Against Christianity?

[fuji257]

Paker7,

Even tho our beliefs are different - I see we share a lot of common grounds!

[Tyciol]

I'm too angry to post on this right now... I'd probably get banned for rudeness, so I'll wait a bit. Thanks for contributing to my rage folks!

[Palehorse]

I'm too angry to post on this right now... I'd probably get banned for rudeness, so I'll wait a bit. Thanks for contributing to my rage folks!

So let me get this straight.

You're a non-Christian.

You've been trying for days to convince Christians that you know better than they do how to practice their religion.

And yet... you're angry at us?

Am I missing something here...?

[Tyciol]

Only at some of the replies. I'm calm enough to reply to the many posts, I'm actually only mad at a couple, not all.. It'll give me wrists a rest from my nunchakuing.

I have just recently been starting various energy raising stuff and projection ect. I am also a fairly faithful Catholic. My question is wether or not any of these practices are against Christianity or any religion in general? I personally don't think they are but I am no theologian. Please post your thoughts on this.

What do you mean by 'fairly' faithful? Anyway, it's hard to say. I think they are, as they're what the bible would classify as the arts. I believe it's pretty clear that anything other than prayer that tries to call upon the powers of nature is evil, even if you're calling upon yourself. Especially in the cases of calling upon spirits, guides, or angels. "The only way to heaven is through me" is along the lines of what Jesus said.

They can be blended together, but don't expect to get much support from Catholics. Even though the mass is loaded with esoteric symbolism and magic, that kind of stuff isn't talked about much. There is mention of charisms, gifts of the holy spirity that could be seen as psychic, but they're meant for the betterment of humanity and not for personal gain.

In general, any kind of psychic stuff has to be done with the 2 greatest commandments in mind: Does this practice help others? Does it foster a greater relationship with God? Otherwise, it's just a distraction based on self-interest and would likely be frowned upon as "evil occultism."

The phrase 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions' comes to mind. If you call upon Satan to heal a sick child, it's still witchcraft, even if you mean to better humanity unselfishly with the act. The same would apply to calling upon Spirits, or 'inner light' or anything like that. Prayer. To Jesus/God. That's it. I'm not saying that's the only way, but to do otherwise would discard biblical passages. If you're willing to do that, we can take it to an entirely different kind of debate.

Depends on your views of Christianity. A more open-minded form, or person, would be much more open to such things, like the occult. But obviously, more fundamentalist Christians would be more likely to claim that such things are blasphemy and evil.

Being open-minded is great, but if you use it as an excuse to sin it won't save you.

- Note; I just realized that I've been replying to page 1 instead of page 5 like I thought I clcked on! Since I've already typed this I may as well post it. On to page 5 replies!

- - - -

it wouldn't be accepted by society, or by the church or any die-hard christian finatics who take the bible so literal that anything but what they believe is of satan.

Some things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me.

there's nothing wrong with it.  stop being afraid of something because your church says it's wrong.  we have an ability, and in this ability we can learn so much about ourselves and be better people.  since when does our god condemn us for wanted to be in a closer state of mind to him?  since when are we condemned for disciplining ourselves mentally?

Churches are one thing, every church's beliefs differ, that's why there are so many varying sects of Christianity. The Bible, however, which I do believe all Christian churches are founded upon, is something that should probably be regarded if you want to consider yourself a Christian and commune with Christ.

don't let yourselves be told by someone else what is evil and what isn't.  the world is full of blind people.  god knows this, and the majority of you should know this.  unless of course you're one of the projecters who are satanist morons and are obsessed with the concept of "evil."  those are the ones who voted it being against christianity.

Okay this would be the first thing that ticked me off. Do I need to explain why?

Jesus specifically said we'd be able to do everything he did and more.  For the majority of Christians who believe Jesus is God (I have a slightly modified view), this amounts to a "go ahead" for AP and related stuff.  Also, when you consider the view that God is omnipotent and omniscient, technically He's the one behind our ability to do this stuff even if He's not directly yoinking us out of body.

God isn't the only one who can give such powers. The only powers the people did get were from being faithful, praying, and messages received while awake or in dreams. It mentions people practicing magic or being possessed by spirits, so he's not necessarily the one behind them, even if you do follow biblical views.

As for me, I tend to think that the biblical characters who were given those experiences have shown us what's possible, and now it's up to us to take the ball and run with it.  When a parent is teaching a child to swim, they first take the child into the water, then hold on to him for a while so he can get the feel for it.  Eventually the parent lets go and lets the child swim for himself, though the parent is still never far away.  Once the kid actually knows how to jump in and swim for himself, what sense is there in continuing to carry him into the water?

What makes you think the fact that God gave the ability to many important people gives you his authorization to make them yourself? My thought would be, if he wanted you to have them, he would have given them to you and you wouldn't need to take lessons or practise to do them, they'd just be done.

So what about those who have naturaly been able to project/heal all their life and didn't necessarily "seek" to do so?  Are THEY doing God's word, or are they too being "deceived by the Devil" (As so many Christians believe).

That's tough to say. It could be either. To be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

God is truly omnipotent ! You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will. If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic. So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely. As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING. To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time. I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc)

As you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

[Palehorse]

God isn't the only one who can give such powers.

Who else can?  Satan?  Biblically, Satan can't do anything God doesn't allow him to.  In an indirect sense, *all* power comes from God, since all beings with power were created by God.  So how do we discern what kind of power to make use of and what to do with it?  I believe Paul gives us the answer here:

1 Cor 10:23
"Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive.

So then the question becomes, is astral projection beneficial?  I believe it is, and everyone who does it on a regular basis seems to as well.  Therefore, I will feel free to develop that ability until I see otherwise.  What's more, Satan does not possess the ability to do things that are beneficial for us; his name and very nature is "Adversary."  He can't help us for the same reason Jesus dismissed the notion that he was casting out demons in Satan's name as absurd -- because he'd be sabotaging his own motives.

The only powers the people did get were from being faithful, praying, and messages received while awake or in dreams.

Many people incorporate their prayers into their desire for AP ability.  ::shrug::

Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Ask, believing that you have already received?  Sounds suspiciously like an affirmation to me.  

It mentions people practicing magic or being possessed by spirits, so he's not necessarily the one behind them, even if you do follow biblical views.

I believe magic and possession are a completely different issue than astral projection.  In the period(s) when the Bible was written, magic was invariably connected to Pagan deities and religious ritual, and thus a form of idolatry for Jews and Christians.  As for being possessed, I don't think I need to get into why it's probably not a good idea to seek out *that* experience.  In contrast, astral projection doesn't have to involve manipulating any deities to do your bidding, so there's really no way to make the same logical connection to idolatry.

What makes you think the fact that God gave the ability to many important people gives you his authorization to make them yourself?

Your question is faulty on two counts.

First, biblically there are no especially "important people," only ordinary people that God chose to do extraordinary things with... sometimes *because* they were such unlikely candidates that it would make the result all that much more powerful.  "There is no Jew, Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."  The constant theme in the Bible is "wow, if God can do such huge things with that guy, then He could easily do the same with me, too!"

Secondly, I'm not "making" anything.  I first became interested in this stuff in an attempt to investigate strange things that were already happening to me.  Just read a few intro posts here, and you'll see that I'm not alone in that regard.  I don't believe I'm obtaining anything that wasn't inherent in me to begin with... I'm merely developing previously unrecognized potential that was there all along.

As for not being "authorized," well, biblically I'm not forbidden either, and I figure that if it was that big an issue, something would have been said about it.  Suffice to say that if I were to abstain from everything the Bible doesn't have a ruling on just because it might make God angry, I'd never leave the house.

My thought would be, if he wanted you to have them, he would have given them to you and you wouldn't need to take lessons or practise to do them, they'd just be done.

If He wanted us to pray, the disciples wouldn't have had to ask Jesus how (Luke 11:1).  If He wanted us to be moral, then being more like Christ wouldn't be a lifelong process.  If He wanted us to fly around the world, He would have given us wings.  If He wanted us to post on message boards using computers, He would have invented them Himself.

No.

As you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

Unless you've recently undergone a road-to-Damascus conversion experience I haven't heard about, you're not Christian yourself, correct?  So according to your logic, doesn't this mean we'd have to disregard everything you have to say on the matter?  

[paker7]

God is truly omnipotent ! You can't take something from an omnipotent being without his, her or its will. If you think that someone can do something against the will of God then you're placing that individual above God - pure logic. So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely. As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

Well... i wasn't talking about a Christian perception of God - big, grey bearded old man who (according to the Bible) needed 6 whole days to create this tiny planet and who is too weak to  destroy the army of evil demons led by his archenemy Lucifer.

In my opinion God is Everything and i mean really EVERYTHING. To people who like to judge, this means that God is both good and evil at the same time. I'll simply say that God (Everything) is ADEQUATE. My knowledge about God is based on eastern religions (Hinduism etc)

As you don't seem to care about the Bible, or Christ, at all, I'll ignore your contributions to arguing Christian religious theory from now on. Yay, you're #2!

1. There's only one God and nothing else.

2. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

[paker7]

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else" ?

Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH.

That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent.
(sounds like a serious blasphemy to me)

As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

[laiana]

To be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

Ok that's kinda silly.  Don't attempt to learn more than what one already knows?  Does that mean if I don't know how to use a computer, I shouldn't learn that either?  Why should this be not put towards ALL things in life?

I agree with what Palehorse wrote.  I discovered something unusual that I was experiencing, and upon finding out what it was, and what could be done, I decided I wanted to learn more.  

And you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them).  The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

[fuji257]

Tyciol wrote:  

>>Some things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me. <<

So you OBVIOUSLY APPROVE OF RAPE!!  You sick-O!!!!


(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

   Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'

   Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

GOD supplies the raper's their victims!  You "can't really interpret as a metaphor" now can you?  Go ahead and explain it, I've got HUNDREDS* more!

*  HUNDREDS may be a metaphor for ~10-20, just thought you'd like to know since you have troubles with REALITY versus FICTION.

[Palehorse]

And you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them). The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

The Gnostic gospels are certainly interesting, but for the most part they aren't quite as useful as far as getting to the heart of what Jesus really said, since most of them were written so late.  Though I do know that at least Thomas is thought by some to preserve material from an oral tradition that is as old or older than the Jesus material in the canonical gospels, so that's something to consider as well.  Perhaps it's possible that some of the others did too though; Luke alludes to a knowledge of "many" other gospels that were circulating at the time he was putting his together. (Luke 1)

You're like me though, in that I think all available texts should be evaluated based on their own merits and what they have to tell us, rather than basing it on whether or not they happened to make the cut when a group of politically powerful men on Constantine's payroll were deciding what to put in the Bible four centuries after the life of Christ.

Great site with a huge collection of both biblical and extrabiblical scriptures, multiple translations, commentaries, etc:  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com

[Palehorse]

Interesting tidbit re: magic and Christianity...

About a year ago, I learned that a book had been released called Ancient Christian Magic.  It contains a large compilation of papyri that date from around 100CE onward, mostly from the Coptic Christians of north Africa, which contain all sorts of spells, rituals, incantations, herbal recipes and so forth.  

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0691004587/qid=1102127661/sr=8-9/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i9_xgl14/102-6465937-6712941?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

So take that how you will.  I see it as a good example of the diversity of belief and practice that flourished under the umbrella of pre-Nicene Christianity, and a fascinating subject from an academic perspective.  I'm witholding moral judgment until I actually get my hands on a copy, though.

[Berserk]

Dear Palehorse,

Both Jesus and the early church used practices borrowed from Hellenistic magic to cure the sick.  This fact needs three qualifications:  
(1) Unlike contemporary magicians, neither Jesus nor the apostles
    charged money for their use of magical techniques.  
(2) Magicians traditionally believed that if one performed the magic ritual
    correctly, it had to work.  But early Christians recognized that whether
    their techniques worked or not was subject to divine sovereignty.  
(3) In both the Palestinian and the Greco-Roman mission fields, belief in
    the efficacy of magic was widespread.  Its apostolic use served as a
    point of contact to release the faith of those in need.   Many modern
    Christians would shrink in horror at the thought of borrowing from
    occult practices.  But the early Christians care more about what
    worked.  

Here are just a few examples of the early Christian use of techniques borrowed from contemporary magic to heal.  In ancient folk magic, it was popularly believed that a healer's spittle had magical power.  So to heal a deaf mute, Jesus "spit and touched the man's tongue (Mark 7:33)."  To heal the blind man of Bethsaida, Jesus "spit on the man's eyes and laid hands on him (Mark 8:23)."  The man's vision was still blurry; so another prayer session was required to complete the healing.  [Note: if this story were legendary, it would have portrayed Jesus doing the job right the first time!]   This man from Bethsaida had not been born blind.  To heal a man born blind. Jesus made some paste from clay and spittle and smeared it on the man's eyes (John 9:6).  

Similarly, Paul's used the principle of contagious magic to heal the sick:  

"God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that, even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured (Acts 19:11-12)."  

A couple of years ago, I used a type of contagious magic to petition a miracle for a friend and his dying mother.  Russ was in charge of Mall security in a large U.S. city.  His mother was in a Florida nursing home.  She had Altheimer's Disease and was now a vegetable whose death was imminent.  Russ flew down to be at her bedside.  She did not recognize his presence and Russ was dying inside because he wanted closure with his mother about several issues.  So he called his wife and she called me asking for my prayers.

I loved this couple and decided that something radical was necessary.  I attended a small Pentecostal prayer meeting.  The people didn't know me, but responded to my fervent request.  I asked them to lay hands on me as a proxy for Russ's mother.  Had I explained that this was a form of contagious magic, they would of course have been horrified.  But they reacted enthusiastically to my explanation.  I said, "You know neither me nor Russ and his mother.  But Russ and I are good friends.  I believe that through this chain of contact, God can release our faith to help both mother and son."  The power of the Holy Spirit descended upon us and we wept as hands were laid on me.

The next day I learned about the results.  Shortly after our prayer, Russ's Mom came out of her stupor and suddenly recognized Russ.  For over 45 minutes she was totally lucid and Mother and son wept profusely as they reconciled and expressed their deep love for each other.  Then Mom slipped back into her trance and peacefully died.   You can't believe how joyful Russ was for the privilege of bidding his Mom a loving adieu.

Many Christians bristle at the thought that we should analyze the techniques and principles employed by Jesus and the apostles as aids in healing.  But, despite modern miracles, we are not nearly as successful in this respect as the apostles.  So the possibility that our techniques might be part of our problems warrants careful scrutiny.

Palehorse, you might be interested in two very academic books that you might get from a good university library or through inter-library loan:

(1) Morton Smith, "Jesus the Magician (1978)."  
(2) John M. Hull, "Hellenistic Magic and the Synoptic Tradition (1974)."  

Both books fully document the use of techniques borrowed from magic by Jesus and the early church and explain why some of the early anti-Christian critics dismissed Jesus as a practicing magician.   Neither author is a committed Christian, but this fact does not prevent their research from being most instructive.

Berserk

[Tyciol]

Who else can?  Satan?  Biblically, Satan can't do anything God doesn't allow him to.

This gets into the whole God controls everything and he made the evil in Lucifer, designing him to rebel, and thus has evil within him, and isn't perfect, and that we don't really have free will even though he says we do, and the whole she bang. I'd rather we didn't, as it gets messy.

Satan does not possess the ability to do things that are beneficial for us; his name and very nature is "Adversary."  He can't help us for the same reason Jesus dismissed the notion that he was casting out demons in Satan's name as absurd -- because he'd be sabotaging his own motives.

I'm quite certain he could provide beneficial things to convince the person as a form of temptation. For example: he might help you heal a sick orphan, but tell you that to heal the next orphan you might need to kill a chipmunk If sacrificing a lower possessing demon (or better yet, faking the entire possession and exorcism) could gain him a powerful soul that is convinced (and has convinced others) that they are doing God's work, I'm sure he'd be willing to do it. It's not absurd, it just sounds like a simple defense for simple people (for they were simple folk back then) that Jesus made.

Many people incorporate their prayers into their desire for AP ability.

I know that, I'm saying incorporation must be enough. I'm going to use a Jewish comparison because it's easier: if you say grace to God a thousand times before sitting down to some pork chops: you've still sinned. Replace pork with devil magic, and you have my meaning.

Sounds suspiciously like an affirmation to me.

Perhaps. It could also be a way of just getting it out of your mind so you don't keep thinking "when is he going to grant my wish?" every ten minutes. No text subtleties should be overanalyzed from a book your wing seems to continually admit has many translations errors in it.

I believe magic and possession are a completely different issue than astral projection.

The bible never tells you to astrally project, only occult sources do. It's magic, just without the ritual. Magic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

As for being possessed, I don't think I need to get into why it's probably not a good idea to seek out *that* experience.  In contrast, astral projection doesn't have to involve manipulating any deities to do your bidding, so there's really no way to make the same logical connection to idolatry.

It isn't necessary, but I often read of 'Guides' on these boards used to aid in journeys such as astral projection. I assume that every Christian here is opposed to that? There is no telling who is a guide, and who is a demon. The only leader there should be to you is Jesus.

First, biblically there are no especially "important people," only ordinary people that God chose to do extraordinary things

I didn't mean they were important, only that they became important as they were chosen by God. 'Chosen' must be emphasized, they didn't seek power, it was a gift.

Secondly, I'm not "making" anything.

You're developing a supernatural ability. You're remaking your mind, the mind god gave you, in a way the bible doesn't tell you to remake it. A questionable way. See next paragraph...

As for not being "authorized," well, biblically I'm not forbidden either, and I figure that if it was that big an issue, something would have been said about it.  Suffice to say that if I were to abstain from everything the Bible doesn't have a ruling on just because it might make God angry, I'd never leave the house.

Turning into a spirit (which is what you could see an OBE as, or communing with spirits (meeting other astral projectors) is quite obviously against the rulings. The intentions must be extrapolated. As for someone saying something to the contrary, I'm pretty sure if you told your average Christian minister/priest/Reverend that you wanted to astrally project or open up your chakras or channel energies through your body he'd say it was devil's work. The bible says to commune with god, the ONLY thing you need is prayer.

If He wanted us to pray, the disciples wouldn't have had to ask Jesus how (Luke 11:1).  If He wanted us to be moral, then being more like Christ wouldn't be a lifelong process.

These two, you know he wants you to do because your belief system, the bible, is based on it. He sent a messenger, Jesus, as well as told his prophets, that he wanted these done.

If He wanted us to fly around the world, He would have given us wings.  If He wanted us to post on message boards using computers, He would have invented them Himself.

To be quite honest, yes, we don't know whether or not he wanted these or not. Considering that they're both examples of technology, and Jesus was a carpenter, it's not entirely wrong to assume that he's pro-technology. Astral projection on the hand, which is mystic, something spiritual that isn't prayer, something highly preached against, would be suspect. Just as drugs are things you ingest that aren't food, sin is something you ingest spiritually that isn't prayer.

Unless you've recently undergone a road-to-Damascus conversion experience I haven't heard about, you're not Christian yourself, correct?  So according to your logic, doesn't this mean we'd have to disregard everything you have to say on the matter?  

No. When I present my views, I present them according to biblical teachings. Paker7 (nice name!) started gabbing about how his beliefs differed, which said to me that he wasbringing them into this argument. Personal theories about spirituality are not related at all to this. It is only the book, the accepted teachings of the Lord. Arguments must be made from that standpoint.

[Tyciol]

1. There's only one God and nothing else.

Correct! However this is completely off topic as I never said there were other gods, only other things. If you don't think there are other things, you must ignore the many passages about spirits, Satan, demons, and what have you.

2. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

I'm not getting into specific sects of Christianity, and if you think that anyone who goes to a church isn't a Christian, I think you should re-examine your beliefs as many on these boards may disagree with you.

I don't know what Yehoshua is... is that anything like Yahweh? As for respecting it only because 50% of your family and 95% of the people believe it (and I'm curious as to what country this is...) then that is a bad reason to believe in something.

If you do not care about the Bible: where do you get the teachings of Jesus? How do you know his name is Jesus? How do you verify your beliefs are founded upon real things at all? The bible is the only document I know of that true Christian teachings are recorded on. The only other way is word of mouth, which I can tell you right now is totally unreliable about two thousand years.

If you wish to denounce certain Bibles for translation errors that's fine, but denouncing the Holy Bible as a whole is quite un-Christian. Not to say that I'm against doing that

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else"? Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH. That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent. (sounds like a serious blasphemy to me)

No, see if I was trying to tell you that, I would have simply told you that. I'm saying there are creatures, spirits, whatever, other than God, the bible tells you that, and they can be called upon for power, but that power is fleeting and corrupting. Stop overreacting, it annoys me.

As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

You said this:

So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

If God interfered with you doing things because he didn't like them, it wouldn't be free will. So you're wrong.

[Tyciol]

To be safe, one would pray, not attempt to learn more than he already knows, and use the abilities to help people, and never call upon anything while using them but God.

Ok that's kinda silly.  Don't attempt to learn more than what one already knows?  Does that mean if I don't know how to use a computer, I shouldn't learn that either?  Why should this be not put towards ALL things in life?

No, please don't warp my words out of context to seem witty, the term for someone who does that is Smart-Aleck (or something similarly spelled). Computers are technology, astral projection is magic, and I was specifically referring to things in this realm, not all realms. How dare you suggest that I'm against all learning? If we were discussing trying to expel fire from our palms or morph into snakes, I doubt it would be getting as much support. It is only the relative neutrality of OBEs that makes people think it 'might' be allowed as an acceptable Christian practise. This process is called 'weaseling'. You can weasel out of commitments, you can weasel in things that aren't good.

I agree with what Palehorse wrote.  I discovered something unusual that I was experiencing, and upon finding out what it was, and what could be done, I decided I wanted to learn more.

This has what to do with the subject? If I notice I'm being cursed by a devil-worshipper, and learn how to do curses myself, does that make it acceptable?

And you have said that the Bible says this and that, I'm quite interested in what the Gnostic Gospels also say - they weren't included in the mainstream Bible, but we can't necessarily dismiss them entirely (well I can't until I learn a bit more about them).  The Gnostic form of Christianity takes on a WHOLE different meaning when it comes to "Spirituality".

That's fine, but that's for you to make a new religion out of. I'm only referring to long-established Christian sects. Perhaps the reason the Gnostic's testimonials were revoked were that they were in conflict with teachings, absurb, and probably not real god-induced revelations. I wouldn't clump this with generic Christianity any more than I would Mormonism.

[Tyciol]

Some things you can't really interpret as a metaphor when they're direct. The whole "don't use magic" thing sounds pretty clear to me.

So you OBVIOUSLY APPROVE OF RAPE!!  You sick-O!!!!

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
   Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house.  I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor.  He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight.  You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
   Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord."  Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die.  But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die."

GOD supplies the raper's their victims!  You "can't really interpret as a metaphor" now can you?  Go ahead and explain it, I've got ~10-20 (not HUNDREDS) more.

I'd love to hear them all. To clarify, I'm against rape, as while I present biblical ideas I do not follow them in the slightest. So, please go on, I have quite a few Old Testament travesties under my sleeve myself. It really helped break me of the traditions I was raised with I find it interesting you would call them fiction I won't present my own personal views on that as it may offend the people on this board, and I prefer to remain civil with them.

By the way, it would be rapists, not raper's.

[paker7]

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

1. There's only one God and nothing else.

Correct! However this is completely off topic as I never said there were other gods, only other things. If you don't think there are other things, you must ignore the many passages about spirits, Satan, demons, and what have you.

How is this off topic ?
I just replied to your statement.

2. I don't care about the Bible and churchianity, but i respect Yehoshua and true Christianity because half of my family and more than 95% of people living in my country are Christians.

I'm not getting into specific sects of Christianity, and if you think that anyone who goes to a church isn't a Christian, I think you should re-examine your beliefs as many on these boards may disagree with you.

I don't know what Yehoshua is... is that anything like Yahweh? As for respecting it only because 50% of your family and 95% of the people believe it (and I'm curious as to what country this is...) then that is a bad reason to believe in something.

It is very hard to be a true Christian.
If someone calls himself a Christian and believes in 100% of what is written in the Bible and knows that the true name of the man who "died for our sins" is Yehoshua (or Yahweh is Salvation) - then he is a Christian, if not - he is only a hypocrite.

where do you get the teachings of Jesus? How do you know his name is Jesus?

His name is not Jesus !

This assumes that the abilities here would be calling upon God at all, and not something else entirely.

What is this "something else"? Are you trying to tell me that there is something OUT OF GOD'S REACH. That would mean that God in your opinion is not 100% omnipotent. (sounds like a serious blasphemy to me)

No, see if I was trying to tell you that, I would have simply told you that. I'm saying there are creatures, spirits, whatever, other than God, the bible tells you that, and they can be called upon for power, but that power is fleeting and corrupting. Stop overreacting, it annoys me.

Overreacting ? Who ? Me ? Hehehehe i'm as cool as an outer space.

As for not doing anything against the will of god, free will allows just that.

God gave you free will because that was his will.

So your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will.

Can you understand now ?

You said this:

So if you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it, it's as simple as that.

If God interfered with you doing things because he didn't like them, it wouldn't be free will. So you're wrong.

And i'll say again:

God gave you free will because that was his will.

Based on the above statement the following two statements must be true:

"Your free will is God's free will and the only possibility of going against God's will would be not exercising your God given free will."

If you want the power of for example astral travel - you just have to try and take it - if God objects, you will not get it.

[Tyciol]

Would anyone here like to support paker7's arguments in any shape or form? If so, I'll reply, otherwise, I'd prefer to just reply to other posters, it's hard to make him see straight.

[Palehorse]

This gets into the whole God controls everything and he made the evil in Lucifer, designing him to rebel, and thus has evil within him, and isn't perfect, and that we don't really have free will even though he says we do, and the whole she bang. I'd rather we didn't, as it gets messy.

It gets messy because it's not biblical.  The whole "perfect angel who fell from Heaven" story is based on a misinterpretation of Isaiah 14:12, which, as we can see at the beginning of the passage, is directed at the (human) king of Babylon.  Biblically, Satan has been "sinning from the beginning" (1 Jn 3:4).  As I said, his name and very nature is "Adversary," and he was created that way for a reason.

I'm quite certain he could provide beneficial things to convince the person as a form of temptation.

Your certainty is not based on what the Bible actually has to say about Satan's nature and works.  He can offer the *illusion* of benefit, as he did when he tempted Christ, but he cannot ultimately offer us anything of substance, and there is no biblical precedent for the idea that he has any healing ability.

I'm going to use a Jewish comparison because it's easier: if you say grace to God a thousand times before sitting down to some pork chops: you've still sinned. Replace pork with devil magic, and you have my meaning.

And how do you know you've sinned?  Because it says so explicitly in their scriptures.  Not so with astral projection.

The bible never tells you to astrally project, only occult sources do.

There is at least one biblical instance where John the Revelator was "in the spirit on the Lord's day" and only *then* did God start giving him the revelations that eventually composed the last book of the Bible.  Now, I realize there are a few possible ways you could take that, but it sounds to me like he had already projected on his own, and the angel met him there.  The same ambiguity is seen when Paul talks about "a man" (who is believed to be Paul himself) was "caught up to the third heaven -- whether in body or out of body, I don't know, God knows."  

It's magic, just without the ritual.

Then according to the biblical definition, it isn't magic.

However, I don't believe it's magic by *any* definition.  Every source I've seen has stated that it's a normal human phenomenon that occurs every night at the onset of sleep.  The experiences that originally lead me to this site lead me to believe they're right.  Thus, I don't think it's "magic" any more than electricity was magic before we figured out that we could control it and put it to use.

Magic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

The exact same logic is used by Christian Scientists to condemn medical intervention, and they're wrong for the same reason.  You seem to be reading this "Pandora's box" mentality regarding knowledge and experience into the text that may well have characterized the medieval Roman church and modern Christian fundamentalism, but is not found or encouraged anywhere in the Bible.  If anything, Jesus explicitly stated that many of his impressive works were done, at least in part, to show us what we're capable of.

It isn't necessary, but I often read of 'Guides' on these boards used to aid in journeys such as astral projection. I assume that every Christian here is opposed to that?

I'm can't speak for every Christian, but I personally am wary of such "guides" for the same reason I'd be wary of any anonymous random stranger who showed up and started trying to give me advice.  That said, I've never encountered a non-physical entity, and if I did I would probably treat them with the same respect I'd show to any human being.  And, if they had something they felt it necessary to share with me, I'd evaluate it with the same critical thinking skills I'd put toward any other person's advice.  

There is no telling who is a guide, and who is a demon. The only leader there should be to you is Jesus.

Sure there is -- that's what "testing the spirits" is all about.  But yeah, I think that's probably where the warnings against mediumship came from -- there's no reliable way to tell whether that invisible entity is really your dearly departed mother, or just someone claiming to be her in order to manipulate you for whatever reason.

However, I'd think that on the astral plane, the playing field would be a bit more level as far as getting a better idea of what you're dealing with.  And while I agree that my only "leader" is Jesus, I'd also say that my teacher could be anyone who has more knowledge and experience in a given field than I do, whether physical or not.  I'd also add that respect of that nature has to be earned.

You're developing a supernatural ability. You're remaking your mind, the mind god gave you, in a way the bible doesn't tell you to remake it. A questionable way. See next paragraph...

Like I've said, I don't believe it's "supernatural" at all, but rather a natural phenomenon not yet fully understood by the mainstream.  And again, I don't believe I'm remaking my mind anymore than a bodybuilder is remaking his muscles.  I'm developing dormant potential that exists in every human being... which, I might add, was a major theme of Jesus' message.

Turning into a spirit (which is what you could see an OBE as,

But I don't; otherwise I'd call it "astral transformation."  I see it merely as projecting a copy of my consciousness outside of my physical body.

or communing with spirits (meeting other astral projectors) is quite obviously against the rulings.

Again, you're reading something into the text that simply isn't there.  According to your logic, if John the Revelator and the apostle Paul happened to be "in the spirit" on the same day and ran into each other, they'd be sinning.

There simply is no biblical precedent for any ruling about meeting other APers... although the scenario above does make the idea of a negative ruling seem rather ludicrous.

The intentions must be extrapolated.

Indeed they must... since they aren't in there to begin with.  This is a good example of eisegesis in action.

As for someone saying something to the contrary, I'm pretty sure if you told your average Christian minister/priest/Reverend that you wanted to astrally project or open up your chakras or channel energies through your body he'd say it was devil's work.

This means very little to me, since I'd say the same of the offices of minister/priest/reverend themselves.  They aren't in the Bible and didn't exist in the 1st century, so as far as I'm concerned they have no inherent spiritual authority.  They do, however, have institutions and hierarchichal interests to uphold, which is why I'd examine anything they had to say in light of that at the very least.  However, if they could demonstrate that they'd studied all the relevant issues and present a convincing case while coming off as honestly having my best interest at heart, I would consider it based on its own merits.

But anyway, you could probably also find many clergy members who would be open to AP.  In particular, there have been Christian mystics all throughout Church history who have engaged in these things; some of which had official status, and some didn't.  It should be said however that most of them simply saw projection, miracles, visions, etc. as just another step on the road to full union with God, and not something to be valued for their own sake.  I just happen to disagree with them on that point -- IMO we have eternity to achieve full divine union, and I feel there's also something to be said for enjoying all one's experiences along the way.  Good site on Christian mysticism: www.christianmystics.com

The bible says to commune with god, the ONLY thing you need is prayer.

Chapter and verse?

These two, you know he wants you to do because your belief system, the bible, is based on it. He sent a messenger, Jesus, as well as told his prophets, that he wanted these done.

Indeed... but that doesn't make your assertion that if God wanted us to do something, it would be automatic and not require effort, any less illogical.  Many things are undertaken for the lessons learned in the effort as much as the end result.  I would put AP in that category.  I believe (with biblical precedence) that being "in spirit" is our natural state moreso than the physical is -- but part of the reason we come here and are put in a position where we have to relearn to be spiritual, is so we'll gain a fuller appreciation for what it is to be spiritual as well as physical.

To be quite honest, yes, we don't know whether or not he wanted these or not.

Too bad He never got around to smiting that first primate who picked up a rock to bash open a nut, then.  Just look what happened!

Seriously, I would guess that there's no ruling in the Bible about developing the inherent faculties we've been given, because the fact that we have them to begin with is evidence enough.  We have, however, been given ethical guidelines for their use... which is, for instance, the difference between using fire to cook your food, and using it to burn down your neighbor's house.  

I would tend to wonder if someone who knew they had the ability to AP and didn't use it would come before God at the moment of death, only to have Him ask "why didn't you?"

It is only the book, the accepted teachings of the Lord. Arguments must be made from that standpoint.

Then I'd recommend giving up the medieval/fundamentalist shtick, and start debating from what the Bible actually says.

[Palehorse]

I'd love to hear them all. To clarify, I'm against rape, as while I present biblical ideas I do not follow them in the slightest. So, please go on, I have quite a few Old Testament travesties under my sleeve myself. It really helped break me of the traditions I was raised with I find it interesting you would call them fiction I won't present my own personal views on that as it may offend the people on this board, and I prefer to remain civil with them.

While I respect your desire to remain civil, I wanted to say that I, for one, will not be offended by anything you might have to say on the subject, and I hope others won't either.  Getting offended is generally pointless and counterproductive.  

My take on all the questionable OT material is simply that the ancient Israelites were a group of people who'd had an encounter with a transcendental God, but were still nonetheless largely stuck in the prevalent tribal god mentality of their day.  Both images come through loud and clear throughout the OT, though it's interesting to watch the former eclipse the latter as time (and with it, lessons and experience) moves on.  As I recently posted in another community about one of said atrocities:  

I consider it a simple case of Judah letting their tribal god mentality show. The belief in a local god who would help your nation win its wars of conquest was extremely prevalent back then (and even seen in certain administrations today), and even the ancient Israelites were not immune to its influence. It's certainly a convenient belief to hold, as it literally lets you get away with murder under the guise of "doing God's work," and as we see here, if you lose the war, you don't have to take the blame for it. Pretty sweet deal, if you're into that sort of thing. But I don't believe it accurately reflects the reality of who God is and what He wants from us.

So yeah, that's about where I'm at on this.

[laiana]

That's fine, but that's for you to make a new religion out of. I'm only referring to long-established Christian sects. Perhaps the reason the Gnostic's testimonials were revoked were that they were in conflict with teachings, absurb, and probably not real god-induced revelations. I wouldn't clump this with generic Christianity any more than I would Mormonism.

Again, I am not rock solid on this, as I haven't done enough research (and I will admit to that, Smart Aleck or not) but from what I understand, those who followed the Gnostic Gospels believed that were teachings were handed down only those who were spiritually "mature" to handle such subjects.  It was not something for the "masses".

They were in conflict with the teachings that the church was able to use to appeal to the masses - don't forget that the gospels that were chosen for the Bible in the first place, were chosen by people, not God or Jesus.  Once could argue that those who chose the gospels for the Bible were "divinely inspired" or some rubbish, but it was probably more "politically" inspired than anything else.

By the way, its "Absurd" not "Absurb".  (Thank god for Spelling Cow!)  

PS - Palehorse - man, I do love reading what you write.  I just wish that I could make sense of things to be as articulate on the subject as you are.  Oh well, with a little more learning and research I am sure i will be one day.

[fuji257]

I understand Palehores view on OT atrocities.  I also fully understand other views on this as presented.

BUT I believe the whole point I'm trying to make is being missed all together.

WHY is it SO EASY to write off the approval of RAPE, KILLING etc. in the OT but when someone writes off ASTRAL PROJECTION or Witchcraft etc. its like unheard of!  You CANNOT have it both ways!!!!  

If you think that WITCHCRAFT ETC. is bad JUST BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO then you MUST also APPROVE of RAPE, KILLING DISOBEDIENT CHILDREN etc. because the bible "says so" too.

If you can write off RAPE etc. then I can write off Witchcraft.

If you write off one group and not the other you are taking a theology (or what you already believe) and trying to make the bible fit it (which it does not).  IF you respect the bible as the word of GOD you would try to interpret it as accurate as possible and extrapolate a theology from there - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

[Palehorse]

from what I understand, those who followed the Gnostic Gospels believed that were teachings were handed down only those who were spiritually "mature" to handle such subjects.  It was not something for the "masses".

The Gnostics weren't the only ones who engaged in such practices -- the proto-orthodox did too.  Do some googling on "doctrine of reserve," and you'll see what I mean.  There was this prevalent idea that there were certain doctrines that, although true, should remain secret because new converts and the "spiritually immature" were not ready for them.  If you search for that phrase on tentmaker.org, you'll find one example... they assert that this was done regarding the doctrine of eternal torment (thought to be needed in order to scare people into morality) vs. universal reconciliation.

Anyway, though I can't provide any sources (which isn't surprising if these things were kept in secret) it wouldn't surprise me if there did exist a body of mystical Christian teaching, similar to Jewish Kabballah, that included astral projection, as AP certainly would fit into the category of "for spiritually mature eyes only" IMO.

 Once could argue that those who chose the gospels for the Bible were "divinely inspired" or some rubbish, but it was probably more "politically" inspired than anything else.

I would say that it was both.  I think the choice of books that went into the Bible was definitely politically motivated.  However, if we take it as a given that God is omnipotent/omniscient, then it seems to become necessary to acknowledge that He had a hand in it too.

PS - Palehorse - man, I do love reading what you write.  I just wish that I could make sense of things to be as articulate on the subject as you are.  Oh well, with a little more learning and research I am sure i will be one day.

Eh, you could probably attribute it moreso to my needing to get a life.    But thank you, that means a lot.  

Oh, and Berserk, I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your post.  I want to reply somewhat at length, but I don't have time right now, finals week and whatnot.  I'm thinking about making the subject of "a method to the miracles" a thread of its own since it's kind of a tangent in this one, but until then I'll just say you've definitely given me more to think about.

[Tyciol]

Satan has been "sinning from the beginning" (1 Jn 3:4).  As I said, his name and very nature is "Adversary," and he was created that way for a reason.

Beginning was relative. For example, in the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth, and Lucifer fell before the earth was even created, or at least before man was, as he took the form of the snake to tempt them. So technically, if he fell before the earth was created, it would still be in the beginning. Some time must have passed between heaven and earth.

He can offer the *illusion* of benefit, as he did when he tempted Christ, but he cannot ultimately offer us anything of substance, and there is no biblical precedent for the idea that he has any healing ability.

I know all this. My question is how you know it's not all illusions put forth before you by him?

How do you know you've sinned?  Because it says so explicitly in their scriptures.  Not so with astral projection.

I'm tired of hearing this. Witchcraft, channeling, talking to spirits and all that stuff is explicitly denied in the Bible, the argument is whether or not things like astral projection would be classed under it. Don't bring this up again.

John the Revelator was "in the spirit on the Lord's day". I realize there are a few possible ways you could take that, but it sounds to me like he had already projected on his own, and the angel met him there.

It's an unclear passage, you can't base your defense on that. I'm in the spirit to go outside today, for example, it doesn't mean I'm a ghost.

The same ambiguity is seen when Paul talks about "a man" (who is believed to be Paul himself) was "caught up to the third heaven -- whether in body or out of body, I don't know, God knows."  

I'm guessing that's because they couldn't find his body. Sometimes only people's spirits go to Heaven, with their corpse remaining. Then you have cases like Jesus where the body is taken up too.

It's magic, just without the ritual.

Then according to the biblical definition, it isn't magic.

No, you can pray to Satan for something and still have it be magic without dressing up and waving wands. Similarly, if you can speak to spirits without lavishment, it's still necromancy (or spiritmancy, whatever).

However, I don't believe it's magic by *any* definition.  Every source I've seen has stated that it's a normal human phenomenon that occurs every night at the onset of sleep.  The experiences that originally lead me to this site lead me to believe they're right.  Thus, I don't think it's "magic" any more than electricity was magic before we figured out that we could control it and put it to use.

Perhaps, but until that day comes along, with an issue so closely linked to spiritualism (unlike electricity which can be readily observed in nature) it's best to let those without religious inclinations fully explore it for you. Funny, I thought we dreamed at night, and that it was for the most part the mind reviewing your subconcious thoughts and things. Thinking that everyone naturally astrally projects is interesting, but before it's known, you're spirit surfing.

Magic, psionics, energy work, whatever you want to call it, it's not biblically defined only as praying to false idols. Actually trying to produce effects is NEVER EVER EVER done in the bible. No, you simply pray, ask what you want of God, and leave it to Him to engineer it.

The exact same logic is used by Christian Scientists to condemn medical intervention, and they're wrong for the same reason.  You seem to be reading this "Pandora's box" mentality regarding knowledge and experience into the text that may well have characterized the medieval Roman church and modern Christian fundamentalism, but is not found or encouraged anywhere in the Bible.  If anything, Jesus explicitly stated that many of his impressive works were done, at least in part, to show us what we're capable of.

Capable of with tangible observable definable and definitely physical sciences. Even when you get into genetic and fetus work, it's just incredibly small. At the point when you begin trying to leave your body (the body god put you in that you're supposed to leave when you die), it gets into the other realm. While I'm sure there's a scientific and natural explanation for it too, I'm sure there's similarly one for all the possessed men speaking in tongues back then if you really get down to it. Considering you're not healing anyone, I wouldn't exactly say the motivations are so unselfish.

I don't believe it's "supernatural" at all, but rather a natural phenomenon not yet fully understood by the mainstream.  And again, I don't believe I'm remaking my mind anymore than a bodybuilder is remaking his muscles.  I'm developing dormant potential that exists in every human being... which, I might add, was a major theme of Jesus' message.

This is, I suppose, where our opinions differ. If you believe everything is natural, then even satan and demons are natural, and there's no problem contacting them, because they're just scientific phenomena. Despite this, I don't think the Bible would support the endeavour.

But I don't; otherwise I'd call it "astral transformation."  I see it merely as projecting a copy of my consciousness outside of my physical body.

A copy of your conciousness is the same as your spirit. Can I assume you're fully away of everything happening to your body while astrally projecting over China? If so, perhaps you truly have copied your consciousness, in which case you have created a spirit.

Again, you're reading something into the text that simply isn't there.  According to your logic, if John the Revelator and the apostle Paul happened to be "in the spirit" on the same day and ran into each other, they'd be sinning.

I don't think they did at all. If they did, by my definitions they would have already sinned by projecting, so sin upon meeting isn't really a major factor. The wording doesn't say they did though.

There simply is no biblical precedent for any ruling about meeting other APers... although the scenario above does make the idea of a negative ruling seem rather ludicrous.

Indeed they must... since they aren't in there to begin with.  This is a good example of eisegesis in action.

Christians extrapolate a lot of morals which aren't specifically denoted actions in the Bible based upon the message in the other commandments. Is there anything in the new testament condemning the raping in the old, or telling people not to?

Also, what does eisegesis mean? I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in not knowing the meaning of the word, and I really would prefer not to look it up. Isn't there anyother term that might have been used? Pride is sin!

But anyway, you could probably also find many clergy members who would be open to AP.  In particular, there have been Christian mystics all throughout Church history who have engaged in these things; some of which had official status, and some didn't.  It should be said however that most of them simply saw projection, miracles, visions, etc. as just another step on the road to full union with God, and not something to be valued for their own sake.  I just happen to disagree with them on that point -- IMO we have eternity to achieve full divine union, and I feel there's also something to be said for enjoying all one's experiences along the way.  Good site on Christian mysticism: www.christianmystics.com

That's neat, but considering Christian Mystics are the ones whose Christianity I'm questioning, they're the worst reference you could use for it, unless they have more convincing arguments.

Chapter and verse?

Oh bleh I dunno, I remember getting that idea so it's in there, someone find it. I wish I could remember that on-line bible with a search engine for phrases...

Indeed... but that doesn't make your assertion that if God wanted us to do something, it would be automatic and not require effort, any less illogical.  Many things are undertaken for the lessons learned in the effort as much as the end result.  I would put AP in that category.  I believe (with biblical precedence) that being "in spirit" is our natural state more so than the physical is -- but part of the reason we come here and are put in a position where we have to relearn to be spiritual, is so we'll gain a fuller appreciation for what it is to be spiritual as well as physical.

It's not the natural state at all. The natural state would be the one you're first created in, which is the flesh. Again, I have criticized that 'in spirit' phrase. While sweating is a good image of the hard-working Christian farmer, it doesn't mean all things that take effort are good. The analogy I was making wasn't even related to that anyway, it was that God chose these men to channel his power through, they did not seek it out. So why should one seek it out? Curiosity is enough to become a priest, not become a miracle worker. God should choose to work his miracles through you, you shouldn't choose to try and work them by pulling him through you to do things that are more prevalent in mysticism than in the scriptures.

Too bad He never got around to smiting that first primate who picked up a rock to bash open a nut, then.  Just look what happened!

Are you perhaps forgetting the whole Eden scandal? Man ate the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, and clothed himself, and was punished for it. You might say he was punished for disobeying, but if you think of it that way, it's cruel to punish all his offspring for it too. That's another reason the 'original sin' comes up, and it's often thought that perhaps sex was what it was a euphemism for.

Seriously, I would guess that there's no ruling in the Bible about developing the inherent faculties we've been given, because the fact that we have them to begin with is evidence enough.  We have, however, been given ethical guidelines for their use... which is, for instance, the difference between using fire to cook your food, and using it to burn down your neighbor's house.

This is assuming they are inherent, and that you've always had them. People have the capability to sin from birth, the devil tempts you from the day you're born, giving you the 'illusion' of power might be part of it, to distract you from prayer: the only pure form of godly communion.

I would tend to wonder if someone who knew they had the ability to AP and didn't use it would come before God at the moment of death, only to have Him ask "why didn't you?"

Consider that to the alternative: not even getting to come before him because they kicked you out at the gate.

Then I'd recommend giving up the medieval/fundamentalist shtick, and start debating from what the Bible actually says.

I haven't read it all, and even if I did I wouldn't remember it all by heart. I don't have the time, or the interest. I do know what other Christians tell me and general Christian ideas, and I do like to dispel them if ever someone were to correct me

[fuji257]

Just a thought here.

Obviously, I am not a Christian.  The reason I found this website to begin with is that I have (and continue) to suffer from a phenomenon which is called by different names:

Awareness During Sleep Paralyzation
Night Terrors
Astral Projection (involuntary)

These episodes started occurring to me when I was an early teen, at that time I was a Baptist.

This phenomenon happens to me on a regular basis.  While I will not claim (yet) to be a card carrying Zen Buddhist, I have currently taken refuge in a Soto Zen perspective on the phenomenon:

It is a pointless distraction created by my ego.  Created out of fear that "I" do not exist.  I must ignore it, simply because it does not represent reality, other than the fact that it can most likely be scientifically explained.

If you have the time and really want to experience AP,NT/ADSP its real simple.  

1. Stay awake as long as you can.
2. Chase a couple of Melentonin (sp) (available at any GNC or such) with some strong coffee (or Mountain Dew! ).
3. Try to sleep.

(if Melentonin has no effect try DMAE (dimethyl-amino-ethanol) or plenty of B vitamins)

Of course, as per disscusion here that may be a sin via Christian standards.  But what about those of us for whom it is completely involuntary?  Are we/they possesed by demons or Satan or some such nonsense?