint Philosopical conversation. MY SOUL AND MY LIFE IS AT STAKE. I dont expect you will ever understand nor that you will ever have compassion and this to me is the greatest and most sure wittness to tell me to beware. It seems you would rather win an argument and loose a friend. Like I said before  Beth.........Words..there was a time I believed in words.....Think about it. SELAH.

ticked off Mustardseed

PS to all you others I have had my fill, and apologise for my words though I mean everyone. If you would rather that I stay away I will, no questions asked, no regrets, If you want me to stay just let me be what I am. I am searching and I am serious I know the answers are out there and am determined to find them.

[Nagual]

quote:I am at a difficult point in my life, but intend no harm

Many people have problems, me included... but it's not an excuse to be aggressive.  And I can tell you for sure that there must be people out there with 100 times more problems than you or me could have.

quote:I am not GOING TO ACCEPT YOUR VIEWS UNTIL I MAKE SURE THEY ARE THRE TRUTH FOR ME

Good, I would not either.

quote:I DARE TO QUESTION HER

Or you dare to insult her...

To sumup: you suffer, we all suffer...  no need to make others suffer more.  Continue your quest for the truth; stay calm and polite.

[wisp]

Beth,
To answer the question whether,  "Do You Really Believe...(fill in the blank)? I would have to say YES if it applied to what is right for me. That's the point I was trying to make earlier in this thread. It's a system, a belief system, it doesn't have to make sense to anyone except the believer. There is a quiet and silent messaging with the "system". This messaging is so deep, so real, so fulfilling, it can't be ignored by the true believer. It works.
For instance, I too have heard that Ham was dark. The particulars don't matter by itself. It more of a building of info in a special location in the body, mind, or soul. These things matter to me as a believer. I don't hold it against you for not understanding what you do not experience. In fact, when you mentioned Ham meant warm/hot, it spoke to me. The fact (in that special place) that Ham is dark is not replaced by a new fact however. By testing,signs and manifestations seen daily by me, I will soon learn what is true. In fact, Ham being dark and hot is a clue on something I've been trying to figure out for sometime. Many pieces fit together when your in synchrony. I believe everyone is in synchrony, it's just most aren't aware of the phenomenon. It's a delightful existence, and I believe it has to do with a level of enlightenment that may be something coming to the future in larger numbers. I'm personally not much into History, but many people are. In fact,for me anything earlier than 5 years before I was born I have a lot of doubts of really happening (in another place separate from the "special place" mentioned earlier). Therefore I think that's why historical information is difficult for me. I think there is a bigger purpose for why some people are strong in some areas and weak in others. I believe this reason will become more known in the future, just as synchrony will become more of a reality to larger numbers.
In the meantime, I'm fascinated with your interpretations of the Hebrew language. I wouldn't mind getting a list you mentioned having. I don't know if that's a possibility for you. That is, if it is too much material to deal with in this forum.

[wisp]

Hi Mustardseed,
It's kinda late for me but I wanted to respond to your last post. I didn't really look very close the first time I read it.
Reading it again I see things in it I didn't see before. Your emotional outburst (expression[]) took my attention away from your real message. I'm glad your here. I would hate to see you leave. Communicating through writing is quite different than being in person, this is true. I do get a strong sense of your character, strength, and sincerity. It does come across in spite of ([]) the emotion. I've been lucky in that I lack a lot of emotion in my life. I can see what it can do to people. There's nothing wrong with emotion, it's just that it can be a deceiver in it's own right. I even believe that emotion wrongly directed is the cause of so much hurt in one's life, as well as, wrong thinking. When we give out to others we in a way are putting an investment in that person. Your setting yourself up for disappointment (as you have already mentioned has happened). Emotions always seem to play out to a definite end. I have discovered a good substitute is feelings.Feelings are softer and require no investment into another person. Feelings represent the same as emotions except in a more controlled, predictible, and disiplined way. You probably know exactly what I'm talking about. You are obviously a soulful person, and probably more so, than me. For a long time I couldn't put my finger on what the difference between feeling and emotion were. I read something just yesterday that made it clearer to me. If your interested, I'll try to find that material again.
You have so much to share. Don't give up.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say.

[exothen]

Beth,

Just to clarify: the definition of Adam as found in a lexicon is "red earth," which fits the account of Adam's creation out of the earth (dirt). And the original sin was pride.

quote:So, while I am "interpreting it allegorically" and yes, differently from the traditional way, I am doing so in the same spirit that ancient Jews did (and the earliest Christians,)

Although there are meanings to all the names and places, it doesn't warrant a spiritual or allegorical reading of the text. You seem to have only assumed the ancient Jews and earliest Christians interpreted the text the way you do. This is completely unfounded.