JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY REVEALED AS MYTH

[outofbodydude]

The Christian faith is based on the belief that the Bible is indeed the word of god. If the Bible cannot be shown to be inspired, then the Christian faith could be said to be false and no more than a farce. If the Bible cannot be shown to be inspired, then Christianity can be said to be the same as any other religion that has been devised and practiced by man. 

The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible. 

We are taught in our culture that Jesus is the divine hero, but other cultures have different saviors. Religious beliefs are a function of the culture in which one lives. If we had been reared in a different culture, we would have heard the story of a different savior, instead of the Jesus story. Upon comparing the stories of the different saviors, one finds that the similarities are so striking, it is beyond a doubt that they are more than just a coincidence.
Now, let's take a look at the facts.
Jesus is called the lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world. Talk about an old concept.  Vitually all the ancient religions in the world had a lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world. The buddists today, an ancient priesthood far in access to christianity,  have a religions leader called the Dali Lama...whos names translates to god's lamb.   
Some examples of past religious leaders such as jesus being represented with a lamb, dating far before chrisitianity,
as depicted by ancient statues and artifacts include the ancient turkish god and the lamb, the ancient greek god and the lamb, and the ancient roman god and the lamb.  (Sorry I have left the photographs out)

Amen Ra is the egytian god who represented the sun. He had an adversary, named Set.  Sound familiar, such as Jesus and his adversary Satan?  The resemblances between Jesus and Ra, and all of the other saviors of mankind, are just too many. Let's compare these famous "sons of god."  Well compare Jesus,  Horus of egypt, Chrishna of Entia, and Buddha of the Orient.  Just keep in mind that Horus, Chrishna, and Buddha were created far before the story of Jesus was.

***Horus was baptised by water by anup:::Jesus baptised by water by John
***Annab the baptiser:::John the baptist
***Horus born in Annu, the place of bread:::Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread
***Horus the good shepherd with the crook upon his shoulders:::Jesus the good shepherd the with lamb or kid upon his shoulders
***The seven on board the bark with Horus:::The seven fishers on board the bark with Jesus
***Horus as the lamb::: Jesus as the lamb
***Horus as the lion::: Jesus as the lion
***Horus as the black child:::Jesus as the little black bambino
***Horus identified with the tat or cross:::Jesus identified with the cross
***Horus 30 yrs old at his baptism:::Jesus 30 yrs old at his baptism
***Horus the krst:::Jesus the christ
***Horus the manifesting son of god::: Jesus the manifesting son of god
***Two mothers of child Horus who were sisters:::Two mothers of child Jesus who were sisters
***Horus the sower and Set the destroyer in the harvest field:::Jesus the sower of the good seed and satan the sower of tares
***Set and Horus contending on the mount::: Jesus and satan contending on the mount
***The star, as announcer of the child Horus:::The star in the east that indicated the birthplace of Jesus
***Horus the afflicted one:::Jesus the afflicted one
***Horus as the type of life eternal:::Jesus as the type of eternal life
***Horus who comes to fulfill the law::: Jesus who comes to fulfill the law
***Horus who came by the blood, the water, and the spirit::: Jesus who came by the blood, the water, and the spirit
***Horus of the two horizons::: Jesus of the two lands
***Horus walking on the water::: Jesus walking on the water
***Horus entering the mount at sunset to hold conversation with his father::: Jesus entering the mount at sunset to hold conversation with his father
***12 followers of Horus as har-khutti:::12 followers of Jesus as the 12 disciples
***The secret of the mysteries revealed by taht-aan:::The secret of the mysteries made known by john
***Anup and Aan the two witnesses for Horus::: John and John as witnesses for Jesus
***Horus the morning star:::Jesus the morning star

***Buddha was born of the virgin Maya who concieved him without intercourse::: Jesus was born of the virgin Mary who concieved him without intercourse
***The incarnation of Buddha was brought about by the desent of the divine power called the holy ghost, upon the virgin Maya::: The incarnation of Jesus was brought about by the desent of the divine power called the holy ghost, upon the virgin Mary   
***Buddha was visited by wise men who recognized in this marvelous infant all the characcters of the divinity::: Jesus was visited by wise men who recognized in this marvelous infant all the characcters of the divinity
***When Buddha was an infant, he spoke to his mother and said, i am the greatest among men::: When Jesus was an infant, he spoke to his mother and said, i am Jesus, the son of god
***When Buddha died and was buried, the coverings of the body unrolled themselves and the lid of his coffin was opened:::When Jesus died and was buried, the coverings of the body unrolled themselves and his tomb was opened 
***Buddha ascended bodily to the celestial regions, when his mission on earth was fullfilled:::Jesus ascended bodily to the celestial regions, when his mission on earth was fullfilled
***Buddha is alpha and omega, without beginning or end, the supreme being, the eternal one:::Jesus is alpha and omega, without beginning or end, the supreme being, the eternal one
***Buddha is to come upon the earth again in the latter days, his mission being to restore the world order and happiness:::Jesus is to come upon the earth again in the latter days, his mission being to restore the world order and happiness


***Crishna was born of a chaste virgin:::Jesus was born of a chaste virgin
***The moment Chrishna was born, the whole cave was splendidly illuminated::: The moment Jesus was born, there was a great light in the cave
***Chrishna was adored by cowherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child:::Jesus was adored by shepherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child
***Chrishna was born when Nanda, his foster father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the king::: Jesus was born when joseph, his foster father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the governor
***Chrishna's father was warned by a 'heavenly voice" to fly with the child to gacool, across the river jumna, as the reigning monarch sought his life::: Jesus' father was warned in a dream to take the young child and his mother, and flee into egypt, as the reigning monarch sought his life
***The ruler of the country in which Chrishna was born ordered the massacre of all the children of the male sex born during the night of the birth of Chrishna::: The ruler of the country in which Jesus was born ordered all children in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, to be slain
***One of Chrishna's first miracles was the curing of a leper::: One of Jesus'  first miracles was the curing of a leper
***Chrishna was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross, Jesus was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross
***Chrishna after being put to death, rose from the dead::: Jesus after being put to death, rose from the dead
***Chrishna, although born in a state the most abject and humiliating, was of royal descent::: Jesus although born in a state the most abject and humiliating, was of royal descent

Is this a coincidence? There is a lot of similarity and syncronicity going on for it to just be a coincidence.

Lets go back 10 thousand years before Jesus and look at the 16 other men who claimed to be the son of god, who were born of a virgin mother, whose mother had the name of Mary, or a dirivative of the word Mary, who were in the temple teaching/scoulding their elders by the age of 12, whose ruler of land tried to put them to death,  who were asked by someone greater than they to move from the land they were born in, who began their ministry at the age of 30, and ended it at 33, and were killed on the cross.  These events happend in 16 different events prior to jesus.  Here is a list of these men who led the same exact lives:
Chrishna of India, 1200 BC
Hindoo Sakia 600 BC
Thammuz  of Seria 1160 BC
Wittoba 552 BC
Iao of Napal 422 BC
Hesus 834 BC
Quexalcote of Mexico 587 BC
Quirinus of Rome 506 BC
Prometheus 547 BC
Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC
Indra of Tibet 725 BC
Alcestos 600 BC
Atys 1170 BC
Crite of Caldia 1200 BC
Bali 725 BC
Mithra of Persia 600 BC

Time and time again, we have to look at these simliarities. You can look up any of these men up, and will find their lives are full of syncronicity and similarity.  We're not dealing with myth, belief systems, or faith.  We're dealing with facts, historical data. It is there, you cannot set it aside.  Jesus had the same life, and did the same things, as Chrishna, Buddha, and the above 16 other men. 

So this leads to the question... who have we been worshiping? Or what?
What or who have we been living for?
And most importantly, what or who has man been killing man for? 
Remember, religion has killed more human beings than any other force on earth.

The answer gets plane and obvious upon taking a close look at the new testament.

I'm going to make a statement that many people in denial will not want to hear, but i will prove the point soon enough.  The bible is nothing more than a retelling of the most ancient story ever told, which is why the bible is called the greatest story ever told.  This story is the story of the zodiac. Astrology. The bible is nothing more than the greatest astrological story ever told. It is pure astrology, based on the zodiac. It is astrotheology, the worsihp of the gods heaven.

In ancient times the air was divided into 12 equal parts, just as it is today by the 12 months. Each part is called a zodiac, or a house. The sun travels through each house of the zodiac, which is why the son of god had 12 helpers in the Egyptian myth, and 12 disciples in the Christian myth.  The zodiac is then broken into 4 equal parts, forming the shape of a cross.(hmm where have i seen this before?)

In the book of John in the New Testiment 14*2 , Jesus said... "in my fathers house there are many masions."  This was not correctly translated, as were many other scriptures in the king james. This translation makes no sense.  It is actually, "in my fathers abode, there are many dwelling places."  Well of course, there are 12 houses(dwelling places) in the heavens that we know of, which are in "my fathers abode." 

In Jobe, chapter 38*31, god says to Jobe.... "canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?   
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season?"  What are we talking about here?  Pleiades and Orion are two astrological symbols of the zodiac.  But wait.. I thought astrology is the devil?  It's that "new age" stuff?  Yet it is right here, in the bible.  From the King James bible, the word mazzaroth means the 12 signs of the zodiac. Therefore god is saying, "can thou bring forth the zodiac in his season?"  Were talking astrology here.

Lets take a look at the "end times" of the bible.  From Mathew 14*17, Jesus fed his followers two fishes.  These two fishes are the symbol of pisces.  Therefore gods son, that comes up in the morning, feeds his people of two fishes.  This is why fish are such a symbolic theme of chrisitanity. You will find this symbol on mostly all churches.  The "birth of Jesus" was the begining of the age of pisces, and Rome ruled the world for 2 thousand years under the age of pisces, and of course we all know Rome is where chiristianity was born.  When gods son leaves the age of pisces, he goes into the age of aquarious. This age is symoblized by the man with the water pitcher.  From Luke 22*10,  when Jesus is asked where he will begin his new kingdom, he says, "when ye are entered into the city, there shall be a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water, follow him into the house where he entereth in."  A man with a pitcher of water? OHHH you mean aqurarious? Symbolized by the man holding a pitcher of water.  Gotcha.

Mathew 28*20.. and surely i am with you always, until the very end of the age
Mathew 12*32.. the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come
Mathew 13*39.. the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels. as the weeds are pulled up and burned in the first, so it will be at the end of the age
Yes, the end of the age.  That is what were talking about here.  The end of the pisces age. The last days, of the pisces age.

Mark 10*29.. and in the age to come, eternal life 
Luke 18*30.. the kingdom of god will fail to receieve many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.
Corithians 6.. we speak a message of the wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age.
Revalations 15*3.. god almighty, king of the ages.
What were talking about here is ages.  The old age of pisces, and what were looking forward to is the kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth, and that kingdom is the kingdom of the man with the pitcher of water(luke22*10), the new age of aquarious.  when you hear Christians talking about the end of days, the end times, what it really means is the end of the age of pisces, and the begining of the age of aquarious.

So where does Jesus, Chrishna, Horus, or any of the other 16 "saviors" fit into this? They represent the sun, the sun in the sky that comes up every morning and sets every evening(hmm perhaps that is why Amen Ra's enemy was Set).  The ancient Egyptians believed that as long as the sun came up every day, there would always be life on earth. Therefore the sun represented eternal life. so quite logically, all religions feeature the sun as its principle and most important feature.  Or as the religions say, the "son" of god.   

The Egyptians saw that on their sun dials, in winter(winter represented the coldness of death) as the dial moved south,  it reached a point in its movement at the time of sunset, and did not move further for 3 days.  Therefore the ancients said the sun of god dies for three days.  It was said that the son of god dies for 3 days, and is ressurected after those 3 days, once the sun begins its anual journey back to the northern hemisphere.  This anual date is December 25.  Therefore, it is said that the son of god is born on this date.  These ancients believed that the sun was everlasting life, for it supported life on earth. As long as the son had risen, there will always be light and life.  All earth life systems require the sun for life, use the suns energy, and therefore they said the sun was giving up its life for us.  Of course, not in the literal sense, but sure enough it was translated that way.  Do you ever wonder why the sun is in so many religious pictures, espeically those of Jesus?

In revalations 1*7, it says "behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye should see him."  Well of course. There is only one light of the world that every eye can see. The sun.
Jesus walked on water. Well have you ever seen the sunset on a body of water?  Seems like it is "walking" on it, doesn't it?
Jesus died with a crown of thorns. These thorns actually represent the sun's rays.
Christ will rise. Christ has risen. Christ will rise again.  We all hear that in church.  But how strange, isn't that what the sun does?

The sun orbits throughout all of the constilations.  When the sun enters a constilation, it enters it at the 30th degree.  When the sun leaves that constilation, it leaves at the 33rd degree.  This is just simple science.  But doesn't it sound familiar?  How about, god's son begins his ministry at 30 years old, and dies at 33?   

Lets discuss the cross.  Many crosses are displayed having a circle in the center. The circle is on the cross of the zodiac, and represents the sun, the sun that comes up every day.  Over the ages man referred to this as the sun of god, and then it became the son of god.   

The ancient cultures of the world started their calanders in virgo, which is symbolized by the virgin.  Therefore, they said the son of god was born of a virgin.  Which simply means, born in virgo.   

We are told by Chrisitianity that Astrology is evil, and of the devil.  Any institution of authority that does not want you to look at somthing, whether it be a set of facts, or a book, must have somthing to hide.  They know the intillectual mind of the human cannot grow if it is not allowed to look at all of the facts.  It is quite obvious here that they in fact did have somthing to hide.

[Principle]

The Bible holds many Pagan beliefs, and is believed by many to be just that. You can find Paganism in most religions, because certain things were borrowed and adapted.

The Summarian Bible/Texts, are more than 400,000 years old and the story is very similar to that of Jesus Christ, and the Bible is said to have used and borrowed many of things that were written already.

Some even believe the world is in a continuous cycle of 400,000 years, 2,000 years, and 3600 years.
Meaning we are not overdue but the world is said to enter a new cycle soon. (Could be a new messiah?, The Last Days on Earth?, ETC)

And that points to the year 2012 which many other beliefs point to as well.

[Doringo]

Yes, the Bible is Christian, but Christianity is not the Bible.

[outofbodydude]

Then what is Christianity?  I know a PhD in biblical studies who is Christian and is head over heals for the bible.  What do you mean by .. christianity is not the bible.  Christianity is simply a compilation of ancient beliefs accompanied by poor story telling.  And this garbage is what Christians beleive.

[Doringo]

Christianity is the belief in the holiness of Jesus, really. You don't need to follow all the other crap in the Bible to be Christian. I would describe myself as Christian, but I've only ever read the Bible once and it was just a confusing mess of stories. Why? Because it's like a book with every second page ripped out of it. I imagine that the scripture was less nonsensical before Constantine and King James got their hands on it.

[Mydral]

Christianity is the belief in the holiness of Jesus, really.

Uhm.... thats not Christianity.... if it would be, we'd be praying to Jesus instead of God 
Its better to believe in Jesus the way Muslims do.... or the way Gnostics do.

[Principle]

Unfortunetly, Jesus Christ has been created into a Idol, and many do pray to him.
Fearing their words would not reach God enless they are through Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is not nesscarly a man to worship, he is a man to follow.

So I am not misunderstood, by a man to follow I mean to take a look at your own life,
and learn how to live it righteously.

His story, regardless if you believe it is true or not.
It's a story of Moral, and thats the point of the Bible.

[Doringo]

I never said Christ was a deity, just a person to be respected. Of course, to believe in his divine origin, messenger of God and all that, you have to believe in God too.

But you don't necessarily have to agree with some guy saying that you should kill witches, for instance.

[James S]

Sounds like the differences between the first "christian" sects to emerge - the Gnostic christians - who believed in the spirit of the teachings (or the teachings of the spirit - works both ways), and the Literalist christians, who took the writings of the time as being literal meanings instead of metaphors of spiritual guidance.

Mind you, both sects started some hundred plus years after Jesus' death, and people in those areas didn't tend to write things down much.

What we actually know as "Christianity" today is actually neither of those, though it is based on the Literalist interpretations which were politically the most favoured at the time. Emperor Constantine started Christianity as we know it today with the foundation of the first true christian church - the Church of Rome, which after the reformation in the 1500's became known as the Roman Catholic church. The word "Catholic" is from the Latin "catholicus" and literally translates as "universally accepted".

So I can accept that a christian does not need to be someone who attends church, but rather follows the teachings of Christ.
The conundrum here is that the only teachings of Jesus that we have are the product of Emperor Constantine's compilation of the bible, and what he and the Council of Nicaea decided were fit to be the teachings of Jesus.

This is why I prefer to stay away from the teachings of religions and instead meditate and go directly to the source of infinite wisdom  that each and every one of us has within us 24/7.

Blessings,
James.

[Mustardseed]

(The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible.)


Hi everybody. I rarely have time to get on the net these days but once in a while I do get to check my mail and peek at any new threads posted. Mostly I prefer to let people rant if they attack Christianity, as I accept the fact that we are not all at the same place in life and our different approaches to life, faith and beliefs vary according to who we are, what we have been taught, and what we have experienced in life. I did however read the post above and would like to comment. It is not my intent to get into any heated arguments so just take the comment for whet it is worth. It's just my 2 cents.

I read the entire post and though I agree with parts of it, it is too long to answer, it is simply too much work to research. I can however assure you that it is a very biased interpretation and not entirely correct. Basically it is a barrage of information that would take several weeks to verify or debunk. Posts like this serve their purpose, they affect people, but they are not fair and certainly do not serve the greater good i.e. that of finding the truth.

The manner and style is intimidating and insulting to say the least, and I do not foresee many Christians, be they PhD or otherwise wanting to answer it. Maybe that is what was intended!!. It is very obvious that the author is convinced that Christians (all) are a pitiful group of individuals, mindless idiots who hide in horror from the TRUTH (as he sees it), but this is so very wrong. We do not. However, we keep the faith, for as the Bible says "the preaching of the cross is to (unbelievers) foolishness but to us that are saved it is the power of God".

Those of us who believe in Christ do not need acceptance by folks like the author here, we are quite content to live our lives by the recipe of what we see written. It is true that a lot of wars have been fought in the name of Christ but so what. Those who fight wars need excuses and just because they pick Christianity as their "excuse" they do not become the spokesmen for Christianity. Unjust wars are just that... unjust wars.

Beware that you do not tear down something you do not understand and hurt people who have done you no harm my friend. The Bible (New Testament) and the account of Jesus is a testament to LOVE, and much good has been done following its teaching as well. If you are going to present a factual picture you should not forget that. If you are bent on venting your own frustrations however go ahead, you seem to be doing it with a vengeance and your irony sarcasm and name calling speaks for itself. What you fling out into the universe will return to you, if it is love you will reap love, if it is degradation and hate you will reap the same.

If you do not believe, it is your choice, and I support you in that decision, but if I choose to believe give me the freedom to do so, without attacking me and maligning me, with said slurs and biased observation.

Regards Mustardseed   

[outofbodydude]

My intention is certainly not to hurt anyone.  My only intention is to expose the truth to those who are blind to it.  I have no problem with Christians.  I have no problem with anyone of any religion.  I agree that religions promote love and good morals.  However, they have bad aspects to them along with the good aspects.  For example, relgion has caused more deaths to humans than any other force on earth.  Religions instill fear in innocent people, causing them to be afraid of doing or saying somthing that goes against their religion for fear of eternal punishment.  They present people with an idea that what they say is the truth and nothing but the truth, and it is a sin to explore futher.  Therefore, people are not able to raise their awareness, their consciousness is not able to expand and they are stuck in a state of false love and fear.

[Mustardseed]

My intention is certainly not to hurt anyone.  My only intention is to expose the truth to those who are blind to it.  I have no problem with Christians.  I have no problem with anyone of any religion.  I agree that religions promote love and good morals.  However, they have bad aspects to them along with the good aspects.  For example, relgion has caused more deaths to humans than any other force on earth.  Religions instill fear in innocent people, causing them to be afraid of doing or saying somthing that goes against their religion for fear of eternal punishment.  They present people with an idea that what they say is the truth and nothing but the truth, and it is a sin to explore futher.  Therefore, people are not able to raise their awareness, their consciousness is not able to expand and they are stuck in a state of false love and fear.

Well that might be your motive and I do applaud you for it however remember that the truth is subjective. You yourself consider, what you "know" to be "the truth" but it is infact only your opinion and research. Many of the claims you make are based on your own experiences and nothing ultimate. I am sure that you yourself would strongly resent being approached on the street and barraged with the "truth" as the fundamentalists see it. Their claims would be offensive to you. Am I right?. Muslims as well as just about every religious person on the planet, have their opinion of what the "truth" is. In my opinion such barrages is inconsistent with the goal of the AP, or even free speech, freedom of religion or what have you. It is a covert attempt to proselyte, something that would not be accepted if it was written by a Christian. The entire AP is infact to many, not only Christians, but countless others, a lie and inconsistent with their experiences and research. If you do insist on such a style I would suggest you post it on one of the many Christian apologist sites and start discussing it with folks who make it their "fight" to discuss and argue such matters. Posting it here in a forum of like minded, (that is folks who would tend to agree with you), only further cements you in your opinion and therefore will not aid you in actually examining your claims.

Christianity is not revealed as a myth by your post. Your claims are merely a footnote, a thought, and a .......claim. It is a theory and not conclusive. Now keep in mind that I do not fault you for having this belief, we all subscribe to beliefsystems, and part of believing in something includes disbelieving something too. What I do bring to your attention is  your style. Namecalling slights and the like never convinced anyone, for as you will see later in your life, you can bring a horse to water but not force him to drink, and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

All the best to you in your life

Regards Mustardseed

[Jeehad]

Jesus isn't a myth I believe Jesus received gods true Word and he taught mankind but JESUS IS NOT GOD NOR IS HE THE SON OF GOD. He is simply a teacher, whom teaches the way to live life accordingly to mankind and the decent of Jesus was mercy upon mankind. History shows us that the word in which Jesus preached has been changed and altered through ought time forming the modern version of Christianity. Muhammad received the final revelation from God forming the last religion. a religion uniting humanity to submit themselves to ONE God worthy of worship. A religion which unites humanity to view each other as brothers and sisters. This rendition of the story of Jesus is indeed compatible with history.

[Mustardseed]

Jesus isn't a myth I believe Jesus received gods true Word and he taught mankind but JESUS IS NOT GOD NOR IS HE THE SON OF GOD. He is simply a teacher, whom teaches the way to live life accordingly to mankind and the decent of Jesus was mercy upon mankind. History shows us that the word in which Jesus preached has been changed and altered through ought time forming the modern version of Christianity. Muhammad received the final revelation from God forming the last religion. a religion uniting humanity to submit themselves to ONE God worthy of worship. A religion which unites humanity to view each other as brothers and sisters. This rendition of the story of Jesus is indeed compatible with history.

Dear Jeehad

I have debated this issue with you from a few angles, yet it seems that you have chosen to believe what you have been taught, rather than actually investigating these claims by yourself. I do not fault you for this. It is s scary thing to find ones beliefsystem rattled, and many chose to hide their head in a pile of sand as the proverbial ostrich rather than accept views and facts foreign to them. I myself have had a very rough ride from fundamentalist Christian to a believing Christian.

What it comes down to is this. As humans we seem to be hardwired to certain beliefs and those of us who have integrity and who seek the truth chose to often stand up for these beliefs and challenge those who believe otherwise. Often we quote various catch phrases and teachings, only to find out that others dismiss these at the drop of a hat. This only gets our blood boiling and without actually looking further in facts and researching these alternate claims we only start talking louder. It is understandable.

However if you would bother researching your claims as seen by those who disbelieve them, actively looking for the truth with an open mind, you will be very surprised.

Life is changing all around you Jeehad and the teachers you trust may not have at their disposal the vast knowledge that is currently being assembled on the internet. Experts in every field of science scholars in every area are making their research available to everyone and what was previously, only a decade ago, not accessable to the public is indeed being posted on the net.

In the light of this I challenge you to research the claims of your opponents, rather than solidifying yourself in a previously held beliefsystem. Seek for the truth and you will find it. Thats all.

As for myself I believe in Jesus........I cannot explain why. I believe that He is real and very present yet I have come to conclude it is my FAITH and is not provable. It could have happened the way it is written and that is enough for me. We are dealing with spiritual truths here and not an exact science. This is why I reiterate that you have a belief and I also have a belief. The moment we force our beliefs on others either through manipulation (fear remorse etc) or through violence, we have strayed from the path.

I am sure you can agree that whatever our different views God has to be LOVE, he is allknowing and all seeing omnipresent and full of mercy. The creator if you will, logically cannot hate and despise his own creation. If we can agree on this I will be satisfied. If you disagree please tell me what you think God will do to those who disbelieve in the KORAN or the BIBLE. Will he destroy them? If so why not destroy them now. What do you think? It appears that Jeehad,( the small Jeehad ) advocates this view, so where does that put you.

Regards Mustardseed

Check these as well as the thousands of others

http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html

http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

[Jeehad]

Dear MustardSeed. I have read EVERY SINGLE contradicting claims to the holy Quran. I have SPOKEN TO MANY PASTORS whom try to debunk Islamic views or angles of look at things and let me tell you EVERY SINGLE contradiction is simply a manner of misunderstandings. Do not tell me I am rattled because of what I believe or have not seen "truth." I can assure you I've studies such matters, ive studied religions and such things as spiritual or agnostic beliefs of other people and let me tell you my dear dear brother Islam stands the most logical way of living life. EVERYTHING in which the Holy Quran says is compatible with science, and your so called "contradictions"(which you need other websites or articles to debunk ^.- are simply misunderstanding). I can take one word of what you have said and imply hat it is your main central point of your entier posts which is what the people whom create these contradictions do. The point is, Allah sbwt is telling you a story in the Quran, one which you may learn about and you cannot conclude that a verse is a contradiction or error without eeadin the entire chapter to fully understand something.In arabic grammer awe also have words which have various meanings. We can tell what the meaning is by seeing other verses which use the same meaning and see if it seems logical(also we can check some of the authentic hadiths to explain the meaning of the verses). In retrospect, the people whom create these contradictions DONT take these things into account. Believe me my brother, EVERY SINGLE SO CALLED ERROR is a misunderstanding, and even many other religious people conclude that the Quran is indeed a perfect revelation without any error. Please, find me one error which CANNOT BE EXPLAINED? You cannot and this challenge I proposed to you is a challenge Allah sbwt proposes to humanity. God is love God is mercy God is compassion God is the creator God is the just God is the most wise. In islam, we have something known as the 99 names of God which explain the almighty creators attributes. LOVE is a name of his attributes MERCY is a name of his attributes and even a name for Allah sbwt which we call upon to express our love to him. Read the intelligent design theory which was released by scientists a couple of years ago. The theory itself states many differnt angles stating THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIFE TO HAVE BEEN CREATED WITHOUT AN INTELLIGENT DESIGN TO HAVE INTERVENED IN IT. Allah sbwt says in the holy Quran that he is the originator of the heavens and earth, he also says " Verily we have split the universe asunder and bound it together" he then says "Then he made the universe into a mas of smoke" then he says "Oh mankind it is we who have constructed the universe with might and surely we are steadily expanding it"

Summarizing the most accepted theory for the universe coming into existence, it states that the universe was first a sum of quarks and particles which were colliding with one another releasing bounds of energy these particles formed different masses of matter everywhere, eventually a force(we now know as gravity) bound all these masses together into one MASSIVE MASS known as the universe, scientists say that this mass was simply a mass of dust and smoke billions of years of expansion and collection of these smoke particles through gravity formed planets and stars forming what we now know as the "universe." Can you not see the Quran CLEARLY states this? Allah sbwt SHOWS YOU how he created life in stages. Also, one thing you must understand is if God said in the Quran THE UNIVERSE WAS THE SHAPE OF A DUCK, do you think scientists nowadays will believe in it? Now put yourself in the shoes of people thousands of years ago whom first heard the quran, if allah clearly goes out telling people in depthly about creation the typical arab man would not agree with it because there own "scientific" beliefs are contrary to what the Quran will say even though thousands of years later the quran will be proven.

Now that I explained God is indeed real! I will tell you about the mercy of Allah sbwt   you see my brother, for me to tell you everyone who disbelieves in the holy Quran  is going to hell or YOUR GOING TO HELL is ABSOLUTELY against my own religion. Allah sbwt tells us that it is he who judges mankind NOT MAN WHO JUDGES MAN. God judges man by his intentions and the depths of mans hearts.   I don't see why you disagree with Islamic justice... I mean, don't you think raping is terrible? Or murder is terrible? giving poor is the way of the pious man? Helping another brother or sister is something which we all need to perform? Uniting together? Spreading peace and harmony? Allah sbwt says in the Quran "He has created you in groups so you may learn to live among eachother" also, speaking about other peoples beliefs he says " Come to common grounds with them" THE BEST WAY TO UNITE people of other beliefs it simply to come to common grounds with them show similarities of one another.

The mercy if allah:

"Whoever is not merciful towards people, will not be treated mercifully by Allah."

"...And My mercy embraces all things..."

"And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favor and kindness from Him."

"...Those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds..."


Allahs mercy is witness to his own glorification. In fact Allah sbwt punishes those who are unjust and disbelieve in him. My brother, This life was created as a test for humanity, for us to learn from. Allah sbwt created sin in order for man to learn from his sin and turn to his path and this is a natural part of our creation. We have all had those moments of reality where your real to yourself and those who perform horrific sins encounter these realities about themselves. I mean the alcoholic eventually digs himself a hole which is a sign from allah sbwt showing the alcoholic the effects of alcohol and in retrospect helping him turn to his path. I have come here to deliver the message to you and it is your choice to accept and reject it but only Allah knows what is my path in the hereafter and what is yours  I hope I helped explain your questions. If you accept Allah as ONE GOD, if you love humanity, if you give to the poor,respect your brothers and sisters, then my brother you are a one who submitts himself to the will of allah sbwt(a muslim) this is the entire message of Islm. We don;t ask you to go outside and bomb yourself, or to beat yourself, or to shave your head.. We ask you to simply embrace love for your people and your own lord.


I hope I answered your questions.

Peace and blessings be upon you.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Jeehad

Ok then, we will leave it at this. As I said before a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile. Thats ok with me. A few points comes to mind though that shows me that you have a great disdain for views other than your own. Firstly you seem to put me down for using articles found on the net in my argumentation. Yet you yourself use the very same. Books and exhortations from youtube etc. Much to my surprise you seem to feel that your points are more valid since you have read books and studied the subject. Thats is what the net provides. This is my point exactly. The net is a big place and much information can be found there, it is no longer needed for one to be a scholar in order to debate.

In any case my view is, that one can prove or disprove any subject from global warming to scientific prophesies and doctrines in the Koran, by researching the net. If however one chooses to only use the points in support to ones opinion, instead of researching the opposite point, one is bound to further cement ones belief.

Faith is to me just that..... FAITH. You have mentioned nothing that is not challenged by others, you only choose to believe certain arguments and I choose the opposite. Thats all. Any further discussion is pointless. You may barrage me with further discourses and added arguments only proving to me that your mind is made up . This is then no longer a sincere discussion by 2 seekers of truth, but rather a sort of mental aggression and condescending argument and attitude of one, who sees himself as a teacher, who with his version of the TRUTH, shows of his own superiority. One who thinks that he has read EVERY SINGLE argument who knows all there is to know, is a know-it-all. You nolonger seek truth but you preach what you see as the TRUTH, and we have nothing in common.

Peace to you as well

Regards Mustardseed

Regards Mustardseed   

[Jeehad]

Well I'm going to leave it at that as well but you do realize that theres a difference between simply posting something without an explanation from your own words or at least providing arguments which seem logical rather then posting something which you have no knowledge about because you simply FOUND it on the internet. Your dealing with a subject which you have proven to me to be beyond your limit of knowledge which is why you have absolutely no right to tell me to reconcile my opinions. Just because they disagree with yours does not mean that I am "confused" or mislead because I can assure you otherwise. You denied the claims I make which gives me a right to respond.

Thanks anyways.

[Goober]

Hi Jeehad

Ok then, we will leave it at this. As I said before a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile.

Are you not even listening to him? It's like you telling Stephen Hawking that he doesn't know about black holes, when he obviously does. Stop avoiding the points he is making in the hope of saving face over an internet forum where you don't even know him.

Thats ok with me. A few points comes to mind though that shows me that you have a great disdain for views other than your own. Firstly you seem to put me down for using articles found on the net in my argumentation.

  Because he says he has seen all those articles, and he has debunked them. Present him with something worthy of reading and I guarantee he will not shun it like some mindless zealot you make him out to be.

Yet you yourself use the very same. Books and exhortations from youtube etc.

  Because the things he is getting off of the internet have not been debunked as of now. And as far as we know are valid for his arguments.

Much to my surprise you seem to feel that your points are more valid since you have read books and studied the subject.

  If someone knows more about a subject, I think I would rather trust their opinion than someone who knows next to nothing.

Thats is what the net provides. This is my point exactly. The net is a big place and much information can be found there, it is no longer needed for one to be a scholar in order to debate.

  All of the information on the net is not true, as you seem to make it out as being.

In any case my view is, that one can prove or disprove any subject from global warming to scientific prophesies and doctrines in the Koran, by researching the net.

  Actually, it depends on how gullible you are.

If however one chooses to only use the points in support to ones opinion, instead of researching the opposite point, one is bound to further cement ones belief.

  That's true... but why did you add it into your paragraph? It had nothing to do with Jeehad's views.

Faith is to me just that..... FAITH.

Faith to you seems to be ignorance, not truly faith. When a scientist forms a hypothesis, he has faith that he will be correct. He has something he is basing it upon, rather than just a "feeling". If I choose to be illogical and irrational due to the concept that my views are right because it has been pounded into me as a child, then I don't have faith. I'm just stupid.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Goober
Thanks for the suggestions but I will pass at that one. My aim was not to change this mans faith, and  have no desire to win anything. My desire and intent was to draw to his attention to the fact, that for every claim he makes some learned person outthere has made a counterclaim. If he really want to investigate these claims, all he has to do is google it. This is to me no clever debating forum where the one who spends the most time on the subject at hand, and uses the quickest responces best wit etc wins the debate.

I stated that FAITH is just that FAITH. It is Jeehads belief that he can PROVE the existence of God, and the prophetic nature of Muhammad THROUGH SCIENCE. A claim that is often made throughout the Islamic world. This is one of the most widely used phrases and appeals immensely to the illiterate and poorly educated millions of Muslims. It is a very powerfull claim, yet it does not stand up to scrutiny in a modern western world. Take fx the Surah 36:36 about being made in pairs. I have sat in conversion with Mullahs from a small village in Pakistan, who made this very same claim. When confronted with the counterclaim they refused to believe that there was any such thing as a hermaphrodite, sticking to their story that "everything is made in pairs" . These people speak for the masses of Muslims, and preach every Friday in the Mosque that Islam is a Scientific faith. This puts Muslims in the west in a very odd situation. In order to PROVE their point they then have to get so complicated and use the most ridiculous far flung scientific theories, and when they get real desperate they say somethink like this........

(Jeehad)
There might be other explanations to this verse that we still have not thought about, or don't know about yet.  Our knowledge today will not be similar to the knowledge we will have in the future.  Of course, scientists, including physicists, are still doing a lot of research, and in the future, God willing, this verse will be fully explained in the light of our then newly acquired knowledge.  ............................. So, it could possibly take another 100 years, 1400 years, or maybe more, before this verse is fully understood.

end quote

This is to me obviously choosing to BELIEVE, it is an obvious display of a very clear intent to stay BELIEVING hoping that if things are not proved now they WILL BE someday in the future.

In my opinion it is clear that those who wrote the Koran did indeed believe that everything was made in  pairs, this is in the Bible as well. The far flung explanations is in my opinion only "cutting a toe or heel to make the shoe fit". However, as I said before since he chooses to stay firm on his FAITH I will rest my case. I do not think he is openminded nor that he will read and research with the TRUTH in mind but rather that he will Choose to read what supports his preconceived opinion. Thats all. In any case ....no harm done, and no problem with me. He is not alone in this millions of Christians and Muslims do the same. Those who can see through this, will do so and those who chose to agree with him will do so as well.

Regards Mustardseed

[Ryuji]

Mustardseed:

thanx for you posts you have change my way of which i deal with people where things such as religion is at hand. i have seen my error - and i know that i was wrong the times i pressed my 'truth' onto each them 'blind' people.

i must applaud you

even if i don't share the same believes you seem to have more levels than me in live in certian areas

peace and love
RJT

[Jeehad]

Hi Goober
Thanks for the suggestions but I will pass at that one. My aim was not to change this mans faith, and  have no desire to win anything. My desire and intent was to draw to his attention to the fact, that for every claim he makes some learned person outthere has made a counterclaim. If he really want to investigate these claims, all he has to do is google it. This is to me no clever debating forum where the one who spends the most time on the subject at hand, and uses the quickest responces best wit etc wins the debate.

I stated that FAITH is just that FAITH. It is Jeehads belief that he can PROVE the existence of God, and the prophetic nature of Muhammad THROUGH SCIENCE. A claim that is often made throughout the Islamic world. This is one of the most widely used phrases and appeals immensely to the illiterate and poorly educated millions of Muslims. It is a very powerfull claim, yet it does not stand up to scrutiny in a modern western world. Take fx the Surah 36:36 about being made in pairs. I have sat in conversion with Mullahs from a small village in Pakistan, who made this very same claim. When confronted with the counterclaim they refused to believe that there was any such thing as a hermaphrodite, sticking to their story that "everything is made in pairs" . These people speak for the masses of Muslims, and preach every Friday in the Mosque that Islam is a Scientific faith. This puts Muslims in the west in a very odd situation. In order to PROVE their point they then have to get so complicated and use the most ridiculous far flung scientific theories, and when they get real desperate they say somethink like this........

(Jeehad)
There might be other explanations to this verse that we still have not thought about, or don't know about yet.  Our knowledge today will not be similar to the knowledge we will have in the future.  Of course, scientists, including physicists, are still doing a lot of research, and in the future, God willing, this verse will be fully explained in the light of our then newly acquired knowledge.  ............................. So, it could possibly take another 100 years, 1400 years, or maybe more, before this verse is fully understood.

end quote

This is to me obviously choosing to BELIEVE, it is an obvious display of a very clear intent to stay BELIEVING hoping that if things are not proved now they WILL BE someday in the future.

In my opinion it is clear that those who wrote the Koran did indeed believe that everything was made in  pairs, this is in the Bible as well. The far flung explanations is in my opinion only "cutting a toe or heel to make the shoe fit". However, as I said before since he chooses to stay firm on his FAITH I will rest my case. I do not think he is openminded nor that he will read and research with the TRUTH in mind but rather that he will Choose to read what supports his preconceived opinion. Thats all. In any case ....no harm done, and no problem with me. He is not alone in this millions of Christians and Muslims do the same. Those who can see through this, will do so and those who chose to agree with him will do so as well.

Regards Mustardseed

Salam ou alakoum, First of all you say that learned people have made counter claims about my verses which I have procided, but the fact is that ONLY YOU ARE THE ONE who is simply posting "cunter claims" which I epxlain to you justily. Why can't you respond after I explain a verse which you claim is a contradiction? the only reason which seems to be plausable is you HAVE no knowledge upon the matter thus you leave it up to the google search to try and contradict the Quran. First of all, you ask me to proev Islam to you but show me where your proof lies that astral projectione ven exists(I do believe in it)? Or prove to me that your faith is true?  Faith alone is blidn that is why along with faith comes logic and this si the true essence of belief. You canot believe something which is illogical. Secondly, the verse stating that we were all made in pairs is something which you haev confused yourself about. God is stressing an important point that EVERYTHING IS MADE IN PAIRS not ALL LIVING THINGS but EVERY particle IN THIS UNIVEIRSE IS MADE WITH A PAIR. Dealing qith quantum emchanics and looking at the pair structure of an atom you will notice that indeed this is a true statement. You fail to realise an important point, these sceitnifical verses taken from the Quran were NOT TAKEN ONE DAY FROM A "MULLA" as you call it. But actual SCIENTISTS mostly non muslims have actually analyzed these verses have written reports on them.  You can say Oh its just taking the verse out of context or even a coincidence but lets be real here, the Quran withholds THOUSANDS of verses which can be proven scietnifically? Are they really all a coincidence? Are they all taken otu fo context?

Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists  "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."

"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]


"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]

"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.

"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."[1]

uthor of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.

"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."

"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...

I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..." [1]

Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh  cAbdul-Majeed  A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and  Hadith which he studied and commented upon.

Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."

"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...

If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago." [1]



Its the fact that the Quran is aknowledged by scientists worldwide for describing scientific incidences which is phenomenal. You are such a hypocrit mustardseed, you claim that I am blind and that I along with many
other do not understand my own religion. Mustardseed PLEASE, I am very learned In Islam do not dictate my own religion and language to me.

Mustardseed
"a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile"
 

Oh so you are nto convinced of your own will? So you believe in nothing? Can't you see the hypocricy in your statements..


Mustardseed
"You have mentioned nothing that is not challenged by others, you only choose to believe certain arguments and I choose the opposite."

When you say "challenged by others" that gives me the same right to say well yeh Islam is agreed upon by billions of people so thats why you should revert. Its also dischalenged by others as well, its funny how YOU yourself cant challenge any of these verses or even respond to a explanation I have posted.

[Mustardseed]

My dear Jeehad

Well I am very sorry that you seem to get so upset. I stated my point and will leave it at that. For your information I do believe in the Bible, and tho I cannot prove it as being the Truth of God, and tho it does seem to at times be very illogical, I still BELIEVE in it and do not see that as a problem.

As for using Goggle to research matters, this is something I have never hidden, on the contrary I stated very openly this very fact as a support of my claim, regarding the availability of knowledge on the subject at hand. You however state that your knowledge comes from some other source and call me a hypocrite. Well I was wondering about that and blocked out the following paregraph from your post

This paragraph is not indicated to be a quote but seem to be your words and your superior knowledge as a learned scholar. After blocking out the text below I pasted it into Goggle and below it you can see what I found. It appears that you yourself use sources from the net to bolster your claims.....gotcha


Here is what I blocked out

Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honored by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists  "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."


This is what came up

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2005-44,GGLR:en&q=Dr%2e+Moore+was+a+former+President+of+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists%2c+and+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists%2e+He+was+honoured+by+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists+with+the+prestigious+J%2eC%2eB%2e+Grant+Award+and+in+1994+he+received+the+Honoured+Member+Award+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists++%22for+outstanding+contributions+to+the+field+of+clinical+anatomy%2e%22



Anyway it seems that our conversation is escalating into agression, and that you are very close to boiling point.....sorry about that. You yourself seem to either be very young or rather naive , but what the heck, I am no Einstein either. 

There is a lot of stuf out there isn't there, enough that the most ignorant can appear smart, and the fanatic can appear very balanced, it is all just words Jeehad and as my tag says "Words....there was a time I believed in words".

Regards Mustardseed

PS I never claimed to have proof that OBEs are "real" I dont know where you got that one.

[Jeehad]

My dear msutardseed I have nothing agsint doign research on google. What I am accusing you of is simply posting something without your own consent ot explanation. You will notice I provide my own writings with proof from the internet to back up my claims. Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it. MustardSeed, I believe that the bible was a step unto the formation of the Holy Quran. JEsus preached a message known as the injeel(good news) which we as muslims MUST BELIEVE.Although, history prooevs to us that the bible has been chanegd and altered. The Quran comes down asa  revelation from God almighty to seal all the religions.The final conclusion unto mankind. Uniting humanity to worship One true God, the God of abraham. Regarding man as equal beings(including the prophets). Islam is the total submission of ones will to the almighty lord. I was also using an OBE as an example of "proof" for everyone else I never claimed your belief in it. Words are the essence of communication, and the only form of preservation. Take a look at this video of a Quranic reciation;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ivk7NoXxUA

You will find 5 scientifical and predicting verses in this chapter. The whole point of the chapter is to prove Gods existence; God is giving you a point and saying how could you deny me now?As if hes trying to proev something. Isn't it significant that 5 verses in this chapter all are documented by scientists? All in a chapter which was meant to prove a point to humanity? This chapter holds the most scientifical and predicting verses in the Holy quran ^.- 

[Mustardseed]

My dear msutardseed I have nothing agsint doign research on google. What I am accusing you of is simply posting something without your own consent ot explanation. You will notice I provide my own writings with proof from the internet to back up my claims. Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it. MustardSeed, I believe that the bible was a step unto the formation of the Holy Quran. JEsus preached a message known as the injeel(good news) which we as muslims MUST BELIEVE.Although, history prooevs to us that the bible has been chanegd and altered. The Quran comes down asa  revelation from God almighty to seal all the religions.The final conclusion unto mankind. Uniting humanity to worship One true God, the God of abraham. Regarding man as equal beings(including the prophets). Islam is the total submission of ones will to the almighty lord. I was also using an OBE as an example of "proof" for everyone else I never claimed your belief in it. Words are the essence of communication, and the only form of preservation. Take a look at this video of a Quranic reciation;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ivk7NoXxUA

You will find 5 scientifical and predicting verses in this chapter. The whole point of the chapter is to prove Gods existence; God is giving you a point and saying how could you deny me now?As if hes trying to proev something. Isn't it significant that 5 verses in this chapter all are documented by scientists? All in a chapter which was meant to prove a point to humanity? This chapter holds the most scientifical and predicting verses in the Holy quran ^.- 

Dear Jeehad
Please do not degrade this to the usual rant and rave kind of discussion. The way you talk about me is not only incorrect but rather rude. As I said I know a lot about the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad. Maybe not as much as you do, but then again I am not from where you are, and have not had the opportunity to be taught as you have. To quote me as having the attitude as you say above ..............

" Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it,"..............is wrong.

It is also not respectful and as you know respect is a Islamic duty and a trait you should try your best to emulate. In my opinion you are very sincere but sincerely wrong. What is disturbing is this. Folks like you who are brought up the way you are, and who are indoctrinated so effectively, become the very curse of your own cause. In their zealous yet frustrated efforts to "save" the unbelievers and spread their "righteous" cause, they grow increasingly more aggressive. After the big Jeehad the small Jeehad in often quite a logical step.

As far as I see it your religion supports violence as a means of retaliation and aggression against any PRECIEVED threat. Mohamed was a very violent man, and conversion by the sword is a big part of Islam. Osama Bin Laden is actually a very faithful Muslim, and he knows his Koran. Many follow his teachings as they cannot deny their validity and the result is violence and death.

Maybe you will say Bush is doing the same but I think it is evident that Jesus said to his followers, to "Love your enemies do good to them that hate you and pray for them that dispitefully abuse you".

Your link to the Koran recital was pretty silly in my opinion, at least being used in this discussion. It proved nothing and only sways the illiterate uneducated masses in various Muslim countries, with pretty words, causing them to get all wrapped up in this mind-numbing romantisism, that is so typical for that type of discourse. I have sat through plenty.

Regards Mustardseed

PS Do us all and yourself a favour and use the spell check feature. It is evident that you are not a native English speaker, your lack of knowledge of grammar detracts greatly from your posts, and you are not doing yourself a favour.



Regards Mustardseed

[Jeehad]

Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.


Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."

Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."



2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.

Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."

Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces,  and their pregnant women ripped open.

OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.


Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam.

Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.

In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".

How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT)

    "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" (18:29)

Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth.

    "We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended" (17:105)

    "Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth" (27:79)

Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous khutbah [friday sermon] that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.

The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?

First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows:

    "Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."

The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said:

    "The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."

Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, Salah [prayer] has been described as follows by Sir Arnold:

    "The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected."

Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the Juma'a prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of Juma'a prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.

In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, Zakah [alms tax distributed to the poor], Hajj [pilgrimage to Makkah], Siyam [fasting in Ramadan], have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of Zakah. The genius of Hajj and Siyam has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.

A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following:

    "Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."

The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the present day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam:

    "Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind".

The she went on to say:

    "Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."

Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentals of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words:

    "This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."

My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says:

    "In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."

Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said:

    "The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."